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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talisien View Post
    There are many things in LOTRO that are not lore appropriate, take for example the many items Turbine has out there to get people to purchase from the store. Or the fact that there are Hobbits outside of the Shire at all. Or even the few Dwarves that go round in dresses. Why should the spouse/partner system be any different?
    You have a point. If I had been running Turbine back in the day, I would've nixed adoptions from the get-go.

    But alas, I have never been, am not now, and shall never be running Turbine. They will, Turbine and SZC between them, make their own decisions about what will be in game and what won't.

    And then WB will decide to pay for it, or not.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talisien View Post
    Let's put aside the bonuses for a moment and think of the root issue. Let's face it, even without the bonus stats this is a dearly needed feature.

    There is already a place to declare a child. Why shouldn't we be able to declare a partner or spouse?

    Now, for those who want to cry "It's not lore" Just how many times in Tolkien's works have you seen a Dwarf with an Elf child, a Hobbit with a child that isn't a Hobbit, Or any other combination of the races?

    Just like with the child system, it is completely optional. If you don't like it, you do not have to use it. If the title "Husband of" or "Wife of" or even "Spouse of" bother you, then there is this nifty little option in your preferences to turn off titles. Anyone is already capable of roleplaying however they wish in chat, even to the point of some things that would be better in IM, (but that is another matter alltogether)

    There are many things in LOTRO that are not lore appropriate, take for example the many items Turbine has out there to get people to purchase from the store. Or the fact that there are Hobbits outside of the Shire at all. Or even the few Dwarves that go round in dresses. Why should the spouse/partner system be any different?

    It doesn't matter. Turbine will not touch this issue with a ten foot pole and I cannot blame them.
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  3. #28
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    Noone stops you from RP-ing a marriage or married life. I know some who do and I love it. I'd love to see it getting some more support from in-game mechanisms, but honestly /emote, the player biography and /say go a long way.

    I may want to tinker a 'Wedding band'. Or decorate a 'Wedding chapel'. Some of these things can already be done partly in-game: a proper inscription for a crafted ring, or some appropiate furniture in a (kin)house go a long way. Bride holding a flower? Check. White dress with veil? Check. You may have to walk the extra mile.

    Still I like the suggestion. Just saying there's a lot you can already do if you use your imagination.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    So...how do you propose to have an in-game marriage system that is (a) consistent with what is contained in LotR, and (b) won't upset a whole lot of people?
    Ah, it's easy with some tweaks:

    I hereby declare you a bonded duo-fellowship, to walk through hard and easy instances together until subscription runs out or servers shut down, whatever comes first.

    Could work in real life too with some 'slight' modifications

    Joke aside: Relationships are hard to implement in a game without upsetting people (even if we disregard the lore.) However they do it, they risk getting one 'side' against them (or if they try to stay 'middle of the road PC', both...)

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taravith View Post
    Some people seem to say that this system exists in other big games. So why would the controversy make Turbine explode and not the other ones?
    Reason #1: Because Turbine/WB do not want Christopher Tolkien breathing down their necks. Good gravy, Tolkien isn't even allowing rights to material such as the Silmarillion. We have a snowball's chance in hades of C. Tolkien letting this sort of thing get by him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faengalith View Post
    This, I believe, has been the answer all along. Allowing players the option of creating a bond. That's it, just a meaningful bond, which could be between good friends who wish to go on a long adventure together, between two brothers who want to look after each other, or between two people in love, anyone at all. It doesn't matter and it is not specified in any way. It is up to the players to decide what their bond means to them.

    Sworn protectors and other strong connections were very much a part of Middle Earth history. Much of the story focused on the building of a relationship between two individuals, and how it shaped their future. Gimli and Legolas, Frodo and Sam, there are many examples from the books - Gimli and Legolas being especially remarkable because of their races. It would add richness to the world if we were given a way to mark our enduring partnerships, in whatever form they may take. Removing the idea of 'romance' from it would likely eliminate the complaints, and if people decided their bond did mean that to them, they could choose to use it in that way.

    It would be important to allow players to cut a bond at any time they wish, (but perhaps not able to make a new one until a good time had passed, to prevent people from using it on every random fellowship). It could grant them perhaps a bonus when in proximity, but of course only for as long as they choose to keep their bond.

    This seems like a very simple solution to add a layer to the game that many people would greatly enjoy.
    Well stated. Having this sort of bond relationship would be far more lore-appropriate and wouldn't unleash that can of worms that we all know is hanging around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainothon View Post
    Noone stops you from RP-ing a marriage or married life. I know some who do and I love it. I'd love to see it getting some more support from in-game mechanisms, but honestly /emote, the player biography and /say go a long way.

    I may want to tinker a 'Wedding band'. Or decorate a 'Wedding chapel'. Some of these things can already be done partly in-game: a proper inscription for a crafted ring, or some appropiate furniture in a (kin)house go a long way. Bride holding a flower? Check. White dress with veil? Check. You may have to walk the extra mile.

    Still I like the suggestion. Just saying there's a lot you can already do if you use your imagination.
    Excellent suggestion. I have also been involved in this sort of thing, serving as a sort of bridesmaid. It wasn't as grand as all that -- the fellow and I covertly planned to get the bride to the right spot at the right moment and it was all a big surprise for her. I even got to get a nice dress from one of the festivals that fit the event perfectly. I accompanied them to the notary to have the last names made the same, too.
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  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Faengalith View Post
    This, I believe, has been the answer all along. Allowing players the option of creating a bond. That's it, just a meaningful bond, which could be between good friends who wish to go on a long adventure together, between two brothers who want to look after each other, or between two people in love, anyone at all. It doesn't matter and it is not specified in any way. It is up to the players to decide what their bond means to them.
    You, sir, are brilliant. I hadn't even thought of bringing it outside of the "couple" context to be honest but a lightbulb lit up when I saw you mention Gimli & Legolas, Frodo & Sam... Indeed take Faramir and Boromir, Merry and Pippin, Eomer and Eowyn and many other such relationships to be found in lotr.

    It's possibly the most lore-friendly idea I've seen in this forum when you think about it.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    Reason #1: Because Turbine/WB do not want Christopher Tolkien breathing down their necks. Good gravy, Tolkien isn't even allowing rights to material such as the Silmarillion. We have a snowball's chance in hades of C. Tolkien letting this sort of thing get by him.
    Christopher Tolkien has nothing to do with it. The license is from The Saul Zaentz Company, d/b/a Middle-earth Enterprises (SZC). SZC is someone that Turbine/WB has to make happy; Christopher Tolkien is not.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penter-Kar View Post
    Christopher Tolkien has nothing to do with it. The license is from The Saul Zaentz Company, d/b/a Middle-earth Enterprises (SZC). SZC is someone that Turbine/WB has to make happy; Christopher Tolkien is not.
    Christopher Tolkien is however the executor for Tolkien Estate which handles all of his father's copyrighted works, with the only exception being the trilogy and The Hobbit which had already been sold and are currently owned by Middle-earth Enterprises/SZC. But their rights are limited only to the trilogy and The Hobbit (and even then only to a certain degree). They can't just do whatever they want, and if C Tolkien feels any action they make violates the various copyright agreements, etc., he most certainly can breath down their necks and sue them. Your guess is probably as good as mine as to who would win. But the point is (at least last I checked), the Tolkien Estate and Middle-earth Enterprises/WB have been tangling each other with law suits for a while. Turbine/WB's lawyers aren't hired just to make sure international laws are upheld -- they also have to keep their toes within the boundaries that their copyright (sold by Tolkien) covers.
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  9. #34
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    Lore-wise, there were no 'inter-racial' marriages (LoTR and the Hobbit). Elves and Men don't count. Their biological bodies are the same species (also technically true for Thingol and Melian, who took on the biological form of the First-born). Hobbits, well, could potentially do so with either Elves or Men in the lore, being biologically related; but mechanically, I can't see it. All of that said, I do know of 'marriages' in-game, in the sense of kinmates having done RP ceremonies (and they may have been married partners in RL, for all I know). I remember attending two or three such events when I was in Legends of Moria (Nimrodel) before it merged with ASF.
    Last edited by cdq1958; Jul 22 2013 at 07:17 PM.
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  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Talisien View Post
    There are many things in LOTRO that are not lore appropriate, take for example the many items Turbine has out there to get people to purchase from the store. Or the fact that there are Hobbits outside of the Shire at all. Or even the few Dwarves that go round in dresses. Why should the spouse/partner system be any different?
    i personally see nothing wrong with Dwarves in dresses. There seem to be a few ladies (myself included) playing as Dwarves, and having them in dresses would be a good way to say 'hey, I'm one of those rarely-seen, mistaken for men Dwarf women!' Most people have no problem with men playing female Elves and putting them in dresses. I know some ladies thought at one point that the Dwarf race put a barrier there for them to play, since there isn't an option to be a female. But after some of them went ahead with it anyway, and decided that they were going to have their Dwarves be females, the dresses were a great way to say that. It's not too much of a stretch to say that Dwarf women could indeed have worn dresses. And Dwarves seem to the the gender androgynous race of Middle-Earth, at least in-game. They don't give you a male or female, so you're free to go either way. And even if you want a female Dwarf, you still don't see many traipsing about, which would go along (to a point) with the lore. You don't see many Dwarf women because they're mistaken for men, thanks to appearance. So Dwarves in dresses isn't too big of a deal, at least in my opinion. And while my Dwarf RK isn't a 'female' Dwarf, he's very much so a male, i do have a female Dwarf on another server. And she looks great, too! But if men can play as women and put them in dresses, I see no reason why women can't play as a race that i mainly made up of men, and put their toons in dresses, because they want to represent a Dwarf female. But if you want to be a woman playing a male toon, that's fine too. Two of my toons are males, an Elf Guard and my Dwarf RK, while the rest are females like myself. why? because i felt like rolling a male toon. no different than the men rolling female toons.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by zalladi View Post
    Unless you also have a free divorce system, no.

    But in reality, a system like that rarely fits in a game, let alone an online game with real people.
    Since it hasn't sunk in yet, I think I'll explain the joke into the ground: a divorce system is about as counter-lore as you can possibly get (well, maybe if they implemented a /death* command). While I think the canonical example is from the Silmarillion (I don't remember the example, just heard it second hand) was that there is at least one elf stuck in the Halls of Manos while his/her wife/husband has married someone else. They can't return until "the way is clear".

    If it weren't for this, the [licensed] lore is only as heavily against it as things like runekeepers, swimming hobbits, and all the other "not lore" things we deal with. The extensive family trees of the Lord of the Rings simply don't show divorces. The canonical example is that otherwise Arwen could divorce Aragon after a century or so and build her own boat (the lack of ships are often used to claim she was "too late", yet Legolas built a boat and left with Gimli) and thus continue to live. In the book she has to deal with her own bitter mortality.

    * /death is a real command in DDO. Assuming they started with the DDO code, they likely took that command out fairly early**. It is mostly used to teleport back to your (user bindable) spawn point, aka "death taxi". It is also used to trick unsuspecting players into typing "/death count", which of course kills them (/death allows no argument).
    ** It is gone, isn't it?

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by yawumpus View Post
    stuck in the Halls of Manos
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  13. #38
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    Turbine was going to do this but they didn't know if they should put in same-sex marriage, also they didn't know Tolkien's views on the subject.

    Wouldn't want to upset the big man

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdq1958 View Post
    Lore-wise, there were no 'inter-racial' marriages (LoTR and the Hobbit). Elves and Men don't count. Their biological bodies are the same species (also technically true for Thingol and Melian, who took on the biological form of the First-born). Hobbits, well, could potentially do so with either Elves or Men in the lore, being biologically related; but mechanically, I can't see it. All of that said, I do know of 'marriages' in-game, in the sense of kinmates having done RP ceremonies (and they may have been married partners in RL, for all I know). I remember attending two or three such events when I was in Legends of Moria (Nimrodel) before it merged with ASF.
    You're expressing far more certainty about the actual biology than I'd hazard to guess. You are, for one thing, asserting the Elves and Men are the same species. I don't see anything in the canon that would demonstrate that. Nor do I see anything that could lead to a firm conclusion about either (let alone both) being that closely related to Hobbits. Do we agree that Dwarves are truly a "separate creation" and are completely unrelated (biologically) to the other species of Free Peoples?

    As for Melian...she's a Maia and the origin of her existence is prior to the Ainulindale. Your contention is that a Maia can simply invoke a body right down to the fundamental biology. That's an interesting conjecture. What--within Tolkien's work--do you base it on?

    Quote Originally Posted by yawumpus View Post
    The canonical example is that otherwise Arwen could divorce Aragon after a century or so and build her own boat (the lack of ships are often used to claim she was "too late", yet Legolas built a boat and left with Gimli) and thus continue to live. In the book she has to deal with her own bitter mortality.
    I think you're misreading the nature of her choice. Elrond had a choice to be either Elf or Man. His children were also granted that choice. Arwen didn't choose until she married Aragorn. At that point, she became irrevocably mortal, and travel--while alive--to Aman was closed to her. Her fate became that of Men, a subject on which Tolkien wrote practically nothing beyond that it was unknown to Elves and the Ainur that entered into Ea.

    So, no, she couldn't have divorced Aragorn and sailed into the Uttermost West. Any boat she built would have followed the curved path, not the straight one.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    You're expressing far more certainty about the actual biology than I'd hazard to guess. You are, for one thing, asserting the Elves and Men are the same species. I don't see anything in the canon that would demonstrate that. Nor do I see anything that could lead to a firm conclusion about either (let alone both) being that closely related to Hobbits. Do we agree that Dwarves are truly a "separate creation" and are completely unrelated (biologically) to the other species of Free Peoples?

    As for Melian...she's a Maia and the origin of her existence is prior to the Ainulindale. Your contention is that a Maia can simply invoke a body right down to the fundamental biology. That's an interesting conjecture. What--within Tolkien's work--do you base it on?
    Actually, I would hazard to guess that biologically elves and men were the same. The fact that the union of the two races produced offspring which were themselves capable of reproduction would bear this out. The only true difference between the races were the gifts bestowed upon them by Illuvatar. In the case of elves it was eternal life barring physical trauma which induced death as well as an immunity to poison and disease (which due to game mechanics Turbine had to fiddle with to avoid the race being too powerful) but at the cost of being tied permanently to Earth and the fate of the Earth. Men instead were given a finite life span but not being tied to the Earth and the fate of the Earth their "souls" would continue on in some unknown fashion. Nothing is said about what happens to their souls except that they are not tied to the Earth like the elves are.

    As for a Maia being able to take a body of whatever type, there are a couple of instances you should be aware of and in one case should pay closer attention to. Melian is a case in point. She took the body of an elf and bore elf children whom themselves bore other elf children. Another obvious case is Sauron. More than once he took mortal bodies with the best known being that of Annatar, Lord of Gifts. It is likely that a he chose a different body, possibly that of a man, when he surrendered to the king of Numenor to corrupt Numenor from within. With the destruction of this body he was no longer able to take a fair form again.

    Dwarves are a completely different race. They were a creation of the Vala Aule. They were also created before the emergence of elves and men. Since Aule wasn't able to give the dwarves actual life and Eru didn't want to see Aule's creation destroyed he gave them life but had them put to sleep so elves and men could emerge first. Therefore it is very likely that dwarves are very different biologically as the race is not one of the Children of Eru.

    The race of Hobbits is an odd one. While I have not ready everything there is, as far as I know there is no cannon information with regards to the origins of hobbits. No one knows for sure exactly how they came about but it is said they are related to men.

    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    I think you're misreading the nature of her choice. Elrond had a choice to be either Elf or Man. His children were also granted that choice. Arwen didn't choose until she married Aragorn. At that point, she became irrevocably mortal, and travel--while alive--to Aman was closed to her. Her fate became that of Men, a subject on which Tolkien wrote practically nothing beyond that it was unknown to Elves and the Ainur that entered into Ea.

    So, no, she couldn't have divorced Aragorn and sailed into the Uttermost West. Any boat she built would have followed the curved path, not the straight one.
    You also have some bad information here. Elrond did have a choice and chose to be an elf. However, his children are a different matter. They themselves can't choose whether to be of the race of elves or men. They are essentially elven in that they are immortal but it comes with a price. They are only immortal as long as they are with Elrond. Elrond's physical place determines whether or not his children are immortal. As long as he stays in Middle Earth his children remain immortal as elves. When Elrond leaves to sail West his sons go with him and remain immortal. However, Arwen chose to remain in Middle Earth as the wife of Aragorn and therefore no longer had the gift of immortality.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrnknElf View Post
    You also have some bad information here. Elrond did have a choice and chose to be an elf. However, his children are a different matter. They themselves can't choose whether to be of the race of elves or men. They are essentially elven in that they are immortal but it comes with a price. They are only immortal as long as they are with Elrond. Elrond's physical place determines whether or not his children are immortal. As long as he stays in Middle Earth his children remain immortal as elves. When Elrond leaves to sail West his sons go with him and remain immortal. However, Arwen chose to remain in Middle Earth as the wife of Aragorn and therefore no longer had the gift of immortality.
    And you got this from where, exactly?

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    And you got this from where, exactly?
    That's what the text seems to suggest:

    Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth.
    But then when Aragorn dies (long after Elrond left) he says to Arwen:

    The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men.
    Which seems to say that she could still go to Aman. But then she answers:

    '"Nay, dear lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence."
    But is it because there aren't any ships anymore or because even if there are/were ships they wouldn't take her because Elrond is already gone?
    It seems that even the characters aren't very clear on how the whole thing works.

    EDIT: my partner has an alternative theory - that it's leaving Rivendell that makes her mortal. Like, giving it up as her "home address" in favor of Gondor is the symbolic gesture that ties her to the human world, and severs her from her father, his ring, his fate and the general "elvishness" of it all (as expressed in Rivendell as a place of healing/preserving/being über elvish). Eh, why not.

    But I think that the point Tolkien makes with Arwen is not so much a logical one as a mythological/literary one. Arwen is supposed to mirror Luthien, and while Luthien was given an explicit choice, the context of it is similar: the greatest trial happens when facing either grief in ME or healing in Aman.

    The problematic "no ship would bear me hence" part rings a bell - I seem to dimly recall Galadriel saying something similar in either the Silmarillion or the Unfinished Tales about how her transgressions against the Valar in the war of the Silmarils prevent her from sailing back to Aman. So maybe here too it's supposed to be more of a symbolic point than a logical one.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Arwen didn't choose until she married Aragorn. At that point, she became irrevocably mortal, and travel--while alive--to Aman was closed to her. Her fate became that of Men, a subject on which Tolkien wrote practically nothing beyond that it was unknown to Elves and the Ainur that entered into Ea.

    So, no, she couldn't have divorced Aragorn and sailed into the Uttermost West. Any boat she built would have followed the curved path, not the straight one.
    I was using this as an example of marriage being irrevocable. I suspect if it wasn't than it wouldn't force the choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    I'm pretty positive that this was due to be introduced but Turbine saw it as possibly a controversial feature so they scrapped it and said that in-game marriage would never be allowed.
    It was pretty straightforward: If you allow characters to marry, you have to decide whether or not that includes characters of the same sex. To allow it does not gibe with Tolkien's setting or personal views. To not allow it does not jibe with the generally progressive views of educated Massachusettsians. Players would naturally have differing views on the matter as well. So rather than choose sides, it was found better to leave it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aestivan View Post
    It was pretty straightforward: If you allow characters to marry, you have to decide whether or not that includes characters of the same sex. To allow it does not gibe with Tolkien's setting or personal views. To not allow it does not jibe with the generally progressive views of educated Massachusettsians. Players would naturally have differing views on the matter as well. So rather than choose sides, it was found better to leave it out.
    Seeing the whole fuss that ensues over these topics (From all sides) first hand with the newer Bioware games, i think that was one of the better decisions by turbine.

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    BioWare Austin is a different matter entirely, having promised an inclusive romance system, failing to deliver one, and handling the affected community extremely poorly, but that is probably not a discussion to bring onto the LOTRO forums.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrnknElf View Post
    Actually, I would hazard to guess that biologically elves and men were the same. The fact that the union of the two races produced offspring which were themselves capable of reproduction would bear this out.
    There are any number of real-world examples of inter-species crosses that produce viable offspring. Whether or not there can be another generation arising from the cross is another matter. I suggest that you look up the terms "mule" and "hinny".

    The only true difference between the races were the gifts bestowed upon them by Illuvatar. In the case of elves it was eternal life barring physical trauma which induced death as well as an immunity to poison and disease (which due to game mechanics Turbine had to fiddle with to avoid the race being too powerful) but at the cost of being tied permanently to Earth and the fate of the Earth. Men instead were given a finite life span but not being tied to the Earth and the fate of the Earth their "souls" would continue on in some unknown fashion. Nothing is said about what happens to their souls except that they are not tied to the Earth like the elves are.
    And when you get right down to it, Tolkien didn't actually *say* what the relationship was, save that both Elves and Men are "children of Iluvatar". That there are very few human-Elf crosses fits with the modern concept "species" (generally speaking, cross species breeding is quite rare in nature...when humans get involved....not so much).

    Again, it comes down to a point I have made before. Tolkien was a philologist and not a biologist. In writing his fantasies, he paid a great deal of attention to language and virtually none to biology, geology, or other sciences.

    As for a Maia being able to take a body of whatever type, there are a couple of instances you should be aware of and in one case should pay closer attention to. Melian is a case in point. She took the body of an elf and bore elf children whom themselves bore other elf children. Another obvious case is Sauron. More than once he took mortal bodies with the best known being that of Annatar, Lord of Gifts. It is likely that a he chose a different body, possibly that of a man, when he surrendered to the king of Numenor to corrupt Numenor from within. With the destruction of this body he was no longer able to take a fair form again.
    I'm surprised you didn't mention the other Maia that figures in the story, the Balrog. Sauron is an interesting case. After the fall of Numenor, he 'could no longer appear to be fair' (reasonably good looking). That is, his ability to control his appearance was constrained.

    I think that you have confused *appearance* with *substance*. Maiar, it would seem, may put on an appearance in many ways, but that doesn't mean that their actual "being" has been changed.

    Case in point... The Istarii arrived in Middle-earth with the appearance of old men. Cirdan the Shipwright knew exactly what they really were, which certainly *wasn't* "old Men".

    The race of Hobbits is an odd one. While I have not ready everything there is, as far as I know there is no cannon information with regards to the origins of hobbits. No one knows for sure exactly how they came about but it is said they are related to men.
    Yes...any speculation on the true origins of the Hobbits is a shot in the dark....

    You also have some bad information here. Elrond did have a choice and chose to be an elf. However, his children are a different matter. They themselves can't choose whether to be of the race of elves or men. They are essentially elven in that they are immortal but it comes with a price. They are only immortal as long as they are with Elrond. Elrond's physical place determines whether or not his children are immortal. As long as he stays in Middle Earth his children remain immortal as elves. When Elrond leaves to sail West his sons go with him and remain immortal. However, Arwen chose to remain in Middle Earth as the wife of Aragorn and therefore no longer had the gift of immortality.
    So.... It is your contention that when Elrohir and Elladan were travelling with Aragorn to Annuminas or with the Grey Company to meet Aragon and then on the Paths of Dead, they were mortal because they were away from Elrond and Rivendell, but regained their immortality when they returned home? How does *that* work?

    Bear in mind that Elrond's kids are 3/4 Elf. Elros' descendents are, essentially, 100% Man. (And, of course, you do realize that Aragorn and Arwen are cousins about 100 times removed, don't you?)

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by DrnknElf View Post
    Actually, I would hazard to guess that biologically elves and men were the same. The fact that the union of the two races produced offspring which were themselves capable of reproduction would bear this out.

    ...

    Therefore it is very likely that dwarves are very different biologically as the race is not one of the Children of Eru.

    ...

    The race of Hobbits is an odd one. While I have not ready everything there is, as far as I know there is no cannon information with regards to the origins of hobbits. No one knows for sure exactly how they came about but it is said they are related to men.
    I wouldnt say the same, more that they are similar, how a Horse and a Donkey can produce a Mule/Hinny
    Horses and donkeys are different species.
    Mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes, a mixture of the horse's 64 and the donkey's 62. The different structure and number usually prevents the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos, rendering most mules infertile.
    Since 1527 there have been more than 60 documented cases of foals born to female mules around the world.

    There are other cross species, and not all are infertile.

    So I would say that they are biologically related probably from the same Genus (&&&&).

    While Hobbits are a sub species of Humans and should be free to cross breed.

    H. Neanderthalensis (same Genus) could breed with Humans (We have about 3% of our DNA from them) so that would be similar to the Elves.

    I would say though that Dwarves would be non Genus, maybe same Family, or possibly totally alien.

    Elves and Humans were created by the same creator, while dwaves had a different designer for their biology (maybeish)

    In a real world example:
    Elves are H. Neanderthalensis
    Humans are H. sapiens
    Hobbits are H. sapiens
    Dunedain are similar to Europeans (or Asians) who have a higher % of H. Neanderthalensis DNA
    Hobbits and Humans are similar to Africans who have a lower % of H. Neanderthalensis DNA (again in all real word groups this is a rather minor amount vs another minor amount(Say 3.000001% vs 3.000002%, in Tolkien's world this would be a not so minor amount vs none at all (5% vs 0%).)
    So we could say Hobbits are a distinct tribe in Nigeria and Humans are a distinct tribe in Sudan (Africa has the highest genetic diversity of all regions)

    Aka Hobbits are of zero biological difference, (only size and culture, aka the Amish)

    Now in this real world example, Hobbits can breed with normal humans (with physical and cultural restrictions), but Humans and Elves are an Iffy coupling.

    In the Extant Texts Tolkien implies that Hobbits are really just a branch of Men (Letter 131), specifically related to (but not descended from) the House of Haleth(trying to find this part).

    The only true difference between the races were the gifts bestowed upon them by Illuvatar. In the case of elves it was eternal life barring physical trauma which induced death as well as an immunity to poison and disease (which due to game mechanics Turbine had to fiddle with to avoid the race being too powerful) but at the cost of being tied permanently to Earth and the fate of the Earth. Men instead were given a finite life span but not being tied to the Earth and the fate of the Earth their "souls" would continue on in some unknown fashion. Nothing is said about what happens to their souls except that they are not tied to the Earth like the elves are.
    Well when the Elves traveled to Aman their souls were changed, and they then existed in two realms aka Glorfindal vs the Nazgul. It seems to be this second level of existance that Arwen gave up when she chose to become mortal.
    As for a Maia being able to take a body of whatever type, there are a couple of instances you should be aware of and in one case should pay closer attention to. Melian is a case in point. She took the body of an elf and bore elf children whom themselves bore other elf children.
    I would agree, she seems to have been able to make her body into a biological copy of (Or at least similar to) an Elf.

    You also have some bad information here. Elrond did have a choice and chose to be an elf. However, his children are a different matter. They themselves can't choose whether to be of the race of elves or men. They are essentially elven in that they are immortal but it comes with a price. They are only immortal as long as they are with Elrond. Elrond's physical place determines whether or not his children are immortal. As long as he stays in Middle Earth his children remain immortal as elves. When Elrond leaves to sail West his sons go with him and remain immortal. However, Arwen chose to remain in Middle Earth as the wife of Aragorn and therefore no longer had the gift of immortality.
    No I would say you are far off here. Elrond made the choice to be an elf.

    Arwen chose to be a mortal (Similar to Elves before the change, or Luthien) Her fate was joined with men, much as Tuor was still a man but was counted with the Elves. She would have died no matter if Elrond stayed or not.

    Elronds sons may have stayed in Middle Earth, if they did they would have chosen to become mortal. We don't know what happened to them. We do know that by the time of A New Shadow Rivendell would have been depopulated.
    Last edited by ararax2; Jul 23 2013 at 12:20 PM.
    Ararax

  24. #49
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    Female Dwarves

    If you watch Smaug's desolation of Erebor, I could have sworn I saw a female dwarf running out of there.

    But, then again, with Peter Jackson's closeness of telling the story of The Hobbit, I wouldn't be surprised if they had light sabers as well as swords.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrnknElf View Post
    You also have some bad information here. Elrond did have a choice and chose to be an elf. However, his children are a different matter. They themselves can't choose whether to be of the race of elves or men. They are essentially elven in that they are immortal but it comes with a price. They are only immortal as long as they are with Elrond. Elrond's physical place determines whether or not his children are immortal. As long as he stays in Middle Earth his children remain immortal as elves. When Elrond leaves to sail West his sons go with him and remain immortal. However, Arwen chose to remain in Middle Earth as the wife of Aragorn and therefore no longer had the gift of immortality.
    This is untrue. His sons stay in Rivendell when Elrond sails to the West and are seemingly allowed to delay their choice. Their grandfather Celeborn goes to live with them for a while. It is unknown at which point they finally do sail West, if at all.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

 

 
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