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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Greece
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    557

    Monster Play and elitist behaviour

    Greetings

    I had just rolled my first Reaver on the Brandywine server due to it's abundance of players and thus groups for PvMP. However not all were as expected. Although there was an overabundance of players on both sides, in the Creep side some players decided to make a discrimination in the Creep playerbase. They tagged every player above Rank 5 worthy while all the rest of us who were below that rank were tagged as useless to them. The result was that while the Freep side was fighting us in a full 24-man raid, we were scattered on 3-4 small groups with the largest one being a 7-10 man raid which consisted of some elitists who chose to tag the rest of us as useless. While I understand that it is their right to chose with who to play I also believe that such behavior is really ruining the PvMP as new players are actually unable to enter raids and thus perform successfully in the field of battle as other only rarely take notice of their status. Last but not least it is really sad to even think about the "warm welcoming" that many new players may get in such an unfriendly environment.

    So, what is your opinion on this issue ? Do believe that there is something that can be done ?

  2. #2
    I suggest you roll a a char on Laurelin the creep community there is very welcoming to all.
    [IMG]http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii500/supermaco/2800703.png[/IMG]

  3. #3
    At this point, I think the only thing you can do is to get in to a tribe for more grouping experience. Otherwise, you might have to do what I did. I pve/tagged/killed noobs up to r7 before I got more regular invites. I know it sucks really bad to be a greenie creep bc they're just so damn weak in comparison to greenie freeps and freeps in general, but stay strong bro.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    1,871
    Unfortunately with the current state of imbalance, greenie Creeps below rank 5 are actually worth more to freeps as a defeat response than they are a threat to them. As a result having them in raids can potentially be a liability. Which is not say that a dismissive attitude is acceptable. Being a jerkwad never is, but this is likely where some of it stems from.

    While I can't say I've experienced anything near that level myself(I am on Landroval FYI), it would be advised to steer clear of actual PvP until rank 5 or 6, and just stick with questing and getting your maps.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    762
    The only discrimination I've seen on Laurelin is towards leechers (the ones that go on follow and just afk-farm renown/infamy) and towards multi-boxers/farmers. I don't spend a lot of time in Ettens, but I visit once in a while and never had any problems.

    But Ettenmoors is typically where you'll find the "elitists" getting their ego boosts, so I'm not surprised that some behave like that. My advice would be to find the players who generally lead raids on your sever and talk with them for a minute and let them know you want to join etc. That usually goes a long way if they aren't jerks ;).
    Retired. My LOTRO projects will no longer be maintained.

  6. #6
    Eh don't give up on brandy. I regularly run through on my 0 audacity Champ as free lunch. I never star hug, i always fight to the death.
    True Brandy is highly populated and true maybe rolling a reaver at first isn't the best idea in terms of trying to rake in commendations but its PvP and u have to keep trying no matter what if u want to succeed.

    Truth is, anyone of low rank, low audacity, and unknown will be an outcast until they spend enough time out there. This is just how it is. But if u feel a more relaxed server for creepside would be better for you, there is a large selection of lower population servers. Good luck out there, and try to have fun. :P
    [highlight][color=black][size=2][B](•_•) Out numbered? Out gunned?
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  7. #7
    Sorry to say, but you have to deal with it. They system is at it is, and at lower ranks, you're just cannon fodder, and a waste of heals/bubbles, and the time to apply those. It's reasonable people don't take lower ranks in, since in majority they don't posses max audacity, corruptions and maps, and are generally unskilled.

    On the lighter note, it's relatively easy to reach R5/R6, and having at least the blue rank, you'll find it easier to get into raids/groups. In the meanwhile, keep doing quests for maps, and keep exploring class and general MPVP guides and forum threads to update your knowledge and collect information.
    Vilya: Healadder (defiler, R10), Kommisar (stalker, R7).
    Snowbourn: Superserial (warleader, R8), Steelstack (reaver, R6).
    Brandywine: Manvet (champion, R10 - Retired); Stargash-1 (reaver, R12)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    23
    I suggest you to rank up to R5 and learn your class or group with someone, because you can always find someone who will be willing to help you.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    547
    Creep raids need people with maps. Anything below rank 5 unless store buying maps is a liability not only because they have to walk around but because they won't have any commendations gained in bulk through the map deeds.

    You should be able to get rank 5 in a matter of days anyway if you do map quests.
    What is it? What do you smell?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Lothlorien
    Posts
    1,708
    Quote Originally Posted by SozuRogberry View Post
    Creep raids need people with maps. Anything below rank 5 unless store buying maps is a liability not only because they have to walk around but because they won't have any commendations gained in bulk through the map deeds.

    You should be able to get rank 5 in a matter of days anyway if you do map quests.
    ^This right here is the main reason behind it. If you can't keep up with the raid, you aren't going to be of much use in it.

    However, I do think that maybe the Creepside communities should try to help out it's new players a little more to ensure that they know what they are doing, so we won't have a bunch of high ranked newbs running around like Freepside :P
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    762
    I guess this is only an issue on servers where creeps can actually put together full raids all the time
    Retired. My LOTRO projects will no longer be maintained.

  12. #12
    it isn't "elitist" players, it is an unintended consequence of a game aspect that isn't considered to be a significant draw for revenue. Skirms are another example, they pretty much were left to rot in the middle earth sun after Moria. PvP is now drawing the same swarms of flies hatching from the maggots on its dead carcass. You can probably, with perseverance, find some help on a given server, the creep community generally values new blood (literally), but you have to weigh the grind and frustration with other venues on the market today which offer some very intense, exciting and ultimately rewarding PvP gameplay outside of the ecksbawx crowd.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    275
    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    ^This right here is the main reason behind it. If you can't keep up with the raid, you aren't going to be of much use in it.

    However, I do think that maybe the Creepside communities should try to help out it's new players a little more to ensure that they know what they are doing, so we won't have a bunch of high ranked newbs running around like Freepside :P
    implying that isn't the case for the majority considering current ranking speed
    "death is nothing to us, for when we are.. death has not come. And when death has finally come, we are not"
    R7 Spider/R11 Reaver - R13/R11 Champion

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Aranglas View Post
    So, what is your opinion on this issue ? Do believe that there is something that can be done ?
    My opinion is it obviously makes more sense to try to help new creeps and include them as much as possible because players come and go, so the noob of today is tomorrow's vet. However, a lot of the more cynical responses are true, too. My nagging thought is you just caught things on a bad night. Hopefully you've tried again and got a better welcome.

    Also, are you sure you were reading the situation 100% correct? A lot of the "wrongs" that occur in the moors result from imperfect perceptions -- often someone feels like they've been purposefully disrespected when in reality the "villian" was innocently oblivious concentrating on something else going on.

    If there was an elitist group, maybe it wasn't necessarily to be mean to low ranks, but perhaps it was a kin that just wanted to keep a closed group? Or maybe they were trying out new strats among their group? Or maybe the freep raid was so bad that creep group of 10 was fighting it even/wiping it and didn't want to add any more and create a zerg situation?

    Obviously I don't know, just wondering that perhaps since you're brand new you didn't have perfect info. Some creep leaders have been doing this five or six years now so usually they have good reasons for their actions.

    If indeed it's just an elitist situation and you don't get a good vibe, do what others have offered, try their servers. You could consider Elendilmir, it's difference is a creep-wide free teamspeak. Usually that's the only requirement to get into a raid. And at least by being able to talk to someone you'd get a good explanation if you weren't being invited.
    Sniz(defiler) / Johanson(cappy)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    6,072
    Quote Originally Posted by Aranglas View Post
    So, what is your opinion on this issue ? Do believe that there is something that can be done ?
    I don't see the problem. It isn't pretty creepside early on, and ive always advocated for a creep vault or mail so low ranks can get their maps as fast as possible (beside the store). You gold tag that elite group, you get what you can and you take your deaths.


  16. #16
    I do see it occasionally so I can understand how new players feel... But its not like I am any help either though... I seldom offer advice and it seems like when I do I become a crutch (or a limb) to be leeched on whenever they have hardships...

    However I think a lot of new PvP'rs forget that when the "Old Elitists" don't care about their problems, its not because they want to scare them away, but rather because they had to learn on their own. There was no manual, there was no wiki page full of info, and there certainly wasn't a quest tracker and free infamy/renown/comms to be made before running into battle.

    For the most part people need to create a reputation for themselves before being accepted by those players. There are a lot of different kinds of play styles and a lot of different kinds of people. It can be tough, but half of the battle is won by being tolerant of the hardships. Because lets face it PvP, especially on creep side, is not as easy as logging on and charging in.
    "There are things that go bump in the night. We're the ones who bump back." -BPRD

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    2,379
    New creeps badly need a boost to make them viable. Across the board a new/low ranked creep is cannon fodder pure and simple. They need a major boost in survivability and they also need to be given the tools to allow the, to have some meaningful impact as a player. This isn't about wanting buffs or nerfs for favourite classes or giving out undeserved rewards; it is about improving basic gameplay so that players can actually enjoy their gaming experience. Frankly the situation for a new creep is nothing short of farcical.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Disneyland
    Posts
    509
    Quote Originally Posted by Aranglas View Post
    Greetings

    I had just rolled my first Reaver on the Brandywine server due to it's abundance of players and thus groups for PvMP. However not all were as expected. Although there was an overabundance of players on both sides, in the Creep side some players decided to make a discrimination in the Creep playerbase. They tagged every player above Rank 5 worthy while all the rest of us who were below that rank were tagged as useless to them. The result was that while the Freep side was fighting us in a full 24-man raid, we were scattered on 3-4 small groups with the largest one being a 7-10 man raid which consisted of some elitists who chose to tag the rest of us as useless. While I understand that it is their right to chose with who to play I also believe that such behavior is really ruining the PvMP as new players are actually unable to enter raids and thus perform successfully in the field of battle as other only rarely take notice of their status. Last but not least it is really sad to even think about the "warm welcoming" that many new players may get in such an unfriendly environment.

    So, what is your opinion on this issue ? Do believe that there is something that can be done ?
    I don't know the creeps on your server but I know that on Evernight we are incredibly suspicious of any low rank reaver. We have been burnt so many times with freep spies on their freevers who actually have the audacity to join to creep raids and stuff. So most of the time the creep raid leaders don't invite people that are unknown to them unless someone else can vouch. Of course, this is just been made all the more difficult by the fact altfinder is dead.

    You just have to tag along with other low ranks, maybe try to form your own groups or join a tribe. As soon as you get a few ranks and a trustworthy name it gets easier, but if the spies on your server are anything like the Evernight ones (who have no shame) then, although it is frustrating and unfair, just be patient. Ultimately the fault lies with Turbine and the way this is set up.
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  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    6,072
    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    New creeps badly need a boost to make them viable. Across the board a new/low ranked creep is cannon fodder pure and simple. They need a major boost in survivability and they also need to be given the tools to allow the, to have some meaningful impact as a player. This isn't about wanting buffs or nerfs for favourite classes or giving out undeserved rewards; it is about improving basic gameplay so that players can actually enjoy their gaming experience. Frankly the situation for a new creep is nothing short of farcical.
    Then lets start simple, a vault or mail. Ive read they cant do mail so a vault, or some way to exchange mats between toons without using a mule. My personal belief is a creep becomes much more viable when maps are attained. Sure they still blow up quick without aud, but we are in an era of raid v raid and those new creeps need maps or they will be dropped. A resource exchange of some kind exclusive of another player would be ideal. Heck, have one of the NPC's sell mats in grams for gold. I view this as a major obstacle because it requires the new creep to PvE in a PvP zone. At a minimum have the NPCs sell the mats for crude maps, ideally there would be storage for every creep and every tribe.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    157
    By the time you learn your ways around the Moors, have gotten a couple maps and are ready to add something to a raid, you should be rank 5 or close to it.

    It's not elite to put a level cap on entry into a specific group. If you're too low you take more from the group than you're able to provide. Not having sufficient mapablity makes it almost impossible, logistically, to keep up with a raid. Also there is no way to actually put a 'label' on a toon. You exaggerate.

    Group up with the other newbs and go do something helpful for your side, flip an op or do a quest to release the giant warg or whatever. Don't be annoying and before you know it (a week or less) you'll be ready to raid.

    Creeps in general perhaps need a boost, new creeps, specifically, don't need a boost.

    It's easier than ever to rank up in the Moors.
    Purely~Scrumptious

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Ettenmoors
    Posts
    26
    The reality for creeps under R5 is that it's true: you are a liability for any creep group, especially when facing geared and organised freeps.

    • You will have very low audacity, health and resistances.
    • So you will die very very easily, so making difficult or impossible for healers to keep you alive.
    • As another has already stated, easy kills give freep (esp healers like Captains) lots of death spam for their skills (another reason why creep groups prefer to fight outside NPCs).
    • You will have few or no maps making it difficult for a creep group to out-maneuver freeps with their horses:
      • giving freeps the tactical advantage to get best positioning for fights that suit their group composition
      • making it difficult to hold outposts and keeps,
      • and having you run everywhere telegraphs your groups maneuvers (they'll be watching rez-locations), making flanking difficult or impossible.


    Creeps Rank 5 or below should focus on quests: to rank, get their important skills and all their maps (Good Isen being the least useful).

    Quests give infamy and comms (reduced amount now) but also give you maps, and maps give you *big* commendation rewards (why you should earn maps rather than buy them) to buy those all important class skills. Sadly as a greenie (fresh creep) you'll have to PvE a bit to make PvMP worthwhile.

    Brandywine and other popular PvMP servers are a very rough places to rank greenies; as those quest spots are a favorite farming spots for freeps. Hopefully transfers will be back soon so you can move your higher ranked creeps (from the dead worlds) to the busier worlds, and relieving some of the pain of being all but free renown for freeps early on in your creep-life.

    ~Rugz
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    Elendilmir Mockluk R9 BA Allillawen R7 Wv Khashdrush R7 WL
    Windfola Barshakh R7 Wg Brandywine Marbfulorz R6 D

  22. #22
    The situation you are describing is not necessarily elitism, but selective collectivism. Most likely you weren't invited over someone else who was rank 5+ due to them being stronger and likely to have more audacity than you. Rank 5 is when, as a creep, you become a fairly valuable asset to creep groups/raids, however, not necessarily when it comes to being solo anymore due to freeps' strength. Those running the raid probably just want the strongest people available to compete with highly geared, highly ranked freep raid. Honestly, if I was a creep raid leader at this point in time and had the option to get a rank 5 warleader over a rank 1 warleader, I'm gonna choose the rank 5 in the heartbeat if it means kicking the rank 1, but it has nothing to do with elitism, but how I want to make it so my raid is the strongest it can be, and the collective raid will be more competitive overall, resulting in more fun (this isn't meant to be hypocritical if you read my below statement). It is essentially the same as inviting a freep who is level 80 and kicking them/not inviting them in the first place for someone that is lvl 85 and geared.

    Moreover, if you as a lower ranked creep allow the higher ranked creeps to form up with as many high ranks available, they will make it easier for you to get infamy if you tag along side them and contribute in a positive way, preferably being a healer. What I suggest you do while you wait to have that opportunity to finally join the big raid is: work on your maps for quicker travel (another reason they probably didn't invite you) and infamy/commendations, work on audacity and try to get that before some not-as-important skills for your class (and please, don't waste them on skins until you have full audacity lol :P), group up with creeps similar to your rank to help the main raid(s), or make your own little noob raid to help out, and hopefully rank up that way until you're viewed as a viable asset to the main creep raid, and most importantly: SHOW RESPECT, BE PATIENT, AND PERSEVERE until you get the chance to join the main raid.

    In conclusion, it has nothing to do with elitism, just trying to make the best overall competition for the enemy. It has nothing to do with you, just your rank and audacity. Everyone has been there when the main raid wouldn't invite them until they ranked/became viable, even I have and probably those "elitists" have been as well. I hoped this help and good luck .

    Disclaimer: There are elitists out there, but they usually don't invite anyone they don't like/think is "not skilled".
    Last edited by joshy8910; Aug 03 2013 at 12:35 PM.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Ettenmoors
    Posts
    2,324
    "I'm better than you at a video-game" type people are just people who couldn't achieve anything IRL, so they achieved it in-game. Just let 'em have their fun. Everyone wants that feeling of achievement. What gets on my nerves are the moronic Elitists (and not all Elitists are moronic either) that make fun of BRAND new people for sucking and comparing the new people to themselves, even though they've been playing themselves for 3+ years.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Graycient View Post
    "I'm better than you at a video-game" type people are just people who couldn't achieve anything IRL, so they achieved it in-game. Just let 'em have their fun. Everyone wants that feeling of achievement. What gets on my nerves are the moronic Elitists (and not all Elitists are moronic either) that make fun of BRAND new people for sucking and comparing the new people to themselves, even though they've been playing themselves for 3+ years.
    I don't mind elitists that are actually good at their class since they can back it up(tho they are still dooshes), I just hate the elitists that think they are good at their class, yet absolutely suck, but think they are better than you.

    I agree with your sentiments of those that think they are all that to a guy that played a week compared to them playing for so long lol.

  25. #25
    I've got a number of creeps and freeps on the Brandywine server above rank 5, so I can speak with a bit of confidence when I say-
    no matter how you slice it, refusing to group even with new creeps has never made sense to me.

    It's stupid. There's no good excuse to just run around in 3-4 small groups rather than just having everyone group
    together. The same goes on freep side, too. It's ridiculously hard to find people who will let you join their group. And
    there's just no good excuse for it.

    "Nooo! They die too easy!" Just sounds like a lame excuse to be elitist. All it takes is good leadership, and low ranks
    do just fine in a group.

    Maybe they should just make creeps start at rank 5 to begin with. Cut out the annoying, lonesome stage. But the way
    things are, i'm sure creeps would just start demanding "at least rank 10" if that were to happen regardless.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000046ddaa/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

 

 
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