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  1. #1
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    Eagles! Y u no fly Frodo to Mordor?!

    WHY THE EAGLES COULDN'T JUST FLY TO MORDOR:

    The Eagles are not affected by the tidings of humans, they just don't care. Their pride would keep them from simply delivering people to Mordor like a taxi. The only reason they help Gandalf is because Gwaihir (The Eagle Lord) owes him a favor. But he only owed Gandalf a small favor, not winning the entire war. The main reason the eagles didn't help more is this: The Maia are there to guide. Gandalf is a Maia, he is a teacher to the people of middle earth, and just like as a teacher doesn't take your exams for you, he didn't fight their fights for them. Gandalf was so powerful that he was forbidden from challenging Sauron directly. He could've stood outside the gates of Minas Tirith, farted and every orc there would have dropped dead. Same principle applies to Gwaihir, he can only guide not win the war for them.

    Yes. Gandalf's fart is that powerful of a move.

    In Hipster terms:
    Eagles don't care 'bout us humans and dey ain't taxis. The wizards and eagles are so buff, they could defeat Mordor on their own. Dey like teachers. But dey only dere to guide, not fight. Plus dem eagles are too cool to be taxis.

    EDIT: Also, it would've made for one of the worst and most boring books ever.

  2. #2
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    Because if Frodo dropped the ring while he was a thousand feet in the air then they would all be screwed!

  3. #3
    Hmm, why not bomb Mordor with thousands of cheap copies of the Ring... Let Sauron sort out the mess.

  4. #4
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    What if the Nazgul (on Fellbeasts of course) had attacked with the Eagles in Mid-flight, and somehow managed to knock either Frodo or the Ring off one of the Eagles? Or what if Sauron or Saruman created inclement weather?
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    What if the Nazgul (on Fellbeasts of course) had attacked with the Eagles in Mid-flight, and somehow managed to knock either Frodo or the Ring off one of the Eagles? Or what if Sauron or Saruman created inclement weather?
    Sauron and Saruman had no control over weather; the most Saruman could do was shoot lightning out of his hand. Sauron could do almost nothing about the weather because he was not a Maia, he was just a servant of Morgoth. But I see where you are going with the Nazgul, only problem, they wouldn't know they were in Mordor until the ring was destroyed.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    Sauron and Saruman had no control over weather; the most Saruman could do was shoot lightning out of his hand. Sauron could do almost nothing about the weather because he was not a Maia, he was just a servant of Morgoth. But I see where you are going with the Nazgul, only problem, they wouldn't know they were in Mordor until the ring was destroyed.
    Are you referring to the nifty wizard fight between Saruman and Gandalf in "Fellowship" ? That only happened in the movie. In the book it was much more subdued. They had a conversation about the Ring and using it and then Gandalf was taken to a high place as captive.

    Sauron did indeed have some control over the weather - darkness poured out of Mordor once he set his armies in motion against Gondor and did not dissipate until the siege was broken and a wind from the sea came up Anduin (pushing Aragorn's fleet along with it). It may only have been some sort of control over Orodruin but it did seem to erupt when Sauron was about and active such as when he returned to Mordor in the Second Age after the fall of Numenore and again when he returned in the Third Age after leaving Dol Guldur.

    Sauron was originally a Maia of Aule but joined Morgoth early on in the history, before the awakening of the Elves and the breaking of Utumno.
    [FONT=Trebuchet MS]"You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    Sauron and Saruman had no control over weather; the most Saruman could do was shoot lightning out of his hand. Sauron could do almost nothing about the weather because he was not a Maia, he was just a servant of Morgoth. But I see where you are going with the Nazgul, only problem, they wouldn't know they were in Mordor until the ring was destroyed.
    Sauron was a Maia under Auel before he switched sides and served Morgoth.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    What if the Nazgul (on Fellbeasts of course) had attacked with the Eagles in Mid-flight, and somehow managed to knock either Frodo or the Ring off one of the Eagles? Or what if Sauron or Saruman created inclement weather?
    What if Shelob captured Frodo while he was trudging all the way to Mordor? What if he had to duel with Gollum at the last second?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    EDIT: Also, it would've made for one of the worst and most boring books ever.
    Well it would have had a complete book I. That would be still far less boring than that play about a Danish prince who ignores his father's ghost and goes on to be king.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorvlad View Post
    Hmm, why not bomb Mordor with thousands of cheap copies of the Ring... Let Sauron sort out the mess.
    That would make for a pretty cool comedy.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorvlad View Post
    Hmm, why not bomb Mordor with thousands of cheap copies of the Ring... Let Sauron sort out the mess.
    There would have to be a China in Middle-earth first.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BackAgainAndThere View Post
    Because if Frodo dropped the ring while he was a thousand feet in the air then they would all be screwed!
    And, they would probably not know where they are.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post

    EDIT: Also, it would've made for one of the worst and most boring books ever.
    This right here in a nutshell.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    This right here in a nutshell.
    Really, it's not that hard to tell.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    Really, it's not that hard to tell.

    It's true. I would say just about every work of fiction has a plot hole somewhere, and a fine work like Lord of the Rings is no exception. That's like the Matrix. That would be a BORING movie if you just put a ton of puppies on program loops instead of making a virtual world with human batteries hooked to it.

    My favorite plot hole is Princess Leia bringing the Death Star plans to Yavin even though she knew she was being tracked lol.

    Are there any plot holes in the book version of "The Hobbit"? I cannot think of any right off the top of my head.


    EDIT: Got logged out while submitting this post. Grrrr.......
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    It's true. I would say just about every work of fiction has a plot hole somewhere, and a fine work like Lord of the Rings is no exception. That's like the Matrix. That would be a BORING movie if you just put a ton of puppies on program loops instead of making a virtual world with human batteries hooked to it.

    My favorite plot hole is Princess Leia bringing the Death Star plans to Yavin even though she knew she was being tracked lol.

    Are there any plot holes in the book version of "The Hobbit"? I cannot think of any right off the top of my head.


    EDIT: Got logged out while submitting this post. Grrrr.......
    Plot holes? It depends how you look at them. One way is a plot swiss cheese filled with Deus Ex Machina. Except that really isn't true considering most of the characters bailing them out are already introduced.

    Plot:
    Trolls : bailed out by Gandalf
    Goblins: most of the party and dwarves are bailed out by Gandalf
    Riddles in the dark: Bilbo saves himself.
    Wargs: bailed out by Eagles

    interlude where Gandalf helps get Beorn to bail out the company

    Quite a bit were Bilbo bails out the dwarves, mostly with the One Ring.

    Plot hole alert!: There is the question of Dwarf survival in waterproof casks. Sure, they should breath (waterproof != airtight). But how much do they (it gets pretty close, especially since most of them didn't leak)? Also dwarves in leaky casks (a few of them) were likely to die of hypothermia. Apparently dwarves really do have that high a vitality score.

    Finally, Bilbo's ring is no match for a dragon (Tolkien wouldn't make it the One Ring for awhile, nor would Bilbo have the power to make it so). So we go back to the standard plot:
    Bard slays Smaug, bails out company.
    Company is repeatedly bailed out, especially during the 5 armies (Dwalin, Beorn, and the Eagles show up glad to help).
    Bilbo goes home (much less help needed).

    I suppose you could call it a "heroic journey" (especially for kids) as Bilbo goes from being bailed out all the time to bailing out the dwarves (with the help of the ring). Once things go beyond a hobbit (dragons, wars), he goes back to needing such help. I wouldn't go claiming the reason people like the Hobbit is because of the plot.

  16. #16
    You forgot Bilbo bailing himself and the company from the giant spiders, actually being the one who found the back door, being smart enough to find Smaug's weak spot, and executing a very daring stratagem to blackmail Thorin out of a standoff with Arkenstone. I'd say Bilbo does a lot of heroic stuff for a small and timid hobbit...

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    WHY THE EAGLES COULDN'T JUST FLY TO MORDOR:

    The Eagles are not affected by the tidings of humans, they just don't care. Their pride would keep them from simply delivering people to Mordor like a taxi. The only reason they help Gandalf is because Gwaihir (The Eagle Lord) owes him a favor. But he only owed Gandalf a small favor, not winning the entire war. The main reason the eagles didn't help more is this: The Maia are there to guide. Gandalf is a Maia, he is a teacher to the people of middle earth, and just like as a teacher doesn't take your exams for you, he didn't fight their fights for them. Gandalf was so powerful that he was forbidden from challenging Sauron directly. He could've stood outside the gates of Minas Tirith, farted and every orc there would have dropped dead. Same principle applies to Gwaihir, he can only guide not win the war for them.

    Yes. Gandalf's fart is that powerful of a move.

    In Hipster terms:
    Eagles don't care 'bout us humans and dey ain't taxis. The wizards and eagles are so buff, they could defeat Mordor on their own. Dey like teachers. But dey only dere to guide, not fight. Plus dem eagles are too cool to be taxis.

    EDIT: Also, it would've made for one of the worst and most boring books ever.
    Gandalf, wind breaking skills aside, was an Istari (one of five) - it is not known that he is a Maia - only speculated because of the power they have and the link between the character Olorin (listed as the wisest of the Maiar) and the early pseudonym of Gandalf being Olorin. Though, if he was Olorin 'The wisest', this doesn't explain Saruman's lofty position on Middle Earth.

    Sauron was a Maia tainted by Melkor.

    This forbidding of power I always understood was to stop the Istari themselves having power over others - something Saruman obviously failed at and became corrupted causing his removal from the order of Istari.

    It's all speculation anyway. As you say, would have been a boring book if in Chapter one Gandalf flies an Eagle straight to Mordor, stands outside Barad Dur and lets one off, wiping out an entire Orc Expeditionary force equipping itself for war, then casually flicks the ring into the fiery chasms of Mount Doom...don't think I would have enjoyed that plot much
    Last edited by Cjdobs; Sep 16 2013 at 11:50 AM.
    If in danger from Red, Call Glod.....

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cjdobs View Post
    it is not known that he is a Maia - only speculated because of the power they have and the link between the character Olorin
    The five Istari are definitely Maia, that has never been in dispute.
    Last edited by Wolfhelm; Sep 16 2013 at 09:41 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfhelm View Post
    The five Istari are definitely Maia, that has never been in dispute.
    Hey, If you and yours don't dispute it, that is fair enough. I know plenty of Tolkien fans and scholars that do.

    I don't dispute the Istari were sent from Valinor because I have read that in his works and its a fair assumption to make they are Maiar (plural of Maia - that's not in dispute either ).

    Was just pointing out, the 'maybe'....

    It was heavily disputed at Onering.net, Ringbearer and other forums for years and still is. Be interested to see a definitive from the text that states they are if anyone can share...
    If in danger from Red, Call Glod.....

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cjdobs View Post
    Hey, If you and yours don't dispute it, that is fair enough. I know plenty of Tolkien fans and scholars that do.

    I don't dispute the Istari were sent from Valinor because I have read that in his works and its a fair assumption to make they are Maiar (plural of Maia - that's not in dispute either ).

    Was just pointing out, the 'maybe'....

    It was heavily disputed at Onering.net, Ringbearer and other forums for years and still is. Be interested to see a definitive from the text that states they are if anyone can share...
    Men, therefore, grew to fear them, even when they loved them, and they were held to be of the Elven-race (with whom, indeed, they often consorted).
    Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores. Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.

    - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Essay on the Istari
    and J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Unfinished Tales part 4, chaper II The Istari

    "Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh."
    But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë.
    Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice).
    But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
    The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.
    - J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Unfinished Tales part 4, chaper II The Istari
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Sep 17 2013 at 08:00 AM.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  21. #21
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    The bottom line is that the eagles could, but they didn't. Tolkien didn't think it well enough through, like many other things.
    Nerf healing in PvMP and just maybe it will be worth it again.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Men, therefore, grew to fear them, even when they loved them, and they were held to be of the Elven-race (with whom, indeed, they often consorted).
    Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores. Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.

    - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Essay on the Istari
    and J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Unfinished Tales part 4, chaper II The Istari

    "Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh."
    But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë.
    Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice).
    But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
    The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.
    - J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Unfinished Tales part 4, chaper II The Istari
    I stand corrected (said the man in the orthopaedic shoes).

    "For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years."

    This all started because I said 'may have been' not 'is'.... Both Gandalf and Saruman are referred to primarily as Istari in most reference books and that they 'may have been Maiar' - that's all I'm saying

    Thank you for sharing. Nice work
    If in danger from Red, Call Glod.....

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Cjdobs View Post
    Maiar (plural of Maia - that's not in dispute either ).

    Was just pointing out, the 'maybe'....

    It was heavily disputed at Onering.net, Ringbearer and other forums for years and still is. Be interested to see a definitive from the text that states they are if anyone can share...
    They've been disputing something with such an obvious answer, for years even, must be very argumentative people over there

    I accept the spelling correction though, my bad.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfhelm View Post
    They've been disputing something with such an obvious answer, for years even, must be very argumentative people over there

    I accept the spelling correction though, my bad.
    Nah, my bad for playing Grammar Nazi (hangs head in shame). And you're right, lots of squabbling 'over there' ...and way too many 'swoon' threads

    Something struck me yesterday about the Maiar thing, It's like the planet Pluto. We were taught at school it's a planet. My son now tells me it's a large star and not a planet - access to more information changes the 'facts' I grew up with.

    Every day is a learning opportunity
    If in danger from Red, Call Glod.....

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cjdobs View Post

    It's all speculation anyway. As you say, would have been a boring book if in Chapter one Gandalf flies an Eagle straight to Mordor, stands outside Barad Dur and lets one off, wiping out an entire Orc Expeditionary force equipping itself for war, then casually flicks the ring into the fiery chasms of Mount Doom...don't think I would have enjoyed that plot much

    I remember about 20 years ago when I was watching a Jet LI movie one of my wife's uncles asked me why didn't the bad guy or Jet Li just bring a gun, and I answered "because if they did that they could not have the Kung Fu fight" lol.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

 

 

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