Really getting tired of this...

[Rakanor]

I’m getting tired of hearing this on the forums…

Firstly the idea that creeps are supposed to be weaker than freeps and need to have much higher numbers in order to beat freeps.

This was the idea that creeps were built on in SoA, with the release of MoM they changed that idea. The following is from MoM dev diary (http://archive.lotro.com/gameinfo/de...ements?start=3)

“The above changes will shift combat dynamics in PvMP fairly significantly. The old rule of “many Creeps to a Freep” has been put into the recycle bin. The new goal with these changes is to put monster players on par with Free Players, which we hope will result with a more entertaining combat experience and less reliance on needing high population in order to compete.”

Since then it has supposed to be roughly 1 freep to 1 creep not 1 freep to many creeps. So freeps, stop thinking you are supposed to be stronger than a single creep, this is not the intended balance. I know it hasn’t really ever been like that but that is how it is supposed to be. I know following lore, ‘creeps’ had a huge numerical advantage but this is a GAME they tried to move away from one to many because it’s just not practical for creeps to always have enough players.


Secondly I hear a lot of people saying that they should adjust balance by altering creeps only. This is due to the fear that they will get their classes nerfed in pve because of pvp reasons.

While I agree freep classes should not be altered in pve for pvp reasons. They can be altered in pvp for pvp reasons, this is one of the functions of the monster play buff which gets automatically applied to you when you come to moors on freep. Some freep skills are already deactivated/changed and others could also be altered for balancing purposes.

Yes you could give all the abilities freeps have to creeps and then you could allow all the skills to function as they would in pve. However some skills are just not suited for a pvp environment.

[Selebrimbor]

I know that feeling bro, it is annoying to have freeps using that as an excuse (it's a bad one) for their current state of being OP.
But what can you expect? They did the same thing during RoI. I surely expected nothing different during RoR.

I've always liked the MP Buff idea.

[SirAndrose]

Good post, Rak.

I was unaware Turbine had ever had a 'many creeps to a creep' idea. What a terrible idea for a game to have.

I largely play free people side but fully agree with your post.

[BiteMarks]

...................

“The above changes will shift combat dynamics in PvMP fairly significantly. The old rule of “many Creeps to a Freep” has been put into the recycle bin. The new goal with these changes is to put monster players on par with Free Players, which we hope will result with a more entertaining combat experience and less reliance on needing high population in order to compete.”

.............................. ....

I remember those words and truely had high hopes of it and, for a very short time, creeps had closed the gap between the freeps and creeps yet once again, many many QQ'ers resulted in any improvements to us creeps being well and truely nurfed back without a slight decrease to freeps when infact with each subsquent update, freeps got stronger and stronger and now it takes a small army to down one freep at times.

I do not expect this to change and to only get worse when Helms Deep gets released with the so-called freep class revamp. THe gap will become so much wider in favour of them and feel that when this happens, it could break the Moors entirely.

All those long standing creep players, all those full time creeps will become dis-illusioned at this and all the previous 'promises' of being looked after and the gap hugely reduced, failing to happen will now leave the game, creating an empty map for freps to roam in and only having low ranked creeps being farmed and nothing left to fight.

Helms Deep and the freep class revamp will kill the Moors especially as it'll probably take until early 2014 that creeps will get any love and attention thrown at them and then it will only be a token gesture from Turbine which, no doubt, will be QQ'd by freeps on forums, which in turn will be then nurfed so that the huge gap remains.

Turbine, either stand by your words and promises and make it fair for us creeps to play or do nothing as usual and kill the Moors completely

[Thorwyn99]

Not gonna argue Freeps aren't op because they are but i have a honest question.

How did you generally perceive the balance before U10, so ROR and U9 ?

[Grumpisaw]

In the books and movies the good guys always beat the bad guys, that's how it's supposed to be, turbine knows this, that is why pvp is so unfair. It needs to be.

[Toast3569]

In the books and movies the good guys always beat the bad guys, that's how it's supposed to be, turbine knows this, that is why pvp is so unfair. It needs to be.

I've heard this before and it's completely incorrect.

The Ettenmoors are supposed to be constantly contested where there really is no 'winner'. It's an open battleground with both sides fighting for and struggling to maintain control of key locations. Think about Osgiliath. Sauron's forces took it over and forced the Gondorian forces to flee back to the city. While the free peoples do eventually win in the end, there is a lot of contention over strongholds and entire chunks of Middle-Earth while the ring is being carried to Mordor. The Ettenmoors is one of those places.

[SirAndrose]

In the books and movies the good guys always beat the bad guys, that's how it's supposed to be, turbine knows this, that is why pvp is so unfair. It needs to be.

Well not always. There are lots of instances where the bad guys won...the battle if not the war.

Black Riders force Gandalf to retreat from Weathertop.
Watcher in the Water forces Fellowship to retreat into Moria.
Orcs kill Theodred.
Orcs make Aragorn and company retreat from walls of Helm's Deep.
Orcs kill Boromir.

But ultimately, good guys will win. It must really bug creeps that Merry interfered with the Witch King 's 1v1 with Eowyn.

[Ugmo]

In the books and movies the good guys always beat the bad guys, that's how it's supposed to be, turbine knows this, that is why pvp is so unfair. It needs to be.

Actually I did like that part of the book. It was when Gandalf was under heavy attack, so he summoned his small group of good guy Runekeepers and all these cross dressing elves showed up and started shooting lightning out of their fingertips and drove off the hordes of bad guy orcs....good stuff.

[Toranoga]

The only reason the Good side won was because Smeagol fell into Mount Doom. Otherwise we'd all speak Orc.

[Selebrimbor]

In the books and movies the good guys always beat the bad guys, that's how it's supposed to be, turbine knows this, that is why pvp is so unfair. It needs to be.

While it is true that the forces of Sauron do lose in the end, there were many hotly contested battles....places like Osgiliath and Ithillien come to mind...even Minas Tirith was in danger until Aragorn arrived with the Army of the Dead. With Moors in it's current state, it's a cakewalk for Freeps right now.

To sum up what I'm trying to say, I don't expect complete balance. The current system is just really really bad xD.

[Squelcher]

The most amusing excuse freeps use for being OP is the lore. They say that the lore indicates that the heroes are always greater than the villains.

That's fine. But then hand over your RKs, your Lrms, and every single freep NPC in the Moors as they do not follow the lore in the slightest.

[KillGore81]

many many QQ'ers resulted in any improvements to us creeps being well and truely nurfed back without a slight decrease to freeps...

Next on the list of what's tiresome to hear over and over and over again. "We got nerfed because people QQ'd".

Look, Turbine just IS NOT good at developing a good pvp game. It goes without saying that, with each new expansion and update, freeps are going to get many many new toys, making them much stronger. Turbine just lacks the know how to adjust creeps accordingly. So what you seem to think is a nerf is more a case of creeps just being left by the wayside.

They don't listen to it's player base when it comes to helping make the game better. Do you honestly think they solely give in to the whining to make it worse? They just don't listen at all one way or the other. Take a small bit of consolation in that.

[spelunker]

Not gonna argue Freeps aren't op because they are but i have a honest question.

How did you generally perceive the balance before U10, so ROR and U9 ?

It was halfway decent up till u10. A couple freep classes (warden and LM) were head and shoulders above creeps, but when you took their 5 and 10 minute cooldown skills off the table, most other freep classes with 2nd age LIs and skraid jewelry were about on par with creeps.

This is not to say everything was perfect, but it was the best i've seen since RoI was released, by far.

[Toranoga]

Next on the list of what's tiresome to hear over and over and over again. "We got nerfed because people QQ'd".

Look, Turbine just IS NOT good at developing a good pvp game. It goes without saying that, with each new expansion and update, freeps are going to get many many new toys, making them much stronger. Turbine just lacks the know how to adjust creeps accordingly. So what you seem to think is a nerf is more a case of creeps just being left by the wayside.

They don't listen to it's player base when it comes to helping make the game better. Do you honestly think they solely give in to the whining to make it worse? They just don't listen at all one way or the other. Take a small bit of consolation in that.

Weaver's 16 second unbreakable web...

BA's stack-able fire DoTs...

PPPPPP...

[Nyrion]

Well stated OP. It's sad that these things actually need to be explained at all, since much of it seems like common sense.

The Lore argument particularly ticks me off, as it's usually made by people who know little to nothing about PvP and don't partake in it themselves. Ignorance is forgivable, but the mere suggestion that 'one freep to multiple creeps' can possibly be a valid design decision is utterly asinine thinking.

Next on the list of what's tiresome to hear over and over and over again. "We got nerfed because people QQ'd".

Look, Turbine just IS NOT good at developing a good pvp game. It goes without saying that, with each new expansion and update, freeps are going to get many many new toys, making them much stronger. Turbine just lacks the know how to adjust creeps accordingly. So what you seem to think is a nerf is more a case of creeps just being left by the wayside.

They don't listen to it's player base when it comes to helping make the game better. Do you honestly think they solely give in to the whining to make it worse? They just don't listen at all one way or the other. Take a small bit of consolation in that.

I have to disagree with this. Turbine HAS proven that they can listen to the PvP community(yes, even Creeps) and make good changes accordingly. I would note the Warg and Weaver revamps back in Update 6 for this. I especially liked the Weaver one, as it included a whole new class mechanic(Venom) that added complexity without making it overly so. Also, having been in the RoR Beta there was a good amount of back and forth for Creep class changes over that period. Not perfect, certainly, but not dreadful either.

And that's what frustrates me more than anything else. They are capable of doing good work, and have done so in the past, but these good changes take so incredibly long to come about, and then taking into account them making the exact same mistakes year after year(not scaling creeps as freeps get better gear for example), which makes the said changes sometimes not satisfactory when they finally get implemented.

[KillGore81]

Weaver's 16 second unbreakable web...

BA's stack-able fire DoTs...

PPPPPP...

DF...

Chain mezzing creeps for 30 seconds each application with no dr...

CJ's altogether...

Nerfs? Nope. Well needed changes? Yep.

[l4j]

In the books and movies the good guys always beat the bad guys, that's how it's supposed to be, turbine knows this, that is why pvp is so unfair. It needs to be.

Highlighting "It needs to be."

This is so wrong on so many levels . . . .

In the Tolkien lore, yes. The small band of intrepid adventurers stand against overwhelming odds and defeat the forces of Evil, emerging triumphant at the end to bring light and peace to Middle Earth.

That's great. It makes for an epic story. And the Freeps get a taste of it in the main Epic Story lines in the main game. They literally follow in the footsteps of the Fellowship, changing light bulbs and delivering sandwiches in Moria. It is the main game: Playing the Epic Hero, the inspiration for story and song.

But the 'Moors ain't the main game.

The design concept of "You'll be whimpy, but you'll have lots of friends at your side!" doesn't play well. No one wants to be cannon fodder. No one wants to wear the Red Shirt. PvP games need to have some sort of balance, because people tire very quickly of always losing. And we're not talking about losing because of the learning curve here. We're talking about losing because the game is mechanically stacked against you.

[wretchesandkings]

pvp is about gameplay, not the lore (for the most part anyway, obviously lore is still required so we don't have anything stupidly ridiculous). Now go back to your pve silly questers.

[poxnoxious]

Actually I did like that part of the book. It was when Gandalf was under heavy attack, so he summoned his small group of good guy Runekeepers and all these cross dressing elves showed up and started shooting lightning out of their fingertips and drove off the hordes of bad guy orcs....good stuff.

Aye, prolly me fav. bit of the books that. That and the bit where Gandalf opens the gate to another world and summons Achilles and clones him endlessly, shield and spears aready!

OP: Good of ye to throw this out there Raka. Unbelieveable it's even necessary. Common sense seems less and less common these days. :P

[joshy8910]

Leave it to Turbine to keep flip flopping their statements. This is why I never believe anything they say when it comes to pvp anymore. They are worse than politicians sometimes. Good on the OP for finding something to point out Turbine's flaws that they were much need of.

[Kate00]

While I love things being on par with the lore, in terms of pvp its just no fun for there to be one for many.
As an example: how many creeps should it really take to kill one warden?
Its an aweful excuse to say many creeps for 1 freep. Its not any fun as a creep and most certainly not any fun for me as a freep.

[Sniz]

It's easy to say "the sides should be equally balanced" but you're forgetting about population imbalance. RoR was perhaps the best equality between the sides we've ever seen, and the result was a total disaster. Freepside got crushed because creeps almost always outnumber freeps.

So unless you want to set a fixed equal number of players on each side, the real issue of equality is how to deal with population imbalance. Turbine has never hinted at considering instanced PvP that guarantees equal population, and I think most people don't want it. Given a zone open for any and all to walk in and join the fight, in a perfect world the technology would adjust for population imbalance and do things like:

- Adjust the pop buff, localized to an area of fighting, not just zone-wide.
- Adjust the points reward system also localized to an area of fighting, so that, for example, a zerg got no points.
- Adjust the map buffs to also help, not hurt, population differences.

I doubt the technology, or the developer resources, exist to do these things. So it's likely that moors balance will be based on the six or so years of lessons we've learned. Creeps will continue to outnumber freeps, and therefore freeps will remain stronger individually than creeps (obviously not to the current laughable extent).

The moors will remain a game of freep individual superiority versus creeps ability to fight as a group. Well, I should say "go back to", since right now freeps are superior in both.

[CreepHiveMind]

Snip

Nizzy misses Snizzy <333 (Also, while region based pop buffs are a good idea, they will cause issues and lag due to server line battles )


On topic, balance is a rediculous term for an mmo. You want PvP "balance"? Make PvP even numbers with the same characters sporting the same stats, gear and skills. That will get you balance. And bordeom. If anything, I would like to see more complexity for creepside, and difficulty in that complexity to allow better players a greater edge (in an RvR setting, of course)

As long as freeps never reach Moria launch or RoI levels again, I will be happy. PvP here is what you make of it, and how you approach it. Adopt adapt and improve. Personally, being the underdog is far more rewarding, makes every victory all the sweeter. Rather than whining for balance, perhaps try pushing your class to its limits, and/or helping others do so with theirs; you'll be surprised at what you can achieve.

[Thorwyn99]

It's easy to say "the sides should be equally balanced" but you're forgetting about population imbalance. RoR was perhaps the best equality between the sides we've ever seen, and the result was a total disaster. Freepside got crushed because creeps almost always outnumber freeps.

So unless you want to set a fixed equal number of players on each side, the real issue of equality is how to deal with population imbalance. Turbine has never hinted at considering instanced PvP that guarantees equal population, and I think most people don't want it. Given a zone open for any and all to walk in and join the fight, in a perfect world the technology would adjust for population imbalance and do things like:

- Adjust the pop buff, localized to an area of fighting, not just zone-wide.
- Adjust the points reward system also localized to an area of fighting, so that, for example, a zerg got no points.
- Adjust the map buffs to also help, not hurt, population differences.

I doubt the technology, or the developer resources, exist to do these things. So it's likely that moors balance will be based on the six or so years of lessons we've learned. Creeps will continue to outnumber freeps, and therefore freeps will remain stronger individually than creeps (obviously not to the current laughable extent).

The moors will remain a game of freep individual superiority versus creeps ability to fight as a group. Well, I should say "go back to", since right now freeps are superior in both.

This is actually why i asked about perceived balance.
I would say balance overall was better during ROR, but perceived advantage was on the creep side due to a general numbers advantage.

That again lead alot of the people that just want it easier to switch to creep side (Much easier to switch from freep to creep than vice versa)
leading to a situation being similar to now just from the other side. Which is not more desirable :P.
The same people mostly came back to freep side after U10 making the balance again even worse.

That's the problem PMVP will also have while the setup and acess of the moors is so vastly different on the 2 sides it is really hard to impossible to find a balance.