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Thread: Iron Garrison

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Im on the Idea Iron garrison is an expedition, they didn't reclaim moria until Erebor dwarves cameto help, so basically LOTRO we have an orc infested place but dwarves managed to secure some areas while not entirely, I think its pausible.

    Its a stretch but still could fill a gap of the moria history.
    Nah, it's always been complete BS because Dain had known for quite some time before the Council of Elrond that Sauron was likely to attack him for not having gone along with that small request for help in finding 'the least of rings' and the person who'd supposedly stolen it; Sauron's messenger had all but said as much. So the Longbeards would have had to be worrying about getting ready for war, including getting Erebor ready to withstand a full-scale siege, and the other Dwarves simply didn't care about Moria because it wasn't their ancestral home.

  2. #27
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    I'm surprised that nobody has had a picture of Ered-Luin to Moria, to Erebor. It's such a long distance and I don't see why anyone would even make the journey from the Blue Mountains to Moria. Other that for some back stories sake, It really was too long to walk OR ride. I would honestly think it's so long, you just wouldn't even want to make the journey. http://www.henneth-annun.net/resourc...w.cfm?EVID=990 on this website, it even says that the only reason the dwarves left, was because they had ruined towns and cities. And even then, why not just move north. Go to the Stronghold of Thorin's Hall. I really don't see a purpose in going all the way from the Blue Mountains to Moria. If you see what I'm getting at it means you have logic. But if not, I don't really see why.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Im on the Idea Iron garrison is an expedition, they didn't reclaim moria until Erebor dwarves cameto help, so basically LOTRO we have an orc infested place but dwarves managed to secure some areas while not entirely, I think its pausible.

    Its a stretch but still could fill a gap of the moria history.
    That makes even less sense. Why would Erebor wait at least 200 years after WOTR to come help?
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    That makes even less sense. Why would Erebor wait at least 200 years after WOTR to come help?
    Maybe the expedition failed and found less worthy to reclaim moria and left, Maybe Dain didn't hear from expedition and assumed something went wrong. It could be a number of factors.

    EDIT: another possibility is that trhe expedition did reclaim moria, erebor just came in to make it grandeous palace of Old.
    Last edited by Al.; Jun 25 2013 at 06:28 PM.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Maybe the expedition failed and found less worthy to reclaim moria and left, Maybe Dain didn't hear from expedition and assumed something went wrong. It could be a number of factors.
    Number 1 is possible but goes against what you said earlier.
    Number 2 doesn't make sense, how did the Iron Garrison survive for several centuries without sending out a word of help? Even Lothlorien Elves know they're in there and have already sent them help, surely they would contact Erebor if things were to go wrong.


    EDIT: another possibility is that trhe expedition did reclaim moria, erebor just came in to make it grandeous palace of Old.
    No, that is not a possibility unless Turbine changes Tolkien lore (again). The prophecy speaks of a reclaiming and recolonisation by the last of Durin's reincarnations some centuries after the fall of Sauron.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    No, that is not a possibility unless Turbine changes Tolkien lore (again). The prophecy speaks of a reclaiming and recolonisation by the last of Durin's reincarnations some centuries after the fall of Sauron.
    I know its a strech but isn't Rune Keeper a strech aswell, but its within lore.

    Also Balin when he recolinized he might have found what happened to them, maybe they failed as dwarves that were killed off by Balrog that news didn't become wide spread. And lets assume they did reclaim it before Balin arrived:

    300 years after WotR they go in because they still thought noone survived of the Durin folk, but they find still effort to reclaim it entirely and they finally win with aid of erebor, possibly Moria is so infested with orcs Iron Garrison only scratched the surface.
    Last edited by Al.; Jun 28 2013 at 12:02 AM.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    I know its a strech but isn't Rune Keeper a strech aswell, but its within lore.

    Also Balin when he recolinized he might have found what happened to them, maybe they failed as dwarves that were killed off by Balrog that news didn't become wide spread. And lets assume they did reclaim it before Balin arrived:

    300 years after WotR they go in because they still thought noone survived of the Durin folk, but they find still effort to reclaim it entirely and they finally win with aid of erebor, possibly Moria is so infested with orcs Iron Garrison only scratched the surface.
    Either I'm too tired or this is written badly or I am misunderstanding.... Can someone clarify the meaning of this post? (no offence to the person who posted this, genuinely don't understand and I am enjoying following the discussion)
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    I know its a strech but isn't Rune Keeper a strech aswell, but its within lore.

    Also Balin when he recolinized he might have found what happened to them, maybe they failed as dwarves that were killed off by Balrog that news didn't become wide spread. And lets assume they did reclaim it before Balin arrived:

    300 years after WotR they go in because they still thought noone survived of the Durin folk, but they find still effort to reclaim it entirely and they finally win with aid of erebor, possibly Moria is so infested with orcs Iron Garrison only scratched the surface.
    Can you try that again in english please?
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Can you try that again in english please?
    Spell checker wouldn't hurt either.
    Be careful though, if you upset this guy too much apparently you may become extinct, whatever the hell that means

  10. #35
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    Sorry you guys didn't follow its not fluid so Ill try again.

    I meant rune keeper concept is also a stretch in lore, but its there (pausible).

    Second, I said that news didn't get out of Moria, for example: Balrog in Moria was not a wide spread news.

    Third, Balin could have gone to Moria to reclaim it and find the Iron garrison still trying or eventual defeat/retreat.

    There is a span of 300 years posibly took that long to reclaim it even with Iron garrison there.

  11. #36
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    I don't think that cowardice is the only plausible reason why the Iron Garrison could have traveled to Moria against the will of Dain.
    It could just have been greed. The lure of mithril appears to be a powerful lure for dwarves. Perhaps greed was a more powerful motivator than fear of conflict.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunford View Post
    I don't think that cowardice is the only plausible reason why the Iron Garrison could have traveled to Moria against the will of Dain.
    It could just have been greed. The lure of mithril appears to be a powerful lure for dwarves. Perhaps greed was a more powerful motivator than fear of conflict.
    Well I still believe they left for the Lonely Mountain to help Dain. Why they entered Moria? so your character could go across it whenever he/she wanted to.

    There was an attack on Lorien, they could have aided in that. From what I remember there is only stated that there was an attack and Lorien won. For what we know they could have aided in that^^
    Last edited by Witch0King; Jun 29 2013 at 08:18 AM.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Sorry you guys didn't follow its not fluid so Ill try again.

    I meant rune keeper concept is also a stretch in lore, but its there (pausible).
    I see Rune-keepers as a complete lore break, but that's a whole different story which has been discussed at length in many other threads.



    Second, I said that news didn't get out of Moria, for example: Balrog in Moria was not a wide spread news.
    It actually was wide spread news, it's just that the Dwarves didn't know that it was a Balrog. Most of Lothlorien's population even fled Lothlorien when they heard about the terror beneath the mountain, all other Dwarf clans knew about it, all the Wise knew it, scholars wrote it down, etc. But no one knew what it was because the Dwarves didn't and were the only eye witnesses until Legolas saw and recognised it during WOTR.



    Third, Balin could have gone to Moria to reclaim it and find the Iron garrison still trying or eventual defeat/retreat.
    Balin died 25 years before the Iron Garrison went to Moria.



    There is a span of 300 years posibly took that long to reclaim it even with Iron garrison there.
    You expect the Iron Garrison somehow survives the orc-infested place for all those centuries without sending a word out?
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    I see Rune-keepers as a complete lore break, but that's a whole different story which has been discussed at length in many other threads.
    Well is not, its a strech because devs took it from a single phrase more or less this: "Dwarves use rune and words of power"


    It actually was wide spread news, it's just that the Dwarves didn't know that it was a Balrog. Most of Lothlorien's population even fled Lothlorien when they heard about the terror beneath the mountain, all other Dwarf clans knew about it, all the Wise knew it, scholars wrote it down, etc. But no one knew what it was because the Dwarves didn't and were the only eye witnesses until Legolas saw and recognised it during WOTR.
    It wasn't wide spread because only the wise knew what it was and mostly it was a suspition for example Gnadalf didn't knew for certain, scholars didn't write about only inside of moria, elves knew about it because dwarves fled Moria.

    Thats not wide spread news, its a rumor only.



    Balin died 25 years before the Iron Garrison went to Moria.
    Yeah I meant Dain, Erebor dwarves possibly only heard rumors of the Iron Garrison efforts.



    You expect the Iron Garrison somehow survives the orc-infested place for all those centuries without sending a word out?
    Yeah why not.

  15. #40
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    That would be streching it a little bit too far. If the dwarves had survived within Moria for all those years they would certainly tell someone.
    Either they died, which is very unlikely given their position in Moria.
    They left the mountain either to help Dain or flee.
    A sorcerer came to Moria and turned every dwarf into hobgoblins.
    They decided to stay and help Lorien in the battle, most may have fallen so the rest took off after that.
    They can have gone back to the Iron Hills after the War of the Ring.
    They all checked the bottom of the well the popular way.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Well is not, its a strech because devs took it from a single phrase more or less this: "Dwarves use rune and words of power"
    Runes are letters. Source on words of power?




    It wasn't wide spread because only the wise knew what it was and mostly it was a suspition for example Gnadalf didn't knew for certain, scholars didn't write about only inside of moria, elves knew about it because dwarves fled Moria.



    Thats not wide spread news, its a rumor only.
    Like I said earlier, they didn't know that it was a Balrog. The widespread news was that some nameless terror caused the most powerful clan of Dwarves to abandon the greatest Dwarf delving ever built. Sure, not everyone knew about it (I doubt the Shire or Breelanders knew about it for example), but every Dwarf and Elf in Middle-earth knew it, and it can be assumed scholars and leaders of Gondor and Dale knew it as well since they had close ties to those particular Dwarves (be it economically or militarily).





    Yeah I meant Dain, Erebor dwarves possibly only heard rumors of the Iron Garrison efforts.
    Even after centuries of peace? What would stop them from coming to help sooner?





    Yeah why not.
    Because it is ludicrous.
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Jun 29 2013 at 07:40 PM.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  17. #42
    Another argument in serious risk of getting perpetually circular.

    We all agree that the devs screwed up with RKs and the dwarves who shouldn't be from Iron Hills. Point made.

  18. #43
    Not to mention that Turbine couldn't imagine releasing an expansion without friendly way-stations with quest givers, vendors, banks, mail and so on although it would have been interesting if they tried it. Since a tribe of friendly, trading, mail delivering orcs made no sense the Iron Garrison was born.

    A real moria would have been much like the old pen & paper D&D. Carry whatever you can in and out and hope you make it
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  19. #44
    I have a solution as to why they are entering Moria from the West, provided in the dialogue from Bosi at the end of Chapter 3: Bosi the Dwarf:

    "....My cousin Brogur and I determined to seek Balin in Moria some months ago, but it took many weeks to assemble an expedition of dwarves willing to accompany us. WE TOOK A ROUNDABOUT WAY OVER THE MOUNTAINS SO AS TO SPEAK TO LORD GLOIN a close friend of our father's, about Khazad-dum."

    (sorry for bringing this up when it is clearly finished, but I am running a new char and saw this and well....
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  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Geindir View Post
    I have a solution as to why they are entering Moria from the West, provided in the dialogue from Bosi at the end of Chapter 3: Bosi the Dwarf:

    "....My cousin Brogur and I determined to seek Balin in Moria some months ago, but it took many weeks to assemble an expedition of dwarves willing to accompany us. WE TOOK A ROUNDABOUT WAY OVER THE MOUNTAINS SO AS TO SPEAK TO LORD GLOIN a close friend of our father's, about Khazad-dum."

    (sorry for bringing this up when it is clearly finished, but I am running a new char and saw this and well....
    we never finish around here

    But Gloin was at Imladris for the council and might not have been in a hurry to return with winter approaching so it's a bit ingenious of the devs to work that idea in as a way get the dwarves on our side of the Mistys to open Moria to us. The Fellowship was not sure of their path so Gloin would not be betraying anything if he directed them to look for the old western gate.
    "You can't fight the Enemy with his own Ring without turning into an Enemy" - J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 81



  21. #46
    Then again with Gloin normally living in Erebor and the expedition necessarily needing quite some time to prepare they would have had ample opportunity to consult him before he left for Imladris so they wouldn't need to haul the whole supply train over the mountains for one Dwarf. Ah well, that's at least some justification.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorvlad View Post
    Then again with Gloin normally living in Erebor and the expedition necessarily needing quite some time to prepare they would have had ample opportunity to consult him before he left for Imladris so they wouldn't need to haul the whole supply train over the mountains for one Dwarf. Ah well, that's at least some justification.
    Sorry for bringing this up again, but why not? I mean, Imladris has probably more information about Moria than Erebor due to its vicinity, then asking Gloin that might have heard something and eventually read about it is not that much a nonsense imho

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by OstrogothITA View Post
    Sorry for bringing this up again, but why not? I mean, Imladris has probably more information about Moria than Erebor due to its vicinity, then asking Gloin that might have heard something and eventually read about it is not that much a nonsense imho
    Why should the Elves have had any more information? Pretty much everyone (apart from the likes of Gandalf and Aragorn) shunned the place because it had such an evil reputation as well as being inherently dark and scary to a quite horrible degree, and let's not forget that nobody had gone into Moria via the Doors of Durin (i.e. from the end nearest Imladris) for a long time. If there'd been much known latterly then Gandalf would never have lead the Fellowship that way because he'd have known the place was rife with Orcs - the plot requires that element of the unknown to work. Besides which, Gloin knew all about the worsening situation at Erebor (Easterlings massing on Dale's borders, Dale getting panicky about it) and so he'd be thinking about that, just as he was at the Council of Elrond, rather than mad adventures into Moria.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Why should the Elves have had any more information?
    I believe that the reason we see Elves in Eregion in LOTRO is because the devs made it so that some of them return there after the fellowship. Perhaps to watch their backs. Because when the Fellowship passed through Eregion, the book made quite a point about how it was ridiculously quiet and stuff. Even the rock stuff- "Deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone". Clearly these elves had not returned to Hollin then. Therefore, if they came after- why? to watch the Company? to cover their trail? Those are my guesses. And if so, they should have been reporting back to Elrond periodically- after all, he was probably the one who sent them in the first place. Would they not have reported the fact that the Sirannon has all of a sudden formed a colossal lake at the gate of Moria? or perhaps that the gates are forced inwards and that the trees around them have been uprooted?
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReallyFat View Post
    I believe that the reason we see Elves in Eregion in LOTRO is because the devs made it so that some of them return there after the fellowship. Perhaps to watch their backs. Because when the Fellowship passed through Eregion, the book made quite a point about how it was ridiculously quiet and stuff. Even the rock stuff- "Deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone". Clearly these elves had not returned to Hollin then. Therefore, if they came after- why? to watch the Company? to cover their trail? Those are my guesses. And if so, they should have been reporting back to Elrond periodically- after all, he was probably the one who sent them in the first place. Would they not have reported the fact that the Sirannon has all of a sudden formed a colossal lake at the gate of Moria? or perhaps that the gates are forced inwards and that the trees around them have been uprooted?
    The supposed Dwarven expedition into Moria would have had to have got started long before any of that even happened because it'd take ages to organise and then take a long time to even get there. There'd be nothing to imply that going into Moria was any better an idea than it had been before, nor provide Dain with any reason to allow it when Durin's Bane was still there (remember, nobody had any idea what was going to happen and Dain was all too well aware of the terror that lurked in Moria, he'd felt the fear of it himself once*), and the last guys who went there hadn't been heard from in many years (making it easy to guess their fate), and besides that the Dwarves were faced with full-scale war at home - war with Mordor, no less. Not the sort of scenario anyone would look at and go "Oh, good time to reclaim Moria then!".


    * "...we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter Khazad-dûm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria."

    - Dain, speaking to Thrain after the Battle of Azanulbizar (LOTR Appendix A)

 

 
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