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  1. #1

    Fix or deactivate draigoch

    There's many more posts on the forum reporting or complaining about bugs in the Draigoch Lair instance. I want all the players to see how far back these complaints go, and how nothing, nothing has been done to address the issues. You know those feelings of frustration you feel when it bugs out on you? Turbine apparently doesn't care. Why on earth would a company put out a defective product and cause their customers' frustration? Then leave it there?!

    I'm bringing Draigoch to the forefront of the forum. For those of you who want it fixed, join with me. Those of you that want to waste your time "chancing" a run, then don't.

    Now Turbine has another "Known Issue," the frustration of its customers for having a junk instance that bugs out most of the time.

  2. #2
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    Draig is a boring fight and didnt even give a scratch to the Elite endgame raiders (Who are now probably gone from Lotro). If they are focusing on fixing the old &&&& how bored do you think you will be at the end of it all. Bring out a raid that has depth like the Rift/Balrog and forget about fixing the old stuff that has been killed for 3-6 years already. Maybe with the new Hobbit movie and the expansion they would think to bring out a decent raid to keep the seasonal players interested in staying.... just my thoughts.

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alleyman View Post
    There's many more posts on the forum reporting or complaining about bugs in the Draigoch Lair instance.
    for a start. making a thread or complaining to a GM is not reporting a bug. there is a whole bug report feature that saves multiple information for them to help fix it. if you havn't done this, you are in effect letting the bug slip.

    here is a link about the /bug feature
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...Reporting-Tool

    I want all the players to see how far back these complaints go, and how nothing, nothing has been done to address the issues.
    there are also been multiple attempts to fix the bug. and thats not including the period where this instance cluster might have been held back to fix other bugs the QA/palantir/bullroarer people found

    You know those feelings of frustration you feel when it bugs out on you? Turbine apparently doesn't care.
    there is no evidence on that. just horrible assumptions.

    Why on earth would a company put out a defective product and cause their customers' frustration? Then leave it there?!
    for many reasons. money, time usally the core of it. this probably comes under both. they could stop all other development of projects just to fix that bug. they might waste development money and time to fix a bug that could be better spent elseware.

    a game will never be bug free. and mmo's are some of the worst. it's in there nature to progress though, they can't spend years trying to fix every single bug as there would be little new content and longevity of the game slashed. in really could be as simple as "do you want Great River update, or draigoch fixed?" I'll think you'll lie with your answer just to prove a point...

    I'm bringing Draigoch to the forefront of the forum. For those of you who want it fixed, join with me. Those of you that want to waste your time "chancing" a run, then don't.
    very very late...

    this has been a "known issue" since it's release now.

    management in games suck. suck hardcore. anyone who has worked in the gaming industry know how &&&&&& time management is and how they NEED to get content out. if your not familer with "Team Bondi" you really should look it up. 1 game, 8 years, terrible work conditions, constant crunch times, company sold all it's assests and went bankrupt. and tha game wasn't even as good as it could have been...

    are you more happy turbine are still making lotro? or still seriously bummed out it has a few bugs?

    again, I think your answer will be a lie just to prove your point... I wait to see your responce...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankj45 View Post
    Draig is a boring fight and didnt even give a scratch to the Elite endgame raiders (Who are now probably gone from Lotro). If they are focusing on fixing the old &&&& how bored do you think you will be at the end of it all. Bring out a raid that has depth like the Rift/Balrog and forget about fixing the old stuff that has been killed for 3-6 years already. Maybe with the new Hobbit movie and the expansion they would think to bring out a decent raid to keep the seasonal players interested in staying.... just my thoughts.
    I think many people would rather see new raids come out, or even done well revamps of old raids (current ones are too easy and broken imo)
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    for a start. making a thread or complaining to a GM is not reporting a bug. there is a whole bug report feature that saves multiple information for them to help fix it. if you havn't done this, you are in effect letting the bug slip.

    here is a link about the /bug feature
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...Reporting-Tool


    there are also been multiple attempts to fix the bug. and thats not including the period where this instance cluster might have been held back to fix other bugs the QA/palantir/bullroarer people found


    there is no evidence on that. just horrible assumptions.


    for many reasons. money, time usally the core of it. this probably comes under both. they could stop all other development of projects just to fix that bug. they might waste development money and time to fix a bug that could be better spent elseware.

    a game will never be bug free. and mmo's are some of the worst. it's in there nature to progress though, they can't spend years trying to fix every single bug as there would be little new content and longevity of the game slashed. in really could be as simple as "do you want Great River update, or draigoch fixed?" I'll think you'll lie with your answer just to prove a point...


    very very late...

    this has been a "known issue" since it's release now.

    management in games suck. suck hardcore. anyone who has worked in the gaming industry know how &&&&&& time management is and how they NEED to get content out. if your not familer with "Team Bondi" you really should look it up. 1 game, 8 years, terrible work conditions, constant crunch times, company sold all it's assests and went bankrupt. and tha game wasn't even as good as it could have been...

    are you more happy turbine are still making lotro? or still seriously bummed out it has a few bugs?

    again, I think your answer will be a lie just to prove your point... I wait to see your responce...


    I think many people would rather see new raids come out, or even done well revamps of old raids (current ones are too easy and broken imo)
    Hey, if you want buggy instances left active, then do your own posted praising them....If Turbine is going to leave it active, then I want it fixed, PERIOD. Who doesn't want new stuff, btw? We all do. However, I want stuff that works. If the new stuff comes out and it's buggy, should we not complain about it too? See, people complained about Draigoch for months....years now and it never got fixed. So, if I go with your logic, then none of us should report anything or call Turbine out on it....cause it would take resources away from up and coming buggy instances...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    there are also been multiple attempts to fix the bug. and thats not including the period where this instance cluster might have been held back to fix other bugs the QA/palantir/bullroarer people found


    there is no evidence on that. just horrible assumptions.


    for many reasons. money, time usally the core of it. this probably comes under both. they could stop all other development of projects just to fix that bug. they might waste development money and time to fix a bug that could be better spent elseware.

    a game will never be bug free. and mmo's are some of the worst. it's in there nature to progress though, they can't spend years trying to fix every single bug as there would be little new content and longevity of the game slashed. in really could be as simple as "do you want Great River update, or draigoch fixed?" I'll think you'll lie with your answer just to prove a point...

    There is evidence and it's on the forums. It is not horrible assumptions as you try to state. For every post on the forum, I bet there were dozens that didn't post....statistics would support the assumption, would it not?! I know there are going to be some issues with the periodic bug. However, I'm not going to accept bugs that go unfixed for months and years now....and the instance be UP and ACTIVE. Again, with your logic, we just accept poor coding, lots of bugs, and wait for the next expansion/update and the next new set of bugs....that they'll put off fixing cause they are working on the next expansion/update....etc.

  6. #6
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    /signed
    Remember that Draigoch costed 1250TP (and probably still costs) itself and you have to be lucky due to bugs to finish it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by marmi View Post
    /signed
    Remember that Draigoch costed 1250TP (and probably still costs) itself and you have to be lucky due to bugs to finish it.
    RIGHT THERE is reason enough to complain about the Draigoch Lair raid. People PAID for it. People wasted money on a poorly coded instance that is getting buggier and buggier.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alleyman View Post
    There is evidence and it's on the forums.
    again, forums do not equal bug reports.

    I'm not going to accept bugs that go unfixed for months and years now
    it's regular practice to leave a bug if:
    - not enough information on how the bug works
    - takes too long / costs too much to fix
    - not severe enough.

    first point, this bug probably has had it's fair few bug reports. but I bet 90% of those people did not report a bug and just assumed a ticket sent was enough. it wasn't. have you bugged it properly?

    as mentioned, it's been tried to be fixed multiple times. they have probably given this more time than either of us expect and clearly, havn't fixed it.

    lets not lie about this, but it isn't every single time this happends. I've easily got 50+ runs completed on my skirmish information panal on the instances on my burg alone so it's clearly working to some extent. I can recall seeing this at least 6 times and maybe as much as 10 times in total. it also isn't like flight (which needed to be took down) as that was completely stopping people from playing the game if it bugged out.

    with your logic, we just accept poor coding, lots of bugs
    to put it very, very, very bluntly. yes.

    however thats ignoring how you could of gone though the proper routes to report your bug. ignoring the fact that they do fix older bugs in instances (we've seen many fixes to old instances that are rarely run now).

    if the bug can't be fixed without excessive cost and time, they just arn't going to go out of there way too much to fix it. if you really believe closing whole sections of the game that have bugs is a better system than letting it, we would of never got draicoch, which is much worse than getting it buggy. we might as well close the game completely because some players get complete game crashes.
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  9. #9
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    About Draigoch...

    I ran this raid every single week from the date it was released until the Rohan expansion launched a year later. In all that time, I had it bug out 2-3 times total. This was not a static group, although most of us would play together often. Other than that, we had new people in and out week after week. And the only time we ever had anti-exploit trouble was when people were trying to do things against the intentional design of the instance (tanking the head without taking damage, for example).

    I don't say this to discredit those who do have troubles with it. I have no doubt that there are people that constantly have the instance bug out on them. I say it because every time I hear about Draigoch bugging out, I wonder what it is that the group is doing that I did differently. Why do some have such trouble with Draigoch bugging out, while others such as myself can run it 50 times straight and never have a single problem.

    I've heard a lot of rumors as to why the instance might bug out. There was only one that held any weight, and I think it actually confirmed by a Dev on the forums at one point, although I might be wrong about that. I don't remember the exact specifics, but it had something to do with a combination of a Loremaster skill or buff and a Burglar skill. Perhaps someone else with more knowledge can help confirm or verify the thread for me.

    So my advice? If you don't want it to bug, don't bring a Loremaster. If you have to have one, inform the Loremaster only to use attacks and/or contribute to FMs. Steer clear of buffs like Wind Lore, or attacks like Sticky Gourd (I can't out why, but Sticky Gourd for some reason sticks out in my mind as being the potential cause of this bug). Of course, this might not be the reason for it bugging at all, but it's always the one that I thought sounded like the genuine cause of the bug.
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  10. #10
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    lore-master pets, anyone stunning the arms/legs, RK stones, aoe hotspots of any kind. those are the myths I've been told cause it to bug

    pets and stones being the big ones. it really was as soon as the pet died, it would bug out. it's not that hard to know just not to use them. I'm wondering if they could just gray out those skills in the instance (like moors DF) so that does lessen the chance to bug it out.
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  11. #11
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    All this talk about don't bring this or that Class, don't use this or that Skill, don't use Pets/Rocks/Banners is just a bunch of Poppycock. The one constant that has always been true is to kill the Beast in under 40 minutes. For whatever reason, the chances of the instance bugging out go way up if you take longer than 40 minutes.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeauxLOTR View Post
    All this talk about don't bring this or that Class, don't use this or that Skill, don't use Pets/Rocks/Banners is just a bunch of Poppycock. The one constant that has always been true is to kill the Beast in under 40 minutes. For whatever reason, the chances of the instance bugging out go way up if you take longer than 40 minutes.
    see! I didn't know that! did you bug it?

    it really could be that simple as one person who didn't share there experience, could be a wealth of information to the QA team to fix it.

    but tbh I'm sure I've done it under 40mins (killing all 4 feet/arms before he moves) and he's not bugged a lot of times. that could be that some skills are in bad time slots for animations to happen, so that could be both dps and certain skills then.
    Last edited by bohbashum; Jul 27 2013 at 05:43 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    see! I didn't know that! did you bug it?

    it really could be that simple as one person who didn't share there experience, could be a wealth of information to the QA team to fix it.

    but tbh I'm sure I've done it under 40mins (killing all 4 feet/arms before he moves) and he's not bugged a lot of times. that could be that some skills are in bad time slots for animations to happen, so that could be both dps and certain skills then.
    Yes, always bugged it. I'm sure there is something wrong with animations in the last phase, but all we players can do is kill it as fast as possible - the rest of the problems are out of our control.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JeauxLOTR View Post
    All this talk about don't bring this or that Class, don't use this or that Skill, don't use Pets/Rocks/Banners is just a bunch of Poppycock. The one constant that has always been true is to kill the Beast in under 40 minutes. For whatever reason, the chances of the instance bugging out go way up if you take longer than 40 minutes.
    We were doing it pretty fast, considering that we had to locate the invisible paws and head....because there was an animation bug that had nothing to do with defeating it under 40 minutes.....

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    again, forums do not equal bug reports.


    it's regular practice to leave a bug if:
    - not enough information on how the bug works
    - takes too long / costs too much to fix
    - not severe enough.

    first point, this bug probably has had it's fair few bug reports. but I bet 90% of those people did not report a bug and just assumed a ticket sent was enough. it wasn't. have you bugged it properly?

    as mentioned, it's been tried to be fixed multiple times. they have probably given this more time than either of us expect and clearly, havn't fixed it.

    lets not lie about this, but it isn't every single time this happends. I've easily got 50+ runs completed on my skirmish information panal on the instances on my burg alone so it's clearly working to some extent. I can recall seeing this at least 6 times and maybe as much as 10 times in total. it also isn't like flight (which needed to be took down) as that was completely stopping people from playing the game if it bugged out.


    to put it very, very, very bluntly. yes.

    however thats ignoring how you could of gone though the proper routes to report your bug. ignoring the fact that they do fix older bugs in instances (we've seen many fixes to old instances that are rarely run now).

    if the bug can't be fixed without excessive cost and time, they just arn't going to go out of there way too much to fix it. if you really believe closing whole sections of the game that have bugs is a better system than letting it, we would of never got draicoch, which is much worse than getting it buggy. we might as well close the game completely because some players get complete game crashes.
    Bo, all you got are excuses for shoddy programing and shoddy customer service. Turbine has received enough bug reports and enough forums post to figure out that Draigoch's Lair is JUNK and needs to be either deactivated or fixed. Period. I don't want to read excuses, I want solutions. Having a bug or two throughout the game is understandable. I remember Turbine doing hot fixes and such all the time to address issues. However, they are selling Draigoch's Lair in an expansion or quest pack. They have had complaints concerning it for a very long time and the instance is apparently getting more unstable. Again, No excuses. Fix it or deactivate it.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alleyman View Post
    Bo, all you got are excuses for shoddy programing and shoddy customer service
    in the time constraints I bet there under, and the amount of content and updates this games gets. it's not shoddy programming at all. you either don't understand much about how programmers/programming/developing works or your very quick to judge.

    it can be a little as one line of code that can be bad to break a game. 1 line out of millions. bug fixing is a harder job than making the game at times. it is very very common place to send out a broken game or segment of the game that doesn't stop gamplay ALWAYS. if it's still playable, it's better than not being there.

    Turbine has received enough bug reports and enough forums post
    you have no evidence of that. clearly, as it's not fixed...

    No excuses. Fix it or deactivate it.
    why is it so liner to you?

    why can't it stay out on the known bugs list?

    why is that seriously not an option to you?

    and whats to say that there not trying to fix it still. QA team have said before they read ALL bug reports and file them. so if they keep seeing them and see something new, there going to test it.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    in the time constraints I bet there under, and the amount of content and updates this games gets. it's not shoddy programming at all. you either don't understand much about how programmers/programming/developing works or your very quick to judge.

    it can be a little as one line of code that can be bad to break a game. 1 line out of millions. bug fixing is a harder job than making the game at times. it is very very common place to send out a broken game or segment of the game that doesn't stop gamplay ALWAYS. if it's still playable, it's better than not being there.


    you have no evidence of that. clearly, as it's not fixed...


    why is it so liner to you?

    why can't it stay out on the known bugs list?

    why is that seriously not an option to you?

    and whats to say that there not trying to fix it still. QA team have said before they read ALL bug reports and file them. so if they keep seeing them and see something new, there going to test it.
    It's not linear. It's called, take care of the Known Issues and fix the instance. It's called, don't ignore it, while taking people's money. It would be different if it was an occasional bug that had just started up. I've clearly shown that these KNOWN issues go all the way back to when it was first released. I think the posts show that it is getting worse. And, more importantly, that Turbine is ignoring it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alleyman View Post
    It's called, don't ignore it
    why do you think there ignoring it? what evidence do you have to back that up? clearly they do fix old bugs. most updates we see fixes to old instances that most of us never noticed.
    I think the posts show that it is getting worse.
    again. proof? forum posts mean nothing like that. you can't quantify a bug by amount of forum threads and how many you like to bring back up.

    you've wound yourself up now. your just arguing with no true reason other than to argue. I've given reasons/excuses why we probably won't see an easy fix, I know for fact it doesn't break ALWAYS so why do you want to force your oppinoin on other people so harshly? can't you just ignore it yourself or is your grip with turbine that bad because of a bug they can't seem to fix?

    I'm not trying to fustify turbines actions and we have no idea if it is or isn't fixable. it just seems pointless to close an instance that still working some times.

    can you not comprimise somewhat. make the instance free now. get it a detailed explination on 20Q. I really don't think it's as liner as fix or close it...
    Last edited by bohbashum; Jul 27 2013 at 09:48 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Doing it under 40 minutes is also poppycock: it still bugs. I've done it with a group of 85s, quickquick, still bugged out.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    why do you think there ignoring it? what evidence do you have to back that up? clearly they do fix old bugs. most updates we see fixes to old instances that most of us never noticed.

    again. proof? forum posts mean nothing like that. you can't quantify a bug by amount of forum threads and how many you like to bring back up.

    you've wound yourself up now. your just arguing with no true reason other than to argue. I've given reasons/excuses why we probably won't see an easy fix, I know for fact it doesn't break ALWAYS so why do you want to force your oppinoin on other people so harshly? can't you just ignore it yourself or is your grip with turbine that bad because of a bug they can't seem to fix?

    I'm not trying to fustify turbines actions and we have no idea if it is or isn't fixable. it just seems pointless to close an instance that still working some times.

    can you not comprimise somewhat. make the instance free now. get it a detailed explination on 20Q. I really don't think it's as liner as fix or close it...
    Let's use your logic....I got a car here. It works sometimes. I mean, it may not work all of the time, but it does work every so often. And, I have mechanics that don't know what to do about it, cause it is special. They don't actually ignore the car, but every time they work on it, they end up shrugging their shoulders and scratching their heads; they're stumped. I know, I know, that you might get frustrated when it doesn't work most of the time, but one of the times it may work...so, why don't you buy it or at least lease it....just remember, when you complain about it, we aren't going to do anything but shrug our shoulders and scratch our heads....but we'll gladly take your money. Would it make a difference if we just let you use the car? We won't charge you. Again, I know it might strand you somewhere...and get you frustrated, but then it would be free frustration.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alleyman View Post
    Let's use your logic.
    lets use your logic...

    "fix the unfixable mechanics!!! don't fix any other car that has really obvious issues and don't do anything else with your lives till it's fixed!!! and it's unfixable so good luck!!!"

    with

    "please destory all these cars in the world. mine doesn't work, therefore they all don't. the company have been unable to fix it and it was broken when I bought it"

    I'm curious how far my second example would go too. MC is buggy, do you believe they should just remove it completely from the game? they don't seem to be able to make it much better than it is, and they clearly are just ignoring all plea's for fixing it, we've not had an update for MC since U11...

    leaving the instance out *could* give the GM's possibility to get more presious bug reports. for example yours. I've never heard of it braking 6 times in a row. that really is special. I wouldn't be surprised if you did a detailed analysis in your bug report that QA person *might* notice a better patter than before.
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    lets use your logic...

    "fix the unfixable mechanics!!! don't fix any other car that has really obvious issues and don't do anything else with your lives till it's fixed!!! and it's unfixable so good luck!!!"

    with

    "please destory all these cars in the world. mine doesn't work, therefore they all don't. the company have been unable to fix it and it was broken when I bought it"

    I'm curious how far my second example would go too. MC is buggy, do you believe they should just remove it completely from the game? they don't seem to be able to make it much better than it is, and they clearly are just ignoring all plea's for fixing it, we've not had an update for MC since U11...

    leaving the instance out *could* give the GM's possibility to get more presious bug reports. for example yours. I've never heard of it braking 6 times in a row. that really is special. I wouldn't be surprised if you did a detailed analysis in your bug report that QA person *might* notice a better patter than before.
    No, I just want the draigoch car fixed or crushed....that's all. And, you've had plenty of time to work on the draigoch car....if it's a lemon, then it's a lemon. It's not special. I do like bantering with you....I seem to have the time right now. ;-p

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    lets use your logic...

    "fix the unfixable mechanics!!! don't fix any other car that has really obvious issues and don't do anything else with your lives till it's fixed!!! and it's unfixable so good luck!!!"

    with

    "please destory all these cars in the world. mine doesn't work, therefore they all don't. the company have been unable to fix it and it was broken when I bought it"

    I'm curious how far my second example would go too. MC is buggy, do you believe they should just remove it completely from the game? they don't seem to be able to make it much better than it is, and they clearly are just ignoring all plea's for fixing it, we've not had an update for MC since U11...

    leaving the instance out *could* give the GM's possibility to get more presious bug reports. for example yours. I've never heard of it braking 6 times in a row. that really is special. I wouldn't be surprised if you did a detailed analysis in your bug report that QA person *might* notice a better patter than before.
    Besides, I might get your frustration level up.....;-p

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    lets use your logic...

    "fix the unfixable mechanics!!! don't fix any other car that has really obvious issues and don't do anything else with your lives till it's fixed!!! and it's unfixable so good luck!!!"

    with

    "please destory all these cars in the world. mine doesn't work, therefore they all don't. the company have been unable to fix it and it was broken when I bought it"

    I'm curious how far my second example would go too. MC is buggy, do you believe they should just remove it completely from the game? they don't seem to be able to make it much better than it is, and they clearly are just ignoring all plea's for fixing it, we've not had an update for MC since U11...

    leaving the instance out *could* give the GM's possibility to get more presious bug reports. for example yours. I've never heard of it braking 6 times in a row. that really is special. I wouldn't be surprised if you did a detailed analysis in your bug report that QA person *might* notice a better patter than before.
    Man, if I had done it six times in a row, and it bugged all six times, I'd been creating account after account to just rage help tickets.....or spam GLFF.......lol....just kidding.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    England. north-west
    Posts
    2,685
    Quote Originally Posted by Alleyman View Post
    Besides, I might get your frustration level up.....;-p
    you had it, it went down when I was remembering my utter fustration when I first tanked draicoch and it bugged. EVERYONE blaimed me (jokingly) but I felt pretty bad afterwards.

    I spent a good time after that modertering the forums for it, learnt to tank it better and never got solice in a real responce from GM's or devs. so I think it's safe to say this bug is beond them now. so I just have to take comfert from when I'm on live, warning people. when people complain on forums *try* my best to justify what they've done here.

    it's kinda like valve and TF2. they spent something like a year+ in development trying and working with systems to make 2 types of players. a captain, and soldiers. the captain would controll the battle from above like an RTS game, placing sentries and stuff about. while the soldiers played like FPS games, really being the meat in the battle. it's said to have been a complete failure, and all play tests were negative. they scrapped the whole idea with very little to salvage.

    lotro is kinda like that. they probably had palantir players saying "erm, it's buggy" but they probably spend all the development budget trying to get it done. so management forced it out, gambling it could be fixed soon after. time and more development budget wasted trying to fix it. turbine probably loath the now, and really, unsure what to do. just leave it in the corner to die. if they touch it, it might bite back. they didn't have the choice to scrap it like TF2, this was the whole update pretty much, the games already out and eyes were already judging them, they NEEDED to force it out.

    shame...

    it's lose lose situation. bad practice? maybe. did the team like it? probably not (they do get attacthed to there work tbh). did they probably get some serious crunch times to try and fix it? yes, and it was probably painful for them. is removing it from the game a solution? depending if the bug is getting to the point it is unplayable. is it earning money? shamefully yes, is that bad?... it's a company after all...
    [CENTER][URL=http://s739.photobucket.com/user/bubushum/media/signiturepre1_zps427684ba.png.html][IMG]http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx38/bubushum/signiturepre1_zps427684ba.png[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]

 

 
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