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  1. #51
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    Thanks for the quote by Tolkien, yet he tried to give explanations for his whole sub-creation, if he knew genetics he probably would used it.

    Also to BirdofHermes:

    Race were are talking genetic traits, we were talking about the broad definition all along, so yes race=species in a broad sense.


    For the rest, check this picture made by a fan of tolkien about half-elf genetics:
    http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1.../halfelven.jpg

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Also to BirdofHermes:

    Race were are talking genetic traits,
    No, it's the opposite, as I've already explained. The word race in biology is(/was) a group based on phenotype; this means physical traits only, as opposed to genotype, which is based on genetic relations (because not all physical traits are genetic). And this applies to only within the same species.
    Which is also one of the reasons why the word was used in science as meaning a subspecies before genetic sciences existed: there was only phenotype to work with within a species, there was simply nothing else at the time.



    we were talking about the broad definition all along,
    Which one? There are many definitions of race.



    so yes race=species in a broad sense.
    For humans, certainly. "The human race" is a linguistic relic.
    But if you call any other species a race, you'll be in trouble with the Biology Science Law Enforcement (which is compleeeeeetely not made up...like, at all).



    For the rest, check this picture made by a fan of tolkien about half-elf genetics:
    http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1.../halfelven.jpg
    There's one thing bugging me about this (well, besides that genetics aren't 50-50 from parents, but let's not nitpick).
    Shouldn't Aragorn also have a sliver of Elf and Maiar in him? After all, his great-great-great-great-etc grandaddy was Elros, brother of Elrond.
    Unless!
    When he chose to become human, his genetics were magically reset to 100% human and just enhanced by more magicks.
    Although!
    If that was the case, Elrond's genetics would've been reset to 100% Elf as well when he chose Elf...
    But then!
    Maybe Elros retained his Maian/Elf heritage and it was just bred out in those 50+ generations of Men somehow.
    No wait!
    Maybe Elrond didn't get changed at all because he was already considered Elf, which is why they still refer to him as Half-Elven, so he retains his genetics while Elros gets a make-over.
    I've got it!
    MAGIC. The Professor said it, I believe it.
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Jul 14 2013 at 02:14 AM.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  3. #53
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    We are explicitly told that Aragorn does have a sliver of Ainur ancestry, via his descent from Melian. This is, essentially, what made the line of Elros royal (and likely why Elrond identified more with his Sindarin than his Noldorin heritage). But that influence is to be understood in mythological terms, not genetics.

    Tolkien was well aware of traditions among various ancient peoples of claiming divine ancestry for their kingly lines. Indeed, he braided this into his legendarium deliberately when he named the Vanyar and Ingwë as their king. Ingvi-Frey was a Norse god, one of the Vanir, and there were historical kings among (I think) the Danes who claimed descent from him.

    Now, are you suggesting that we should look for genetic explanations of the Vanir and Jotuns and Aesir and their interrelations and human descendants? How about titans, nymphs and gods of Olympus? It's not scientific. It's mythic. Your terms of analysis do not apply to the situation, and would not even if Elrond and Aragorn had been actual, historic persons.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Thanks for the quote by Tolkien, yet he tried to give explanations for his whole sub-creation, if he knew genetics he probably would used it.
    That's not carte blanche for you to try to insist upon your own would-be explanations after the fact. Besides, if you look at that quote, what he's saying is that he did not care about biological realism where it would clash with the story - he offers the Elves' agelessness as an example, how they could not 'really' both have had that as a characteristic and been so closely related to Men as to be able to interbreed with them. But no, Arda has its own otherworldly biological dictum there so it can happen. And that, of course, is perfectly allowable because it's fantasy, as we've been trying to remind you, and hence there are obvious limits as to how much realism it either contains or could stand.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aestivan View Post
    We are explicitly told that Aragorn does have a sliver of Ainur ancestry, via his descent from Melian. This is, essentially, what made the line of Elros royal (and likely why Elrond identified more with his Sindarin than his Noldorin heritage). But that influence is to be understood in mythological terms, not genetics.
    That's what I thought.




    Now, are you suggesting that we should look for genetic explanations of the Vanir and Jotuns and Aesir and their interrelations and human descendants? How about titans, nymphs and gods of Olympus? It's not scientific. It's mythic. Your terms of analysis do not apply to the situation, and would not even if Elrond and Aragorn had been actual, historic persons.
    Not sure if this is directed at myself or AI. If it's directed at me, no, I'm suggesting any of the sort. Fictional writing is fictional writing and science is science.
    I just loathe when science gets misrepresented like that by spreading false information or using wrong terms.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Not sure if this is directed at myself or AI...

    I just loathe when science gets misrepresented like that by spreading false information or using wrong terms.
    I can understand feeling the need to be clear about what science is or isn't. I wasn't shooting at anyone, so much as at the notion that mythic / fantastic concepts can be analyzed in such terms, which for me not just misses the point, but actively interferes with appreciating the story. So I was having my own lit crit / metaphysics nerd rage along with you, not at you.

    Be glad they don't let me discuss religion here.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aestivan View Post
    I can understand feeling the need to be clear about what science is or isn't. I wasn't shooting at anyone, so much as at the notion that mythic / fantastic concepts can be analyzed in such terms, which for me not just misses the point, but actively interferes with appreciating the story. So I was having my own lit crit / metaphysics nerd rage along with you, not at you.

    Be glad they don't let me discuss religion here.
    So its directed at me eh?, Ill keep going then.

    Mythic Geneology is moot, because it had its origin in real life Geneology or anscestry, So yes when you talk about Olympian Gods decendants like Hercules you are talking of anthropologic Gods, humanized in broad sense.

    Now why Im right?

    Well BirdofHermes has etiher shot span memory or just focus on the word and not the "meaning", I started saying race was exact meaning as species because it is, we are discussing race (Blonde, Black, Asian) within the Mythos of Tolkien so yes Im talking this definition not "your own biology one" as taxologic division.

    Also Phenotype is not a subspecies its part of a Species traits and has to do with gene allocation.

    Now to the rest.

    Tolkien disregarded not Biology in his quote, he meant he disregarded the notion of "ageing" of elves and men been different than just biology, Hint was to do with fate of elves and men.
    Last edited by Hadoril; Jul 14 2013 at 11:29 PM.

  8. #58
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    For BirdofHermes (Student of Biology)

    http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Genotype



    and link it with:

    http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Species


    its like 2+2=4

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    So its directed at me eh?, Ill keep going then.
    Tolkien disregarded not Biology in his quote, you all have FAIL reading comprehension, he meant he disregarded the notion of "ageing" of elves and men been different than just biology, Hint was to do with fate of elves and men.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolkien who is wondering when Al is ever going to get it
    This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all."
    Please, read this Al.
    Then read it again.
    And then again and again until you realize that Tolkien is explicitly stating that the rules of Biology in our Primary world do not have to apply to his Secondary world: why else does he explicitly state that it has a 'different biology'?
    Last edited by Isdring; Jul 14 2013 at 09:51 PM.

  10. #60
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    The "different Biology" tolkien said is genetics.

  11. #61
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    Please adhere to the community guidelines when posting in the forums, thank you.

    Best, Isdring.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    I did just because you called me foolish, lets see what Moderators think.
    I called your behaviour foolish, the specific behaviour being insulting people on this thread who disagreed with you by disparaging their reading comprehension and reasoning which is something I find highly ironic given the circumstances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Al
    No, he meant creator as of Christian God dictating on a different plane, so yes Biology and genetics are tools we can use to study Tolkien breeding, species, race, etc.
    He meant that if a Christian God would breathe life into his secondary creation, then the biology of that secondary creation would need to be studied on it's own terms. Yes, our world's biology can be used as a starting point (something which no one here has denied) but would become useless since there are numerous elements of his Tolkien's world which are completely at odds with contemporary science, a point he admitted himself in that very paragraph.

  13. #63
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    Due to disregard of the community guidelines, this thread is now closed.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceredig View Post
    He meant that if a Christian God would breathe life into his secondary creation, then the biology of that secondary creation would need to be studied on it's own terms. Yes, our world's biology can be used as a starting point (something which no one here has denied) but would become useless since there are numerous elements of his Tolkien's world which are completely at odds with contemporary science, a point he admitted himself in that very paragraph.
    Focus on the subject!

    Biology and Genectics are a must as we know from tolkien himself that elves and men are same species.

 

 
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