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  1. #1
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    The double edged sword of open tap

    Before I tell my tale, please note that I am not trying to get this feature removed. Just some thoughts I have on it. (Edit)
    Since many have come into the thread and used it as a way to defend open tapping, know this: I am not attacking it. What I am looking for is stories where players have met other new players before and after the system. I care less about the nuances and mechanics of the system. I know all too well that competing for mobs is rubbish. (end edit) Now for my well thought out post:

    One of the things I love about MMO's is rolling an alt and doing some leveling. Why do you ask?
    Well, I like finding new questing buddies. Even though I have level capped toons, sometimes I get
    more enjoyment by doing some low level quests and meeting newbies on the landscape. This sometimes
    even develops into a questing buddy scenario.

    I must say if open tapping existed during my first year in Warcraft, I probably would not still be
    playing MMO's. I remember back to the time I met my first questing buddy. He was a level 37 hunter on
    the Elune server. How did we meet you may ask? We were waiting for the same mob to respawn. Then
    we were forced to group up to both get credit for that quest. I quested with that hunter for 33 more levels.
    Then I did many dungeons and endgame content with that hunter.

    After he left the game I met a level 23 shadow priest which I leveled a new alt with for 57 levels.
    Together we met others along the way and it was fun to have several characters at the same level questing
    and completing on level content. Out of all the time I spent raiding in WOW and doing guild runs, my fondest
    memories are of these questing buddies that I met solely because we needed the same mob.

    When I began playing lotro I finally reached level 46. I was questing in Angmar on my burg, and a hunter was
    killing the merroval that I needed. He was struggling with one and I was able to cc the mob so he could escape.
    We then joined group so we could take them on together. 19 levels later we were at cap and doing 3/6 man content
    together.

    There was also another hunter coicidentially that was leveling through mirkwood when level 75 was cap. I quested
    with him for 13 levels.

    I have tried this 4 times since open tapping. Roll my low level alt and scower the landscape trying to find
    that elusive quest buddy. The result was 2 level 85 toons that did not quest significantly with any one player.

    Usually when I meet these quest buddies (aside from the first one) I have more experience in the game and I can craft
    them some awesome gear, offer advice on classes, etc. I find this aspect of the mentor to be a great part of
    MMO's in general.

    I don't believe this is the only way to meet lowbies. I have met some through my kin. It seems though that the random
    players I have met through non open tap have been more lasting relationships. Where my latest questing buddy lasted
    a mind numbing 8 levels.

    Thoughts are welcomed.
    Last edited by Minquinn; Jul 24 2013 at 10:32 AM.

  2. #2
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    I, too, would likely be long gone from LOTRO if there had been open tapping at the beginning. Plague-Bearer of the North is where I met my future kinmates, who have become out-of-game friends as well.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  3. #3
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    I personally like it because I don't have to keep waiting on mob re-spawns.

    I don't have any problems meeting new people and making new friends WITHOUT grouping I'm just that special, I guess.
    Last edited by Graycient; Jul 23 2013 at 01:34 AM.

  4. #4
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    OP I thought you left the game? What made you return? Just curious b/c you play on my server & I remember you saying you were leaving.
    [color=purple]Cefely Elenhilde of Rivendell, lvl 85 Hunter;[/color][color=turquoise] Nenriel Lirulind of Lorien, lvl 85 Minstrel;[/color][color=hotpink] Cherrie Berry of the Fallohides, lvl 85 Burglar;[/color][color=green] Harloe Palohelm of Rohan, lvl 85 Warden;[/color][color=red] Ayan Anfalase of Gondor, lvl 85 Captain;[/color][color=yellow] Onja Anfalase of Gondor, lvl 83 Champion[/color]
    [color=cyan]Leader of founding Kinship Elenhilde on Meneldor[/color]

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graycient View Post
    I think Turbine is confusing MMOs with solo RPGs.
    If they are, the solo play they offer is quite inferior to other solo RPG's. Games like Dragon's Dogma, Dragons Age, Skyrim, etc. are the leaders in this market. Most of that is console based product. Most of those games offer a co-op option. This means grouping is still an option in even single player online rpg's. Look at Monster Hunter, Final Fantasy and Fable. I believe both have options for co-op.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cefely View Post
    OP I thought you left the game? What made you return? Just curious b/c you play on my server & I remember you saying you were leaving.
    I have taken an indefinite break. I have yet to return since sometime end of June. I would love to return.

    What made me leave?
    1. Group content not being up to snuff
    2. A horrible loot system that encourages "farming"
    3. The same Hytbold hamster wheel.

    If those items are addressed I would love to come back. Where did we meet in kin, through the kin alliance or in a group?
    As one of the main tanks for my kin and many times in the alliance I met a ton of people.

    If you wanna catch up sometime I am currently auditioning Neverwinter and Rift.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    I have taken an indefinite break. I have yet to return since sometime end of June. I would love to return.

    What made me leave?
    1. Group content not being up to snuff
    2. A horrible loot system that encourages "farming"
    3. The same Hytbold hamster wheel.

    If those items are addressed I would love to come back. Where did we meet in kin, through the kin alliance or in a group?
    As one of the main tanks for my kin and many times in the alliance I met a ton of people.

    If you wanna catch up sometime I am currently auditioning Neverwinter and Rift.
    Honestly, I do not believe we ever met in-game. I just remember reading your posts on the forums & noticing you were on Meneldor as well. Your points for taking a leave are definitely valid, imo & I agree even though I mostly log on to run solo stuff & still enjoy the mindless time-kill, I guess. I just feel that an MMO cannot survive unless they offer satisfying content for more than one playstyle. I had to go through the death of AC2, after having a large, successful kin there & it is starting to feel the same here, blehhh.

    I do not like that Lotro has completely abandoned the raiding/kin grouping aspect of this game, even if I never got fully into it. My kin once dabbled in group instances now & then & now it seems we are down to single-digits for log-ins. Sure wish they would once again offer awesome content for all play-styles before it just completely fizzles out. Been there, don't really want to go through it again.

    Hope you have a reason to come back someday!
    Last edited by Cefely; Jul 23 2013 at 02:11 AM.
    [color=purple]Cefely Elenhilde of Rivendell, lvl 85 Hunter;[/color][color=turquoise] Nenriel Lirulind of Lorien, lvl 85 Minstrel;[/color][color=hotpink] Cherrie Berry of the Fallohides, lvl 85 Burglar;[/color][color=green] Harloe Palohelm of Rohan, lvl 85 Warden;[/color][color=red] Ayan Anfalase of Gondor, lvl 85 Captain;[/color][color=yellow] Onja Anfalase of Gondor, lvl 83 Champion[/color]
    [color=cyan]Leader of founding Kinship Elenhilde on Meneldor[/color]

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graycient View Post
    I personally like it because I don't have to keep waiting on mob re-spawns.

    I don't have any problems meeting new people and making new friends WITHOUT grouping I'm just that special, I guess.
    i agree, especially when there are high lvl players grinding tp in the area
    Flixxer - Hunter - Imladris - 100 R7 ---- Danielleth - Minstrel - Imladris - 22
    Zaireth - Rune-keeper - Imladris - 73 -- Ariannasophia - Warden - Imladris - 14
    Flixxer - Champion - Eldar - 54

  9. #9
    I never really thought about that, but OP is right. I met a group during SoA days questing in the southern Barrow-downs. I was killing Hurons for something that dropped. They were killing HUorns for the other thing that dropped from them. I can't even recall what those items were at this point, other than I think they were crit items or something that has since been converted into vendor trash. Anyway, we got to talking, and agreed that we'd keep clearing trees and then trade the resources that each of us didn't need. Afterwards I joined their kin, and we still play together all of these years later.

  10. #10
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    Pleasant story, but unfortunately for every one of those there are a dozen others of people jumping in at the last second to get the tap on a boss mob with a long respawn timer, or people completely clearing out an area before you even get a chance to tap one, as happened so very often before Rohan.

    Certainly Open Tapping is not a perfect mechanic, but overall I'd say the pros outweigh the cons.

  11. #11
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    Nothing's ever perfect, but on balance I prefer open tapping.

    Some areas are more prone to the closed tapping issues than others, but taking the example of the Low Lands. Just about every camp, dungeon or fortress I was sent to had a "big boss" to kill. Some I had a clear run at, some I had to wait for respawns, a couple I had to wait for multiple respawns as a fellowship (all in the same kinship) killed the boss over and over again, while their level 65+ nursemaid sat around looking bored. Under open tapping we'd all have been out of there a lot quicker, I'm no power leveller but waiting in line while an inconsiderate fellowship hogs the mobs and bosses isn't fun.

    Same problem in Dol Dinen with the named overseers/generals, Red Swamp, Harloeg (sp), Barrow Downs dungeons.......

    Whereas in Rohan and Wildermore being able to log in, and chase warbands without the waiting around and potential drama of forming groups, is really refreshing. Turn up, hit the bad thing. Just as you would do in "reality".

  12. #12
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    My intentions with this thread was more of this:

    Quote Originally Posted by kmcferrin View Post
    I never really thought about that, but OP is right. I met a group during SoA days questing in the southern Barrow-downs. I was killing Hurons for something that dropped. They were killing HUorns for the other thing that dropped from them. I can't even recall what those items were at this point, other than I think they were crit items or something that has since been converted into vendor trash. Anyway, we got to talking, and agreed that we'd keep clearing trees and then trade the resources that each of us didn't need. Afterwards I joined their kin, and we still play together all of these years later.
    And less of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Damojo View Post
    Nothing's ever perfect, but on balance I prefer open tapping.

    Some areas are more prone to the closed tapping issues than others, but taking the example of the Low Lands. Just about every camp, dungeon or fortress I was sent to had a "big boss" to kill. Some I had a clear run at, some I had to wait for respawns, a couple I had to wait for multiple respawns as a fellowship (all in the same kinship) killed the boss over and over again, while their level 65+ nursemaid sat around looking bored. Under open tapping we'd all have been out of there a lot quicker, I'm no power leveller but waiting in line while an inconsiderate fellowship hogs the mobs and bosses isn't fun.

    Same problem in Dol Dinen with the named overseers/generals, Red Swamp, Harloeg (sp), Barrow Downs dungeons.......

    Whereas in Rohan and Wildermore being able to log in, and chase warbands without the waiting around and potential drama of forming groups, is really refreshing. Turn up, hit the bad thing. Just as you would do in "reality".
    No where do I state above that the old system should be instituted.

    This is evidenced by the first sentence in the post
    Before I tell my tale, please note that I am not trying to get this feature removed. Just some thoughts I have on it.

    I think it was a good thing for the game but I miss certain aspects of the old system.
    And yeah there were many tmes when some lowbee was being escorted around by max level toons and competing with them was not enjoyable to say the least.

    I was not touching on that aspect of tapping.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    No where do I state above that the old system should be instituted.

    This is evidenced by the first sentence in the post
    Before I tell my tale, please note that I am not trying to get this feature removed. Just some thoughts I have on it.
    Nowhere did I imply or state you did want the old system back. Just placed a perfectly polite comment stating why I think open tapping is, on balance, better.

  14. #14
    Even while leveling up alts on Brandywine (by all accounts, a comparatively active server) over the past several years, I've rarely encountered other players doing the same quest objectives as I am. Sometimes I'll see one or two at a quest hub and wonder what they're up to, but I rarely speak up to ask. Maybe I'm just shy in-game.

    Perhaps having done all these quests half a dozen times (or in some cases more than a dozen times), I've come to appreciate the efficiency of solo play. Sure, sometimes a group can get a job done faster, but much of the time spent in a group seems to be waiting around to get the job started. Open tapping makes solo play even more efficient.

    Of course, what I like best about open tapping is the remote looting that comes with it. When I was defeating opponents out on the landscape before, I spent a lot of time running around to loot corpses. Sometimes it wasn't worth the work. But now, even going back to do low-level slayer deeds I skipped over can be marginally rewarding in terms of coin and vendor trash.

    One feature I've found interesting in other games is location-based questing. It's basically a "temporary" quest that pops up when you're in the area or near the correct opponents to do it. If you walk away, the quest is simply removed. But the best part is combining this with public groups, so that if other players are in the area (and by extension, also have the quest), you're offered the choice to group with them. It's nearly effortless and a lot of fun.

    I'd welcome some kind of implementation of public grouping based on location like this in LOTRO. Even for shy players like me, it's easy to click a button that says "join public group."

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Cefely View Post
    I do not like that Lotro has completely abandoned the raiding/kin grouping aspect of this game, even if I never got fully into it. My kin once dabbled in group instances now & then & now it seems we are down to single-digits for log-ins. Sure wish they would once again offer awesome content for all play-styles before it just completely fizzles out. Been there, don't really want to go through it again
    Turbine states that it has numbers to prove that 10% or less of the LotRO community are raiders. That number has always seemed low to me, but I have the suspicion that they're counting only hard-core raiders vs. those who try/do the raids at all, even if on a more casual (dabbling, as you say) manner. I would bet that if you included the dabblers the numbers who participate in a raid instance would show a drastically higher number. The lower count of the hard hard core raiders, however, allows Turbine to justify not putting in the necessary resources to have awesome instance once more.

    Now, back on topic, the kin I was in for 4 1/2 years I met from helping someone out on landscape, but open-tapping would have made no difference. I found a hunter in trouble in the Old Forest and so tried pulling some of the mobs, who he had already tapped, off him. There were too many altogether and we both ended up in the rezz circle and I ended up in his kin. I tried to pull them off, not because they were tappable and I would get credit for any help, but because someone was in trouble. Of course there were other times I grouped up and made friends with people because we happened to be in the same area at the same time needing to kill the same mob and so grouped up.

    The uber-grind of the game and the lack of non-buggy, interesting end-game eventually killed off that first kin I was in. Well, that, in addition to the leader becoming more fascist and bigoted over the course of the years. lol

  16. #16
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    I treat open tapping as a "group without portfolio". I do the same kinds of helping I would have been doing anyway, but now neither of us is required to throw an invite in order help out.

    It's not altogether dissimilar from "gunboat diplomacy" where you let your actions speak louder than words.

    I do warbands, landscape mobs, and public instance mobs all the time with other people and I just mark myself to their killing speed and try to contribute equally to the process. Sometimes we end up grouping in a fellowship, sometimes we don't. Sometimes we talk, and sometimes we don't. I've met people now that I regularly end up doing this with when we're both in the same area, and that has led to some chat and potential friendships.

    In fact, in the past 2 weeks, I've taken to announcing in chat that I'm off to solo Bugud, and that some extra dps would not be unwelcome, and it is rare that I don't find 1-6 people joining in on the kill before it is over. Often folks will follow me through Kramp, Gundul, and Urgai after that, etc. and a couple of times it has led to full scale Wildermore war-band raiding with 12-24 folks, which is always a blast.

    Honestly I don't understand why the Rohirrim aren't cleaning up on the orcs, etc. 24 PCs on horses can just about wipe an entire area clean in minutes - if the rohirrim could stop quivering like rabbits with the sheets pulled up to their chins and would get out there they would win in no time flat.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Damojo View Post
    Nowhere did I imply or state you did want the old system back. Just placed a perfectly polite comment stating why I think open tapping is, on balance, better.
    I would wager a guess that he replied like he did because in your answer, you didn't address the OP's argument at all, leaving the impression that you didn't, in fact, read it.

    FWIW, I do agree with the OP that the open tapping basically destroyed every incentive to group up and took a big chunk of the early game experience with it.

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  18. #18
    That's weird because I've only started grouping with random people after open tapping was introduced. Not because of open tapping, but just saying that it didn't prevent those opportunities from arising.

    I think it's wonderful that (as other people mentioned) you don't have to compete for mobs.

    It's also great that you don't HAVE to group. Some people experience the game as something very personal and don't necessarily feel like interacting with someone right that moment, or like to follow a certain rythm that might not be compatible with whoever you happen to meet.

    If people like to group, they still will. The only people who won't group anymore are those who were forced to by the previous system, and those now are free to go on with undisturbed solitary questing. So technically it's a win-win.
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  19. #19
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    My only gripe with open tapping is.. Oh look that person over there is attacking a critter I need to too, no worries, we have open tapping now ..... Wait.... NOOOOOOO! They killed it already *sighs*... Booo! I couldn't get an attack in quick enough to be included for the kill *cries*


    *shrugs* Oh well.. Moving right along.
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  20. #20
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    Yeah, back when open tapping was announced I suggested a ramification would be less ad hoc grouping since it negates that need. I used to have an alias quickslotted that would /say "Want to join us [target]?" Nowadays, nobody bothers, I was running the 25 spiders quest in Scuttledells the other day, ran across someone else, we killed alongside each other without talking/interacting/being social. The extent of it was a /wave when done.

    However there are obvious benefits that outweigh the detriments IMO, and those who wish to be social can prompt it still, if only to hear the reaction from people practically complaining, "Why group? No need anymore".
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taravith View Post
    That's weird because I've only started grouping with random people after open tapping was introduced. Not because of open tapping, but just saying that it didn't prevent those opportunities from arising.

    I think it's wonderful that (as other people mentioned) you don't have to compete for mobs.

    It's also great that you don't HAVE to group. Some people experience the game as something very personal and don't necessarily feel like interacting with someone right that moment, or like to follow a certain rythm that might not be compatible with whoever you happen to meet.

    If people like to group, they still will. The only people who won't group anymore are those who were forced to by the previous system, and those now are free to go on with undisturbed solitary questing. So technically it's a win-win.
    For the most part, this is exactly how I feel about open-tapping. I see the good & the bad about it, the bad also including the farming in instances that all of us ended up being punished for, even those who never participated in it, and then they went & did it again, and again! blehh.

    I don't mind open-tapping, I kind of prefer it in most cases, but I don't like the consequences that have come with it.
    [color=purple]Cefely Elenhilde of Rivendell, lvl 85 Hunter;[/color][color=turquoise] Nenriel Lirulind of Lorien, lvl 85 Minstrel;[/color][color=hotpink] Cherrie Berry of the Fallohides, lvl 85 Burglar;[/color][color=green] Harloe Palohelm of Rohan, lvl 85 Warden;[/color][color=red] Ayan Anfalase of Gondor, lvl 85 Captain;[/color][color=yellow] Onja Anfalase of Gondor, lvl 83 Champion[/color]
    [color=cyan]Leader of founding Kinship Elenhilde on Meneldor[/color]

  22. #22
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    Nah i never found forced interaction to be any fun.
    Even before open tapping the interaction of such a group of necessity was usually hello and bye and just as often people would fight over a mob instead of group.

    Even worse back in wow when there was not only 4 or 5 people waiting for mobs but 40 or 50, that'd still be a hassle with open tapping but not half as big.

    I actually hope they add open tapping to resource nodes like guild wars 2 does. I really liked not having to fight over mining spots and stuff.

  23. #23
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    Hi,

    I remember running around being scared of accidentally 'helping' people. This to a degree i often waited so long before i put a heal on someone (or helped kill the mob) the people i was about to 'help' where dead already

    Nope, i don't want that system back...

    There might be some drawbacks, sure, but seriously: To implement a system where you get punished for helping people/getting help in a game based on LotR just seems so horrible wrong i consider any change to this to be a good one

    I'm pretty sure new players, (who have never played during the 'you stole my xp!'-era), would not believe me if i told them how it once worked...

    Regards
    /T
    Dawarad HNT | Dawadan MIN | Dawfast CMP | Dawaran CPT | Dawmur GRD | Dawared WRD | Dawagrim RK | Dawaras LM | Daweric BRG | Dawagar MIN | Dawarar CMP | Dawnakh WRG | Dawbag BA | Dawgil WVR | Dawglob WL |

  24. #24
    I actually am starting to like open tapping. Being an almost entirely solo player and a completionist at that it is very nice not to have to hang around waiting for a respawn of a quest boss. Just dive in and help whoever is trying to kill it. You both get credit and move on.

    There will always be situations where higher levels are deeding slayer deeds and they kill things faster than you can get a hit off. But that was true before. Open tapping just gives you a shot at catching a few rather than logging out till the higher up is done. No most higher ups will not group with the lower level to do the deed. Every time I have asked I have been rather rudely rebuffed. It is what it is. Open tapping makes things at least possible now.

  25. #25
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    I actually find myself interacting MORE with new people via open tapping.

    Before, if I saw someone fighting a mob, I very carefully ran away rather than risk interfering in their fight or, even worse, getting my @#$ chewed out by them often just for coming too close and making them wonder if I was going to interfere. I had no reason to WANT to be in their vicinity. I had every reason to try to get as far from them on the map as practical so that we didn't interfere with each other.

    Now, with open tapping, the experience feels "right" to me. After all, we are all fighting to save Middle Earth. If I see another member of the Free Peoples surrounded by orcs, I feel that I_Should_Wade_In.

    Just yesterday I had a great experience via open tapping. My guardian was in the Trollshaws trying to wrap up a few quests and deeds to pare down the quest log and ramp up some virtues. I encountered a captain a few levels junior to my guardian. I slowed down and let them join my kills and joined their kills without stealing the mobs away from them. I shot him a fellowship request during a battle lull because I remembered being a captain at those levels and wanting a buddy to fight with me. He accepted and, as a result, I got to clear out some quests that helped him. He had some quests that gave me a decent reason to add some notches on my troll slaying deed. Chatting allowed him to share some captain insights with me and I gave him some pointers I'd picked up on virtues and mob locations. I helped him find an objective to his quests because I'd done the same quest a few days prior to our encounter.

    Win-Win. One of the best days I've had in LOTRO in a long time. We parted after adding each other to our friends lists.

 

 
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