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  1. #1
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    Do AM Loremasters actually exist anymore?

    Title says it all. Meanwhile back at the ranch... yours truly here is busy re-leveling my old account chars on this new account.

    Now that I have at least one char back to 85, I am seeing more MoNF traited LMs running around me than you can shake a stick at, even in T2 raids. At 75, my old LM almost always ran AM in raids and only in MoNF for solo, skraids, or in 3-6 mans.

    So, since my new LM is fast at work getting back to level cap, I figure I better ask: is always red now the norm for LMs? o.O

  2. #2
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    How to say it. Today there is no really difficult content. So in many cases red lm brings more dps and the instances are quickler done.

    From raid view, it depends. Battle for Erebor t2 or t2 cm surely needs an am lm. The other two, it depends on leader and strategy. Some wants red lm, another one am lm.
    Last edited by Estelrandir; Jun 10 2013 at 10:11 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Also, since the debuffs don't stack, you only ever need at most one AM LM in most raids. Usually additional LMs will be MoNF.

  4. #4
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    Ya, I am aware how stacking works. As mentioned, I have raided on my old LM to lvl75 and no way would I have completed ToO for example in MoNF... current content does seem way easier I admit, but now that I am back to raiding, it just seems weird that even in T2 raids I have not seen a single LM in AM. Kinda makes me a bit sad since dmg dealing from LMs is indeed pretty decent but it was never the reason I ever wanted to roll one to begin with... anyway ty for the replies

  5. #5
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    First you'd usually have to pry Healer and Light of Hope out of my cold, clammy, dead hands......


    but it's like everything else, It depends.....

  6. #6
    I'm Am most of the time... but now in summertime... there aren't many people online in kinship and soloing library, school, stoneheight is much easier traited red.

  7. #7
    We're out there when needed. However, for the most part the current "raids" (/eye twitch) require mainly DPS. I'm happy to see you're aware of the value of the AM trait line in content that requires it. My recommendation is be ready to play that line, I carry both dps and debuff books on my LM.

    I had an 85 LM claiming he was "DPS" only (he lacked the fire damage over time, fire crit, and both WF & BE legacies on his book - in fact he had mostly blue line legacies) that wanted to run ToO and he scoffed at the notion of the AM line and he proclaimed "I know ToO".

    Your asking tells me that you're light years ahead of the typical "rawr pew pew zap zap chop chop" POV towards raiding and you'd be a welcome addition to any group from my perspective regardless of the class/role you were to play.

    /bow

    Chuck
    A vote for Sapience is a vote for progress? A 4th fix to get Draigoch to "dragon up" that still doesn't fix the persistent bug in the raid is not how I define progress.

  8. #8
    I would change the question to be more: What content needs an AM Loremaster these days?

    Most of the loremasters I've met/seen in action are pretty pragmatic, its not about one line, but traiting what gets the job done.

    If I don't use the yellow line much, it isn't about me.....

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Carolas View Post
    I would change the question to be more: What content needs an AM Loremaster these days?

    Most of the loremasters I've met/seen in action are pretty pragmatic, its not about one line, but traiting what gets the job done.

    If I don't use the yellow line much, it isn't about me.....
    Well stated. I trait for the requirements, Am or MoNF.... Never had a need for KoA. The current Skirms (BfE, Flight and Smaug) at least on T1 do not require AM...... Sadly, as AM is a fun line to use.
    Used to show a pic... Seems to be broken links now. Good Ole Turbine.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolas View Post
    I would change the question to be more: What content needs an AM Loremaster these days?

    Most of the loremasters I've met/seen in action are pretty pragmatic, its not about one line, but traiting what gets the job done.

    If I don't use the yellow line much, it isn't about me.....
    Thanks for the reply. Flexibility is part and parcel the life of any Loremaster and of course should be understood. I have leveled one before and obviously know one line is not the way to go at ALL times (nor is it for any class as far as I am concerned). Others have already indicated that it is a content issue at current cap, so that has been made clear; my concern is that even in situations were AM would be needed (I do have one char at cap already to know this) I am not seeing it - so the flexibility you indicate and which I agree with, is not something I have seen much of around me at this time.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Souldan View Post
    Thanks for the reply. Flexibility is part and parcel the life of any Loremaster and of course should be understood. I have leveled one before and obviously know one line is not the way to go at ALL times (nor is it for any class as far as I am concerned). Others have already indicated that it is a content issue at current cap, so that has been made clear; my concern is that even in situations were AM would be needed (I do have one char at cap already to know this) I am not seeing it - so the flexibility you indicate and which I agree with, is not something I have seen much of around me at this time.
    While most solo and 3-6 man content is best with a red line, I still trait yellow for all raids.

    BfE & Flight T2's need a CC/debuff LM, and while not strictly necessary for T1, yellow gives the raid that bit of extra stability and room for error. This is great when running with a group of mixed experience, or with a non-ideal class makeup. I personally love doing these runs with CC, now that we have the +blinding-flash duration from Erebor armour and +bane-flare duration from Hytbold set.

    Of course, putting stun immunity on a full raid still sucks, but anyway....


    Smaug, I will typically run with yellow, just for the 100% Frost Lore to give the low tact mit class some survivability (and to give the healers a break!). I'm actually finding I can still make a decent DPS contribution to a Smaug Raid while traited AM:

    • Firing off an 11 target Fire lore, 10 target bane-flare, and 8 target storm lore means that melee classes can get up close and personal with the adds without worrying about being chopped to bits. This is often a bigger DPS contribution than you could ever make yourself while MoNF traited!
    • Stack water lore on a melee class during fire-tender. Champs will love being able to do more than just autoattacking the fire-tender!
    • 100% uptime on tar and warding lore can still make up a fair bit of extra dps
    • ... and you can still use your big skills (Ents, Lightning storm) to put down a big group quickly - these are not diminished much by dropping the MoNF traits


    As a side note, I've managed to convince a few groups lately to let me be the solo healer in a few 6 man runs. Blue-line traited, a bird pet plus the 4 piece Animal Hytbold set makes this quite do-able, and a lot of fun.

    Anyway - like everyone else has said, the flexibility is what makes this fun, and I would argue there is still enough places where you have room to try out different tactics and play-styles.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolas View Post
    I would change the question to be more: What content needs an AM Loremaster these days?

    Most of the loremasters I've met/seen in action are pretty pragmatic, its not about one line, but traiting what gets the job done.

    If I don't use the yellow line much, it isn't about me.....
    Very well put! This sums up my own position with regards to traiting. I am not beholden to a particular trait line, rather I go with whatever is best for the task at hand.

    Simply put there isn't much content at the moment that requires a Lore-master to go the full hog and trait right to the capstone in the AM line. For much of the content a Lore-master traited for MoNF will be more useful to the group because the extra dps he brings gets the instance/raid completed more quickly. There just isn't much call for crowd control and debuffs these days outside of the hardest raid content.

    Basically go with whatever works.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    Very well put! This sums up my own position with regards to traiting. I am not beholden to a particular trait line, rather I go with whatever is best for the task at hand.

    Simply put there isn't much content at the moment that requires a Lore-master to go the full hog and trait right to the capstone in the AM line. For much of the content a Lore-master traited for MoNF will be more useful to the group because the extra dps he brings gets the instance/raid completed more quickly. There just isn't much call for crowd control and debuffs these days outside of the hardest raid content.

    Basically go with whatever works.
    TY you for the reply to the thread - as you can see, I have already stated that I am aware of the need to be flexible so of course you go with what works...

    My concern however lies specifically about what works best and why, especially at t2 content and higher levels, and not seeing anything there but MoNF traiting. Its like the focus of the game has shifted so much to blast-fast-thank-you-class-X that no creative thinking or even room for experimentation seems to be even worth considering as far as some people are concerned.

    Sad to see. I know that the argument now is the game is just made this way, but also bear in mind that the development trend is in response to the majority rule - that being no one seems to want "complicated" content, not even in raids. I will of course raise up my loremaster again to meet current trends, but given the alternative it would appear our class (a beautiful one at that in my mind) is being reduced down to just another dps'er. Too bad. Perhaps the next expansion may return some variety to the field.

  14. #14
    Something to consider, you can currently have a 15s CD or 20s CD Blinding Flash while MoNF traited if you have the right gear pieces.

    Handy to be able to toss out that permamez if you need it.
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  15. #15
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    if you need cc you can't have 20 sec stun ... atm raid are only shame ! You don't need CC and upgrade of debuff with AM trait it's quite low ... at last you can debuff enough with 5 red trait and 2 yellow ...

    You can do more aoe damage with dps.

    My personal point of view. But atm LM need some better cc and debuff for raid and we need more hard raid.
    Like before: no debuff tank=death

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Souldan View Post
    My concern however lies specifically about what works best and why, especially at t2 content and higher levels, and not seeing anything there but MoNF traiting. Its like the focus of the game has shifted so much to blast-fast-thank-you-class-X that no creative thinking or even room for experimentation seems to be even worth considering as far as some people are concerned.
    The thing is the various classes have become so powerful over time that the content becomes trivial as a result. There simply isn't a need for CC or debuffing, or even tanking and healing in some situations, as dps is not only enough to get the job done, it can get it done fast. With the increased survival abilities of each class that focus on dps is possible. For example, at level 75 I did Roots of Fangorn T2C with no tank and no healer. In fact one member of our group was below level. We simply stacked so much damage that everything, bosses included, died before they could kill us.

    That's the situation we are dealing with here. What is the point in keeping a mob mezzed or in reducing a mob's melee damage when the mob can be killed in 5sec? Essentially dps is king at the moment.

    Sad to see. I know that the argument now is the game is just made this way, but also bear in mind that the development trend is in response to the majority rule - that being no one seems to want "complicated" content, not even in raids. I will of course raise up my loremaster again to meet current trends, but given the alternative it would appear our class (a beautiful one at that in my mind) is being reduced down to just another dps'er. Too bad. Perhaps the next expansion may return some variety to the field.
    I have played a Lore-master since beta. I rolled my Lore-master when it was a CC/debuff class without the high damage and healing output it now has. I enjoyed playing that original role. Outside of the hardest T2/T2C raids I don't get much call to play that role any more.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiwinner View Post
    if you need cc you can't have 20 sec stun ... atm raid are only shame ! You don't need CC and upgrade of debuff with AM trait it's quite low ... at last you can debuff enough with 5 red trait and 2 yellow ...

    You can do more aoe damage with dps.

    My personal point of view. But atm LM need some better cc and debuff for raid and we need more hard raid.
    Like before: no debuff tank=death
    I take it you haven't done the challenges on the new raids?
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    The thing is the various classes have become so powerful over time that the content becomes trivial as a result. There simply isn't a need for CC or debuffing, or even tanking and healing in some situations, as dps is not only enough to get the job done, it can get it done fast. With the increased survival abilities of each class that focus on dps is possible. For example, at level 75 I did Roots of Fangorn T2C with no tank and no healer. In fact one member of our group was below level. We simply stacked so much damage that everything, bosses included, died before they could kill us.

    That's the situation we are dealing with here. What is the point in keeping a mob mezzed or in reducing a mob's melee damage when the mob can be killed in 5sec? Essentially dps is king at the moment.



    I have played a Lore-master since beta. I rolled my Lore-master when it was a CC/debuff class without the high damage and healing output it now has. I enjoyed playing that original role. Outside of the hardest T2/T2C raids I don't get much call to play that role any more.
    Thanks for the reply. I have played for nearly as long, between old account and this one, and remember well how things were without current dps power on my LM - can't exactly say as I ever felt I needed it much since we have always had other skills at our disposal - still do.

    Again, I can only hope that in current plans to revamp the classes and in planning Helm's Deep, the devs are actually investing some creative thought to raiding which will give us something other than the ridiculous zerg-fests they are turning out now, because if I wanted to play straight up dps all the time, I would stick to my hunter or champ and call it a day... or better yet, go play another game I won't mention where everyone can heal and no class-specific anything is ever really needed.

    While I am glad people are enjoying the dps role on LM (I have as well) I think it significant and still sad nonetheless that such a drastic change in what we do has somehow over time become such a norm that few, if any, seem to have issues with it let alone notice it.

    I will keep hoping the next expansion may look at this, but I won't hold my breath...

  19. #19
    As stated above there are only a few runs that ud need an AM, and those are BfE T2/T2c, and flight T2/T2c. Maybe u still need an AM for ToO T2c as well.

    Giving LM superb AoE DPS was nice for soloing/deeding and some 3mans or 6mans since people wanna do fast runs and that would leave LMs out of the equation.

    But the yellow trait line is currently so weak that can't make up for the DPS loss of deep red. So AM LMs are not that popular aside the runs mentioned above. So please Turbine throw us a bone here. Give us a reason to trait AM, and make it necessary even in at least one of the new raids.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Souldan View Post
    I will keep hoping the next expansion may look at this, but I won't hold my breath...
    Dps will stay, they will not give it away, only just because almost every loves dps. What we can hope ist, that there will be enough content for "true side of lm"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pithrandir View Post
    As stated above there are only a few runs that ud need an AM, and those are BfE T2/T2c, and flight T2/T2c. Maybe u still need an AM for ToO T2c as well.
    Also bg t2 hm and od t2 hm
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  21. #21
    ToO T2C over-level doesn't need AM at least (maybe Saru), Flight T2C i dont intend to try so im uncertain, Ivar & DB in OD we have always had an LM on-line for those fights so i'm not sure there either - but everything else is doable without AM, or any LM at all in fact. Even BfE T2C as a friends raid group has shown, this is all group/strategy dependent of course and takes longer to practice without, but its a shame its not like how it used to be, where we were almost needed for some fights, or our contribution felt like more than it is nowadays.

    It used to feel more important to go AM for DN/OD/Watcher at old level caps - tentacles, BO+ghosts, overseers, gortheron adds etc..resists were more common than now so even taking 2 LMs was more useful than it is now. I had much more fun being AM at older level caps than the current cap at least..

    I did see a quote on the skill trees being introduced in the next expansion, in that it would make content 'harder' as you have to specialize more down certain lines, so i guess we will have to wait and see.
    Last edited by Unisi; Jun 15 2013 at 06:32 PM. Reason: clarification
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  22. #22
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    well ... t2c ?
    What is the senso on become AM ?
    Do you need any daze ? Not really ...
    With 5 yellow trait the debuff are the same, some trait give you an upgrade on debuff but ... you don't need to be AM for that and only give 30 sec on fire and see end. At last this debuff aren't so strong like before.
    Frost lore no need to be used atm
    The other debuff are spammable without AM.
    If you are AM traited your dps become really low and anyway see end and like versus troll ... you can debuff only one ... at last that's show how much can be useless AM in this days

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiwinner View Post
    well ... t2c ?
    What is the senso on become AM ?
    Do you need any daze ? Not really ...
    With 5 yellow trait the debuff are the same, some trait give you an upgrade on debuff but ... you don't need to be AM for that and only give 30 sec on fire and see end. At last this debuff aren't so strong like before.
    Frost lore no need to be used atm
    The other debuff are spammable without AM.
    If you are AM traited your dps become really low and anyway see end and like versus troll ... you can debuff only one ... at last that's show how much can be useless AM in this days
    1. Yes, you daze. Just think of FLM or BFE challenges.
    2. You don't use Frost-lore on FoS t2c? Your poor healers.
    3. AM allows your debuffs to last 60s instead of 30s, which is very useful in 2 of the 3.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  24. #24
    Hmmmmm. in which universe does AM allow ur debuffs last for 60secs? Cause i really wanna be in that one. That would actually make AM traitline actually worth something for its bonuses.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pithrandir View Post
    Hmmmmm. in which universe does AM allow ur debuffs last for 60secs? Cause i really wanna be in that one. That would actually make AM traitline actually worth something for its bonuses.
    You'll get the trait Force of Will when you're about Lv58-60 or so. Until then AM isn't worth it. But keep at it! When you get there you'll love having it around for tough content.


    EDIT: I just realised you've already done higher content.

    Seriously?
    You've never traited yellow capstone Force of Will?
    The one reason to trait yellow?
    You don't know what it does?
    Aaaargh this is why I hate the dumbing down of the game, people reach Lv85 without knowing their skills/traits due to solo-only quests.
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Jun 23 2013 at 05:23 AM.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

 

 
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