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  1. #26
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    One population solution would be for Turbine to allow Premium freeps into the Moors, but I think we can all agree that won't happen. I see threads all over the place by premium freeps asking for it. I'm sure that would fix the population problem if Moors ever came to be balanced. But like I said, I really don't see it happening.

    Darn flippers.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  2. #27
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    Interesting post, Sniz. That may ultimately be the unhappy solution. With classes that do not mirror one another, it is difficult to achieve perceived equality. I think part of the problem is the expectation that any class should be able to defeat any other class in a 1v1 and when that doesn't happen, there is a perceived imbalance. How do you calculate the power/potency of the WL area effect rez, creep mapins that can act as a rez if the fight is near a map in, warg Sprint, the impressive effects of WL banners that dwarf those of captain banners, the incoming heal and not debuffs, the higher morale totals, a full reflect skill, a burrow, and many of the other skills that are unique in one way or another from creep skill sets? On creepside, how do you factor in the painfully slow trek toward ranks that allow a decent skill set compared to freeps arriving with a full skill set, Captain Last Stand, the travel at horse speed, RK epic conclusion, Champion multiple bubbles, a warden designed in pve to have skills be more potent as the number of enemies nearby increases, LM stun immunity, and other skills that don't have an equal counterpart? Do you assign a numeric value to each and add up scores to see who is higher? That would be highly subjective at best.

    When they make changes, I hope they adjust the map mechanics to deal with a huge numbers imbalance as well. The current pop buff is a terribly inadequate bandaid for a raid of 24 fighting a raid of 48. That seems to be happening more often of late.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    One population solution would be for Turbine to allow Premium freeps into the Moors, but I think we can all agree that won't happen. I see threads all over the place by premium freeps asking for it. I'm sure that would fix the population problem if Moors ever came to be balanced. But like I said, I really don't see it happening.

    Darn flippers.
    That would only worsen the population problem, as creeps are the ones being currently outnumbered on many servers.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    That would only worsen the population problem, as creeps are the ones being currently outnumbered on many servers.
    You're still looking through this from the perspective that freeps will always be OP. How was the population balance on most servers before U10, when there was at least relative parity between the potency of each side? Creeps outnumbered freeps massively of course, since it required less effort to get a creep competitive in PvMP compared to a freep. No need to farm instances for LIs and jewelry, or crafting, just earn your audacity and be done.

    there is no reason to doubt if the pendulum swings back toward the center, creep populations will rise, and especially at the start of an expansion likely outnumber freeps heavily again. Opening the moors to premium players freepside means an influx of players for freepside, which could actually help balance the typical population imbalance that occurs when creepside is close to on par with freepside.
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  5. #30
    to be honest, pvp will never be balanced. Although I don't like that state of "many creeps vs few freeps" and balance around that... the idea of "1v1" balance will never work either. Because if things on 1v1 basis would be balanced, then most nights on some servers it'll become unplayable on some servers with massive creep masses, with few creeps it'll be unplayable for creeps... the balance of equal freeps vs creeps will never haver happen, unless pvp gets locks for example max 50 creeps and max 50 freeps.

    although any balance issues atm cannot be adressed before it becomes playable again :P with the huge lag, skill lag and bugging out of debuffs/dots it's becoming more and more unplayable.. wish they'd look at that. And then balance it 1v1 and maybe let go of the dot-based dmg of creeps and give em burst dps as well... get that issue out of the way too since it's hard to balance burst vs dot.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aineas. View Post
    let go of the dot-based dmg of creeps and give em burst dps as well... get that issue out of the way too since it's hard to balance burst vs dot.
    I'm not even sure it's burst vs dot. I'm looking at warden dots (I frequently end up with 2 for 1200 each plus one or two other smaller ones) and LM and Guardian dots that last over a minute now. I look at my dots and they are nowhere near that.

    It seems to be burst + dots vs weak creep stuff. If they want us dot based, give us warden type dots.
    Last edited by Ugmo; Jul 26 2013 at 09:09 AM.

  7. #32
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    Anyone who thinks that even before U10, creeps were as strong as or nearly as strong as freeps, has obviously never compared the stats of equal-rank freeps and creeps.

    I'll say it, for the third time, about the lore.

    Yes, the good guys generally win in the end where Tolkien is concerned.

    However....

    If PVP must follow the lore, then freeps must be denied the following things:

    1. Runekeepers,
    2. Lore-masters,
    3. NPC's (in the lore, the 'Coldfells Army' could not exist, as no such united force of all the races exists),
    4. Hoarhallow (the Ettenmoors is supposed to be unpopulated except for some trolls),
    5. DPS minstrels.

    Are you suuuuuure that you want PVP to follow the lore?

  8. #33
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    Or keep all that krap and give us Nazgul.

    If there can be thousands of heros on par with Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, why can't creeps have thousands of monsters on par with Nazgul?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpisaw View Post
    In the books and movies the good guys always beat the bad guys, that's how it's supposed to be, turbine knows this, that is why pvp is so unfair. It needs to be.
    Mwahhaha super tolkienite nerd here to bring lore to all of you people who use only 1 fight in all of tolkiens work for proof of your belief superiority and I mean on both sides of creep versus freep. If you ever read simarillion I suggest you bring tissues cause we lost a huge amount of the time(and I mean the goodguys got whupped). Elves were not nearly so op in fighting skills but were master guerilla warfare fighters, dwarves were the mighty armies not the gelflings. Also these hero's you use as examples are not you, how dare you use then as an excuse to give yourself an op ability's. You are NOT Gandalf or the mighty numenorian king of old who fought 3 balrogs at once and killed two before he was backstabbed. Now the average orc is weaker than man but guess what, in pvmp it is only 2 orcs and I am not the average orc, I am a lvl 85 orc and I want a little respect considering that some orcs were mighty warriors although I am not them keep your mind open. Others are uruks and animals. Also remember helm's deep where we saw a urukhai berserker kill two of the elven warriors with one hit, haldir was killed in that battle with one hit. Yes it was from behind with him but his defense was not stupid high like many freeps I have fought. Another point is that mankind would of lost if not for Sam(forget frodo, sam is the real hero here) Now yes I would say that in the lore that the goodies had a skill advantage but sadly there are not a dozen creeps to every freep and when I am on it is usually like 53 creeps to 50 freeps on a good day, sometimes it is mainly freeps and we might as well go poison worthless rivers. Yes you should have a slight advantage but not to the point I see, some of the freeps need to be nerfed while others need more stuff. I can kill hunters if I get close with one ally while Captain Crunch hardly loses any health.I am not Lurtz and you are not Aragorn. Nor are you Gandalf and I Sauron. We are warriors but not superheroes my friends and as much as I love lore you cannot run a pvmp on it if there is not a stupid amount of incentive for monsterplayers. I love the free peoples and hate orcs but this is how it is.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Anyone who thinks that even before U10, creeps were as strong as or nearly as strong as freeps, has obviously never compared the stats of equal-rank freeps and creeps.

    I'll say it, for the third time, about the lore.

    Yes, the good guys generally win in the end where Tolkien is concerned.

    However....

    If PVP must follow the lore, then freeps must be denied the following things:

    1. Runekeepers,
    2. Lore-masters,
    3. NPC's (in the lore, the 'Coldfells Army' could not exist, as no such united force of all the races exists),
    4. Hoarhallow (the Ettenmoors is supposed to be unpopulated except for some trolls),
    5. DPS minstrels.

    Are you suuuuuure that you want PVP to follow the lore?
    Well said. But remember that in Simmarillion the good guys got whupped a lot and that man would of lost if not for our favorite hobbits from the third age.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Yes, the good guys generally win in the end where Tolkien is concerned.
    And it usually requires divine intervention and at a great price.

    The Valar didn't show up until after the Noldor were utterly defeated by Morgoth.
    Sauron was pretty much winning every battle he fought until Gollum fell in Mt. Doom.

    Basically Tolkien subscribed to a Medievalist view (common from ancient till modern, or at least Victorian) "everything is going downhill. The future will always be worse than the past". The free peoples are losing.

    Galadriel: “Through the ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.”
    Tolkien:“I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect ‘history’ to be anything but a ‘long defeat’ — though it contains (and in a legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.”

    So the proper lore-accurate weighting of the scales would be to set it up so that the creeps have an obvious advantage and win the battles on the Moors, but the freeps will be declared overall victors by fiat right before the servers are turned off.

    -Note. I stay out of the Moors and just wish that any fixes used there wouldn't cause quest breaking bugs in the rest of Middle Earth.

  12. #37
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    This is a game. With paying customers. Anybody trying to say some them must pay to lose in predetermined fashion is not getting the big picture. They have as much a right to play to win as anyone and Lore arguments do not supersede that.

    The more my raids of 24 to 30 lose long battles to groups of 40 to 50 creeps, the more I wonder what kind of balance they want. I don't think simply adding some dps and healing output for creeps makes sense unless something more complex is done with the pop buff and the map. It may make things easier in 1v1s, which folks have a right to ask for, but it could make raids tough. The number of variables at play makes balance a blurry concept in Lotro Pvmp.

    Creep players probably will say 'it shouldn't take a numerical advantage to win a RvR battle'. I agree. Lotro should have no second class citizens. But the numerical advantage won't vanish when masteries and skills mirror one another. So what then?

    Until they make an instance, perhaps making use of the Delving or a Keep, to cap the number of entrants at 24, this major variable will likely always confound balancing efforts.

  13. #38
    What about servers where freep numbers sometimes are 3x of creep numbers? Tell this creeps they not need to have balance
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post

    4. Hoarhallow (the Ettenmoors is supposed to be unpopulated except for some trolls),
    I just re-read and I seem to remember something in the first few chapters about hobbits settleing in that area at one time.

    They are probably all supposed to be gone again, as you suggest, but could we really deny creeps the ability to troll punt hobbits across a river? That reason, alone, is enough to not follow the lore completely.

  15. #40
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    Guys, in order to understand why there's a disparity, you have to understand PVMP history.

    Vets help me out here. I wasn't around for all of this...

    Back in LOTRO's alpha there was no pvp. ME Enterprises, which provides the IP, told Turbine that it was against the lore to have free people do battle against one another (which was nonsense). So PvP was not to be in this game.

    The players weren't pacified by this and so by closed beta work began by one of Turbine's senior designers, Orion, to create some form of pvp that wouldn't cross ME's mandate regarding PvP and also wouldn't take up so many resources that LOTRO's launch was threatened or its budget increased too much.

    So, PvMP was born, a last minute side project shoehorned into open beta to at least in spirit quell the cries that LOTRO has NO pvp.

    That's why you hear the old timers say "This was never a pvp game (dagnabit!)"

    But the key points to take away from this development tale is the phrases "Last minute" and "shoehorned". And these two things are the reason there is no balance.

    Pvmp was designed to be a side game. And to me side game says playground for players. And in those days, players meant freeps.

    The cold hard truth is, we are designed to be freep punching bags. They just tried to justify that fact by saying well it took lots of creeps to kill a freep. But the truth is, I believe, that if they could have built us to be on par with the freeps in those early days, they would have.

    You may or may not know, creeps are not the same as freeps. They're actually built more like NPC's. That's why we don't have armor or vaults or mail or legendary items. We weren't built to have these things I would speculate because there wasn't time to create us that way nor was there probably a budget to do so.

    Creeps were a low budget rush job and to improve that would require tearing the entire system apart and rebuilding it. Who knows, maybe we'd lose all of our ranks or our identities, deeds, corruptions, etc if they did that and that's why they don't. Or maybe it'd just wouldn't be smart from a cost/benefit analysis perspective. Either way,

    So you're complaining about your core nature. You're essentially a basketball player complaining because hockey players get to use sticks and you can't. The cold hard truth is, if you don't like it, don't play basketball. But if you can just accept the differences and appreciate the benefits that the creeps do have, and not invest so much self worth into living or dying in a game where you are supposed to die, I think everyone would have a lot more fun.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TronGilrain View Post
    What about servers where freep numbers sometimes are 3x of creep numbers? Tell this creeps they not need to have balance
    Tron, it is the other side of the same coin. It's the same question: how do you balance when that huge variable exists? There obviously is a different story on every server, so whatever solution they choose must be flexible for a fluid situation.

  17. #42
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    If turbine ever created instances, the environment would be different. Though, it is likely in the current situation you would not find many creeps wanting to enter into a 3v3 with some deadly 3man creep combos. That would call for some more balancing. But to prevent a 24 creep raid charging into TA and getting counterattcked by 40+, a hybrid of open zone and instances could help. TA gets designated as a 24 person battleground and hen your raid enters, there is a message sent out to the zone that TA is being attacked and freeps have a minute to respond with an automated open group appearing in the fellowing window. The match instance starts in 60 seconds. One OP could be a designated 3v3, another designated as 6v6, and some targets designated for 6 or 12, with others being left open.

    It would change the dynamic of the Moors, and perhaps not for the best in the eyes of some, but it would add some structure and equity in numbers for some skirmishes when the overall numbers are uneven.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirAndrose View Post
    If turbine ever created instances, the environment would be different. Though, it is likely in the current situation you would not find many creeps wanting to enter into a 3v3 with some deadly 3man creep combos. That would call for some more balancing. But to prevent a 24 creep raid charging into TA and getting counterattcked by 40+, a hybrid of open zone and instances could help. TA gets designated as a 24 person battleground and hen your raid enters, there is a message sent out to the zone that TA is being attacked and freeps have a minute to respond with an automated open group appearing in the fellowing window. The match instance starts in 60 seconds. One OP could be a designated 3v3, another designated as 6v6, and some targets designated for 6 or 12, with others being left open.

    It would change the dynamic of the Moors, and perhaps not for the best in the eyes of some, but it would add some structure and equity in numbers for some skirmishes when the overall numbers are uneven.
    Again, its asking for something that is not in the nature of our system to do. Turbine has said, assuming it could be done at all, it would cost them more money to adapt even our existing skirmish system to pvp than it did to create the entire system in the first place.

    Let it sink in, creeps =/= player avatars.

  19. #44
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    I obviously don't have the grasp of the technical limitations of the creep setup that you do. I see them using a grouping system, entering session play, having access to custom trait setups, accumulating rank, changing appearances, and so on and assume they're capable of entering an instance. They can have items in bags but no equipment? Okay. They can trait different corruptions but not one called Legendary Item that has a subset of traits to mirror an LI customization? Or adjust their appearance yet again to add the legendary item change? Without a total recreation of the system? It's hard for many to know where the line is between minor and major changes.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirAndrose View Post
    I obviously don't have the grasp of the technical limitations of the creep setup that you do. I see them using a grouping system, entering session play, having access to custom trait setups, accumulating rank, changing appearances, and so on and assume they're capable of entering an instance. They can have items in bags but no equipment? Okay. They can trait different corruptions but not one called Legendary Item that has a subset of traits to mirror an LI customization? Or adjust their appearance yet again to add the legendary item change? Without a total recreation of the system? It's hard for many to know where the line is between minor and major changes.
    Yeah I really couldn't tell you as I don't have any grasp of the technical limitations any more than you or any other player does. I'm just regurgitating what devs have said over the years. For example, rather recently, probably since ROR Sapience iirc has repeated that creeps can't have mail because of the nature of creeps. Maybe whatever that means is what also prevents them from having LI's.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorwyn99 View Post
    Not gonna argue Freeps aren't op because they are but i have a honest question.

    How did you generally perceive the balance before U10, so ROR and U9 ?
    lotro has one of the most unbalanced pvp I have seen. It never has been, and probably never will be.

  22. #47
    LOTRO PvP was never designed to be competitive; it's an end-game reward and orc-corpses are the prizes.

    Seriously, if a game designer/developer builds a game where a level 85 stuns his opponent, then hits him for repeated 7K crits whereas the opponent is lucky if he can hit back once for, oh, 700 before dying because he's a level 0 and just starting to play PvP, then clearly there was never any intention of making the game actually fun except for the 7K per hit R-K who gets his kicks owning unsuspecting newbs.

    This is a stupid, badly designed game. World of Warcraft, despite its own problems, is way, way better.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newyorc View Post
    LOTRO PvP was never designed to be competitive; it's an end-game reward and orc-corpses are the prizes.

    Seriously, if a game designer/developer builds a game where a level 85 stuns his opponent, then hits him for repeated 7K crits whereas the opponent is lucky if he can hit back once for, oh, 700 before dying because he's a level 0 and just starting to play PvP, then clearly there was never any intention of making the game actually fun except for the 7K per hit R-K who gets his kicks owning unsuspecting newbs.

    This is a stupid, badly designed game. World of Warcraft, despite its own problems, is way, way better.
    You're doing it wrong.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreepHiveMind View Post
    You're doing it wrong.
    Yeah, obviously he shouldn't roll a creep.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  25. #50
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    People should stop playing creepside. This #### is ridiculous. The only way they will attempt to make things even is if they see that no turbine points are being used for creeps. Boycott is the only way. Maybe the Freepside PvPers will then QQ for things to become as close to even as possibly to get PvP back. I play both sides and I find myself not having any fun playing creepside. You can't even think about fighting a warden, champ, or LM. They have to be terrible players for you to have a chance to win.

    I used to think RoR was about equal to early Moria but it is much more worse for creeps than it was then.

 

 
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