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  1. #1

    Arwen and Aragorn=Cousins?

    If Arwen's dad and Aragorn's ancestor were brothers (Elrond and Elros), aren't they very distant cousins?

  2. #2
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    Yes.......

    If you consider that Elrond and Elros were born about 6,500 years before Aragorn and about 3,800 years before Arwen, then the idea of "cousin" is a bit ludicrous.

    If that is the way we think of it then a very large percentage of the people alive today are cousins.
    Last edited by Boraxxe; Oct 20 2013 at 02:12 AM.
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    Exclamation

    Considering that all humans originated from a common ancestor, we are all cousins.
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    Last edited by YamydeAragon; Oct 20 2013 at 12:02 PM.
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  4. #4
    They'd be 1st cousins, multiple times removed (once for each generation born between Elros and Aragorn).
    Last edited by fallohide; Oct 20 2013 at 12:25 PM.

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    More than being cousins, some of their close ancestors were cousins as well; Arwen for example was born from double incestual relations in a few short generations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    More than being cousins, some of their close ancestors were cousins as well; Arwen for example was born from double incestual relations in a few short generations.
    Wait, naw wait. He didn't just say what I think he did, did he? Looks like we're gonna have a problem here.

    That's a mighty broad reading of the term incestuous (incestual is not proper, though it is widely used by online dictionaries and so may soon become proper English) generally defined as sexual relations between near blood relations, family members so closely related that it is illegal for them to marry. Arwen was the daughter of Elrond and Celebrian, the daughter of Galadrial and Celeborn. Celebrian's grandfather was Finarfin. Elrond's great-great-grandfather was Fingolfin (Finarfin's brother). Thingol was great-great-grandfather of Elrond and while Celeborn was Thingol's "kinsman" there was certainly not a close enough blood relationship as to be labeled incestuous (or incestual, if you will).
    "Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn." -C. S. Lewis-

  7. #7
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    So if i say that my cousin is not related to me, because i want to marry him, make him less family?
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    Quote Originally Posted by YamydeAragon View Post
    So if i say that my cousin is not related to me, because i want to marry him, make him less family?
    Do you lay awake nights dreaming up ways to be ridiculous? Did I say any such asinine thing?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duathrandir View Post
    ... Arwen was the daughter of Elrond and Celebrian, the daughter of Galadrial and Celeborn. Celebrian's grandfather was Finarfin. Elrond's great-great-grandfather was Fingolfin (Finarfin's brother)...
    Quote Originally Posted by Duathrandir View Post
    ...Did I say any such asinine thing?
    I can read a list of all the times Elrond and Celebrian where related but you said they are not related. That means the same i said. Anyways, why are you so offended? this happened in the past when marrying a sister was aceptable. Is not like you can judge them by today morality.
    Last edited by YamydeAragon; Oct 20 2013 at 09:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by YamydeAragon View Post
    I can read a list of all the times Elrond and Celebrian where related but you said they are not related. That means the same i said. Anyways, why are you so offended? this happened in the past when marrying a sister was aceptable. Is not like you can judge them by today morality.
    I did not say Elrond and Celebrian were not related. Absolutely did not say that (not sure where you pulled that from). I in fact pointed out how they were related in one particular. or at least implied it, when I said that Celebrian's mother, Galadriel, was the daughter of the brother (Finarfin) of Elrond's great-great-grandfather (Fingolfin) and that while Celebrian's father, Celeborn, was kin to Thingol (another of Elrond's great-great-grandfathers). What I did say is that they (had they actually existed) would not, could not, be said to be so nearly related as to make their relationship/marriage incestuous.
    Further, if I am offended at all it is that you interject your bizarre premises into my argument and accuse me of absurdities I never even conceived of, let alone expressed. I was not offended at all at Bird' I was merely responding to his premise with a reasoned argument. It's very sweet, I suppose, that you want to interject yourself into things as some sort of would be peace-keeper, but we're big boys and girls here. If Bird' thinks I'm being a jerk He's very capable of telling me so. He has no problem communicating what he thinks. I seriously doubt he thought I was registering offense at his comments.
    As to judging the fictional characters by any standard at all, I do not so let not your heart be troubled any more on that account. In certain cultures throughout human history incestuous relationships were tolerated (especially for royals). I admit that while I have read history extensively I do not know all, however I know of no "time" when incest was universally accepted, but once again, we are not discussing people who actually lived in any time in human history, but "characters" in a work of epic fantasy. No point in judging them at all, and so I do not.
    By the way, the elves, at least the Eldar, did not embrace incestuous relationship. Maeglin, son of Eol and Aradhel, desired Idril Celebrindal, daughter of Turgon. She was his first cousin and the Eldar wedded not with kin so near. Also, Idril saw it as something twisted in him.
    Last edited by Duathrandir; Oct 21 2013 at 03:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duathrandir View Post
    Wait, naw wait. He didn't just say what I think he did, did he? Looks like we're gonna have a problem here.

    That's a mighty broad reading of the term incestuous (incestual is not proper, though it is widely used by online dictionaries and so may soon become proper English) generally defined as sexual relations between near blood relations, family members so closely related that it is illegal for them to marry. Arwen was the daughter of Elrond and Celebrian, the daughter of Galadrial and Celeborn. Celebrian's grandfather was Finarfin. Elrond's great-great-grandfather was Fingolfin (Finarfin's brother). Thingol was great-great-grandfather of Elrond and while Celeborn was Thingol's "kinsman" there was certainly not a close enough blood relationship as to be labeled incestuous (or incestual, if you will).
    I see. You'll have to forgive me as english is not my native tongue and I though incestual meant a bonding of two blood-related individuals which would count for a few generations. You learn something new every day.
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    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    I see. You'll have to forgive me as english is not my native tongue and I though incestual meant a bonding of two blood-related individuals which would count for a few generations. You learn something new every day.
    Unreal! It is very bizarre that my last response to this thread was removed w/o any reason given. I had said, Bird', that I would not have known that English was not your native tongue had you not disclosed it. You seem to have an excellent grasp of it. Many who do speak it natively have misconceptions of the meanings of some words.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duathrandir View Post
    Unreal! It is very bizarre that my last response to this thread was removed w/o any reason given. I had said, Bird', that I would not have known that English was not your native tongue had you not disclosed it. You seem to have an excellent grasp of it. Many who do speak it natively have misconceptions of the meanings of some words.
    Same here. I would have never guessed English is not Bird's language.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duathrandir View Post
    Unreal! It is very bizarre that my last response to this thread was removed w/o any reason given. I had said, Bird', that I would not have known that English was not your native tongue had you not disclosed it. You seem to have an excellent grasp of it. Many who do speak it natively have misconceptions of the meanings of some words.
    Yeah, doesn't make a lot of sense Duath.
    But I have seen some other strange things happening with other threads today, so, if I were you I would just blow it off....I think the forum is kinda screwed up today. You're post had no reason to be scrapped.
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Boraxxe View Post
    Yeah, doesn't make a lot of sense Duath.
    But I have seen some other strange things happening with other threads today, so, if I were you I would just blow it off....I think the forum is kinda screwed up today. You're post had no reason to be scrapped.
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  16. #16
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    This well made family tree at lotrproject.com will make it very clear that there are dozens and dozens of generations between Aragorn and Elros. So, if you want to be specific, Vardamir, Elros' son whose line, some 50 generations later, lead to Aragorn is Arwen's 1st cousin. Elrond was Vardamir's uncle, which means his daughter is his cousin. Elrond would be Aragorn's great-times-50+ uncle, so Arwen would be like a 50th cousin or something along those lines.

    As old as Arwen was when she married, it would be like you considering yourself a cousin to some long lost relative in Ancient Greece.

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    The usual trump card in these discussions is: They're people of a different race in a fictional world!

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