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  1. #1

    What To Do About Keep/Delving Buffs...

    I think in order to promote more group play, particularly raiding/groups, I think that Turbine should make it so that the keep/delving buffs make it so you need to be in a raid/group/small group to receive the renown/infamy/commendations benefits more heavily, depending on the size of course. I also believe that the % of what it gives right now should be nerfed across the board (5% from one keep, 5% from another, etc). This would also allow for rank integrity again, too, as 20%-30% infamy/renown/comm + x number of keep and delving buffs are just ridic and take away from the integrity coming with the acquisition of a hard-earned rank imo. There would be a cap to this.

    OR

    They could rid of those buffs completely, and make it so more the people you have in your group, the more infamy/renown/commendations you get. Of course, there would be a cap to this.

    What do you guys think?

    The only flaw I could see in it is there is a POSSIBILITY there could be some zergs here and there from time to time, but then again, it probably would promote group play on both sides, as many people just like to go about solo/smaller groups now, and get more infamy/renown/comms that way, but there is no real cohesion between the pvp community, and this can be bad for pvping in general. There have always been zergs regardless anyway, so nothing would change in that regard.
    Last edited by joshy8910; Jul 26 2013 at 12:30 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    I think in order to promote more group play, particularly raiding/groups
    Hold your horses. We want to have fewer raid zergs, not even more.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    I think in order to promote more group play, particularly raiding/groups, I think that Turbine should make it so that the keep/delving buffs make it so you need to be in a group/small group to receive the renown/infamy/commendations benefits more heavily.
    That is actually a really good idea. There are lots of things they could do if they could use the fact that we're fellowed and with how big the party is applied against different buffs and debuffs.

  4. #4
    Those renown/infamy are already there to compensate the points you get in large raids. Zergs dont need anymore promotion ty.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Hold your horses. We want to have fewer raid zergs, not even more.
    Btw, raiding/grouping doesnt=zergs. Whoever told you that needs to learn what he is talking about, or if you believe that. A zerg is when one side vastly outnumbers the other and just obliterates their opposition without much of a challenge, or want for one. My point being: zergs are gonna exist no matter what you do with pvp in this game, and I've come to terms with that as well, so that's why I provide that flaw.

    Quote Originally Posted by PuduBatt View Post
    Those renown/infamy are already there to compensate the points you get in large raids. Zergs dont need anymore promotion ty.
    I'm not trying to promote zergs, I'm trying to promote more cohesive group play, raid or just a tandem of fellowships. I'm a fan of 1v1ing above all else actually and hate zerging more than anything, but some people use 1v1ing to farm points quicker (with the outside help of OP/relic buffs to help them 1v1) due to these changes, thus it has killed cohesive group play more than helped. People that normally haven't 1v1ed before this expac are 1v1ing now because of the point changes, which has all but killed the integrity of 1v1ing. People that truly love to 1v1 in my mind are ones that do it for the fun and challenge, not for the points, which some people have resorted to. I simply stated that a zerg here and there may be a flaw, but it's a flaw that would be less prevalent than more due to the promotion of cohesive group play for both sides.

    Notice how I said I would want the point % to be nerfed per keep/delving buff, so you're not gonna get a ridiculous amount of points, but a sizeable amount, and would be better for more well-rounded pvp for everyone imo. Right now, it is skewed in that regard.

    I edited my original post under what the flaw could be.
    Last edited by joshy8910; Jul 25 2013 at 06:00 PM.

  6. #6
    How about not providing even more rewards to the playstyle that already has the odds stacked in their favor?



    Promoting rank integrity by only allowing inf/renown buffs while grouping? you've got to be kidding. I killed a warden on my warg the other day who has been out in the moors for about 2 or 3 weeks, and already has as much renown as mine. This person has 18k morale, was shield traited, running determination, and used never surrender. This was the first time I've ever seen them solo, and from what I saw, i'm not sure they actually know how to execute a gambit. There are a number of rank 10+ wargs on E who make 3 point turns in combat and seem to actively avoid attacking targets from behind. You want to protect the integrity of the ranks these players 'earned'?

    Wheres the integrity of my rank when I've had the fortune of finding another solo and am able to be winning the fight, when a raid walks by and lights the target up for the last 1k morale. Where's the integrity in me getting 9 infamy/renown for doing 95% of the work?

    Why can't we all be rewarded based on our contribution to a kill, whether its healing, dps, or CC?

    Whether someone is god's gift to their class, or the least skilled player out there, they should have the opportunity to compete against others in the format they find enjoyable, not because buffs promote one over another, and their rewards should reflect what they've contributed.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    The only flaw I could see in it is there would be some zergs
    There's already some zerging, making inf/renown buffs group only would mean there is only zerging.

    but some people use 1v1ing to farm points quicker (with the outside help of OP/relic buffs to help them 1v1) due to these changes, thus it has killed cohesive group play more than helped. People that normally haven't 1v1ed before this expac are 1v1ing now because of the point changes, which has all but killed the integrity of 1v1ing.
    It takes two to tango in a 1v1, if someone agrees to fight someone else when OPs at 4-0 that is their choice, either they aren't actually 1v1ing, or they're after a challenge: the former is called farming. If someone isn't giving 'fair' 1v1s, maybe don't 1v1 them?
    Last edited by spelunker; Jul 25 2013 at 06:04 PM.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    How about not providing even more rewards to the playstyle that already has the odds stacked in their favor?



    Promoting rank integrity by only allowing inf/renown buffs while grouping? you've got to be kidding. I killed a warden on my warg the other day who has been out in the moors for about 2 or 3 weeks, and already has as much renown as mine. This person has 18k morale, was shield traited, running determination, and used never surrender. This was the first time I've ever seen them solo, and from what I saw, i'm not sure they actually know how to execute a gambit. There are a number of rank 10+ wargs on E who make 3 point turns in combat and seem to actively avoid attacking targets from behind. You want to protect the integrity of the ranks these players 'earned'?

    Wheres the integrity of my rank when I've had the fortune of finding another solo and am able to be winning the fight, when a raid walks by and lights the target up for the last 1k morale. Where's the integrity in me getting 9 infamy/renown for doing 95% of the work?

    Why can't we all be rewarded based on our contribution to a kill, whether its healing, dps, or CC?

    Whether someone is god's gift to their class, or the least skilled player out there, they should have the opportunity to compete against others in the format they find enjoyable, not because buffs promote one over another, and their rewards should reflect what they've contributed.



    There's already some zerging, making inf/renown buffs group only would mean there is only zerging.
    You misinterpreted the post. What I mean by rank integrity is that for all branches of pvp: grouping, raiding, 1v1ing, is that it is not so easy to acquire due to the current system when you get rank so easily by having 20-30% renown/infamy/comms PER KEEP/DELVING BUFF, regardless of what you kind of pvp you are doing. That is rank integrity? Doesn't sound like it to me. This expac has made rank ridiculously laughable and easier than ever to get. There's integrity using those buffs in skewed, meaningless 1v1s from OP/relic buffs that can give you up to as much as 500 per kill? People just focusing on that aspect of "1v1ing" is killing pvp altogether, because people are so greedy for points and integrity with 1v1ing died because of that.

    Read my most recent post to see what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by joshy8910; Jul 25 2013 at 06:16 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post

    It takes two to tango in a 1v1, if someone agrees to fight someone else when OPs at 4-0 that is their choice, either they aren't actually 1v1ing, or they're after a challenge: the former is called farming. If someone isn't giving 'fair' 1v1s, maybe don't 1v1 them?
    Some have become more prudent to use "1v1ing" as a means of just acquiring rank faster, not for the challenge or fun of it. That kills pvp altogether if people are only focusing on one aspect of it that's not even being used for its original intention, and that was for the fun and challenge without points being important. Having 2-2 OPs hardly make for "fair" 1v1ing, fairest it can be, but far from fair, as the masteries skew the damage of what the original person could actually do, add on the fact that DR no longer causes stuns and other forms of cc to be shorter, which is only gonna make it so your killing your opponent faster and easier than you normally would without OPs. OPs/relic buffs need to go if you want real integrity of 1v1ing to come back imo, and this is coming from an avid 1v1er pre RoR that no longer plays because of this.
    Last edited by joshy8910; Jul 25 2013 at 06:17 PM.

  9. #9
    I edited my original post to provide more clarity of what I'm trying to convey. My apologies to those if it came off in a way that was not intended.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    Some have become more prudent to use "1v1ing" as a means of just acquiring rank faster, not for the challenge or fun of it. That kills pvp altogether if people are only focusing on one aspect of it that's not even being used for its original intention, and that was for the fun and challenge without points being important. Having 2-2 OPs hardly make for "fair" 1v1ing, fairest it can be, but far from fair, as the masteries skew the damage of what the original person could actually do, add on the fact that DR no longer causes stuns and other forms of cc to be shorter, which is only gonna make it so your killing your opponent faster and easier than you normally would without OPs. OPs/relic buffs need to go if you want real integrity of 1v1ing to come back imo, and this is coming from an avid 1v1er pre RoR that no longer plays because of this.
    And if people are only using 1v1 circles to rank and thus picking easy targets, or fighting when OPs are lopsided, or blowing cooldowns or skills that are bad manners, people should stop 1v1ing them. Just like I'm not going to run headfirst into a raid when I'm solo, I'm probably going to shake my head 'no' if some champ wants to 1v1 me after blowing all their bubbles to ensure a win the last time.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    And if people are only using 1v1 circles to rank and thus picking easy targets, or fighting when OPs are lopsided, or blowing cooldowns or skills that are bad manners, people should stop 1v1ing them. Just like I'm not going to run headfirst into a raid when I'm solo, I'm probably going to shake my head 'no' if some champ wants to 1v1 me after blowing all their bubbles to ensure a win the last time.
    See the point I'm trying to make though? It shouldn't have become like this. All the keep/delving/OP/relic buffs do is make it so some people will 1v1 for the wrong reasons, and then in doing that, will indirectly destroy the rest of pvp because they want easy points, because they don't want to group up as much since they are getting so many easy points from "1v1ing". Before this, if people were 1v1ing, you had a general consensus that they actually wanted to 1v1 for the challenge and fun of it, not because of the blown up renown/infamy/commendation gain you got from them, as well as the skewed buffs that enhance you to make it easier to 1v1.

  12. #12
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    I think you're forcing people to play a certain way. Turbine's generally followed a trend of wanting to allow folks to solo if they wish. 'Cohesive group play' is a wonderful goal, in my mind, but I think Turbine is not likely to make changes to 'push' us into it.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    See the point I'm trying to make though? It shouldn't have become like this. All the keep/delving/OP/relic buffs do is make it so some people will 1v1 for the wrong reasons, and then in doing that, will indirectly destroy the rest of pvp because they want easy points, because they don't want to group up as much since they are getting so many easy points from "1v1ing". Before this, if people were 1v1ing, you had a general consensus that they actually wanted to 1v1 for the challenge and fun of it, not because of the blown up renown/infamy/commendation gain you got from them, as well as the skewed buffs that enhance you to make it easier to 1v1.
    How is that any different than the people who will only come out if there is a raid to join, or will only stay in the raid (and in the moors) if their raid is winning?

    The infamy/renown bonuses effect does the same thing now whether you as 1v1ing or RvRing. 'back in the day' you got 100 points for a solo kill and 5 for a kill in a full raid (obviously i'm skipping how rating played into this). Now if you're getting 500 points for a 1v1 kill with all the buffs, you're getting 25 points for a kill in a full raid, the ratio is unchanged. I'm fine with the argument that the glory buffs are too significant, but they're either too significant for everyone, or no one.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirAndrose View Post
    I think you're forcing people to play a certain way. Turbine's generally followed a trend of wanting to allow folks to solo if they wish. 'Cohesive group play' is a wonderful goal, in my mind, but I think Turbine is not likely to make changes to 'push' us into it.
    I'd say decoupling damage done being the measure of what percentage of a kill's glory you recieved has already made a strong push towards a certain style of play.
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  14. #14
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    This is one of the worst ideas I have ever seen on these forums. Most of the changes since RoR made zerging the most rewarding play style for just about everything (hit something once and get full renown/inf, KB deeds just for tagging stuff etc.), it doesn't need to be made even more so.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by SirAndrose View Post
    I think you're forcing people to play a certain way. Turbine's generally followed a trend of wanting to allow folks to solo if they wish. 'Cohesive group play' is a wonderful goal, in my mind, but I think Turbine is not likely to make changes to 'push' us into it.
    I'm not forcing people to play a certain way, but the way some people play now using 1v1s to farm infamy/renown since they are much easier to participate in now makes it easier than usual. The current state and some people's unwillingness to play together won't help pvp.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    How is that any different than the people who will only come out if there is a raid to join, or will only stay in the raid (and in the moors) if their raid is winning?

    The infamy/renown bonuses effect does the same thing now whether you as 1v1ing or RvRing. 'back in the day' you got 100 points for a solo kill and 5 for a kill in a full raid (obviously i'm skipping how rating played into this). Now if you're getting 500 points for a 1v1 kill with all the buffs, you're getting 25 points for a kill in a full raid, the ratio is unchanged. I'm fine with the argument that the glory buffs are too significant, but they're either too significant for everyone, or no one.


    It's different as in they aren't easily farming renown/infamy off 1v1s because of skewed buffs to get rank relatively fast. Some people have always done what you're saying, but this is a whole new kind of monster that is afflicting 1v1s and pvp in general due to the current state of the moors.

    You can't compare a ratio of someone getting a 25 points for 1 kill in a raid to someone getting 500 from a 1v1 due to other factors. You're getting points from the 1v1s a lot quicker, from a shorter number of opponents, a la 1. Using your ratio, it would mean you'd have to get 20 kills in a raid before getting 500 from 1 person in a 1v1. See the skewed numbers? Because of that, more people that normally haven't 1v1ed before this expac will flock to where they can get the easier points. 1v1s shouldn't give that much infamy/renown. The points should be more dispersed for all sorts of action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    This is one of the worst ideas I have ever seen on these forums. Most of the changes since RoR made zerging the most rewarding play style for just about everything (hit something once and get full renown/inf, KB deeds just for tagging stuff etc.), it doesn't need to be made even more so.
    Well, some people are just soloing and not helping the situation, and when people on one side group up to zerg, the other side that is full of mainly soloers because of easier points will get rolled because they don't want to be cohesive and will log. So you think the current situation would be better than the one proposed? If you think this idea is worse than what's happening now, then I just don't know what you're looking at.
    Last edited by joshy8910; Jul 26 2013 at 12:29 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    I'm not forcing people to play a certain way, but the way some people play now using 1v1s to farm infamy/renown since they are much easier to participate in now makes it easier than usual. The current state and some people's unwillingness to play together won't help pvp.
    Why are 1v1s easier to participate in? I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, if people are continuing to fight someone who crushes them every time, they're either complicit in rank farming, or they think they're getting something out of it, its their choice.


    It's different as in they aren't easily farming renown/infamy off 1v1s because of skewed buffs to get rank relatively fast. Some people have always done what you're saying, but this is a whole new kind of monster that is afflicting 1v1s and pvp in general due to the current state of the moors.

    You can't compare a ratio of someone getting a 25 points for 1 kill in a raid to someone getting 500 from a 1v1 due to other factors. You're getting points from the 1v1s a lot quicker, from a shorter number of opponents, a la 1. Using your ratio, it would mean you'd have to get 20 kills in a raid before getting 500 from 1 person in a 1v1. See the skewed numbers? Because of that, more people that normally haven't 1v1ed before this expac will flock to where they can get the easier points. 1v1s shouldn't give that much infamy/renown. The points should be more dispersed for all sorts of action.
    I can and will compare getting 500 renown for a kill to getting 25 renown for a kill in a full raid. Back in the day, if you had a 1.0 rating, and your raid killed someone with a 1.0 rating, you got ~5 renown, and if you were solo against a solo, you got 100 renown. It took 20 kills in a raid to equal one solo kill. Multiply this out to the new bonuses that are possible, if you would get 500 renown off someone solo, your full raid gets 25 off of them, and guess what, it still takes 20 kills in a raid to equal what you get from one solo kill.



    Well, some people are just soloing and not helping the situation, and when people on one side group up to zerg, the other side that is full of mainly soloers because of easier points will get rolled because they don't want to be cohesive and will log. So you think the current situation would be better than the one proposed? If you think this idea is worse than what's happening now, then I just don't know what you're looking at.
    Again, why do people have to suffer a penalty because you want them to group up. If I want to stay solo and find other soloers, or find matchups in a 1v1 circle, why should I be penalized compared to the person grouping up? Maybe my computer screen turns into an etch-a-sketch when more than a couple freeps and creeps collide in combat, maybe I just don't like it.

    The changes with RoR have done more than enough to discourage soloing compared to before, there is no need for something like this.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Why are 1v1s easier to participate in? I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, if people are continuing to fight someone who crushes them every time, they're either complicit in rank farming, or they think they're getting something out of it, its their choice.
    Reasons why they are easier to participate in: Keep/delving buffs giving massive renown/infamy when you win. Attributing to that, the OP buffs make it easier for you to not rely on as much skill as before by doing more damage, and the DR change has made it easier for certain classes to win 1v1s.


    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I can and will compare getting 500 renown for a kill to getting 25 renown for a kill in a full raid. Back in the day, if you had a 1.0 rating, and your raid killed someone with a 1.0 rating, you got ~5 renown, and if you were solo against a solo, you got 100 renown. It took 20 kills in a raid to equal one solo kill. Multiply this out to the new bonuses that are possible, if you would get 500 renown off someone solo, your full raid gets 25 off of them, and guess what, it still takes 20 kills in a raid to equal what you get from one solo kill.
    Back in the day in prebk12 is what you're saying, yes. The math doesn't correlate to the actual pvp now though, it's a theoretical analysis based on what's happening now. Gaining upwards to 500 per 1v1 is an asinine number to receive from them, and it destroys the concept true 1v1s were based on, and just makes more appealing to people that like to farm for easy rank, whether they want to participate in fair fights or not, thus destroying rank integrity.





    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Again, why do people have to suffer a penalty because you want them to group up. If I want to stay solo and find other soloers, or find matchups in a 1v1 circle, why should I be penalized compared to the person grouping up? Maybe my computer screen turns into an etch-a-sketch when more than a couple freeps and creeps collide in combat, maybe I just don't like it.

    The changes with RoR have done more than enough to discourage soloing compared to before, there is no need for something like this.
    I'm not wanting/forcing them to group up, but the current state makes it so grouping is an unattractive option compared to before. These changes were intended to making grouping up more attractive, but have done the opposite, and have engendered a breed of farm-happy "1v1ers", which has destroyed the essence of pvp altogether. The changes I propose would make it so pvp was more well-rounded again, and people that actually 1v1 do it for the pure enjoyment of 1v1ing, not for the easy points, and while not receiving buffs to make them stronger in a 1v1, which is an underlying point to nontraditional people 1v1ing now as well. As an avid 1v1er before this expac, I find 1v1ing now has no sport to it and is distasteful, and sometimes done for the wrong reasons. I guess this is an esoteric point that only pure 1v1ers would understand.
    Last edited by joshy8910; Jul 26 2013 at 10:06 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    Reasons why they are easier to participate in: Keep/delving buffs giving massive renown/infamy when you win. Attributing to that, the OP buffs make it easier for you to not rely on as much skill as before by doing more damage, and the DR change has made it easier for certain classes to win 1v1s.
    You really don't see how you're using circular logic? If OPs are unfair, don't 1v1 someone. DONE. If someone is 'taking advantage' of the decoupling of DR, don't 1v1 them. DONE. No more people 'farming' rank at 1v1 circles.


    Back in the day in prebk12 is what you're saying, yes. The math doesn't correlate to the actual pvp now though, it's a theoretical analysis based on what's happening now. Gaining upwards to 500 per 1v1 is an asinine number to receive from them, and it destroys the concept true 1v1s were based on, and just makes more appealing to people that like to farm for easy rank, whether they want to participate in fair fights or not, thus destroying rank integrity.
    Or way back when during RoI. Everything gets fuzzy, when you throw rating into the old equation, but it was still working that way during RoI. You say 500 renown for a solo kill is asinine, I say 25 renown for a kill in a raid is equally asinine. The ratio for credit on a kill from a 1v1 kill is exactly the same now as it has always been, meaning people gain rank in a 1v1 circle at the same ratio compared to what they gain in a raid, nothing about these buffs has changed any of that.



    I'm not wanting/forcing them to group up, but the current state makes it so grouping is an unattractive option compared to before. These changes were intended to making grouping up more attractive, but have done the opposite, and have engendered a breed of farm-happy "1v1ers", which has destroyed the essence of pvp altogether. The changes I propose would make it so pvp was more well-rounded again, and people that actually 1v1 do it for the pure enjoyment of 1v1ing, not for the easy points, and while not receiving buffs to make them stronger in a 1v1, which is an underlying point to nontraditional people 1v1ing now as well. As an avid 1v1er before this expac, I find 1v1ing now has no sport to it and is distasteful, and sometimes done for the wrong reasons. I guess this is an esoteric point that only pure 1v1ers would understand.
    Grouping is just as attractive if not more than ever. The nature of the buffs mean a group even has more control over how well they rank. Sure most people can flip an OP if they think its unbalanced, or want OPs in their favor, but if a group/raid doesn't have the buffs they want, they can go get it, while some one at the 1v1 circle doesn't have this same choice.

    If your same group of 'farm-happy 1v1ers' existed in RoI, or SoM, or MoM, they would gain rank relative to a raider at the same pace they do now.
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  19. #19
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    'You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to spelunker again.'

    @OP: The subject is called 'economics', applied in this instance as to how humans will work to find personal benefit from a situation, unfortunately often at the expense of the whole (of which they are a part and a beneficiary). So much for human intelligence and ethics.

    I can appreciate and accept that you're well intentioned, but your idea to reward grouping will strongly preference raiding (and zerging) over small-group and solo play. So while you do not intend this, the human response to the situation equates to the same outcome.

    Nerf the outpost buffs some: sure.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    You really don't see how you're using circular logic? If OPs are unfair, don't 1v1 someone. DONE. If someone is 'taking advantage' of the decoupling of DR, don't 1v1 them. DONE. No more people 'farming' rank at 1v1 circles.
    It's not circular, it's plausible, and in some circumstances, correct, and yet some people are using them to their advantage. I'm not 1v1ing obviously as I'm not playing anymore due to the flawed mechanics. It's still going on without me being here fyi, doesn't mean it's gonna go away.



    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Or way back when during RoI. Everything gets fuzzy, when you throw rating into the old equation, but it was still working that way during RoI. You say 500 renown for a solo kill is asinine, I say 25 renown for a kill in a raid is equally asinine. The ratio for credit on a kill from a 1v1 kill is exactly the same now as it has always been, meaning people gain rank in a 1v1 circle at the same ratio compared to what they gain in a raid, nothing about these buffs has changed any of that.
    It is asinine. There's a difference in acquiring that much from raiding and acquiring that much from 1v1ing, from what you say from your proposed ratio (btw, I'm not doubting the math, just in the way it's being applied/correlated to the situation). People that 1v1ed before were not doing it for the loads of points, they were doing it for the challenge. You shouldn't get that much from 1 person in a 1v1, plain and simple. It takes multiple kills in a raid to equate to that number, it doesn't matter what the ratio says, I'm equating it to engendering well-rounded pvp , not math. Upwards to 500 infamy/renown per 1v1 is not going to create well-rounded pvp.




    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Grouping is just as attractive if not more than ever. The nature of the buffs mean a group even has more control over how well they rank. Sure most people can flip an OP if they think its unbalanced, or want OPs in their favor, but if a group/raid doesn't have the buffs they want, they can go get it, while some one at the 1v1 circle doesn't have this same choice.

    If your same group of 'farm-happy 1v1ers' existed in RoI, or SoM, or MoM, they would gain rank relative to a raider at the same pace they do now.
    It may seem that way, but it's not doing what it is intended to do. That's why I want to nerf the keep/delving buffs to 5-7.5% each, or make it so grouping provides a slightly better buff, as to eliminate such 1v1 circle atrocities. I think what I alluded to in my original post with nerfing of keep/delving buffs would take precedence over the latter suggestion, which is why I asked.

    They wouldn't exist in the previous expacs, because 1v1s weren't skewed in this regard. Why do you think it's happening at the pace it's happening now?

    I also proposed a while back they should add a separated, instanced arena for 1v1s, where no infamy/renown/commendations could be gained, but obviously that won't happen anytime soon :/. This situation would be avoided altogether if so, but I digress.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bootroz View Post
    'You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to spelunker again.'

    @OP: The subject is called 'economics', applied in this instance as to how humans will work to find personal benefit from a situation, unfortunately often at the expense of the whole (of which they are a part and a beneficiary). So much for human intelligence and ethics.

    I can appreciate and accept that you're well intentioned, but your idea to reward grouping will strongly preference raiding (and zerging) over small-group and solo play. So while you do not intend this, the human response to the situation equates to the same outcome.

    Nerf the outpost buffs some: sure.
    I understand what you're saying, that's why I suggested both in my original post, and it seems more are leaning towards the nerfing of Keep/delving buffs, which is what I'm leaning towards. It was nice to prompt this discussion. You're right in the regard that with the human response unfortunately. I'm not advocating zerging at all, just well-rounded pvp (raiding, small group, solo play), while providing a boost of renown/infamy/commendations that isn't "ill-gotten" receiving of rank in certain situations.

    I simply put the "flaw" I did because as to provide a negative effect of this, but zerging is going to happen regardless, it happens now, it happened before, and it would happen after.

    Thank you for realizing it's for the best intentions. I have no interest in seeing the degradation of pvp any further, and this is why I made this thread. The connotation of what I'm trying to get across may seem obscure, but I tried to make it in the most auspicious way possible for everyone invovled in pvp, either current or in the past such as I, to bring such people back for a more enjoyable experience.

    Destroy the outpost buffs completely: sure , or were you alluding to the keep/delving buffs? If so, I agree with the latter statement.
    Last edited by joshy8910; Jul 28 2013 at 05:03 AM.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    Attributing to that, the OP buffs make it easier for you to not rely on as much skill as before by doing more damage, and the DR change has made it easier for certain classes to win 1v1s.
    There were always classes that are easier, that's nothing new. How easy it maybe really is, depends on the "unwritten rules" - e.g. no stuns, big CDs, heals and for many classes it isn't that easy. Never heard that people do that anyway, on my server it's seen as extremely lame and noobish (to heal, stun, use big heals & CDs in a 1v1).

    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    ... and it destroys the concept true 1v1s were based on ...
    There was never such a concept. The moors are an open PvP zone, if they wanted 1v1 they had added something like an arena. 1v1 always was nothing more than a "gentleman agreement".

    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    I'm not wanting/forcing them to group up, but the current state makes it so grouping is an unattractive option compared to before.
    Sorry, grouping is unattractive? I hardly see anybody running solo anymore through the moors, no matter which side: freeps because they are mainly noobs and full of fear (or want easy kills if they are good) - creeps because they have actually a very tough time solo. For some creep classes solo play is suicide anyway.

    Then all the bonus effects: got 3 different zergs on the map? Well, simply group minstrels/defilers and get this way all the points made on the map. Nothing I haven't seen yet. Same with farming the zerg with a raid, big group. Oftern that's the zerg (over here): 6, 7 groups fighting, and maybe a few solos.

    Give better boni to groups than to soloists? Well, group up, go fighting - and leave your 5 companions in GV/Gram.

    You don't really change the actual situation with this. And the biggest problem 'bout the buffs isn't, that they are too mighty - it's that you can a) get them too easy and b) it's just PvE &&&& in a PvP zone. We waste 10 - 20 min per hour just for keeping the delving buffs or flipping keeps. That's what sucks - going in a PvP zone and doing PvE.^^

    Look at other (PvP) MMOs: Often it's no keep flipping, it's conquering! Actually you run into a keep (with a full raid), and in less a minute it's flipped. Same with delving bosses. Max their morale by x10 and it maybe takes a little longer or can't be done by a small group - or scale the bosses, if small groups complain about this, like: for everyone in the keep/next to the boss +100k/200k morale.

    Best thing I've read in this forum what to do 'bout the easy flip outposts: Combine a mastery/renown buff - means: If you flip them, you get the actual mastery buff - but also a renown debuff (well, let's say 30 %). Flipping outposts, no matter for which side, will become really unattractive, but still important. And this way each side can decide, if they want easy kills, but less points OR more renown and maybe die more often.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    134
    while i'm generally surprised that the op still argues spelunkers' points, I think in my 2-3 years on creepside i saw maybe once or twice were someone would continually 1v1 someone just to lose, while ive seen many people who only come out when the zerg came out on a weekly/ daily basis to zerg everyone for easy points when things were bad, atleast on my server people farming rank at a 1v1 circle isnt that rampant or isn't that obvious.

    *off topic* people don't use cd's and everything they got in 1v1's on other servers 0.o?
    on mine everything is fine to blow, all the bubbles in the world, last stand, wotc, spamming wl, mt, quitters never win, all the spam healing in the world, (whatever cds a warden has), and whatever cds any other class has and i see p2w pots being thrown in on the occasion.

    heck if the other person doesnt atleast blow some kind of cd's and a i win i feel like it was a cheap win.

    this problem of easy 1v1's isnt a problem on my server, but the grouping up thing might be XD
    crygin-R11 Warleader, dwarrowdelf

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by msr View Post
    *off topic* people don't use cd's and everything they got in 1v1's on other servers 0.o?
    Open yes, but not on our so called "duell meadow".

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Midgaardslang View Post
    There were always classes that are easier, that's nothing new. How easy it maybe really is, depends on the "unwritten rules" - e.g. no stuns, big CDs, heals and for many classes it isn't that easy. Never heard that people do that anyway, on my server it's seen as extremely lame and noobish (to heal, stun, use big heals & CDs in a 1v1).
    Some people on my server do, some don't. It has increased obviously for the want of easy renown, as rank integrity officially died with this expac. What I'm trying to convey is that: OP buffs make it easier for someone than it normally would. With the DR changes as well, you're burning down your opponent a lot faster, thus taking less skill, even if the OPs are "even".



    Quote Originally Posted by Midgaardslang View Post
    There was never such a concept. The moors are an open PvP zone, if they wanted 1v1 they had added something like an arena. 1v1 always was nothing more than a "gentleman agreement".
    To you, maybe. There were many people that believed in what 1v1s actually stood for before, unlike a lot of these new people that just like to "1v1". I'm well aware that this game's pvp was designed as an open pvp zone, but there was always an unspoken code that existed among true 1v1ers, until now where it has died.


    Quote Originally Posted by Midgaardslang View Post
    Sorry, grouping is unattractive? I hardly see anybody running solo anymore through the moors, no matter which side: freeps because they are mainly noobs and full of fear (or want easy kills if they are good) - creeps because they have actually a very tough time solo. For some creep classes solo play is suicide anyway.

    Then all the bonus effects: got 3 different zergs on the map? Well, simply group minstrels/defilers and get this way all the points made on the map. Nothing I haven't seen yet. Same with farming the zerg with a raid, big group. Oftern that's the zerg (over here): 6, 7 groups fighting, and maybe a few solos.

    Give better boni to groups than to soloists? Well, group up, go fighting - and leave your 5 companions in GV/Gram.

    You don't really change the actual situation with this. And the biggest problem 'bout the buffs isn't, that they are too mighty - it's that you can a) get them too easy and b) it's just PvE &&&& in a PvP zone. We waste 10 - 20 min per hour just for keeping the delving buffs or flipping keeps. That's what sucks - going in a PvP zone and doing PvE.^^


    Best thing I've read in this forum what to do 'bout the easy flip outposts: Combine a mastery/renown buff - means: If you flip them, you get the actual mastery buff - but also a renown debuff (well, let's say 30 %). Flipping outposts, no matter for which side, will become really unattractive, but still important. And this way each side can decide, if they want easy kills, but less points OR more renown and maybe die more often.
    It has become more unattractive than it was before, yes. This is coming from a guy that used to mainly 1v1, too. A lot of people, least on my server, use 1v1s as a means of easy rank, not trying to fight the toughest opponent, and even if they do, it gives them rank that shouldn't be acquired as easily as it should because of the changes. This destroys the well-roundedness in pvp in general due to the easiest that you can gain rank from this, thus people not choosing to group up as much. I agree with you about how stupid the PvE aspect of getting the OPs are.

    Quote Originally Posted by msr View Post
    while i'm generally surprised that the op still argues spelunkers' points, I think in my 2-3 years on creepside i saw maybe once or twice were someone would continually 1v1 someone just to lose, while ive seen many people who only come out when the zerg came out on a weekly/ daily basis to zerg everyone for easy points when things were bad, atleast on my server people farming rank at a 1v1 circle isnt that rampant or isn't that obvious.

    *off topic* people don't use cd's and everything they got in 1v1's on other servers 0.o?
    on mine everything is fine to blow, all the bubbles in the world, last stand, wotc, spamming wl, mt, quitters never win, all the spam healing in the world, (whatever cds a warden has), and whatever cds any other class has and i see p2w pots being thrown in on the occasion.

    heck if the other person doesnt atleast blow some kind of cd's and a i win i feel like it was a cheap win.

    this problem of easy 1v1's isnt a problem on my server, but the grouping up thing might be XD
    I argue his points because I don't agree with them, they aren't necessarily right. They are opinions, not everyone has to agree with them.

    Perhaps the person who was 1v1ing continually was trying to find a way to beat the person he was fighting because they were a challenge? I was guilty of that, but if I couldn't win on freep, I'd get more gear/traited; if I couldn't win on creep, I'd get more rank, simple. People now though use 1v1s moreso for easier ranks, and it destroys the all-around aspect that made pvp special.

    Off topic one: people on my server, least among the true 1v1ers, generally don't use cds. People not as familiar with them (1v1s) use them. Honestly, I never cared if someone used cds against me, it just would mean they weren't gonna get any better. General rule of thumb is: someone pops a cd on you, pop one right back. For me though, I would challenge myself further and not pop anything even if my opponent popped stuff, and I would win most of the time anyway due to being more skilled.

  25. #25
    Based on recent comments from Turbine, I'm feeling a little deflated. Discussing possible changes, while appealing to my creative side, just seems so pointless.

    Perhaps a few minor Outpost buff changes might slide into expansion. But it's pretty clear nothing of significance will happen for a very long time, if ever. Turbine doesn't even try to sugarcoat it or offer a ray of hope.

    So much potential squandered...
    Leafblade, Captain
    [IMG]http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/70969104/2532739[/IMG]

 

 

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