We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    389

    Criticisms, Suggestions - another Wishlist

    Inspired by this thread http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...or-class-ideas on general improvements to creep classes (thank you lolaaronvon) I just felt I needed to get a few things off my chest. This here is a bit of an info dump, a catharsis outlining problems, and potential solutions after a long period of frustration. Not that I expect anything to be forthcoming from turbine. This is just another 'thinking aloud' thread for us idealists.

    Note- I do not want to come across a partisan, over-zealous creep complaining about this, that and the other. Ideally, I just want to see fair, balanced play, gameplay which is as equally fun and rewarding for both sides – which we all do, I’m sure. I try to look at these issues dispassionately. Yes, I play Creep, but I hasten to add that my outlook and disposition has been very much steeped in freep-play, being a 6-year player, having completed virtually all content to end-game on freep, every quest, every raid, every deed etc. I have played Freepside in Ettens in the past as well, mostly during Moria and SoM days. But today I choose to PvP on Creepside, because, personally speaking, I find it's more fun. But I am trying to present this with a point of view that is unbiased.

    **

    - More trait slots. We need more trait slots! We get 7 slots by default from the start. I would like to see a Maximum of 10 obtainable slots. Let us imagine that the 8th slot unlocks at rank 8, the 9th at rank 12, and the final 10th slot at rank 15.

    - Does anyone seriously use the Physical and Tactical Mitigation corruptions? We are so limited in the number of Corruption slots as well, that to actually have any effect out there we are forced really to choose a Mastery+Crit+Health build that precludes any further mitigation. For the record, my corruption build (BA, rank 12) is Health for Power 2, Damage for Power 2, Mastery 1 + 2, Crit 1 +2)

    One suggestion I have, short of demanding an increase to the number of Corruption slots as well, would be to at least merge the Physical and Tactical Mitigation bonuses into one corruption, which would offer both together. Similarly Crit Protection and Crit Rating combined into one corruption would be far more desirable, and not in my opinion overpowered.

    - It's been talked about for a long time. But I think it's time for Turbine to add ranks that go beyond rank 15. This would grant an incentive (beyond just deeds – which, thanks to U11 no longer mean anything at all) to the now growing number of rank 15's to continue playing, and legitimize the existence of hard-earned rank 15 gated skills and abilities.

    - An option when Tab selecting targets to 'skip' pets and npcs. It can be very annoying in a crowded battlefield to select a desired target when you have to toggle through all the numerous pets and npcs, which you have no interest in targeting. I would find it very desirable, in these circumstance, for Tab to actually ignore everything except actual players.

    - A bear cull. Bear npcs are everywhere. I feel there are far more freep-friendly bear npcs than creep-friendly troll/warg npcs. The bears around Tir and oc in particular constantly interfere with the action. In fact a general npc reduction across the board is in order. Npcs are actually useless anyway, they serve only to get in the way of pvp - of player versus player. So why have so many? I say limit them to keeps and camps.

    - Freeps are currently...op. We all know it, but at the risk of being a nerf-shouter, I wonder if turbine have forgotten about an old feature that used to exist in Ettenmoors, called 'Not Usable with Monster Play'. I do feel there are a great many abilities on freepside that should be 'Not Usable With Monster Play’, which alone, if applied, could rebalance the situation.

    The reason I underline 'abilities' here is because I do not necessarily mean ‘skills’ per se. I'm not petitioning to have any freep skills removed, just the abilities they generate to be... somewhat curbed.

    What I mean is this. What would it look like, and feel like, if the bonuses – the legacies – of Legendary Weapons/Items were greyed out for Ettenmoors play? Before the freeps cry 'Whaaaat!!!!', it's merely a premise to think on, on how this would impact Moors play if the Legacy bonuses were unavailable in the Moors. I am not suggesting at all that Base stats, Dps Ratings etc. associated with the weapon/item, or the Relics slotted on it, be changed or removed… only the legacies that elevate damage further, or add this many ticks, improve this bubble, increase that sprint/charge/cc/ or other skill effect and duration. Only these types of bonuses applied by legacies. In effect this would revert each skill back to its initial ‘pre-legacy enhanced’ state. Is this an outrage to freeps, or is it a palatable/plausible idea? There's probably a number of things I haven't thought of, associated with legendary weapons, in which this suggestion may negatively impact our desired outcome for better balance. I don’t know. I’m merely putting this on the table.

    - I’m sure I’m not the only one who is nightly dismayed by venturing into DoF (Delvings of Thror for the uninitiated) to get the buffs? Sometimes it can be fun, running in there en masse to catch the freeps, mid boss fight, with their pants down. But this ‘PvE’ is getting tiring. And yes the DoF buffs are nice, but tbh I’d be quite happy if Turbine announced tomorrow that DoF buffs were being abolished.

    I think Turbine’s initial idea was that all this PvE shenanigans would benefit and enhance the PvP experience. It doesn’t and it isn’t. It’s bad enough we all have to run around after each other, all night long, flipping, and re-flipping the bloody outposts. But what else can be done with DoF if it was to no longer provide infamy/renown buffs? Don’t know for sure, but, what about… make it an Ettenmoors raid, an actual private encounter, available to both sides, with weekly locks, like any other Lotro raid? PvP there would not be possible by virtue of the fact that it is a private instance. The incentive? Maybe just loot – for both sides. For the creeps maybe Sigils, lootboxes, buff and boost potions and scrolls – maybe something even better than that, dare I even suggest Legendary Creep weapons?? Whatever the case, it would encourage tribes to get together – to work together as a team and do something different, and only being able to go there once a week it wouldn’t detract much from the PvP situation in the rest of the Moors, and the PvE haters won’t have much of an argument anymore.

    - Zergfests and raid babies. It is becoming more of a problem I’ve noticed, at least on my server (Eldar). Without naming any names, I, like many other creeps, are getting tired of raid vs raid when freeps insist on bringing overwhelming numbers all the time. Let me highlight the general creep mentality: Creeps make a raid only when A) the freeps have a raid, or B) the freeps have overwhelming numbers and we are being farmed. The freep mentality however seems to be more: A) make a raid no matter what – even against soloers, and farm, zerg, and farm some more! And B)… er, see A).

    This isn’t a hard and fast rule, of course. On occasion this trend is round the other way, and it is the Creeps who are raided up and farming, but only rarely, and often only in response (with some backlash) against the farmers, and to square the account.

    But most importantly, when and if the freep raid disbands, the creep raid will disband as well. It does not continue to farm relentlessly. Not so the freeps. Again, not naming names, but if the creep raid was to disband simply because the raid leader has to go to bed, or has to go do something else (yes, creeps have real lives too), the freep raid continues… continues to zerg and farm, to take advantage of the fact that the creeps are no longer grouped, are scattered and mostly solo. They continue to farm.

    I enjoy raids, I am not anti-raid at all, and I don't want to be one to suggest the raid dynamic be killed. But I would like to see a general reduction of accrued/incoming infamy and renown when raided up against significantly inferior numbers. If you are outnumbered, and the opposition is raiding against you, then I see this as unfair, and I think it quite correct that there be a penalty for this type of behaviour. One already receives less points for a kill when raided up in comparison to when they are solo. If ’significantly’ outnumbering the other side (and I’d leave the definition of ‘significantly’ to turbine) then a further reduction is, I believe, appropriate.

    An amendment to the mercurial and pretty unreliable Outnumbered Buff – how it is defined, and how it is administered – is in order as well, because at present it doesn’t really do that much, or last long enough to make it worth having. These solutions together may, ideally, dissuade certain freep parties always from compiling massive raids, sometimes 2 raids, to Pve the map all blue, and farm all night. It may even provide a new incentive for freeps to split off into groups, or, god forbid, go solo?!

    - Finally, a minor point. Isn't it a bit annoying, when, as a creep, you arrive at Grams, or as a freep at GV, you visit each npc to pick up your quests only to find that Keep quests are not available because your side already controls them? At some point, later in the night, with Keeps flipping back and forth, you will no doubt wish you had that quest, and will rely (sometimes unsuccessfully) on someone else sharing it with you. I say have all quests, namely Keep quests for CGs/Tyrants, available to pick up at all times regardless of whether said Keeps are blue or red.

    That's it. Thank you for listening.
    Last edited by Gwyndor; Jun 24 2013 at 02:44 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Waterford, Ireland
    Posts
    3,401
    Nice post. Your ideas are sound. However, I disagree that the balance situation can be addressed simply by barring some freep abilites from the Moors. Creeps are fundamentally weaker than freeps on a statistical level. Pretty much every one of our stats except for morale is leagues behind the freep level. I think that to address that, creeps need at least another two batches of passive traits, and/or better corruptions. On top of that, a batch of new skills for each class.

  3. #3
    I agree with everything except these:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyndor View Post
    - More trait slots. We need more trait slots! We get 7 slots by default from the start. I would like to see a Maximum of 10 obtainable slots. Let us imagine that the 8th slot unlocks at rank 8, the 9th at rank 12, and the final 10th slot at rank 15.
    The reason to have traits is to NOT get everything you desire. I'm against more class traits on both sides to force people to make choices

    The real problem is most Creep classes have to many useless traits - those should be buffed to the level of the useful ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyndor View Post
    - Does anyone seriously use the Physical and Tactical Mitigation corruptions? We are so limited in the number of Corruption slots as well, that to actually have any effect out there we are forced really to choose a Mastery+Crit+Health build that precludes any further mitigation. For the record, my corruption build (BA, rank 12) is Health for Power 2, Damage for Power 2, Mastery 1 + 2, Crit 1 +2)

    One suggestion I have, short of demanding an increase to the number of Corruption slots as well, would be to at least merge the Physical and Tactical Mitigation bonuses into one corruption, which would offer both together. Similarly Crit Protection and Crit Rating combined into one corruption would be far more desirable, and not in my opinion overpowered.
    Why combine Critical Rating + Critical Protection? That doesn't make sense. Again, it's about choosing between equal opportunities, those 2 are the strongest ones, combining them will worsen the cookie-cutter build problem

    Critical Rating is fine, Critical Defence could be buffed to the same number, Mastery a little higher like 2,1k

    Combining Physical and Tactical Migitation makes sense, as would creating BPE+Resistance Corruptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyndor View Post
    - Freeps are currently...op. We all know it, but at the risk of being a nerf-shouter, I wonder if turbine have forgotten about an old feature that used to exist in Ettenmoors, called 'Not Usable with Monster Play'. I do feel there are a great many abilities on freepside that should be 'Not Usable With Monster Play’, which alone, if applied, could rebalance the situation.

    The reason I underline 'abilities' here is because I do not necessarily mean ‘skills’ per se. I'm not petitioning to have any freep skills removed, just the abilities they generate to be... somewhat curbed.

    What I mean is this. What would it look like, and feel like, if the bonuses – the legacies – of Legendary Weapons/Items were greyed out for Ettenmoors play? Before the freeps cry 'Whaaaat!!!!', it's merely a premise to think on, on how this would impact Moors play if the Legacy bonuses were unavailable in the Moors. I am not suggesting at all that Base stats, Dps Ratings etc. associated with the weapon/item, or the Relics slotted on it, be changed or removed… only the legacies that elevate damage further, or add this many ticks, improve this bubble, increase that sprint/charge/cc/ or other skill effect and duration. Only these types of bonuses applied by legacies. In effect this would revert each skill back to its initial ‘pre-legacy enhanced’ state. Is this an outrage to freeps, or is it a palatable/plausible idea? There's probably a number of things I haven't thought of, associated with legendary weapons, in which this suggestion may negatively impact our desired outcome for better balance. I don’t know. I’m merely putting this on the table.
    It wouldn't help, since then the Devs would balance Creeps against those Freeps without Legacies

    However since every Freep has different Legacies it would screw the balance between Freep Classes, as some would get nerfed more than others

  4. #4
    We should not have two types of dmg to try to mitigate based on the classes we face. We should be facing the same type of dmg Freeps do, Common or Tactical. They can stack tactical mits and be fairly comfortable in fighting any Creeps they come up against. In having to choose between Physical or Tactical mits, Creeps have to guess which class makeup the Freeps they face will have. (To say nothing of the fact that our Mit corruptions are weak at best)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by mad_ox1 View Post
    We should not have two types of dmg to try to mitigate based on the classes we face. We should be facing the same type of dmg Freeps do, Common or Tactical. They can stack tactical mits and be fairly comfortable in fighting any Creeps they come up against. In having to choose between Physical or Tactical mits, Creeps have to guess which class makeup the Freeps they face will have. (To say nothing of the fact that our Mit corruptions are weak at best)
    That's not the case any more

    Many Reavers/BAs/Wargs unslot Tactical Damage and do Common instead, since that benefits much more from the Armor debuffs (both Reaver and Defiler can debuff your armor by more than 3k)

    Freeps need both migitations too
    Last edited by Chris91; Jun 26 2013 at 03:57 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Waterford, Ireland
    Posts
    3,401
    I can say from experience that the problems with creeps are far beyond any simply, tacked-on fix. Freeps are, by nature, beyond creeps as a result of a lack of new mechanics.

    There is one skill on creepside, above all, that makes a tremendous difference and is, in my opinion, the only exception to the rule: Blight. Blight counters the most powerful freep ability; healing. In my opinion, more creeps need to have abilities to reduce incoming healing, or something to a similar effect. Nothing as powerful as blight, or perhaps nothing in AOE or with DOTs. I think that if WLs were to get a skill, a single-target healing reduction skill should be one of the priorities.

    That is, after creeps have had significant buffs to their stats on a class-by-class basis. Some creep classes need upgrades to certain stats more than others.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    That's not the case any more

    Many Reavers/BAs/Wargs unslot Tactical Damage and do Common instead, since that benefits much more from the Armor debuffs (both Reaver and Defiler can debuff your armor by more than 3k)

    Freeps need both migitations too
    What is IMO a self-nerf that works out to be a situational buff based on faulty game mechanics should not be a good strategy.

    I still feel that it is ridiculous that a creep using mitigation corruptions will have some of these corruptions rendered useless depending on if they are fighting Hunters or RKs.

    Again, I think that creeps should have their mitigations divided into common and tactical. If Freeps want to not add a dmg scroll to their LI's to take better advantage of Armour debuffs, they can feel free to deal common dmg as well.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by mad_ox1 View Post
    What is IMO a self-nerf that works out to be a situational buff based on faulty game mechanics should not be a good strategy.
    Not really, right now common damage is better vs light and medium classes on almost all accounts

    Common Damage is the same as Beleriand/Ancient Dwarf/Westernisse for Creeps, as Freeps have the same Migitations against all of these

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_ox1 View Post
    I still feel that it is ridiculous that a creep using mitigation corruptions will have some of these corruptions rendered useless depending on if they are fighting Hunters or RKs.
    Well, as I said, Freeps need 2 Migitations, Creeps need 2 Migitations, where's the problem

    It's like if I complain that my Physical Migitation Virtues don't help me vs Acid/Fire/Shadow damage or my Tactical Migitation Virtues don't help against Common damage

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_ox1 View Post
    Again, I think that creeps should have their mitigations divided into common and tactical. If Freeps want to not add a dmg scroll to their LI's to take better advantage of Armour debuffs, they can feel free to deal common dmg as well.
    They wouldn't, as armor rating adds 100% Physical and Tactical Migitation on Creepside, so using Armor Debuffs benefit both damage types, while on Freepside Armor adds 100% Physical and 20% Tactical Migitation

    For Creeps Common=Beleriand etc. as Freeps migitate the same amount, while vice versa this doesn't work as Creeps have extraordinary high Common Migitation

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    They wouldn't, as armor rating adds 100% Physical and Tactical Migitation on Creepside, so using Armor Debuffs benefit both damage types, while on Freepside Armor adds 100% Physical and 20% Tactical Migitation
    [center][img]http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r753/Superiorcarrotcake/DERPIDEderp_zpsszemybhp.jpg[/img][/center]

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Middle-earth
    Posts
    1,700
    Quote Originally Posted by Nosterdamus View Post
    That tooltip has been wrong for years, just test with armour buff and read your mitigations.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    153
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    That tooltip has been wrong for years, just test with armour buff and read your mitigations.
    Looks like you were right.

    But now it just makes me wonder that are the actual % stats we see in the game really the correct ones, or is it just showing us the false info for certain stats that could actually be bugged?

    Of course that would mean a lot of testing, and i would not be surprised to find something that is really not working as intended.
    Last edited by Nosterdamus; Jun 30 2013 at 12:07 AM.
    [center][img]http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r753/Superiorcarrotcake/DERPIDEderp_zpsszemybhp.jpg[/img][/center]

  12. #12
    Found a very elaborate post to back up my point concerning mits:
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...74#post6802074

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    275
    extra trait slots would be neat, unlocked at ranks 10+. I feel like the morale currently granted from BFP's isn't really significant enough, and I doubt it makes much of a difference if any at all.

    but I guess as there's no change coming it's a moot point.
    "death is nothing to us, for when we are.. death has not come. And when death has finally come, we are not"
    R7 Spider/R11 Reaver - R13/R11 Champion

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload