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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Widoch View Post
    What does that even mean? I'm confused.
    I tried to use your language (Haradrim) but nope seems didn't pass the info right

    I meant Templar Knights were not just a religious order, they were keepers of ancient knowledge from Egypt and Greece passed down from Master through Apprentice to this day, so Yes their Knight Standards of Western Medieval times are probably what Tolkien meant for Gondor Knights along with Knights of the roundtable and the arthurian myth.

  2. #252
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    Fight in Pellenor Fields by Ragnard G.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    I tried to use your language (Haradrim) but nope seems didn't pass the info right

    I meant Templar Knights were not just a religious order, they were keepers of ancient knowledge from Egypt and Greece passed down from Master through Apprentice to this day, so Yes their Knight Standards of Western Medieval times are probably what Tolkien meant for Gondor Knights along with Knights of the roundtable and the arthurian myth.
    Could you provide some sources for these ideas you have about the Knights Templar (I really wish you would stop calling them Templar Knights as that is not their title and the grammar is horrendous)? You claim that they were not only a religious order but were keepers of ancient knowledge which in turn ties them to Tolkien and influenced his creation of the nation of Gondor in his works.

    I've done quite a bit of study over the years on various military orders, not only of the Knights Templar but the Fraternitas Hospitalaria (Knights Hospitaller), Deutschherrenorden(Teutonic Knights), The Knights of the Tauand multiple other lesser known orders. It is not my purpose to come out and assign fault to your ideas about the Knights Templar, but to open the idea that claiming association of Gondor to the Knights Templar based on legends and myth would be the equivalent to saying that Harry Potter as a character is influenced by the legends of Merlin the Magician. Yes, it's very possible that some influences might come from your source, but your exact reasoning could be applied to over 15 of the common orders of the day and in some cases much more readily than it could be applied, in some small amount, to the Knights Templar.

    The Knights Templar were indeed mysterious and secretive in their own day. Sure, there are legends that associate them somewhat to such items as the Ark of the Covenant or to the Holy Grail but these are in no way unique to the Knights Templar. Every order had their legends. The Fraternitas Hospitalaria were tied in legend to the cross of Christ, the healing staff of Moses and the hair of Mary mother of Christ. The Teutonic Knights claimed literacy and knowledge of all ancient forms of healing above all other orders. So, why could Gondor be based on that?

    The Knights Templar cherished military training and the acquisition of wealth far beyond any relics or piety. They could claim piety until they were blue in the face, but the fact that they became Europe's bankers, body guards for hire, and surety of goods providers shows their real focus. A little mythos and legend was good for business. France didn't round them up and persecute them because of their ancient knowledge or institutions of learning. They rounded them up because they were rich, controlled the economy and held several kinds in basic servitude due to the debts of the nations surrounding them.

    The Knights Templar started as a military order with the goal of protecting pilgrims and their goods and graduated on to the biggest group of fundraisers Europe had ever seen. They finished up by becoming loan sharks and for hire safety depositors.

    Let's take a look at the Fraternitas Hospitalaria. This order was founded originally with the purpose of founding houses of healing to treat and protect pilgrims in the Holy Land. If you're going to take one small part of an order and claim it as Tolkien's insparation for Gondor's cultural structures why not run with that one as a military order of healing monks?

    Better yet, go with the Teutonic Knights who build houses of healing that were not just hospitals but castles at the same time! Gondor liked building castles, towers and fortresses. The Teutonic Knights even went as far as to create their own nation in order to achieve that goal. If anything that seems to tie in well enough.

    How about The Knights of the Tau, one of the earliest orders founded with the goal of protecting byways and bridges from brigands. Gondor protected a river crossing at Osgilliath, maybe we should say that was the inspiration?

    If you're more interested in finding pictures that visually connect to your imagination rather than historical evidence, the four orders I mention here all seem to fit the basic 1000s - 1400s model you favor.




    My point is this. You cannot take one small aspect of an order that applied to multiple orders and made absolute statements about them without providing more reasoning than just, "I say so." I have no doubt that some aspects of the various military orders of the 1st - 5th centuries influenced a fantasy genre that obviously pulled heavily from the time period. The orders were a result of the culture, not the other way around. To imply some definitive knowledge that Gondor was influenced mainly by one order alone is (no offense) ignorant of the other established orders of the time.

    Post your pictures if you must, theorize about their influence on Tolkien's creative process, look for connections that may or may not be anything more than coincidence; this is of course, all in good fun and part of what makes these debates interesting. Let it be that exactly though; a debate! Please stop making these absolute and definitive statements that simply cannot be absolutely and definitively established. Don't caption things with a definitive tone if you cannot prove definitively it's validity.

    Instead of captioning thing with, "Knight Templar, inspiration for Gondorian Knights" try a caption that says, "Knight Templar, possible inspiration in part of Gondorian Knights." The first is invalid as it can be easily questioned and shown inaccurate. The second is a valid caption and puts forth a theory that can be discussed and debated. It allows for a two way conversation rather than you just putting something out there, stamping it as dogma and rejecting any other disagreeing constructs.

    You would not receive so much negative feedback if you took that approach.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    I tried to use your language (Haradrim) but nope seems didn't pass the info right

    I meant Templar Knights were not just a religious order, they were keepers of ancient knowledge from Egypt and Greece passed down from Master through Apprentice to this day, so Yes their Knight Standards of Western Medieval times are probably what Tolkien meant for Gondor Knights along with Knights of the roundtable and the arthurian myth.
    You can't casually separate the Knights Templar from being a religious order because that was fundamental to their character, nor should you neglect the fact that chivalry was very much of its time and so included a strong religious element. (Just as can be seen in Arthurian myth). So you can't say it's 'probably' anything. I've never got that 'Arthurian' vibe when reading LOTR - as king, Aragorn reminds me of the legends that grew up around Charlemagne, rather than Arthur.

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Widoch View Post
    Could you provide some sources for these ideas you have about the Knights Templar (I really wish you would stop calling them Templar Knights as that is not their title and the grammar is horrendous)? You claim that they were not only a religious order but were keepers of ancient knowledge which in turn ties them to Tolkien and influenced his creation of the nation of Gondor in his works.

    I've done quite a bit of study over the years on various military orders, not only of the Knights Templar but the Fraternitas Hospitalaria (Knights Hospitaller), Deutschherrenorden(Teutonic Knights), The Knights of the Tauand multiple other lesser known orders. It is not my purpose to come out and assign fault to your ideas about the Knights Templar, but to open the idea that claiming association of Gondor to the Knights Templar based on legends and myth would be the equivalent to saying that Harry Potter as a character is influenced by the legends of Merlin the Magician. Yes, it's very possible that some influences might come from your source, but your exact reasoning could be applied to over 15 of the common orders of the day and in some cases much more readily than it could be applied, in some small amount, to the Knights Templar.

    The Knights Templar were indeed mysterious and secretive in their own day. Sure, there are legends that associate them somewhat to such items as the Ark of the Covenant or to the Holy Grail but these are in no way unique to the Knights Templar. Every order had their legends. The Fraternitas Hospitalaria were tied in legend to the cross of Christ, the healing staff of Moses and the hair of Mary mother of Christ. The Teutonic Knights claimed literacy and knowledge of all ancient forms of healing above all other orders. So, why could Gondor be based on that?

    The Knights Templar cherished military training and the acquisition of wealth far beyond any relics or piety. They could claim piety until they were blue in the face, but the fact that they became Europe's bankers, body guards for hire, and surety of goods providers shows their real focus. A little mythos and legend was good for business. France didn't round them up and persecute them because of their ancient knowledge or institutions of learning. They rounded them up because they were rich, controlled the economy and held several kinds in basic servitude due to the debts of the nations surrounding them.

    The Knights Templar started as a military order with the goal of protecting pilgrims and their goods and graduated on to the biggest group of fundraisers Europe had ever seen. They finished up by becoming loan sharks and for hire safety depositors.

    Let's take a look at the Fraternitas Hospitalaria. This order was founded originally with the purpose of founding houses of healing to treat and protect pilgrims in the Holy Land. If you're going to take one small part of an order and claim it as Tolkien's insparation for Gondor's cultural structures why not run with that one as a military order of healing monks?

    Better yet, go with the Teutonic Knights who build houses of healing that were not just hospitals but castles at the same time! Gondor liked building castles, towers and fortresses. The Teutonic Knights even went as far as to create their own nation in order to achieve that goal. If anything that seems to tie in well enough.

    How about The Knights of the Tau, one of the earliest orders founded with the goal of protecting byways and bridges from brigands. Gondor protected a river crossing at Osgilliath, maybe we should say that was the inspiration?

    If you're more interested in finding pictures that visually connect to your imagination rather than historical evidence, the four orders I mention here all seem to fit the basic 1000s - 1400s model you favor.




    My point is this. You cannot take one small aspect of an order that applied to multiple orders and made absolute statements about them without providing more reasoning than just, "I say so." I have no doubt that some aspects of the various military orders of the 1st - 5th centuries influenced a fantasy genre that obviously pulled heavily from the time period. The orders were a result of the culture, not the other way around. To imply some definitive knowledge that Gondor was influenced mainly by one order alone is (no offense) ignorant of the other established orders of the time.

    Post your pictures if you must, theorize about their influence on Tolkien's creative process, look for connections that may or may not be anything more than coincidence; this is of course, all in good fun and part of what makes these debates interesting. Let it be that exactly though; a debate! Please stop making these absolute and definitive statements that simply cannot be absolutely and definitively established. Don't caption things with a definitive tone if you cannot prove definitively it's validity. .

    Instead of captioning thing with, "Knight Templar, inspiration for Gondorian Knights" try a caption that says, "Knight Templar, possible inspiration in part of Gondorian Knights." The first is invalid as it can be easily questioned and shown inaccurate. The second is a valid caption and puts forth a theory that can be discussed and debated. It allows for a two way conversation rather than you just putting something out there, stamping it as dogma and rejecting any other disagreeing constructs.

    You would not receive so much negative feedback if you took that approach.

    To be fair to Al: this to me is the same kind of absolute and definitive statement that cannot be absolutely and definitively established. Not to mention that you appear to be painting a huge group of people with one brush stroke. If you have absolute and definitive evidence of what the Templar’s “cherished” and to what degree, (in relationship to another “cherished”) then by all means, demonstrate it to us. But please do not state it in a definitive tone if you cannot definitively prove its validity.

    I only point this out to you, because you appear (so far) to be one of the few (maybe a handful or less) posters in this thread who seem to be not attacking Al just to be attacking, (obvious opinion on my part) and I feel that it would be lost on the other non-handful's. The practice of making absolute and definitive assertions without proof seems to run rampant on this forum. Otherwise, I thought most of your post was well done and reasonable.
    Last edited by RKL; Jan 14 2014 at 05:19 PM.

  6. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    You can't casually separate the Knights Templar from being a religious order because that was fundamental to their character, nor should you neglect the fact that chivalry was very much of its time and so included a strong religious element. (Just as can be seen in Arthurian myth). So you can't say it's 'probably' anything. I've never got that 'Arthurian' vibe when reading LOTR - as king, Aragorn reminds me of the legends that grew up around Charlemagne, rather than Arthur.
    Completely agree. You cannot separate the Knight's Templar from its religious aspects. Would be like trying to separate a monk/nun from his/her religious devotion. They had other aspects sure, particularly banking, but at their roots they are in essence heavily armoured monks. And Gondor had no group[ like the Knight's Templar. They believed in Eru yes, and the Valar, but that had no organized religious group like a church, temple or whatever. Númenor did yes since it had Meneltarma, The Pillar of Heaven, dedicated to Eru. But there is no real evidence that Gondor had something like this. And without an organized religion it is not really possible to have a group such as the Knight's Templar. I will add there is no evidence of such a group existing within Númenor either. If you are looking for sources, or just a good book to read on the historical order, I would very highly recommend Helen Nicholson's The Knight's Tmplar: A New History. Or her A Brief History of the Knight's Templar. The second is a bit easier to find, link to Amazon provided, but both are good.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKL View Post
    To be fair to Al: this to me is the same kind of absolute and definitive statement that cannot be absolutely and definitively established. Not to mention that you appear to be painting a huge group of people with one brush stroke. If you have absolute and definitive evidence of what the Templar’s “cherished” and to what degree, (in relationship to another “cherished”) then by all means, demonstrate it to us. But please do not state it in a definitive tone if you cannot definitively prove its validity.

    I only point this out to you, because you appear (so far) to be one of the few (maybe a handful or less) posters in this thread who seem to be not attacking Al just to be attacking, (obvious opinion on my part) and I feel that it would be lost on the other non-handful's. The practice of making absolute and definitive assertions without proof seems to run rampant on this forum. Otherwise, I thought most of your post was well done and reasonable.
    You make a fair point. I suppose I could phrase it better. If I put it this way, would it be more appropriate?


    It's apparent to a large number of historians, based on the historical record, that the Knights Templar cherished military training and the acquisition of wealth far beyond any relics or piety. They could claim piety until they were blue in the face, but the fact that they became Europe's bankers, body guards for hire, and surety of goods providers shows their real focus changed and adjusted for a large portion of their leadership over time. A little mythos and legend was good for business. France didn't round them up and persecute them because of their ancient knowledge or institutions of learning. They rounded them up because they were rich, controlled the economy and held several kinds in basic servitude due to the debts of the nations surrounding them.

    I feel those changes make my point a little better. The difference though in this approach from that of Al, is that I made a statement, "the Knights Templar cherished military training and the acquisition of wealth far beyond any relics or piety." and supported it with the historical fact that, "they became Europe's bankers, body guards for hire, and surety of goods providers." It is a historical record that this did become the focus of a majority of their resources during the later half of the order's lifespan.

    You are correct in saying that there is no way to prove 100% the mindset of the order moved in this direction.

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Widoch View Post
    You make a fair point. I suppose I could phrase it better. If I put it this way, would it be more appropriate?


    It's apparent to a large number of historians, based on the historical record, that the Knights Templar cherished military training and the acquisition of wealth far beyond any relics or piety. They could claim piety until they were blue in the face, but the fact that they became Europe's bankers, body guards for hire, and surety of goods providers shows their real focus changed and adjusted for a large portion of their leadership over time. A little mythos and legend was good for business. France didn't round them up and persecute them because of their ancient knowledge or institutions of learning. They rounded them up because they were rich, controlled the economy and held several kinds in basic servitude due to the debts of the nations surrounding them.

    I feel those changes make my point a little better. The difference though in this approach from that of Al, is that I made a statement, "the Knights Templar cherished military training and the acquisition of wealth far beyond any relics or piety." and supported it with the historical fact that, "they became Europe's bankers, body guards for hire, and surety of goods providers." It is a historical record that this did become the focus of a majority of their resources during the later half of the order's lifespan.

    You are correct in saying that there is no way to prove 100% the mindset of the order moved in this direction.
    That is a lot better (to me). It still leaves you in the position of proving your statements though. (providing the historical evidence, etc.) Since you have asked Al to provide evidence, you are (ethically) forced into the position of providing evidence as well. Al has not asked for people to provide evidence in this thread as far as I remember, so I do not hold him to the same level of (proving) as someone who does. My impression is that Al is just giving his opinion on things. Even when he says that something is a fact, it only seems to be when he is being trolled and/or makes an emotional response. Of course that is pure speculation on my part. (gut feeling – and possibly very wrong) I will give him the benefit of the doubt until reasonably proven incorrect. I would question him first (if I were you) to make sure that he means that only his opinion can be the right one. If he does indeed mean ‘that’ (absolute statements) when is non-emotional, then he deserves what he gets. (up to a point) Please take into account; his English is a second (or more) language to him. (apparently) Anyway, thanks for the response, I had a feeling you were an up-front person and your reply has done nothing to diminish that feeling.

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Widoch View Post
    Could you provide some sources for these ideas you have about the Knights Templar (I really wish you would stop calling them Templar Knights as that is not their title and the grammar is horrendous)? You claim that they were not only a religious order but were keepers of ancient knowledge which in turn ties them to Tolkien and influenced his creation of the nation of Gondor in his works.

    I've done quite a bit of study over the years on various military orders, not only of the Knights Templar but the Fraternitas Hospitalaria (Knights Hospitaller), Deutschherrenorden(Teutonic Knights), The Knights of the Tauand multiple other lesser known orders. It is not my purpose to come out and assign fault to your ideas about the Knights Templar, but to open the idea that claiming association of Gondor to the Knights Templar based on legends and myth would be the equivalent to saying that Harry Potter as a character is influenced by the legends of Merlin the Magician. Yes, it's very possible that some influences might come from your source, but your exact reasoning could be applied to over 15 of the common orders of the day and in some cases much more readily than it could be applied, in some small amount, to the Knights Templar.

    The Knights Templar were indeed mysterious and secretive in their own day. Sure, there are legends that associate them somewhat to such items as the Ark of the Covenant or to the Holy Grail but these are in no way unique to the Knights Templar. Every order had their legends. The Fraternitas Hospitalaria were tied in legend to the cross of Christ, the healing staff of Moses and the hair of Mary mother of Christ. The Teutonic Knights claimed literacy and knowledge of all ancient forms of healing above all other orders. So, why could Gondor be based on that?

    The Knights Templar cherished military training and the acquisition of wealth far beyond any relics or piety. They could claim piety until they were blue in the face, but the fact that they became Europe's bankers, body guards for hire, and surety of goods providers shows their real focus. A little mythos and legend was good for business. France didn't round them up and persecute them because of their ancient knowledge or institutions of learning. They rounded them up because they were rich, controlled the economy and held several kinds in basic servitude due to the debts of the nations surrounding them.

    The Knights Templar started as a military order with the goal of protecting pilgrims and their goods and graduated on to the biggest group of fundraisers Europe had ever seen. They finished up by becoming loan sharks and for hire safety depositors.

    Let's take a look at the Fraternitas Hospitalaria. This order was founded originally with the purpose of founding houses of healing to treat and protect pilgrims in the Holy Land. If you're going to take one small part of an order and claim it as Tolkien's insparation for Gondor's cultural structures why not run with that one as a military order of healing monks?

    Better yet, go with the Teutonic Knights who build houses of healing that were not just hospitals but castles at the same time! Gondor liked building castles, towers and fortresses. The Teutonic Knights even went as far as to create their own nation in order to achieve that goal. If anything that seems to tie in well enough.

    How about The Knights of the Tau, one of the earliest orders founded with the goal of protecting byways and bridges from brigands. Gondor protected a river crossing at Osgilliath, maybe we should say that was the inspiration?

    If you're more interested in finding pictures that visually connect to your imagination rather than historical evidence, the four orders I mention here all seem to fit the basic 1000s - 1400s model you favor.




    My point is this. You cannot take one small aspect of an order that applied to multiple orders and made absolute statements about them without providing more reasoning than just, "I say so." I have no doubt that some aspects of the various military orders of the 1st - 5th centuries influenced a fantasy genre that obviously pulled heavily from the time period. The orders were a result of the culture, not the other way around. To imply some definitive knowledge that Gondor was influenced mainly by one order alone is (no offense) ignorant of the other established orders of the time.

    Post your pictures if you must, theorize about their influence on Tolkien's creative process, look for connections that may or may not be anything more than coincidence; this is of course, all in good fun and part of what makes these debates interesting. Let it be that exactly though; a debate! Please stop making these absolute and definitive statements that simply cannot be absolutely and definitively established. Don't caption things with a definitive tone if you cannot prove definitively it's validity.

    Instead of captioning thing with, "Knight Templar, inspiration for Gondorian Knights" try a caption that says, "Knight Templar, possible inspiration in part of Gondorian Knights." The first is invalid as it can be easily questioned and shown inaccurate. The second is a valid caption and puts forth a theory that can be discussed and debated. It allows for a two way conversation rather than you just putting something out there, stamping it as dogma and rejecting any other disagreeing constructs.

    You would not receive so much negative feedback if you took that approach.

    Thanks and Ill explain my reasoning


    Knight Templar or Order of the Temple were not just a religious order as your reasearch should point out, they were in many senses similar to the Teutonic Knights even in their classic Cross symbol, but more importantly was their knowledge of the occult and healing arts, also were expelled from the Church because they thought were Infidels.

    The Knights of the temple were known for their tactics and refined combat, chivalry and secrets, they were Bankers, Protectors of the Holy Land, and object of Myth of the time but its well-sustained because at the time of the crusades all the wisdom of Arabian countries passed down to them via the Temple of Salomon.

    Why is inspiration for Gondor Knights?

    Well Tolkien used very occult symbology in his works like "Silver and Gold", the "Sun and the Moon" and Gondor at the third age is last keep of numenorian knowledge, in many ways its similar to Jerusalem and the Temple of Salomon, so its likely to assume Knights serving Gondor would be bound to protect Middle Earth as a whole not just Gondor, Hence Boromir words paraphrased by me: "Gondor is the bulwark of the west protecting Middle-Earth"

    So all Gondor knights are similar to Knight Templar, possibly yes.

    Thats my reasoning.


    One of many sources:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_Templars
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Molay



    Teutons and Templar are one of the same.
    Last edited by Al.; Jan 14 2014 at 10:17 PM.

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Thanks and Ill explain my reasoning


    Knight Templar or Order of the Temple were not just a religious order as your reasearch should point out, they were in many senses similar to the Teutonic Knights even in their classic Cross symbol, but more importantly was their knowledge of the occult and healing arts, also were expelled from the Church because they thought were Infidels.

    The Knights of the temple were known for their tactics and refined combat, chivalry and secrets, they were Bankers, Protectors of the Holy Land, and object of Myth of the time but its well-sustained because at the time of the crusades all the wisdom of Arabian countries passed down to them via the Temple of Salomon.

    Why is inspiration for Gondor Knights?

    Well Tolkien used very occult symbology in his works like "Silver and Gold", the "Sun and the Moon" and Gondor at the third age is last keep of numenorian knowledge, in many ways its similar to Jerusalem and the Temple of Salomon, so its likely to assume Knights serving Gondor would be bound to protect Middle Earth as a whole not just Gondor, Hence Boromir words paraphrased by me: "Gondor is the bulwark of the west protecting Middle-Earth"

    So all Gondor knights are similar to Knight Templar, possibly yes.

    Thats my reasoning.


    One of many sources:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_Templars
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Molay


    Works for me. You have a theory with a reason behind it, that's all I need. Seems fair.

    The only question I had is your claim that the Knights Templar and the Teutonic Knights being one and the same. Knights Templar had a French history with most actions and power taking place in southern and south eastern Europe as well as the near mid-east. The Teutonic Knights operated and functioned in Prussia, Hungary, Poland and the like with a much lesser influence in the near mid-east. There were two fairly different groups and even competed a little bit, historically speaking. Legend has it the Teutons accepted a large number of the Knights Templar after their order collapsed, but I haven't found any solid historical evidence to support that bit as a fact. But the differences between the two are quite evident from most manuscripts. Even the Wikipedia articles seem to hold that. (Like we can all trust Wikipedia, haha).
    Last edited by Widoch; Jan 14 2014 at 10:25 PM.

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Why is inspiration for Gondor Knights?
    Having read what you said, it's only a vague semblance at best because what knights we see described appear to be a far more straightforward case of men who fight as a duty to their lord, not because they're part of any mystical order.

  12. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Thanks and Ill explain my reasoning
    Your summary of the Knights Templar seems reasonable enough, its the comparisons you make to the so called knights of Gondor that are the problem.
    First of all, who are you referring to here, is it the swan knights of Dol Amroth perhaps?
    Gondor had a small number of cavalry who could be referred to as knights. There are several mentions of knights in the books, including King Eärnur who rode to Minas Morgul with a small company of knights to answer the challenge of the Lord of the Nazgûl.
    I think it would be helpful to let us know who you're talking about before we decide if we believe you know what you're talking about.

    Regardless, you state that Tolkien used occult symbology, certainly the ancient Númenorians, under the influence of Sauron, were heavily into the darker side of religion, but give us some examples of how third age Gondorians were doing likewise.

    A large part of the problem with your credibility is you've plucked first century Romans, middle-age Normans, Anglo-Saxons, ancient Egyptians and many others and tried to lump them all into the same culture during the same era.
    I know Tolkien borrowed from many different sources to create his fantasy world, but not in the way your trying to do. The problem as others have said is that your "theories" have more to do with how you'd like the world of Middle-earth to look than the way Tolkien intended it to look.

  13. #263
    I think it might be more of trying to find so many associations as possible.
    Just my impression

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    Knight Templar, possible inspiration for Citadel and Fort Guards

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    Osgiliath by Alan Lee

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    Gandalf and Pippin with the Steward of Gondor by Alan Lee

  17. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Knight Templar, possible inspiration for Citadel and Fort Guards
    "Bloke in mail, possible inspiration for some other bloke in mail"

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    The historical inaccuracies of this thread are utterly painful to read...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post

    Knight Templar, possible inspiration for Citadel and Fort Guards
    I have no problem at all with this. Indeed, why could not the Knights Templar, their culture, iconic imagery and choice of arms be a possible inspiration for the guards in Minas Tirith? It's not that much of a reach to think that JRT was influenced such ideas. By using the word "possible" Al has left the door open to other ideas and conclusions. This is exactly what forums are for. He says "possible" and if you don't think it's "possible" reasonably explain why.

    Do I think it's the only inspiration? No, I don't. Do I think it influenced JRT? Of course, it must have to some degree just as the Knights Templar and other similar orders have inspired the look and appearance of nearly every other fantasy work in existence. How much of an influence is up to debate.

  20. #270
    I was wandering about Archet the other day and decided to actually look at the architecture of the Arnorian ruins rather than run past them like I usually do. Going off of other posters saying that Gondor could be similar to the eastern half of the Roman Empire and Arnor similar to the western half of the Roman Empire, I wonder if Turbine had the same idea. The Arnorian ruins were full of rounded arches with keystones, thick Doric columns sitting atop pedestals arranged in arcades, relatively simple ornamentation, sculpted reliefs, etc. It could also be considered a little more Romanesque than strictly classical since the stone is so blocky and thick, and I haven't seen much in the way of pediments or entablatures.

    -lotro-wiki

    - cstm.mymiddleearth.com

    Taking the classical/Romanesque idea further, it almost looks to me like Turbine depicted a little advance in Arnor's architecture, because looking at the buildings of Annuminas, which are distinct from the ruins in Bree-land, they look almost more Gothic, which could actually make sense since Gothic architecture came after Romanesque and was constructed on top of the old buildings. The tall spires, the asymmetrical design, the height of the buildings, and tall thin columns somewhat integrated into the walls - the palace in Annuminas rather reminds me of a Gothic cathredral in its architectural plan. Although, admittedly the problem with that theory is the distinct lack of pointed arches, flying buttresses, and rose windows, which I think probably means Turbine was inspired by certain styles and movements but didn't just copy and paste every architectural element of them into LOTRO.

    -massively.joystiq.com

    - mightyvikinghamster.wordpress. com

    - ingamers.com

    Of course, all of this is just my speculation. Curious what anyone else thinks.

  21. #271
    At last, someone with intentions other than trolling on this thread.
    Last edited by Calmor3112; Apr 23 2014 at 07:23 PM.

  22. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Calmor3112 View Post
    At last someone with intentions other than trolling on this thread.
    I love Gondor. I don't know why. Something about it (well, all the Numenorean kingdoms really) just appeals to me, more so than Rohan, so I'd love to discuss it and just see things related to it - artwork, lore, whatever.

  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dol_Amroth_Knight View Post

    Of course, all of this is just my speculation. Curious what anyone else thinks.
    The impression I always got from the in game architecture was that it's based heavily on the materials they had to work with. In Breeland, the natural landscape has a lot of the sandy colored stone and is a more rolling landscape in general. Therefore, I find the architecture to be a bit more rolling, and natural in appearance.

    Annúminas I think in the history of the text, is a much older city than that of Fornost and the ruins we see in Breeland. So, along with matching the rugged landscape around Evendim more, I think Annúminas must copy a bit the original architectural designs of Númenor. Annúminas was the first city founded by the refugees who escaped the downfall of the island. Other cities, like Fornost which copies more of the architecture found in Breeland were founded nearly 1000 years later, so it would appear that in the game at least, you're thinking about it backwards. The Roman looking construction I think is a sign of a later and diminished civilization as opposed to the more complex construction in Annúminas by the earlier refugees.

  24. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Widoch View Post
    The impression I always got from the in game architecture was that it's based heavily on the materials they had to work with. In Breeland, the natural landscape has a lot of the sandy colored stone and is a more rolling landscape in general. Therefore, I find the architecture to be a bit more rolling, and natural in appearance.

    Annúminas I think in the history of the text, is a much older city than that of Fornost and the ruins we see in Breeland. So, along with matching the rugged landscape around Evendim more, I think Annúminas must copy a bit the original architectural designs of Númenor. Annúminas was the first city founded by the refugees who escaped the downfall of the island. Other cities, like Fornost which copies more of the architecture found in Breeland were founded nearly 1000 years later, so it would appear that in the game at least, you're thinking about it backwards. The Roman looking construction I think is a sign of a later and diminished civilization as opposed to the more complex construction in Annúminas by the earlier refugees.
    Hmm, I must have only been thinking about the architectural styles than the historical context of LOTR.

    What you say makes sense because Tolkien often wrote of the decline or entropy of civilizations - the grand and glorious civilizations age and decay into shadows of their former selves, illustrated by his comments comparing Gondor to a noble but decaying Byzantium. Thus it's logical for Annuminas to look more sophisticated and powerful than the newer settlements. If what you say is true though, I find it surprising Turbine would pick Roman architecture for Bree-land and Fornost since in real history classical architecture and all things classical were respected and regarded for their advancement and civilization, whereas Gothic architecture was considered to be ugly and barbaric (by the Renaissance, of course).

    What about the actual Gondorian ruins we see in Rohan? I'm not really sure what to think about them. Does anyone feel like they fit Gondor or not?

  25. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dol_Amroth_Knight View Post
    Hmm, I must have only been thinking about the architectural styles than the historical context of LOTR.

    What you say makes sense because Tolkien often wrote of the decline or entropy of civilizations - the grand and glorious civilizations age and decay into shadows of their former selves, illustrated by his comments comparing Gondor to a noble but decaying Byzantium. Thus it's logical for Annuminas to look more sophisticated and powerful than the newer settlements. If what you say is true though, I find it surprising Turbine would pick Roman architecture for Bree-land and Fornost since in real history classical architecture and all things classical were respected and regarded for their advancement and civilization, whereas Gothic architecture was considered to be ugly and barbaric (by the Renaissance, of course).

    What about the actual Gondorian ruins we see in Rohan? I'm not really sure what to think about them. Does anyone feel like they fit Gondor or not?
    As far as Gondorian ruins, I'm not sure what to think about those. They had some architectural skills in the past that it would seem they've lost because they built Orthanc, but I don't think they have the skills to do that any more. Do the ruins match the landscape and the stone we see laying around?


    It could just be we're looking into it way too much and it's simply the result of the art team sitting around looking at stuff and saying, "Oh, that looks cool! Let's use it!"

 

 
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