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  1. #1
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    Wardens Summarized

    Trait shield...use Assailment...fighting me melee...use Determination...they're dying...use bleeds and Recklessness...I'm dying...use Defiant Challenge...Never Surrender...Determination... morale leaches...spam heal gambits and leaches...run to NPCs...1 shotters...HA!!! I'M ALIVE!!! YOU CAN'T KILL ME!!!

    No &&&&!!! You're a shield traited Warden.
    Now, I know that not all Wardens are like this, but a disturbing amount of Wardens I see do this.

    Same old same old. Coming from a Warden who fought in Recklessness and traited red (only used Assailment in lag fests), this needs to be fixed. Recently switching from my Warden to creep side and playing Warg, I find this really annoying. Not to mention that since they are super-uber OP there are a lot of Wardens. I see a lot of Wardens going out there like greenies using store perks and buffs. There are a lot of people who have nothing better to do than EZ-mode their way to nicer, shinier symbols next to their character portraits. What happened to challenging yourself?

    This part is more of a plea to Turbine to fix the Warden class.
    Last edited by themannweb; Jul 26 2013 at 05:41 PM.

  2. #2
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    Warden class can die, if there is many creeps to kill it. I think that is ok. Other freep classes need to bring same level as Warden!! I have read the book few times and movies are good too. Even there creeps need many many to kill one freep and still several OP creeps died. Sarumans Uruk army vs few hundreds and still horse dudes kick their asses LOL.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Bazkanaggi View Post
    Warden class can die, if there is many creeps to kill it. I think that is ok. Other freep classes need to bring same level as Warden!! I have read the book few times and movies are good too. Even there creeps need many many to kill one freep and still several OP creeps died. Sarumans Uruk army vs few hundreds and still horse dudes kick their asses LOL.
    Troll

  4. #4
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    Naturally this isn't the first time this has happened. Minstrels and Champions during Rise of Isengard being the prominent example(considering they're still like that).

    Have to say though that while I haven't been here that long(started PvMPing around F2P launch), I have never seen a class so unbelievably out-and-out broken like the Warden is now. It's really mind-blowing just how far and above its power level is in comparison to the other freep classes, and even more so when compared to Creepside.

    It's rather sad that we're going to have to wait until Helm's Deep, at minimum mind you, until this clusterfudge gets sorted out.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Naturally this isn't the first time this has happened. Minstrels and Champions during Rise of Isengard being the prominent example(considering they're still like that).

    Have to say though that while I haven't been here that long(started PvMPing around F2P launch), I have never seen a class so unbelievably out-and-out broken like the Warden is now. It's really mind-blowing just how far and above its power level is in comparison to the other freep classes, and even more so when compared to Creepside.

    It's rather sad that we're going to have to wait until Helm's Deep, at minimum mind you, until this clusterfudge gets sorted out.
    And the funny thing is that whenever you say this in prescence of (some) Wardens they keep saying their class is not OP or broken, in a desperate attempt to defend their strenght.

    Oh, newsflash: the overhauling stuff will probably make things worse, look at the Rk/Warden overhaul in U6

    ::: ::: ~ Arrostorm
    ::: Commander Vilemaw Sad, Watcher ::: - Get it? ---- ::: Master Guardian Ceburia 'the Banned' ::: ---- Snowbourn[EU]

  6. #6
    When f2p took off the game became a PvE game and little care would be given to balance in PvP. The warden is a premium class, you must pay to play it. I am a solo PvE Warden, and I know the balance isn't going change. Balance for PvP is hard when your money is coming from solo PvE followed by group PvE.
    Death is my favorite interrupt skill

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by artax33 View Post
    Balance for PvP is hard when your money is coming from solo PvE followed by group PvE.
    Especially when certain skills aren't properly tested in the Beta and some numbers completely f*k up, balance is far to find.

    And we all know Turbine fails epicly at creating balance, because when they look into a class they just simply become (slightly) overpowered, look at Spider and Reaver at start of Rohan. They failed to overhaul warg though

    ::: ::: ~ Arrostorm
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  8. #8
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    the dot's are what blow my mind. I didn't think a class could really be stronger than a champion, boy was i surprised when i started playing my reaver again
    "death is nothing to us, for when we are.. death has not come. And when death has finally come, we are not"
    R7 Spider/R11 Reaver - R13/R11 Champion

  9. #9
    I usually chime in in threads like this with my $.02 on how to fix the class, so here goes.

    DC is OP and dumb, it isn't necessary in PvE, and it sure has no place in the Moors as-is.
    -Cut the duration in half (15s) or the mitigations in half (+20%, instead of 40%)

    Reflects on wall of steel are too easy and powerful. Creeps that don't run combat analysis often miss the fact that for many creeps, the reflects wardens put up hit as hard, or harder than their auto attacks. I almost never put up a reflect skill, but when I do its a good 10-15% buff to dps, and the primary form of this is our hardest hitting raw damage skill anyway (wall of steel in reckless or Assailment):
    - Make it so wall of steel in reckless or assailment must be stacked the way Shield mastery must be used twice to get the full reflect potency. Only allow one of the 3 possible reflects to be active at a time.

    Bleed/DoT durations. I'll admit that I really enjoy how complicated the bleed duration's make a true warden dps rotation, but in PvP they are quite silly considering they can't be potted:
    - Increase bleed/dot damage by 25% and cut the duration back down to 16s like it was before the revamp. We'll be back to the 6-8 gambit dps rotation, instead of the ~16 gambit rotations that separate the men from the boys, but its the right thing to do.

    Stance-Dancing to stack bleeds then stack heals. This is the toughest one to deal with, since warden's are the only melee class that doesn't have an in-combat sprint, they have no counter to being kited besides a stance-swap to assailment. Granted most wardens do the opposite, but it is a potential problem:
    - All self-buffing skills are immediately dispelled upon swapping out of a stance. If the warden is in Det stacking heals and tries to swap to a dps stance, all active heals are dropped, same with reflects put up in any stance when swapping, or avoidance buffs, etc.
    - Remove the heal from Ranged Restoration. I shouldn't be able to outheal a BA from 40m while they blow a cooldown barrage. Conviction can stay since it is a relatively weak heal, but a ranged dps class shouldn't have access to a heal that ticks for 600 every 3 seconds.

    Healing in general in the moors needs to be nerfed, across the board 30% heal reduction for freeps, maybe 15% for creeps. Drop spam-healing warden's capacity by 30% and much of the stupidity they do currently goes away.



    All this would still leave Warden's as a relatively powerful class, but WELL down from what they have now (and if heals were given the across the board nerf, champs would probably go back to the top of the freep totem pole above Mini's, LMs, and Wardens.)



    Or just nerf us into the dirt so only those people who genuinely enjoy the class and it's mechanics can continue on as we always have.
    Last edited by spelunker; Jul 27 2013 at 01:24 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Or just nerf us into the dirt so only those people who genuinely enjoy the class and it's mechanics can continue on as we always have.
    That's really what I want to happen.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I usually chime in in threads like this with my $.02 on how to fix the class...

    All this would still leave Warden's as a relatively powerful class, but WELL down from what they have now (and if heals were given the across the board nerf, champs would probably go back to the top of the freep totem pole above Mini's, LMs, and Wardens.)

    Or just nerf us into the dirt so only those people who genuinely enjoy the class and it's mechanics can continue on as we always have.
    While for the most part I agree with Deso..
    I do see some value in assailment heals and should not be dropped all together. What you then have is essentially an "I Win" given to all the BAs who slow-kite melee classes. Assailment heals should not be on par with determination heals but there are useful aspects of assailment in pve non-dps roles. Thinking of Fornost water boss here where a Warden is more useful than a hunter. What you could see is -50% heals upon entering monster play in assailment since the distance requirement wouldn't facilitate stance-dance spam heal anyway.

    The point you made about dropping buffs and heals in stance change is good, but again it would have to be moors specific since so many aspects of the warden come into play for pve purposes it's hard to isolate just pvmp on its own. I am a big fan of 3-man groups in the moors or even duo with another dps and conviction has a very useful place.

    Many of the aspects of warden pvmp are fantastic and a big draw of why I and many others chose the class. Personally I wanted a challenging class and it came down to Burg and Warden. Warden is more likely to receive Dev love and attention compared to my former main (hunter) who has been thrown away and forgotten. Warden while admittedly is OP in pvmp is also challenging and rewarding. As many wardens know taking on a small fellow of greenies is exciting and very fun. This isn't isolated to Wardens tho, this is done by Champs the same way.

    A spear geared Warden is a very formidable ally and foe in the moors. I wish more wardens accepted the challenge of playing a defeatable class rather than making it god like. I and many others take the mindset of "You don't need heals, just DPS harder" and that is the wonderful challenge I see in the Warden class.

    As I have said admittedly the class is head and shoulders above all others, some of that is slightly deserved, other aspects are not. As I have progressed with warden I find myself looking for more and more ways to make fights fair and balanced, and that is the rewarding aspect of pvmp. Finding a formidable opponent and not knowing if you will lose or die trying is great. We do not have escape skills like many other classes and I think that is perfectly fitting for a class that should not go down without a fight, not the class that walks away from a fight with full health and HoTs filling your screen like a slot machine.

    Nerf aspects of the class that make it unbeatable while not giving every class an "I Win" button. Give creeps more tactical advantage with -healing debuffs and I think you can put us on par with the champs and reavers and find we would enjoy the moors much more, and so would others.
    ~Anaxander R9 Warden, Baranthor R5 Hunter, Skartan R2 Guardian~ Elendilmir
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    DC is OP and dumb, it isn't necessary in PvE, and it sure has no place in the Moors as-is.

    Or just nerf us into the dirt so only those people who genuinely enjoy the class and it's mechanics can continue on as we always have.
    Ah man, really. You again.
    I'm sorry but all this is deeply stupid, and let me elaborate why.
    PvP is a small part of LOTRO, you all should know that, but nonetheless you insist in changing the whole class BECAUSE of a specific PvP problem.

    When you say DC is not needed, you lie. Seems you have no clue about PvE. I guess you're experience must be based in easy content like 3man, 6man, easy raids to claim that stupidity here. Or you must love your creep friends too much to sell your soul like that.
    DC is needed for endgame content. Not only that, Guardian's Pledge cd can be down to 1.30min while DC is 2.30min for only 10 more seconds duration. Taking the other tanking class as a comparison, DC in PVE is not only needed, its cd should be even shorter.

    And dude, you always come with the same lame argumentation. You really think you are the only real and genuine Warden out there.
    Let me tell you, kind of tired of your stupid arrogance. Been playing the Warden for too many years, been through all class stages since Moria. Why you think you truly enjoy the class mechanics and I don't?
    Oh by the way, those mechanics you love are the ones you try to completely change over and over and over in the forums.

    And now, when the class is finally working as good tanks, as close to Guardians as it ever was, you come crying to nerf it because you don't know &&&& about eng-game PvE. Honestly, every time you open your mouth you are not only showing publicly your Warden experience is very, very deficient, you are also showing a lack of respect to the rest of Warden community (which thank god has more variety than YOU).

    Got PVP problems?
    SUGGEST PVP SPECIFIC FIXES.
    Easy as that.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    Ah man, really. You again.
    I'm sorry but all this is deeply stupid, and let me elaborate why.
    PvP is a small part of LOTRO, you all should know that, but nonetheless you insist in changing the whole class BECAUSE of a specific PvP problem.

    When you say DC is not needed, you lie. Seems you have no clue about PvE. I guess you're experience must be based in easy content like 3man, 6man, easy raids to claim that stupidity here. Or you must love your creep friends too much to sell your soul like that.
    DC is needed for endgame content. Not only that, Guardian's Pledge cd can be down to 1.30min while DC is 2.30min for only 10 more seconds duration. Taking the other tanking class as a comparison, DC in PVE is not only needed, its cd should be even shorter.

    And dude, you always come with the same lame argumentation. You really think you are the only real and genuine Warden out there.
    Let me tell you, kind of tired of your stupid arrogance. Been playing the Warden for too many years, been through all class stages since Moria. Why you think you truly enjoy the class mechanics and I don't?
    Oh by the way, those mechanics you love are the ones you try to completely change over and over and over in the forums.

    And now, when the class is finally working as good tanks, as close to Guardians as it ever was, you come crying to nerf it because you don't know &&&& about eng-game PvE. Honestly, every time you open your mouth you are not only showing publicly your Warden experience is very, very deficient, you are also showing a lack of respect to the rest of Warden community (which thank god has more variety than YOU).

    Got PVP problems?
    SUGGEST PVP SPECIFIC FIXES.
    Easy as that.
    Ooo, nice post.

    DC is garbage in PvE and PvP. How far did your warden get in ToO, both before and after the revamp?
    If you need to use DC more than once every 2:30 in any PvE content we've ever had, you need to reroll a new class, tough guy.


    Where did I say I was the only one who enjoyed the class' mechanics? I said the class should be in a position where people play it because they enjoy the mechanics, not because they like being the most powerful class in the game.

    The mechanics of having no cooldowns, a gambit system where 'lesser' skills are combined in various combinations to created more powerful ones in a class requiring you to anticipate your needs, rather than respond to them? yeah, I argue against that all the time.

    Beyond a nerf to DC, where did I make any suggestions related to "nerfing" the class' ability to tank in PvE?

    Heck, none of my suggestions would even really hurt us in PvE as Dpsers, reducing bleed duration but increasing potency would do nothing to overall dps figures, and if anything make us more viable as dps on lower morale targets. Do you really need to self-heal in PvE in assailment? Are reflects even a remotely useful thing in PvE dps beyond soloing?


    Please though, tell me more about your warden that needs to DC every 1:30 to beat content.
    Last edited by spelunker; Jul 27 2013 at 02:54 PM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Ooo, nice post.

    DC is garbage in PvE and PvP. How far did your warden get in ToO, both before and after the revamp?
    If you need to use DC more than once every 2:30 in any PvE content we've ever had, you need to reroll a new class, tough guy.


    Where did I say I was the only one who enjoyed the class' mechanics? I said the class should be in a position where people play it because they enjoy the mechanics, not because they like being the most powerful class in the game.

    The mechanics of having no cooldowns, a gambit system where 'lesser' skills are combined in various combinations to created more powerful ones in a class requiring you to anticipate your needs, rather than respond to them? yeah, I argue against that all the time.

    Beyond a nerf to DC, where did I make any suggestions related to "nerfing" the class' ability to tank in PvE?

    Heck, none of my suggestions would even really hurt us in PvE as Dpsers, reducing bleed duration but increasing potency would do nothing to overall dps figures, and if anything make us more viable as dps on lower morale targets. Do you really need to self-heal in PvE in assailment? Are reflects even a remotely useful thing in PvE dps beyond soloing?


    Please though, tell me more about your warden that needs to DC every 1:30 to beat content.
    Maybe you want to take a look at all your posts / comments about nerfing selfheals, nerfing DC?
    LIER.

    Flights t2c and even BfE t2c are a good example of how important is DC for Warden's tanking - although I doubt you even know what I'm talking about, am I wrong? DC is as important as Pledge is for Guardians in extreme situations. But you know nothing about that because your only real warden experience is in the Ettenmoors, and you only think about Ettens when you come to the forums claiming NERF. That is quite annoying, and stupid.

    As I said at the end of my post: if you have a specific problem with wardens in PvP, ask for changes in PvP - not ask to nerf the whole &&&&ing class, specially when you don't even play endgame content with that class.
    And no, running ToO at level 85... or the easy version of BG at 85...doesn't count as endgame, sorry.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Healing in general in the moors needs to be nerfed, across the board 30% heal reduction for freeps, maybe 15% for creeps. Drop spam-healing warden's capacity by 30% and much of the stupidity they do currently goes away.
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Beyond a nerf to DC, where did I make any suggestions related to "nerfing" the class' ability to tank in PvE?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    Maybe you want to take a look at all your posts / comments about nerfing selfheals, nerfing DC?
    LIER.
    RIEDER?
    (i bolded the part you seem incapable or comprehending, just for you)

    Or did you mean my comments ~9 months ago about how supplementing our reliance on self-heals with other types of changes would be a more 'balanced' approach?

    Flights t2c and even BfE t2c are a good example of how important is DC for Warden's tanking - although I doubt you even know what I'm talking about, am I wrong? DC is as important as Pledge is for Guardians in extreme situations. But you know nothing about that because your only real warden experience is in the Ettenmoors, and you only think about Ettens when you come to the forums claiming NERF. That is quite annoying, and stupid.
    My former kin (semi-disbanded due to lack of interest in the current raid cluster) Was one of the first to down Smaug T2C, BfE T2, and Flight T2 (over 3 months ago) with me as 'main' tank in Flight. Our problem in BfE T2C was lack of control on the part of dps, and not smoothly killing adds.
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ion&highlight=
    some discussion on BfE tactics. Post #6 might be of extreme interest to you in that the warden actually tanking a troll mentions he used DC exactly once in the whole fight...
    Our own Kinships troubles with T2C in Flight was primarily down to movement as a group not being ideal, and not being as prepared for additional waves as we should have been. I tanked the warriors, with their incoming healing debuff straight up, without turning them away as at the time I felt this was exploitative, though it seems that it is an intentended mechanism. I doubt I DCed more than once in 10 minutes in any of our Flight T2 runs, and me DCing when working on T2C had absolutely no impact on our success or failure.
    Perhaps when the lag gets fixed in Flight T2C and more kins are able to start beating it after the nerf, we'll see better how necessary multiple DCs are in that fight, from what I saw, I'm predicting it will be no more important than in BfE.


    As I said at the end of my post: if you have a specific problem with wardens in PvP, ask for changes in PvP - not ask to nerf the whole &&&&ing class, specially when you don't even play endgame content with that class.
    And no, running ToO at level 85... or the easy version of BG at 85...doesn't count as endgame, sorry.
    Please keep talking out of your behind. I've raided everything since MoM on my warden, and while the class has had its ups and downs, it has never been as strong as the period since we had our revamp in RoI, cutting back on DC the way I stated would not impact a good warden in a good raiding group's ability to down any content we have, and the same would have been true at 75. If you really feel you need this skill as much or more than it is available in its current form, the problem is with you.
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  16. #16
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    Sorry. For both PVP and PVE DC is a broken due being easily exploitable (and commonly so, sadly), and because of all the changes implemented in U6.

    It kinda feels like that when the entire warden community was screaming out because of the mit issues caused when RoI came out, our beloved old dev thought it was a good idea to make a band-aid out of an utter useless legendary trait. No tanks should need 30 seconds of 90% mits to deal with the hard stuff the game has to offer.

    Also, please don't forget to mention other Warden features such as the Crit. immunity buff. Anyone that plays a warden knows how wrong this buff is, even more nowadays since they changed critical defense.
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  17. #17
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    the sheild warden is OP.

    but tbh, I think creeps are too weak. they don't really have a good enough counter for self healing classes. really, there should be *something* one of the creep classes can do to nurf the serious contenders who self heal, or, just nurf freep healing in moors. they can't balance PvE healing against the low dps creeps do compared to that.

    who are the OP classes? the ones that self heal...

    whats the best creep counter for a self healing freep? a r7+ reaver lucky with impale to get it half way then devestating strike, and thats ignoring the fact many of the self healing classes have so much to counter that too.

    it used to be the defiler that completely counterd my warden, drained all my power in seconds if those flies court me kiteing. it's ironic, I complained once and the community bashed me for it. I understand it was a needed feature in the moors to keep wardens away demi-god mode

    it's just all a little, meh, balance it better please

    anyway, thats just throwing idea's against the wall and not completely serious.

    I quit my 9k moral, crazy dot recklessness warden when U10 made my dps feel crazy high and could blow up most classes very easily. those short fights where enemies just seem to blow up, just seems silly in moors where a majority of the time your running looking for a good fight (my server anyway) traiting shield for the few days I had a sub left for lols, I realise just how broke the warden was...
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  18. #18
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    Maybe just because my warden has not got the 'top-notch' end-game gear:

    I have never been able to solo a creep

  19. #19
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    The pvp in lotro is one of the most unbalanced pvp I have experienced so far. Warden are op in pvp and its quite obvious, but it doesn't stop there... Its not a pvp oriented game, thats for sure.

 

 

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