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  1. #1
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    Balrog with the ring?

    I'm kinda curious what would happen if one of the Balrogs obtained the one ring. In a picture I saw on Google, the ring melted but I know that wouldn't happen because it could only be destroyed in the place it was forged. Also, did Sauron have a kind of secret forge that nobody knew about? When you're in the middle of freaking Mt. Doom don't you think that SOMEBODY is gonna notice that you are forging something? Also, why Mt. Doom Tolkien?! You can create 2* entire languages and yet name a mountain Mt. Doom?! That's just sad! But back on track, if a Balrog obtained the ring, would it bring it to Sauron or would it just keep it for itself? Would it try to destroy the ring? Well then again it would essentially there destroy itself... So yeah, the 2 main questions I'm asking are, What do you think a Balrog would do with the one ring, and how could Sauron forge the ring with everybody around?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    I'm kinda curious what would happen if one of the Balrogs obtained the one ring. In a picture I saw on Google, the ring melted but I know that wouldn't happen because it could only be destroyed in the place it was forged. Also, did Sauron have a kind of secret forge that nobody knew about? When you're in the middle of freaking Mt. Doom don't you think that SOMEBODY is gonna notice that you are forging something? Also, why Mt. Doom Tolkien?! You can create 2* entire languages and yet name a mountain Mt. Doom?! That's just sad! But back on track, if a Balrog obtained the ring, would it bring it to Sauron or would it just keep it for itself? Would it try to destroy the ring? Well then again it would essentially there destroy itself... So yeah, the 2 main questions I'm asking are, What do you think a Balrog would do with the one ring, and how could Sauron forge the ring with everybody around?
    It was called Orodruin which is Sindarin and translates to 'mountain of red flame'. Mount Doom is a translation of Amon Amarth which is what the people of Gondor called it after it errupted at the end of the Second Age (when he showed himself as reformed once again after the fall of Numenore).

    No one knew what Sauron was doing when he was forging the Ring. No one even knew it was Sauron. He had taken a fair form and used the name Annatar. Also keep in mind that Mordor was not exactly Disney-land. There was no one there to see what he was up to except perhaps his own servants.

    What would a Balrog do with the Ring? Very difficult to say but if it came down to a contest of wills between the Balrog and Sauron, I'd suggest it's a very even match. I'd likely give the edge to the Balrog as it's more capable of violence. Sauron always preferred to use cunning and have others do his fighting for him.
    [FONT=Trebuchet MS]"You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81


    [/FONT]

  3. #3
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    I wish Orodruin was used more in the books. It sounds so much more sinister.

  4. #4
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    1. A Balrog with the ring would only be slightly less powerful than Sauron with the ring (and more powerful than Saruman with the ring). That might not even be true: Sauron poured a significant amount of his own power into it, power the Balrog would not have lost.
    1a. Once the ringbearer took the wise advice "fly, you fools" (and the Balrog was falling), the One Ring was once again way past the Balrog's grasp. Narya, was all but in his. Since Gandalf also perished, it can be considered a close fight and presumably one the Balrog might have won. Of all the existing rings, Narya is the only one (save the One itself) that appears to be useful as an offensive weapon or source of power (I'm not sure what Gandalf was preserving with it).
    You don't need a powered up Balrog in any event.

    2. Tuor66 seems to explain the crafting of the rings well. For a more amusing viewpoint try here.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    I'm kinda curious what would happen if one of the Balrogs obtained the one ring. In a picture I saw on Google, the ring melted but I know that wouldn't happen because it could only be destroyed in the place it was forged. Also, did Sauron have a kind of secret forge that nobody knew about? When you're in the middle of freaking Mt. Doom don't you think that SOMEBODY is gonna notice that you are forging something? Also, why Mt. Doom Tolkien?! You can create 2* entire languages and yet name a mountain Mt. Doom?! That's just sad! But back on track, if a Balrog obtained the ring, would it bring it to Sauron or would it just keep it for itself? Would it try to destroy the ring? Well then again it would essentially there destroy itself... So yeah, the 2 main questions I'm asking are, What do you think a Balrog would do with the one ring, and how could Sauron forge the ring with everybody around?
    As Tuor already explained, it is not called Mt. Doom by Tolkien, so I'll leave that part alone.


    1) What do you think a Balrog would do with the one ring?

    This depends on the Balrog. Let's take Durin's Bane as example, since it is the only Balrog known to have survived into the Third Age.
    When it was serving Melkor, Sauron outranked it. So now that Melkor is gone it is possible that it'll just see Sauron as its new master and deliver the Ring.
    But this to me seems the least likely outcome because this particular Balrog seems to have very little loyalty (it simply abandoned Melkor when things got rough and fled to save its own metaphorical skin).
    My guess is it'd just use the Ring for itself, but whether it would succumb to Sauron's will within the Ring or resist and overcome it is unknown. I'm assuming it would be able to overcome it, as Durin's Bane and Sauron are likely relatively close in terms of willpower (both being among Melkor's Top Maiar), and Sauron poured a lot of his personal power into the Ring; effectively handicapping himself by dividing his own power.
    I will assume Sauron put less than half of his power/will into the Ring (he wants to dominate others via the Ring, giving it more than half of his own power might make a semi-sentient Ring dominate him instead). Much like Gandalf and Galadriel, a Balrog seems a likely candidate to overpower less than half of Sauron's willpower and become a new Dark Ruler itself by harnassing it to overthrow Sauron.


    2) How could Sauron forge the ring with everybody around?
    There was nobody around. Sauron forged his Ring in Mordor, the other Rings of Power were forged in Eregion, half a continent away.
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Jul 22 2013 at 09:17 PM.

  6. #6
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    Mordor was a desolate land and very few suspected Annatar at the time. He would have had no issue forging the ring.

    With the information we have I would assume a Balrog would keep the ring. They are very powerful beings with evil intent so I feel they would want to be more powerful. At the same time one could make the assumption balrogs are war machines and followers. The only reason I don't make that assumption is because they are Maia.

  7. #7
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    My guess is that the Balrog was already in league with either Sauron or Saruman before the fellowship entered Moria. It is quite possible that Saruman may have known that Durin's bane was indeed a Balrog and never let none of the other wizards and elves on the White Council aware of it.

    Saruman had been having secret dealings with the goblins and orcs for many years perhaps even before the White Council was officially formed in TA 2463. Which could explain why Galadriel distrusted him and preferred Gandalf over him to lead that council.

    Since orcs and goblins had come to inhabit Moria centuries before the events of the War of the Ring it is quite possible Saruman would have learned from them the true identity of the Nameless Horror the Dwarves awakened long ago. That knowledge was then most likely passed on to Sauron once he had gained control and allegiance of a power hungry Saruman.

    Someone dammed the Sirannon river to create a pool there that would allow The Watcher access to the surface from whatever depths of the mountain it came from. This could either have been Sauron or Saruman.

    It seems to me that Moria was the path that Saruman/Sauron wanted the fellowship to take in crossing the Misty Mountains. He Saruman had seen Gandalf's death and most have thought Gandalf no match for a Balrog. The Watcher being before the gates of Moria would prevent any escape forcing the fellowship onward to an inevitable encounter. If the Watcher had not wanted them to enter Moria it could have easily attacked them long before Gandalf was able to open the gate. Also, it was Frodo that the Watcher first attacked which was not likely a coincidence. (This brings up another question as to why the Watcher didn't just attack the fellowship in the first place before the gate to Moria was opened? Perhaps it had some fear of a full frontal attack and it's outcome? But the best clue is in the name itself...Watcher and there was afterall - a Balrog with many orcs and trolls waiting once the fellowship were sealed inside.)

    If the fellowship had met its end in Moria as Saruman must had hoped - the Ring would have no doubt been taken by the Balrog and most likely returned eventually to Sauron. Middlearth would have had a new evil master in Sauron with the Balrog and Saruman being to Sauron what Sauron once was to Melkor. But this is not what was meant to be...

    My two cents...

    Welden
    Last edited by welden; Jul 22 2013 at 11:19 PM.
    Welden of Elendilmir

  8. #8
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    An invisible Balrog? Now there's a raid with a challenge...
    Today is a good day for Pie.

    Do not meddle in the affairs of Burglars, for they are subtle and quick to shank you.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by welden View Post
    <snip>
    I like this hypothesis, but the one thing that seems extremely unlikely is Saruman trying to drive the fellowship to Moria and trying to get the Watcher to obtain the Ring.
    Saruman wanted the Ring for himself, but driving the fellowship into Moria could possibly expose the Ring to the Orcs and Balrog there (assuming Saruman knew it was a Balrog), and they certainly aren't friends of Saruman. If anything, Saruman would want them near Isengard/Rohan so he can reach out his hand and take it. That means either forcing them through the Gap of Rohan or down the Anduin via a safe Redhorn Pass first.

  10. #10
    Durin's Bane might or might not have been in some sort of communication with Sauron, but nevertheress it remained a free agent. Even if their goals with Sauron were somewhat aligned, it was hardly at Sauron's command.

    As for the Ring, Balrog would in all likelihood try to take it for himself. The problem is that though Balrogs and Sauron have comparable origins, the Ring for the moment is still Sauron's. Any contender trying to usurp the Ring would have to spend some time bending it to his will and building a power base, both metaphorical and real one. Sauron already had both and perceiving such a powerful entity taking possession of the Ring would swiftly attack and win in this case.
    Last edited by Egorvlad; Jul 23 2013 at 08:42 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by welden View Post
    This brings up another question as to why the Watcher didn't just attack the fellowship in the first place before the gate to Moria was opened? Perhaps it had some fear of a full frontal attack and it's outcome? But the best clue is in the name itself...Watcher and there was afterall - a Balrog with many orcs and trolls waiting once the fellowship were sealed inside.
    The most likely reason the Watcher attacked them after the gate to Moria was opened, was because someone was commanding it to force them into Moria with no means of escape, thus the Balrog and orcs ready to take the ring back to Sauron/Saruman.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    The most likely reason the Watcher attacked them after the gate to Moria was opened, was because someone was commanding it to force them into Moria with no means of escape, thus the Balrog and orcs ready to take the ring back to Sauron/Saruman.
    No.

    Boromir is frustrated at the waterside and throws a stone into the pool: shortly thereafter, there is a frothing action that moves to the shore, and tentacles emerge to molest the company. There is nothing at all to suggest that the Watcher attacked Frodo especially, rather then just first among all, aside from the nebulous idea, "the malice of the Ring attracts evil creatures", that is alluded-to in many places of the text.

    As to speculations about "some kind of elaborate trap set at the West Gate of Moria, conceived by Saruman/Sauron" ...

    The West Gate was shut (and hidden): this was common knowledge; Gandalf's purpose was to evade spies by attempting to use an "impossible" road (the only road that, he could hope, would not be watched); he hoped that Gimli's insights into works of similar Dwarf-craft, plus his own Wizardly perspicacity, would help him figure out the trick of how to open the doors from outside.

    Clearly, the Watcher had been driven-out of the Deeps and into the pool by the orcs of Moria, as a watchdog posted at their "back door"; presumably, they had dammed the stream beforehand precisely for this purpose. There is nothing to say, however, that this had not been done at the bidding of the Balrog. Whomever conceived of the plan, they did it decades before the Quest to Mordor (a dwarf of Balin's party was taken by the Watcher), and they neglected to keep the stream properly dammed-up: when the Fellowship arrives, the water has receded some distance from the doors.

    Back to topic,

    Durin's Bane commanding the One Ring would be both more-, and less-, fearsome than Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, et al. The Balrog is a maia that has invested a great amount of the power of its fea (spirit) into its hroa (corporeal body): a demon of fire and fear, but locked into that terrible form (bound to its body in much the same way that Sauron bound himself to the Ruling Ring); with the One Ring, it would become an individual elemental force of terrible magnitude, but with little capacity for anything more (Sauron and Saruman coveted rulership of the entirety of Middle-Earth; Galadriel described herself transforming into a Queen that all would love, and despair ...).

    HoG

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Harper_of_Gondolin View Post
    No.

    Boromir is frustrated at the waterside and throws a stone into the pool: shortly thereafter, there is a frothing action that moves to the shore, and tentacles emerge to molest the company. There is nothing at all to suggest that the Watcher attacked Frodo especially, rather then just first among all, aside from the nebulous idea, "the malice of the Ring attracts evil creatures", that is alluded-to in many places of the text.

    As to speculations about "some kind of elaborate trap set at the West Gate of Moria, conceived by Saruman/Sauron" ...

    The West Gate was shut (and hidden): this was common knowledge; Gandalf's purpose was to evade spies by attempting to use an "impossible" road (the only road that, he could hope, would not be watched); he hoped that Gimli's insights into works of similar Dwarf-craft, plus his own Wizardly perspicacity, would help him figure out the trick of how to open the doors from outside.

    Clearly, the Watcher had been driven-out of the Deeps and into the pool by the orcs of Moria, as a watchdog posted at their "back door"; presumably, they had dammed the stream beforehand precisely for this purpose. There is nothing to say, however, that this had not been done at the bidding of the Balrog. Whomever conceived of the plan, they did it decades before the Quest to Mordor (a dwarf of Balin's party was taken by the Watcher), and they neglected to keep the stream properly dammed-up: when the Fellowship arrives, the water has receded some distance from the doors.

    Back to topic,

    Durin's Bane commanding the One Ring would be both more-, and less-, fearsome than Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, et al. The Balrog is a maia that has invested a great amount of the power of its fea (spirit) into its hroa (corporeal body): a demon of fire and fear, but locked into that terrible form (bound to its body in much the same way that Sauron bound himself to the Ruling Ring); with the One Ring, it would become an individual elemental force of terrible magnitude, but with little capacity for anything more (Sauron and Saruman coveted rulership of the entirety of Middle-Earth; Galadriel described herself transforming into a Queen that all would love, and despair ...).

    HoG
    Well said!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    As Tuor already explained, it is not called Mt. Doom by Tolkien, so I'll leave that part alone.
    Sorry, what? It's right there in the book by that name, it's the title of a chapter too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorvlad View Post
    Durin's Bane might or might not have been in some sort of communication with Sauron, but nevertheress it remained a free agent. Even if their goals with Sauron were somewhat aligned, it was hardly at Sauron's command.

    As for the Ring, Balrog would in all likelihood try to take it for himself. The problem is that though Balrogs and Sauron have comparable origins, the Ring for the moment is still Sauron's. Any contender trying to usurp the Ring would have to spend some time bending it to his will and building a power base, both metaphorical and real one. Sauron already had both and perceiving such a powerful entity taking possession of the Ring would swiftly attack and win in this case.
    The Ring has no definitive loyalty to Sauron other than that to master it, someone would have to become like him - something that the good guys obviously didn't fancy, but a Balrog wouldn't be at all bothered about that because it'd already be a supernatural Big Bad, brimming over with malice, well-used to commanding Orcs and whatnot and with its own considerable magical powers. It wouldn't have any crisis of conscience about wielding the Ring's power, it wouldn't start out with good intentions; the Ring would recognise a kindred spirit right away. As a result, Sauron wouldn't be able to rely entirely on command of his own Orcs since the Ring's new master could contend with his will - he might have to rely on the Men in his service instead. I reckon it'd be a hell of a fight, too close to call provided the Balrog didn't get cocky and attack too soon. And even Sauron would have had a lot of trouble trying to wrest Moria away from the Balrog and get the Ring back. Epic

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    As a result, Sauron wouldn't be able to rely entirely on command of his own Orcs since the Ring's new master could contend with his will - he might have to rely on the Men in his service instead
    I'm sorry, WHAT?! If the ring could've been used to control all the hordes of orcs in Mordor, then why didn't Frodo?! He could've told them to go take care of Sauron's tower and just have them get rid of it! Make them all think they are the best and then they would fight and ultimately destroy each other. The ring was really kinda bound to Sauron, because he had forged it and was the first to wear it and use it for a considerable amount of time. Also, epic map of Arda: http://www.carpepm.net/images/2007_arda.jpg

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    I'm sorry, WHAT?! If the ring could've been used to control all the hordes of orcs in Mordor, then why didn't Frodo?! He could've told them to go take care of Sauron's tower and just have them get rid of it! Make them all think they are the best and then they would fight and ultimately destroy each other. The ring was really kinda bound to Sauron, because he had forged it and was the first to wear it and use it for a considerable amount of time. Also, epic map of Arda: http://www.carpepm.net/images/2007_arda.jpg
    The Ring gives you power according to your measure. I don't think anyone would be able to command the Orcs but someone like Aragorn or Boromir might make them scatter and flee and use the Ring's power to drive their own troops onwards. Ultimately they would fail. The closer to Sauron the sooner it's presence would be detected and the Ring would call to it's master. Tolkien says in a letter that only Gandalf (wielding the Ring) might hope to defeat Sauron but at a terrible price to Gandalf himself. The other part of the problem is that as long as the Ring exists, Sauron can exist to trouble the world. The quest was to end the Ring as it was the only way to end Sauron. Concealment was necessary.
    [FONT=Trebuchet MS]"You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81


    [/FONT]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Sorry, what? It's right there in the book by that name, it's the title of a chapter too!
    You're right, that was very poorly worded by me.
    What I mean is that Tolkien had the Elves gave it the name Orodruin, and in his works it is called Amon Amarth and Mt. Doom by the various races after a time. Which doesn't mean that Tolkien didn't use the name Mt. Doom more often than not himself, which is where my very poor wording comes into play.
    You'll have to forgive me, it was very late and not in my maternal language. A case of "...*I* know what I mean.".
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Jul 24 2013 at 11:13 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    I'm sorry, WHAT?! If the ring could've been used to control all the hordes of orcs in Mordor, then why didn't Frodo?!
    Because Frodo was just a hobbit, unused to wielding power because he had none of his own - actively trying to use the Ring's true power would have destroyed him. Galadriel warns him not to try.

    It's made quite plain in the book that someone who was used to wielding such power (Gandalf or Galadriel, say) could have taken the Ring and wielded it as a weapon against Sauron - the catch being that they'd become corrupted by its power and end up becoming just like him, a Dark Lord (or Lady). So that's why they don't do it, not because they couldn't but from knowing what they'd ultimately become if they did. An evil Galadriel sounds especially scary, with that 'All shall love me and despair' line of hers
    Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Jul 25 2013 at 03:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    An evil Galadriel sounds especially scary, with that 'All shall love me and despair' line of hers
    Hehe.






























    Sexual innuendo.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Because Frodo was just a hobbit, unused to wielding power because he had none of his own - actively trying to use the Ring's true power would have destroyed him. Galadriel warns him not to try.

    It's made quite plain in the book that someone who was used to wielding such power (Gandalf or Galadriel, say) could have taken the Ring and wielded it as a weapon against Sauron - the catch being that they'd become corrupted by its power and end up becoming just like him, a Dark Lord (or Lady). So that's why they don't do it, not because they couldn't but from knowing what they'd ultimately become if they did. An evil Galadriel sounds especially scary, with that 'All shall love me and despair' line of hers
    Hmmmm, Frodo's power over/with the One Ring ...

    This brings up an opportunity to point out something that a lot of people seem to have missed from reading the Lord of the Rings (Peter Jackson certainly missed it: the scene is absent from the movies): Frodo fails the quest to destroy the Ring; at the last moment, he recants and claims the Ring for himself.

    Obviously, it is not Gollum that achieves this pupose, either: it is the Ring itself that destroys the Ring.

    Follow: on the slopes of Orodruin, Frodo desperately fends off an attack by Gollum, then, with the One Ring clenched in his fist, delivers the imprecation, if [Gollum] ever dares lay hands upon [Frodo], [Gollum himself] will be cast into the Cracks of Doom.

    It is the Ring's own Malice and Power that achieves its destruction.

    The stage for this is set much earlier when Frodo accepts Gollum's oath of Service, "on The Preciousssss": the warning is given (and Frodo's intuitive understanding is revealed), "It will hold you to your promise".

    Frodo did have Power to command the Ring; given sufficient time to grow (millennia, perhaps), he could have become a Power himself, like unto Sauron et al.

    HoG

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Because Frodo was just a hobbit, unused to wielding power because he had none of his own - actively trying to use the Ring's true power would have destroyed him. Galadriel warns him not to try.

    It's made quite plain in the book that someone who was used to wielding such power (Gandalf or Galadriel, say) could have taken the Ring and wielded it as a weapon against Sauron - the catch being that they'd become corrupted by its power and end up becoming just like him, a Dark Lord (or Lady). So that's why they don't do it, not because they couldn't but from knowing what they'd ultimately become if they did. An evil Galadriel sounds especially scary, with that 'All shall love me and despair' line of hers
    Which leads to the question: was Frodo trying to master the Ring when he claimed it, or had the Ring mastered him? Presumably, the Ring was in charge, and the only thing that kept Frodo from destruction was the sudden removal of the Ring via dismemberment swiftly followed by the destruction of the Ring.

    But I suppose that Frodo was trying to use the Ring's power. What the Ring was trying to do was another story.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harper_of_Gondolin View Post
    Frodo did have Power to command the Ring; given sufficient time to grow (millennia, perhaps), he could have become a Power himself, like unto Sauron et al.

    There is a comic somewhere in the internet of Frodo being a miniature Nazgul with his furry feet sticking out from underneath his robes and the other 9 Nazgul are standing by embarrassed and saying maybe converting Frodo wasn't such a good idea!
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    [I][FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=#ffff00]Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check[/COLOR][/FONT][/I]

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    I think that speculation about a Balrog doing anything is ludicrous.
    Here we have a beastly creature lurking in the depths of the earth for thousands of years.
    All by itself.
    What was it doing for all that time?
    Playing solitaire?
    "Just like Mary Shelly, Just like Frankenstein, Break your chains, And count your change, And try to walk the line"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    I think that speculation about a Balrog doing anything is ludicrous.
    Here we have a beastly creature lurking in the depths of the earth for thousands of years.
    All by itself.
    What was it doing for all that time?
    Playing solitaire?
    It was hiding. It was still scared from what had happened to its friends at Thangorodrim. The same goes for Sauron and Smaug, Sauron just got over it quicker.
    And it isn't beastly, it just slaughtered an entire Dwarf kingdom because those pesky Dwarves woke it. Aren't you cranky when someone wakes you up for no good reason?

 

 
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