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  1. #1

    A soon to be obsolete guide to Lore-master legacies, written in Update 11

    THIS THREAD IS NOW OBSOLETE.
    READ ONLY FOR NOSTALGIA.




    Code:
    Change log
    
    Nov 22, 2013 -- Thread obsoleted by changes made in the launch of Helm's Deep
    Aug 13, 2013 -- Fixed link broken by forum revamp, some typos, and an error under Fire Damage Over Time

    So I started this as a response to this thread here, but it quickly grew beyond the scope of a reply. It's probably too wordy and rife with personal opinion, but I hope those new to Lore-mastering will at least find it a helpful place to start. At least until Helm's Deep launches. If you're reading this and Helm's Deep has already launched, stop. It's gibberish.

    There are two sections with two subsections each.


    Staff Legacies

    Major

    Minor


    Book Legacies

    Major

    Minor


    The section headers contain a brief overview of all legacies. The subsections go more in-depth about each specific legacy and include my own personal rating. Bare in mind that those ratings are purely my own opinion and are in relation to other legacies in their category. Some legacies with low ratings would be fantastic in a vacuum, but fall short when compared to their peers.

    A good general overview of legacies can be found on the wiki. This guide follows the order found on the wiki. Unless of course Helm's Deep has launched. If Helm's Deep has launched, it doesn't. Sometimes change stinks.

    Something to know about the wiki, however, is the ratings found on the website are different from those found in-game. Percentages and cooldown reductions are all correct as far as I can tell, but the ratings are not correct. Unless of course Helm's Deep has launched. If Helm's Deep has launched, they might be. Sometimes change is roses. The pretty, fragrant part, not the thorns. Though sometimes the thorny part, too. But not always.

    Anyway.

    A very, very useful tool can be found here. It allows you to play around with spending points on your legendary items. It's a few years obsolete, but the functionality and legacies of LIs today are the same as they were when this tool was created. Unless of course today is after Helm's Deep has launched. In which case... yeah...
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Nov 22 2013 at 03:06 PM.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  2. #2
    THIS THREAD IS NOW OBSOLETE.
    READ ONLY FOR NOSTALGIA.


    Staff Legacies Overview


    The staff is all about damage with all but one legacy devoted to dps skills. For that reason, the discussions for each legacy are written from the perspective of maximizing dps. Tactical Skills Direct Damage is an absolute must. It doesn't matter which build you’re going for with your staff, that legacy is absolutely necessary. Fire Skills Critical Multiplier and Burning Embers Initial Damage are almost as important. After that, it comes down to personal preference.


    My Staff:
    Tactical Damage Rating (Maxed)
    Tactical Skills Direct Damage (+10%)
    Fire Skills Critical Multiplier (+25%)
    Burning Embers Initial Damage (+15%)
    Staff-strike Cooldown (-5s)
    Cracked Earth Damage (+13.2%)
    Lightning Skills Critical Rating (+774)
    Will (+65)

    Other legacies you will commonly see slotted:
    Ents Go To War Direct Damage
    Sticky Gourd Direct Damage
    Cracked Earth Range
    Burning Embers Range
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Nov 22 2013 at 03:06 PM.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  3. #3
    THIS THREAD IS NOW OBSOLETE.
    READ ONLY FOR NOSTALGIA.


    Staff Major Legacies


    Burning Embers Initial Damage (+15% Max)

    Burning Embers is a Lore-master’s most often used dps skill. It has the shortest cooldown, and, especially with a Burning Embers pulses legacy on a book, is almost always one of the top three damage dealing skills no matter the encounter. In a prolonged single-target fight, Burning Embers is your best dps skill, period, unless the target is immune to fire damage. In PvP, you’re generally looking to enhance skills that do more spike damage, but this is still a great general purpose dps legacy.

    Rating: 5/5 PvE; 4/5 PvP


    Cracked Earth Range (+20m Max)

    Cracked Earth is a great, great skill. Even without the root, it can be the second-best aoe skill behind Improved Sticky Gourd because it deals fire damage and has a relatively short cooldown. Pretty much every dps bonus the Lore-master gets is geared towards fire skills. If you also make sure and use Improved Staff-sweep to gain a +45% crit chane to fire skills before using, Cracked Earth can do a lot of damage. Add in the root, and Cracked Earth stands as one of the best skills on the Lore-master bar. That said, added range is probably only useful in PvP. Some folks use it in PvE, but there are other, more useful PvE legacies out there.

    Rating: 2/5 PvE; 4/5 PvP


    Fire Skills Critical Multiplier (+25% Max)

    Fire skills make up the lion’s share of Lore-master dps. Melee, depending on whether the encounter is multi-target or single-target, ranges from about 15% to 40% of your total dps. Non-fire, non-melee skill damage can spike, but usually maxes out around 10%. Fire skill damage always accounts for at least 40% of your dps and can account for up to 100%. Add in the fact that you should have a high critical rating as a Lore-master and the bonus to fire skill critical chance from Improved Staff-sweep, and this legacy becomes very, very useful in any build.

    For every mob you hit with Improved Staff-sweep, you gain a +15% Fire Skills Critical Chance buff that stacks to a maximum of three times. This buff stacks with your own critical chance as well as any critical chance debuffs on mobs, all of which can sometimes sum to more than a 70% critical chance. That's insane. Plus, if that's not enough, the buff remains on you until you crit a fire skill. With a smooth rotation, it is very easy to crit around 40% of your fire skills in a multi-mob encounter and spike above 50%. A fifty... stinking... percent crit rate. Chew on that for a minute. This is how Lore-masters can, at times, approach Champion levels of aoe dps despite having skills with such long cooldowns.

    Rating: 5/5


    Light of the Rising Dawn Critical Multiplier (+15% Max)

    Light of the Rising Dawn is another great skill. Good base damage, light damage-type which can be handy, plus a stun. That said, it’s on a 15 second cooldown when traited red and on a 30 second cooldown when not. That means, if you could somehow max your crit, the most use you would get out of this legacy is about 15% bonus damage on one cast of one skill about once every minute. Now compare that to Fire Skills Critical Multiplier which enhances five skills and has a maximum magnitude of +25% rather than +15%. I think you see where I’m going with this.

    Rating: 1/5


    Light of the Rising Dawn Damage (+15% Max)

    Definitely more useful than the crit multiplier legacy because it enhances every use of the skill, but still suffers from the fact that it only affects one skill that’s on a minimum 15 second cooldown.

    Rating: 2/5


    Share the Power Increase (+10% Max)

    Finally! A non-dps legacy for a supposedly non-dps class. It’s just a shame that the magnitude isn’t that large. The idea of the legacy is great, but limiting the benefit to 10% isn’t very helpful anymore. Even in my most taxing runs, the most power that I give out to the group for the entire encounter rarely tops 30,000 and that’s doled out in about fifteen casts. That means, for an average raid, this legacy would save one or two casts of Share the Power. That’s like, nothin'. In contrast, total dps usually reaches the hundreds of thousands as does total heals. Before the sweeping changes they made to power earlier this year, this legacy was useful at times. Now, it’s just not.

    However, this is the one staff legacy, major or minor, that works well on a clicky. For an explanation of clickies, please read the Book Legacies Overview section. This legacy works on a clicky because Share the Power is technically a heal skill. That means it is much more affected by the magnitude of the Tactical Healing Rating found on your book rather than any stat found on your staff. Experiment a little and you will find that damage skills are drastically affected by the quality of your staff while healing skills like Share the Power and Beacon of Hope are barely affected at all. You can therefore carry around a Third Age LI with Share the Power on it and gain all of the benefits of this legacy while sacrificing only a click or two of the mouse.

    Rating: 2/5 in groups only; put it on a clicky!


    Staff Strike Cooldown (-5s Max)

    This is perhaps the most controversial legacy because it taps into the debate about whether or not the Lore-master is a melee class. Your valuation of this legacy will vary depending on where you stand in that debate. Personally, I love it for a couple of reasons.

    First, I usually have Master of the Staff traited which, among its many bonuses, gives Staff-strike a chance to stun. Maxing this legacy halves the cooldown of Staff-strike, and half the cooldown means twice the stuns. I also find Staff-strike to be a vital part of my single-target dps rotation. I can usually keep up a very steady rotation with Burning Embers, Staff-strike, Light of the Rising Dawn, and Staff-sweep, BUT only if I have this legacy slotted. About every third rotation, I’ll have to throw in Cracked Earth, but for the most part it’s just those four skills over and over plus Sticky Gourd whenever it's off cooldown. Without this legacy, my rotation becomes very disjointed and I have to use Gust of Wind every now and then. When single-target dpsing, one should never, ever have to use Gust of Wind. Ever.

    That’s only PvE, however. In the moors, things are always disjointed so this legacy probably won’t be as useful for you there as some of the direct damage skill bonuses found in the minor legacies.

    Rating: 5/5 PvE, 2/5 PvP


    Tactical Skills Direct Damage (+10% Max)

    Slot it. Of your 12 skills that deal damage, this increases the damage of 10. This is the only legacy you don't have to fret about. Just slot it.

    Rating: Slot it already!
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Nov 22 2013 at 03:07 PM.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  4. #4
    THIS THREAD IS NOW OBSOLETE.
    READ ONLY FOR NOSTALGIA.


    Staff Minor Legacies



    Burning Embers Range (+10m Max)

    Same things that were said about Cracked Earth Range apply here, though this legacy is slightly less useful. Burning Embers has a 30m base range rather than Cracked Earth’s 25m base range. Still, some folks love it.

    Rating: 1/5 PvE, 3/5 PvP


    Cracked Earth Damage (+15% Max)

    I’ve already extolled Cracked Earth in the +range entry so I’ll refrain from doing so again here. If you’ll recall, however, this can be your second-best aoe damage skill behind Improved Sticky Gourd (ISG). Unlike ISG, though, all damage from Cracked Earth is considered direct damage. ISG has a direct damage component and a fire damage over time (DoT) component, and ISG's legacy only enhances the initial, direct damage component. Further, Cracked Earth’s cooldown is shorter than ISG's at 10 seconds as opposed to 30 seconds. That makes this legacy very, very useful when traited for dps. A post further down on has a more in-depth analysis.

    Also, anytime you trait something other than red, ISG turns into just plain Sticky Gourd and goes from a fantastic aoe skill to a mediocre single-target skill on a long cooldown. Cracked Earth then takes its place as your best aoe damage skill and outshines all other contenders by far. Another post with more info.

    Over the entire course of playing your Lore-master, it is quite possible that you will get more benefit out of this legacy than any other minor legacy. If you mostly PvP, that’s less true, but if you mostly PvE, this is an extremely useful legacy.

    Rating: 4.5/5 PvE; 2/5 PvP


    Ents Go To War Damage (+10% Max)

    Ents Go To War. What an awesome, awesome skill. So much damage that you can one-shot creeps plus, plus!, it’s aoe and has a 6 second stun! It is the rare occasion that warrants deslotting this skill. It happens, but it’s rare. That said, this legacy is niche because Ents has a 2 minute cooldown (edit: or 5 minutes when not traited at least four red as Tatharil pointed out). It can be incredibly useful or incredibly wasteful depending on how you build your character. Some folks build solely to maximize the damage from this skill, and, given its power, it’s hard to argue with them. Being able to, at times, spike damage for 15k morale can be very useful. I myself try to build for the long haul, however, and find other legacies more useful.

    Rating: 2/5 PvE; 5/5 PvP… or 4/5 PvP… or 3—look, this one comes down to you.


    Gust of Wind Damage (+15% Max)

    Don’t slot it. Don’t even think about slotting it. If you’ve already thought about slotting it, block it from your memory and continue on your way. Gust of Wind is not a dps skill. Gust of Wind is a debuff skill that breaks mezzes.

    Rating: 0/5


    Lightning Skills Critical Rating (+840 Max)

    This can be a very niche legacy since it only affects two skills which both have very long cooldowns. Those skills are Storm-lore and Lightning Storm. However, this legacy, unlike legacies examined thus far, is a rating. That warrants a slightly different approach.

    Unlike percent bonus or cooldown reduction legacies, rating legacies don’t need to be ranked up to become effective. As an example, the difference between rank 1 and rank 9 on a Fire Skills Critical Multiplier legacy is 22%. That’s a lot. The difference between rank 1 and rank 9 on a Lightning Skills Critical Rating legacy is +64 in rating. When converted from rating to percentage, that’s about 0.1%. Practically nothing. So the nice thing about this legacy is you can get almost its max benefit just by slotting it and spend those precious LI points on other legacies. Still, main stat legacies work in a similar way and can benefit all of your skills rather than just the aforementioned two. But, I do love it when Lightning Storm crits.

    Rating: 3/5 (because I’m biased... 2/5 is probably more accurate)


    Lightning Storm Damage (+10%)

    Lightning Storm is perhaps the coolest skill in the game. Yes, coolest is a word, and it most certainly applies. It is the Lore-master recruiting tool. How many times have you either cast it or seen it cast and heard someone say, “Ooooo!”? Crazy cool animation, massive damage, big, big wow factor. Some folks roll a Lore-master just so they can use this skill. It is awesome.

    As legacies go, however, this is one of the more niche. Like Ents Go to War, Lightning Storm is a burst dps skill on a terribly long cooldown. However, unlike Ents, you can’t really build for Lightning Storm's damage because everything about the Lore-master builds for fire damage, not lightning damage. For those reasons, the benefit you’ll see from this legacy is fairly small. Still, some folks want Lightning Storm to hit as hard as it can when they do use it.

    Rating: 1/5 PvE; 2/5 PvP


    Sticky Gourd Direct Damage (+10% Max)

    This can be a quite useful legacy. Sticky Gourd does not spike for nearly as much damage as Ents or Lightning Storm, but Sticky Gourd has a 30 second cooldown rather than 2 minutes and 5 minutes, respectively. ISG is also a Lore-master's highest dps skill by far in multi-mob, PvE encounters, but there’s a caveat. About half the damage from ISG comes from the damage-over-time (DoT) hotspots it lays down. This legacy only increases the initial, direct damage from Sticky Gourd, NOT the DoT hotspots. However, given the frequency with which ISG is used, you would be completely justified in slotting it.

    Rating: 3/5


    Storm-lore Damage (+15% Max)

    No.

    Rating: 0/5


    Test of Will Damage (+15% Max)

    Double no.

    Rating: 0/5
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Nov 22 2013 at 03:07 PM.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  5. #5
    THIS THREAD IS NOW OBSOLETE.
    READ ONLY FOR NOSTALGIA.


    Book Legacies Overview


    Unlike the staff, it is very possible to tailor your book for either DPS, support, or a little of both. The thing to keep in mind is, for a main book, it's helpful to get as many major legacies slots as possible. Whichever role you're building for, you’re going to want a book that has at least 4 major legacy slots so you can add a fifth with a Crystal of Remembrance. If you can get a book with 5 majors and add a 6, that would be even better. The reason is, most minor book legacies are just as effective when placed on a clicky as on a main book.

    A 'clicky' is an item you equip just before casting, then unequip after the skill is cast. As an example, place the Fire-lore targets minor book legacy on a clicky, equip the clicky just before casting to get the +5 targets bonus, then unequip the clicky and go back to your main book until you need to cast Fire-lore again.

    My book:
    Tactical Healing Rating (Maxed)
    Target Resistance (Debuffing Skills) (-4,400 rating)
    Wizard’s Fire Pulses (+6 pulses)
    Fire Skills Critical Rating (+776 rating)
    Burning Embers Pulses (+9 pulses)
    Sings of Power Duration (+30s)
    Fire Damage Over Time (+15%)
    Will (+63)

    Clicky:
    Fire-lore Targets
    Bane Flare Targets
    Morale – Sign of Power: Protection
    Threat – Sign of Power: Rage

    Other legacies you will commonly see:
    Target Resistance (Damaging Skills)
    Target Resistance (Fire Skills)
    Beacon of Hope Healing
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Nov 22 2013 at 03:07 PM.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  6. #6
    THIS THREAD IS NOW OBSOLETE.
    READ ONLY FOR NOSTALGIA.


    Book Major Legacies


    Burning Embers Pulses (+9 Max)

    This legacy and the fact that Burning Embers’ bleed stacks three times are what make Burning Embers such a fantastic dps skill. I won’t say much, I’ll just show you the numbers (all numbers pulled from my build while traited red):

    Avg. Initial Damage: 1,500
    Avg. Bleed Damage: 450 per pulse
    Avg. Total damage from one cast with maxed legacy: 6,450
    Avg. Total damage from one cast without legacy: 2,400

    These are all base numbers which do not include crits. And yes, bleeds can crit. Slot this legacy, and max it out.

    Rating: 5/5


    Fire Skills Critical Rating (+840 Max)

    Again, a rating. The book has a few rating legacies and most of them can be useful, this included. What’s nice is that this one, unlike the Lightning Skills Critical Rating on the staff, enhances skills that are the backbone of your dps rotation. Plus, like any rating, you don’t have to rank it up to receive benefit from it. For any dps build, this legacy is close to mandatory.

    Rating: 4.5/5 for DPS builds; 1/5 Otherwise


    Healing from Beacon of Hope (+15% max)

    This legacy, like the Staff-strike major staff legacy, can generate some healthy discussion. No doubt it’s a useful legacy, but, the question is, how useful?

    Beacon of Hope is a great skill. Even with the introduction of Water-lore, Beacon of Hope is the only reactive heal skill that a Lore-master possesses. There are times when a well-timed Beacon of Hope can save a character from death, and, depending on how essential that character is, save a group from a wipe. The problem is that situation doesn’t arise terribly often. Especially raiding, if a Lore-master’s Beacon of Hope is counted on to swing a group from defeat to victory, there are probably some deep problems in that group. In general, Beacon of Hope is a handy skill that helps to take the pressure off main healers from time to time. It is much more useful when pet-tanking or main-healing instances, but the vast majority of Lore-masters don’t attempt either.

    So what about the legacy? Well, an extra 15% is useful, but you will rarely have Light of Hope traited which means Beacon of Hope will stay on a 30 second cooldown. That usually motivates folks to save it until absolutely needed and use Water-lore instead. Plus, I generally find, even when main-healing, that Beacon of Hope accounts for at most 10% of my total heals. An extra 15% on that small amount does not suddenly turn a Lore-master into a viable healer. Perhaps if the bonus were larger, it would be different, but, as it is, this legacy takes a Lore-master from a barely serviceable healer to, well, a barely serviceable healer with a slightly better burst heal.

    Now, since this legacy works as a percentage, one might think you could put it on a clicky. There are a couple of problems with that. First, like I said, Beacon of Hope is usually a reactive heal. In other words, so-and-so needs a heal, like, now, or he’s a goner. In those situations, taking the time to equip a clicky usually means your target is dead before you get the heal off. Also, the magnitude of Beacon of Hope’s heal is greatly affected by the magnitude of the Tactical Healing Rating that comes on all books. The higher the quality of the book, the higher its Tactical Healing Rating which yields higher magnitude heals. As an example, going from a First Age book with three crystals on it to a Third Age book with none decreases the magnitude of Beacon of Hope from an average of 2,200 morale to an average of 1,600. Even if that Third Age book had this legacy on it and maxed, you would end up with a worse heal over-all.

    That said, if all you're building your Lore-master for is support, you might as well slot it. When dps is not a concern, the only useful major legacies on the book are Signs of Power Duration, Target Resistance (Debuffing), and this one. Maybe Target Resistance (Damaging) as well if you plan on using Cracked Earth for its root. If you plan on traiting for the situation, however, and need a book that is effective in all trait configurations, make sure you understand exactly what this legacy gets you and the opportunities it costs you before deciding whether or not to slot it.

    Rating: 3/5


    Signs of Power Durations (+30s Max)

    Slot it. This may be the only Lore-master legacy that is useful no matter the circumstance. It can be more or less useful depending on the situation, but it is never useless. Never. First off, it extends Signs of Power: Righteousness which is incredibly useful. That can save you from having to waste a precious trait slot on Dunedan-learning or, with Dunedan-learning, allow you to keep stun immunity (SI) up on an entire raid. A lot of encounters are made a lot easier with SI, and a couple almost require it.

    Second, it extends Sign of Power: See All Ends (SoP:SaE). In both support and dps roles, that is incredibly useful. When traited yellow for support, the only way to get 100% coverage is with this legacy. Force of Will, the yellow capstone trait, only improves the duration of SoP:SaE from 15 seconds to 45 seconds while its cooldown remains at 60 seconds. This legacy extends the duration to 75 seconds allowing for full coverage. When traited for dps, SoP:SaE can still be very useful. You can still get 45 seconds of coverage out of every 60 with this legacy. That helps the tank, but further, if you’re willing to do some gear swapping, you can equip four pieces of the Draigoch set before casting. This will put a +5% Incoming Critical Chance on the mob which stacks with players’ base critical chance, even beyond the cap! That can have a large impact not only on your dps, but on your entire group’s as well.

    No matter your build, whether it be for raiding, soloing, PvPing, dpsing, or support, you will find this legacy incredibly useful.

    Now, I should mention that you can put this legacy on a clicky if you wish. The problem with that is Sign of Power skills just seem to get used too often to make doing so viable.

    Rating: 5/5


    Target Resistance (Damaging, Debuffing, or Fire Skills) (-4664, -2060, -2060 Max)

    These legacies are perhaps the ones that Lore-masters fret over the most. Which skills do each one affect? Which are necessary? Which are luxuries? If I have enough finesse, do I really need them at all?

    I’m afraid I can’t give a concrete answer, but I can give you some information. First, a dev actually posted which legacies affect which skills in the November 2010 Update release notes that can be found here (you may have to scroll down a little). Note that every skill listed under Fire Skills is also listed under Damaging Skills. It is widely assumed that these resistance legacies therefore stack.

    Second, I can relay my own experience. I usually run with 4,000 to 5,000 finesse and only have the Debuffing Skills resistance legacy on my book. My debuff skills are almost never resisted. My damaging skills are resisted around 3% to 4% of the time. I therefore tend to assume that you need around 10,000 total –resist stats to ensure that your skills are not resisted in PvE. Ten thousand finesse is a lot to ask for, but six thousand finesse plus a couple of resistance legacies is a lot easier to build. (Edit: As Carolas points out, the finesse, resists balancing act has been approached many times by many different folks. I suggest looking for more threads if you want to learn more.)

    The question, then, that you have to ask yourself is whether or not you can live with resists and, if so, from which skills? In raids, I would argue a Debuffing skills legacy is mandatory. In PvP, you probably want to go first with a Damaging skills legacy, and then with a Fire skills legacy if you have room. In any case, you should always have at least one of these legacies slotted.

    Rating: 5/5


    Wizard’s Fire Pulses (+9 Max)

    This legacy is much, much less useful than the Burning Embers Pulses legacy because Wizard’s Fire deals a lot less damage, is resisted a lot more often for some strange reason, and does not stack. PvE, this legacy is hardly useful at all, but PvP, it is useful more as a strategic skill than a DPS skill. Wizard’s Fire is the only ranged, DPS skill—and one of the few in general—that a Lore-master can cast while moving. With this legacy, Wizard’s Fire becomes an insta-cast bleed that can be used on the run and lasts an entire minute.

    Rating: 2/5 PvE; 3/5 PvP
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Nov 22 2013 at 03:07 PM.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by kriskrosed View Post
    Staff Strike Cooldown (-5s Max)
    This is perhaps the most controversial legacy because it taps into the debate about whether or not the Lore-master is a melee class. Your valuation of this legacy will vary depending on where you stand in that debate. Personally, I love it for a couple of reasons.
    Though i heard arguments about this a lot of times, the matter itself isn't debatable at all. When the LMs main role is DPS he MUST be at melee range unless the mobs are doing above average full AoE dmg constantly. So SS CD maxed will give u a lot of extra DPS.
    Have examined my combat log a thousand times. 1/3 of my DPS is from melee(auto-attacks+2skills). Also u cant ignore the crit buff u only get if u r melee(and running to do SS and back will lower ur DPS again).

    In PvP indeed is less useful unless u r more into spars.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
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    448
    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbiner View Post
    Regarding clickys: I have one on my mini with anthem of war/rally but i just don't find it necessary on my lm apart from the odd time i need fire lore targets.
    I use the BE and WF pulses legacies on my main book but keep a separate book without those legacies for when I play more of a CC role. The last thing I want to do in a CC role is make my target CC-proof because my BE/WF DoTs last for a minute.
    Join the LotRO Volunteer QA Team!
    Use the bug reporting tool or type /bug in-game!*
    *no rants please

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by banjolier View Post
    I use the BE and WF pulses legacies on my main book but keep a separate book without those legacies for when I play more of a CC role. The last thing I want to do in a CC role is make my target CC-proof because my BE/WF DoTs last for a minute.
    Why would you even use Be on a target you wanted to lock down ?

  10. #10
    I see a lot of people bumping their BE and WF durations up to a full minute - do people use this so they can spread around a lot of DoT's against multiple enemies?

    Personally, I found that against large groups, I'm hitting all my AoE skills. Versus a single boss target, I would hope that I'm firing more than 3 BE per minute. I typically find that a smaller duration increase (around 30 seconds) is all that is needed to keep 3 BE DoT stacks on at all times, which saves more points to spend on other legacies.

    I see the value of the long duration in PvP, just not so much in PvE.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Toreldor View Post
    I see a lot of people bumping their BE and WF durations up to a full minute - do people use this so they can spread around a lot of DoT's against multiple enemies?

    Personally, I found that against large groups, I'm hitting all my AoE skills. Versus a single boss target, I would hope that I'm firing more than 3 BE per minute. I typically find that a smaller duration increase (around 30 seconds) is all that is needed to keep 3 BE DoT stacks on at all times, which saves more points to spend on other legacies.

    I see the value of the long duration in PvP, just not so much in PvE.

    That is an excellent observation to make. A minute-long bleed for a skill on a three second cooldown can sound excessive. That you keep yours limited to around thirty seconds is completely legit especially for the reasons you gave about single-target dpsing and using LI points on other legacies.

    To answer your question specifically, no, I don’t think folks max it out to spread around multiple enemies. At least, I do not. Nor do I think maxing the bleed is only useful for PvP.

    For me, it all comes down to the fact that I only want to carry one main book around. That means my book has to work in all situations in which I choose to play. That does include straight dpsing in groups, but it also includes grouping in both support and main-healing roles, soloing the easier 3-man and 6-man instances, and, on occasion, tanking.

    On the average week, I would guess I spend about 20% of my time filling a dps role and 80% of my time in other roles or hybrids of them. In a lot of those other roles, maxing out the bleed is useful because it saves both time and power.

    Tanking is akin to straight dpsing so a maxed legacy is a bit wasteful there, but, in other situations, a maxed legacy allows you to still get a healthy amount of dps from Burning Embers while only throwing it out three times per minute. That leaves more time for all of the other skills that keep both you and your group alive, or, if power is tight, allows you to slow down your application of dps skills with the comfort of knowing that your dps is still rolling.

    As an example, when farming easier instances solo like T1 Stoneheight or T1 Fornost Water, in boss fights, I’ll place three BE bleeds, a WF bleed, and ISG bleed on the boss with a raven debuff and tar and then wait for them to expire before applying new bleeds. That provides an adequate amount of dps while saving a ton of power for self-heals and debuffs. For another example, in BfE, I’ll make sure I keep up my three BE bleeds and WF, then spend the rest of my time making sure I have SI on those that need it, off-heal, share power, and debuff. With so many other things to keep up, a longer bleed helps my sanity.

    In the end, it’s about making things easier on myself. I feel like maxing the legacy gives me that. Sometimes the long bleed is wasteful, yes, but on the balance I find it very helpful. If you feel like thirty seconds is all that you need, I think that’s great. It irks me when folks condemn others for how they set up their LIs like there is some absolute template out there that is better than all others. There isn’t. LIs should reflect your play-style, and it sounds like yours does. That’s really good to see.

    Why I was so adamant about maxing it in the guide is because I’m biased. Wait, no, where did that come from? Heh, little Freudian Slip there. Okay, yes, I am biased toward my own build. Who wouldn’t be?

    In seriousness though, I felt that a new player would get a lot more mileage out of a maxed BE legacy than most others. A new player generally takes some time to figure out how to navigate content and fit into groups. A maxed legacy gives them the ability to keep up a good amount of dps while their fingers get up to speed. I would definitely expect them to form their own opinions as they grew more comfortable with the class, but I felt the recommendations above would give them a solid place to start.
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Jul 19 2013 at 01:58 AM.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazlo10 View Post
    Why would you even use Be on a target you wanted to lock down ?
    Remember, BE is also a movement speed debuff -- it's another tool in your CC/debuff toolkit. You might want to slow one mob early in the combat while locking down some other target, then at some later point come back to the slowed mob and lock them down.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazlo10 View Post
    Why would you even use Be on a target you wanted to lock down ?
    Another, albeit rare case is locking down two targets that have adaptation (Orthanc Raids). It is worth running with an Eagle to get the extra CC type (fear), but that requires a BE to activate.

    Ideally, you would

    1. BF first target
    2. BE+Fan the flames (Eagle) the second target
    3. (15 seconds later), BF is off cooldown - BF the second target as its fear wears off
    4. Cycle through other CC skills that target has not adapted to.


    Its worth using fan the flames early, since it has a 1 minute cooldown - meaning you can get the full 30s daze, 30s root, 15s fear + 5 sec stun on both targets. The BE DoT will usually not break the Fan the Flames fear effect, but it will always break a daze, and frequently break a root.

    This is one of the very few cases where you want your BE duration to be no more than 15 seconds.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toreldor View Post
    The BE DoT will usually not break the Fan the Flames fear effect, ...
    If you use fear from eagle, all dots from BE will be removed. So there is nothing what can break fear (unless there are others dots from another players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Toreldor View Post
    ... but it will always break a daze,
    Of course. Unless you have yellow etten set (50% chance for breaking daze)

    Quote Originally Posted by Toreldor View Post
    ... and frequently break a root.
    frequently = some roots have chance to break them (like CE - 25% chance). That is, why it is not allways
    Last edited by Estelrandir; Jul 19 2013 at 07:43 AM.
    Ich bin kein Deutscher, sorry für Grammatik
    Eglish isn't my first language, sorry for mistakes

  15. #15
    Interesting write up. There's very little I can disagree with, which if anything I suppose highlights how clear the choices are.

    That said, I may finally have to change my mind on the Fire skills crit modifier legacy. I've always gone for reliable raw damage over crits, but the numbers suggest more and more clearly that it is worth taking. -- As an aside I always preferred LORD damage. It might be on a longer cooldown, but is the highest damage single target skill we have, and you tend to fire it off as soon as it comes up. Again, personal preference (and I have to admit it isn't probably not the most efficient choice).

    If you are using red Hytbold armour, Staff strike becomes even more worthwhile, since you can staff strike and heal from the same flank.

    With book legacies the only issue is the resistance legacies, and the interaction with Finesse. Plenty of people have tried to do the numbers on their interactions, and the most common outcome is that if you are in the 14-15%+ range in finesse (6K+), you rarely miss the legacies. The exception is a raid book where the debuffing legacy is worth it, even if it is overkill, because success and failure might hinge on landing a debuff.

    A point on SOP duration is that traditional wisdom seems to be put it on a grouping/raid book, whereas for me it is top of the list on any book. As mentioned it could be a clicky, but from a PvE perspective there are now few enough majors worth having, that there is always room for it. -- A perspective for me was watching the firestorm of moans about Dunland without understanding why, until I remembered that stun immunity is a normal part of the rotation for me.

    On the title -- the possible obsolescence worries me as part of waiting to see what is planned for Loremasters

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kriskrosed View Post
    At least until Helm's Deep launches. If you're reading this and Helm's Deep has already launched, stop. It's gibberish.
    Nice work on this.

    My question is, what is happening in Helm's Deep? I have not heard anything so have no clue as to why this will be gibberish after that.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b0000000d4416/signature.png]Rhayvan[/charsig]

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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonPard View Post
    Nice work on this.

    My question is, what is happening in Helm's Deep? I have not heard anything so have no clue as to why this will be gibberish after that.

    With apologies to the OP if I'm jumping in/missing the point -- There are the class revamps on the way, mainly introducing trait trees. The assumption is they come in with Helm's Deep.

    In that context (especially as they've not detailed anything about what the changes are), all bets are off about how things will work in Helm's Deep.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonPard View Post
    My question is, what is happening in Helm's Deep? I have not heard anything so have no clue as to why this will be gibberish after that.
    I'll mirror what Carolas said, but add a little. As part of the class revamps, there's also chatter about "pruning out skills" and "making significant changes" to existing skills. Producer's letter here.

    Also, there was this in the Feb. 21, 2013 Twitter Dev Chat:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Q4 Ehil - Are you planning to phase in any new legacy for our LIs contributing to new skills during class-revamp? #LOTRO
    A4 Jared – We will be looking at the existing Legacies as well as adding new legacies where needed, going forward. #LOTRO

    So who knows if we'll even have the same legacies much less see the impact of current ones remain static. Happened before. I actually keep a lowly set of Burglar Tools on Balc just because it still has a Share the Fun Movement Speed legacy on it.
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Jul 20 2013 at 03:11 PM.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  19. #19
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    Excellent write-up. Easy to understand, even for a casual player like me. +Rep to you, and an extra round of applause as you also paid attention to the effects of spending points on legacies. Or saving those points for other legacies.

    Like Carolas, I have the LotRD legacy slotted, as I use it every encounter. I'm surprised you value Cracked Earth so highly. It never seems to do that much damage. Or am I mistaken?
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  20. #20
    Nice work on the guide, although it's indeed full of personal preference, it'd surely help out some people.

    Cracked Earth is a really good AoE skill and if you add up all the damage it does quite a bit of damage, and although I really like CE, I don't think it's worth the legacy since a lot of encounters require single target dps, in some cases AoE isn't even allowed. I also think it's good to not totally focus on fire damage since a few encounters have fire immune mobs or mobs with very high fire mits (sammath gul first boss, fornost fire 2nd half of the instance).

    Lotrd has a high base damage on it's own, even though it doesn't benefit from the fire damage bonuses, so a +15% boost to that is pretty significant. If you want to stay with AoE damage, I'd rather choose gust of wind (which IS useful for dps, but only for AoE) over cracked earth, since gust of wind does about the same damage as CE non-crit (less for each target, but it affects 6 targets instead of 5), so an increased base for gust of wind would definitely benefit your AoE dps, assuming you actually use that skill. But I rather focus more on single target and burst AoE.
    Last edited by Vulcwen; Jul 21 2013 at 04:43 PM.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Charian View Post
    I'm surprised you value Cracked Earth so highly. It never seems to do that much damage.
    It can do a ton. I think the best way to explain is by showing a practical application. To make one, I ran through three level 85 Sambrog instances solo while using Combat Analysis. Not including boss fights, there were eighteen total encounters all with at least six mobs and some with much more due to all of the adds that wights can spawn. The shortest pull was 1:19 while the longest pull was 3:03 with an average of length of 1:49. I think that’s a fair length of time to show what sustained Lore-master dps can look like.

    Here is a screenshot showing a breakdown of the damage dealt over all eighteen encounters. My average dps for the entire test is a little hard to see, but it was 2,381. That was with a tactical mastery rating of about 34k and a critical rating of about 8.4k, although I do use gear that give the will and crit proc buffs.



    For those unfamiliar with Combat Analysis, it’s a plugin that saves all of the combat events that are generated by you or your pet plus all of the combat events done to you or your pet. The first column is the skill name. The second column is the number of attacks generated by that skill. The third column is the total damage dealt, and the fourth is the average damage dealt per attack. Note that this is per mob hit, not per skill use. In other words, Cracked Earth may hit five targets on one use of the skill but all five targets hit will get counted as a separate attack. For skills with more than one damage source, like Staff-sweep which has one from your staff and one from your sword, each source gets counted as a separate attack as well. For the Staff-sweep entry, you should multiply the average by two to get a better idea of how much damage was done to each mob on its use.

    You’ll notice two entries for Sticky Gourd. The one labeled ‘Sticky Gourd’ is actually the damage dealt by the hotspots the skill lays down. These hotspots always deal the exact same amount of damage; they do not have a range of damage nor do they crit. Ever. The second entry, ‘Improved Sticky Gourd’, is the damage done by the initial, direct damage from the skill. This damage has a range and can crit, just like any other skill.

    Right away, this shows the large portion of aoe dps Improved Sticky Gourd comprises. Combining the two entries, it accounted for 1,871,400 of the 4,669,000 total damage dealt or 40.1%. That’s about double the the second highest damage dealing skill.

    But.

    Look at that second highest damage dealing skill. It’s Cracked Earth. Not only that, but the damage dealt by Cracked Earth is greater than the damage dealt by the direct damage portion of Improved Sticky Gourd. Now, know right away that the data is skewed a little by my gear. I use the Cracked Earth Damage legacy but not the Sticky Gourd Direct Damage legacy. If I swapped legacies, the numbers would be closer, but Cracked Earth would still probably come out ahead.

    Crazy, right? How is that?

    Cooldowns. There were 324 attacks done by Cracked Earth as opposed to 186 attacks done by Improved Sticky Gourd. The far right column shows the average damage was far less, but the sheer number of attacks makes up for it. If you’re vigilant in using Cracked Earth whenever it’s off cooldown, this can happen a lot of the time. Plus, as you know, trait other colors and Sticky Gourd turns into a mediocre, single-target dps skill. Cracked Earth loses some damage but otherwise remains exactly the same. That’s why I wrote that, for PvE, the Cracked Earth Damage legacy is probably more useful than the Sticky Gourd Direct Damage legacy in the long run.

    Now, let’s look at Cracked Earth versus Gust of Wind. As you can see, there is a huge, huge difference between the damage dealt by each, and I’m not just talking about the difference in total damage. Look at the difference in average damage. Cracked Earth dealt an average of 2,776 damage per attack. Gust of Wind dealt an average of only 1,068. Let’s break down why that happened.

    First, traiting four red gives you a +15% bonus to all tactical skills but gives you a further +25% or +35% bonus to your fire skills depending on if you include Flame of Anor as one of your red traits. Second, two out of the three most common incoming damage debuffs a lore-master can apply only help with fire damage. Warding Circle helps both, but Benediction of the Raven, the Raven’s first skill, applies a -10% Fire Mitigation debuff which only helps Cracked Earth. Sticky Tar, same thing, -10% Fire Mitigation.

    There are also gear bonuses for fire damage skills, which for the record, I did not use in this test. I wore some defensive gear in the head and shoulder slots and four pieces of the Hytbold Animal-friend gear in the rest. Needed to be able to survive to get some data. If I had worn gear with a fire damage buff, the gap would've been wider.

    Fire damage buffs and fire mitigation debuffs are not the whole story, however.

    Here are screen captures showing a breakdown of the damage applied solely by each skill. On the left is Cracked Earth; on the right is Gust of Wind. You’ll want to pay special attention to the statistics under the Criticals header.



    Cracked Earth critted on 54.0% of its attacks and devastated on 8.1%. That’s a crit or devastate on 62.1% (!!!) of its attacks which all get an extra 25% bonus to damage from the Fire Skills Critical Multiplier legacy if you choose to slot it. Gust of Wind critted on 16.9% of its attacks and devastated on 8.1%. That’s a crit or devastate on 25.0% of its attacks that, being frost damage type, do not receive a critical multiplier bonus. 25.0% is still good, but that's not even in the same league as 62.1%. That's Improved Staff-sweep's buff at work which, during this test, I didn’t even use for Cracked Earth every time. Whenever Improved Sticky Gourd (62.4% crit rate) and Ents Go To War (69.2% crit rate) were off cooldown, I used the buff for them instead. Yet even still, crits on 62.1% of Cracked Earth's attacks.

    And that's the story right there. Debuffs, crits, and the Fire Skills Critical Multiplier legacy are why Cracked Earth's legacy can be a lot more useful than Gust of Wind's. When talking about their range of usefulness, Cracked Earth and Gust of Wind do have similar floors. However, given all the bonuses for fire skills available to a Lore-master, the ceiling for Cracked Earth towers over Gust of Wind's. That's why I advocated for choosing Cracked Earth's legacy and avoiding Gust of Wind's.

    Since we're touching on crits, here are the numbers for all five fire skills over the eighteen trash pulls:

    Code:
    Skill                    Attacks    Crits    Devs    Crit %
    Cracked Earth                324      174      26      61.7
    Improved Sticky Gourd        186      105      11      62.4
    Improved Burning Embers      212       64       7      33.5
    Ents Go To War                39       26       1      69.2
    Wizard’s Fire                155       41       0      26.5
    
    Total                        916      410      45      49.7
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Jul 21 2013 at 08:55 PM.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

 

 

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