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  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by WBS View Post
    The balrogs were former Maia were they not?

    I find all sources support this undisputed.
    Radhruin never claimed they were not: he was clarifying that the maiar-who-became-balrogs used to be maiar-who-were-spirits-of-fire. Of interest, perhaps, is the fact that, although serving Manwe and living in the gardens of Irmo, Gandalf (as Olorin) was himself a maia-spirit of this ilk: perhaps Gandalf had many personal reasons to be both glad of the 'loan' of Narya and, at the same time, extremely wary of coveting the One.

    HoG

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harper_of_Gondolin View Post
    Radhruin never claimed they were not: he was clarifying that the maiar-who-became-balrogs used to be maiar-who-were-spirits-of-fire. Of interest, perhaps, is the fact that, although serving Manwe and living in the gardens of Irmo, Gandalf (as Olorin) was himself a maia-spirit of this ilk: perhaps Gandalf had many personal reasons to be both glad of the 'loan' of Narya and, at the same time, extremely wary of coveting the One.

    HoG
    thats not what he said harper, he said Sauron and Saruman were not spirits of fire, atleast that how i got it.

  3. #78
    Al,

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin
    No, the Balrogs had started off as spirits of fire (just like Arien the Sun-maiden)
    is precisely what Radhruin said, and precisely what WBS contested; I clarified that Radhruin had never intended to suggest that these fire-spirits were not maiar (already strongly implied, of course, since Radhruin named Arien, who is a "named maia" from narrative).

    So, what's your problem; have all the nearby bridges been demolished; are other trolls suffering from the "sun-burn"?

    HoG

  4. #79
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    Thanks for the clarification on that, guys.

    I wasn't really contesting it as such (I don't know the lore well enough to do so in such mighty company), I was just confused by it and seeking explanation as in my limited knowledge it seemed to imply they weren't because I didn't realise there could be these different types.
    [center][url=http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?18699-How-to-get-help-on-the-Tech-Forums-and-how-to-contact-Turbine][color=gold]How to get help on the Tech Forums and how to contact Turbine[/color][/url]

    [color=green]Please reply to the topic or PM me if a solution I posted works for you: The more data I can gather the better I can help.[/color][/center]

  5. #80
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    whats with agression harper? I made a mistake Im human afterall not a troll.

    You really need to chill out

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    whats with agression harper? I made a mistake Im human afterall not a troll. You really need to chill out
    I so much agrees. He is sounding full of negativity. Like if he beleive that every one has bad intentions. That someone is differing on opinions don't mean is trying to be nasty.
    Last edited by YamydeAragon; Oct 16 2013 at 10:03 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duathrandir View Post
    Is it AI (ai), or Al (al) as in short for Albert, Alvin, or Allan?
    His forum's name is "Al." .

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by YamydeAragon View Post
    His forum's name is "Al." .
    My second name is Albert, I like to post on the subject always, I do sometime loose my temper but its not a common thing.

    So its settled a Balrog with the ring? is a Maiar enchanced to the level of Gothmog or More correct, or anyone got a better idea.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    My second name is Albert, I like to post on the subject always, I do sometime loose my temper but its not a common thing.

    So its settled a Balrog with the ring? is a Maiar enchanced to the level of Gothmog or More correct, or anyone got a better idea.
    Al, you get credit in my book for owning up to sometimes losing it. And the above comments didn't freak you out.

    About the Balrog...they are Maiar in a beastly form. Intelligent and EXTREMELY formidable. The "form" may have been devised by Morgoth.
    With the Ring? Who knows. Could it even fit on one of their fingers? We'll never know.
    The "beastly form" seems to have affected their intelligence. So I am not sure they would have been effective as overlords. At least that's the impression I was left with after reading the Silmarillion.
    A good thought experiment anyway.
    Thanks.
    "Just like Mary Shelly, Just like Frankenstein, Break your chains, And count your change, And try to walk the line"

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    My second name is Albert, I like to post on the subject always, I do sometime loose my temper but its not a common thing.

    So its settled a Balrog with the ring? is a Maiar enchanced to the level of Gothmog or More correct, or anyone got a better idea.

    <sigh>

    Case in point.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    <sigh>

    Case in point.
    whatever mate

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    Al, you get credit in my book for owning up to sometimes losing it. And the above comments didn't freak you out.

    About the Balrog...they are Maiar in a beastly form. Intelligent and EXTREMELY formidable. The "form" may have been devised by Morgoth.
    With the Ring? Who knows. Could it even fit on one of their fingers? We'll never know.
    The "beastly form" seems to have affected their intelligence. So I am not sure they would have been effective as overlords. At least that's the impression I was left with after reading the Silmarillion.
    A good thought experiment anyway.
    Thanks.
    This, now, makes three of us (myself, Radhruin, Boraxxe; forgive me if I've forgotten a fourth) who have proposed this basic extrapolation from text; I and Radhruin, separately, have also suggested that the Ring might be able to make a Balrog more Sauron-like in capabilities and outlook.

    If we are seeking a "settled opinion", this idea seems to me to be the most-highly-endorsed candidate.

    HoG

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harper_of_Gondolin View Post
    This, now, makes three of us (myself, Radhruin, Boraxxe; forgive me if I've forgotten a fourth) who have proposed this basic extrapolation from text; I and Radhruin, separately, have also suggested that the Ring might be able to make a Balrog more Sauron-like in capabilities and outlook.

    If we are seeking a "settled opinion", this idea seems to me to be the most-highly-endorsed candidate.

    HoG
    You forgot to list me in your list, I find that a compliment in a way. Im a conscience-man I can extrapolate at will without much effort I like when people try to imitate me skills often though takes a man like einstein to do it right.

  14. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    You forgot to list me in your list, I find that a compliment in a way. Im a conscience-man I can extrapolate at will without much effort I like when people try to imitate me skills often though takes a man like einstein to do it right.
    He said what now????

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfhelm View Post
    He said what now????
    I know. It has been getting 'weird' for a while now ...

    HoG

  16. #91
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    Bear it in mind that Sauron with his ring was unable to best Celebrimbor at the gates of Eregion and had to get his orc minions to grapple him into submission "Hurin style", indicating that a maiar with the one ring wasnt as powerful as you may want to think. Possibly thats a reflection on Sauron who seems to prefer others to do his fighting for him, be it werewolves vs Finrod or Nazgul and often runs away or submits and ends chained up, it occurs to me that theres an aweful lot of Loki in Sauron, which is something you dont see often discussed. Saurons cowardly nature comming out in the wearers of the ring, ie Gollum and whatever Bilbo was being slowly transformed into might suggest that a Balrog with the ring might be closer to Gollum on steroids, striking from behind and strangling rather than that of a mighty warrior demon casting down mountains that posters here have predicted. Isildur was brave fighting Sauron without the ring but against a company of orcs he tried to flee into the shadows to escape them so it would suggest that even those who were mighty be they human or Balrogs are not neccessarily made mightier by possession of the ring (yes I accept that Isildur hand not "mastered" the ring fully at the Gladden fields). Boromir mistakenly believed that the ring would aid him in the fight against the dark tower but Boromir never possessed the ring, but still aquitted himself well against Sarumans orcs, clearly whatever the ring whispered to Isildur during his possession of it it did not inspire confidence in him to do what Boromir achieved without a ring.
    Last edited by Morthaur; Nov 20 2013 at 12:54 AM.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morthaur View Post
    Possibly thats a reflection on Sauron who seems to prefer others to do his fighting for him, be it werewolves vs Finrod or Nazgul and often runs away or submits and ends chained up, it occurs to me that theres an aweful lot of Loki in Sauron, which is something you dont see often discussed.
    Yes. I agree, and it would be interesting to discuss this more. So many people get Sauron wrong. Hell, he would probably have a hard time against Aragorn one-on-one. I think the films are a big part of the reason so many people misunderstand Sauron, with that depiction of the battle of the Last Alliance and Sauron smashing things up on the front line like a badass. If I remember correctly, the real Sauron only got off his #### AFTER the main battle, AFTER the siege of barad-dur which lasted several years (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

    To get back on topic, yes maybe there is something in the idea that Sauron's cowardice/devious nature influences ring bearers. But it probably only influences weaker people who can't dominate the ring, not the "big personalities" like Gandalf and the balrog. My guess is that a be-ringed balrog would be similar to the general consensus in this thread. Bigger and badder...









    ... but would a ring-bearer balrog have WINGS? (And with that comment, the entire Tolkien sub-forum hates me after my first post).

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inire View Post
    Yes. I agree, and it would be interesting to discuss this more. So many people get Sauron wrong. Hell, he would probably have a hard time against Aragorn one-on-one.
    Quite possibly, in his weakened state without the Ring, if that had ever happened. Sauron was certainly in no hurry to come out and face his enemies in person during the War of the Ring, but then he really didn't need to when he had numbers so overwhelmingly on his side. Back when he had all his power, though, he was evidently no slouch - don't forget that Sauron took out both Elendil and Gil-galad before Isildur managed to finish him off, and Gil-galad's demise was particularly brutal (burnt alive by the fire of Sauron's Black Hand). Even though he preferred not to fight himself (and only did so in the War of the Last Alliance after having been besieged in Barad-dûr for seven years), Sauron was evidently still bloody dangerous when cornered, the essential problem being that like Gandalf or the Balrog of Moria, a powerful Maia took an awful lot of killing. (And that'd be especially so if, as one might imagine, Sauron was all kitted out in war-gear he'd made himself).

  19. #94

    Deep thought

    Cool Story Bro

 

 
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