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  1. #1
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    Critical Defense and Raid-Tanking

    Hello LotRO community.
    Been toying around with my crit defense builds on my raid-tanking warden, and I wanted to hear some thoughts on crit defense.
    I created a build tonight which got my crit defense to 78.9%.
    Is this really worth it? I don't sacrifice too much b/p/e but still have a good enough morale pool. i.e. around 21k with raid buffs. Not as high as it could be- but I think this build would be super useful in tougher content where, as the tank, you would take large hits.

    Bottom line: Suggestions? Is 21k crit defense too much?
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  2. #2
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    Personally I think 50% unbuffed is enough, that way most crits will be reduced to normal hits. Values over 50% will only further reduce devastates and some crits that may have more than the normal 150% multiplier. It's not a total waste, but I'd rather get other stats (BPE, Mitigations, Morale, Resistance, ICPR, Inc Healing) at that point.
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  3. #3
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    I thought the cap was 70%?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Neomoth View Post
    Hello LotRO community.
    Been toying around with my crit defense builds on my raid-tanking warden, and I wanted to hear some thoughts on crit defense.
    I created a build tonight which got my crit defense to 78.9%.
    Is this really worth it? I don't sacrifice too much b/p/e but still have a good enough morale pool. i.e. around 21k with raid buffs. Not as high as it could be- but I think this build would be super useful in tougher content where, as the tank, you would take large hits.

    Bottom line: Suggestions? Is 21k crit defense too much?
    For Wardens I recommend 70% crit d only for BFE t2c because those guys can 2 shot you with 150% buff. For everything else you'll be fine with anything around 50%.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimdi View Post
    Personally I think 50% unbuffed is enough, that way most crits will be reduced to normal hits. Values over 50% will only further reduce devastates and some crits that may have more than the normal 150% multiplier. It's not a total waste, but I'd rather get other stats (BPE, Mitigations, Morale, Resistance, ICPR, Inc Healing) at that point.
    I don't think that is how critical defence works. It reduces the critical part of the hit by 50%. It doesn't subtract 50% from the multiplier.
    Last edited by Cirgellon; Jun 14 2013 at 09:21 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I don't think that is how critical defence works. It reduces the critical part of the hit by 50%. It doesn't subtract 50% from the multiplier.
    Then you should read the relevant dev diaries again.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I don't think that is how critical defence works. It reduces the critical part of the hit by 50%. It doesn't subtract 50% from the multiplier.
    That's incorrect. It works as assumed by Grimdi, your crit D is directly susbtracted from the magnitude of the incoming crit/dev (though you can never lower the dmg past past the 100% mark; this is to make sure that crits don't hit weaker than regular hits). If your crit D is at 50% all crits with regular crit modifiers will hit about the same as a regular hit at the top end of the skill's dmg range. Taking your crit D past 50% will only work against either devastates (as they have higher magnitues than crits) or crits with uncommonly high crit multipliers.
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  8. #8
    Well, I don't know the exact mechanics. I can say that you guys aren't entirely correct. I have 60% critical defence and normal mobs are critting higher than their normal hits.

    "Once a hit has been determined to be a Critical or Devastating Critical Hit a multiplier is applied to the attack giving it the bonus damage. Critical Defence directly reduces this multiplier, causing a Critical or Devastating Hit to do less damage. The multiplier can never be reduced below 1, ensuring that a Critical or Devastating Hit will never do less than the base attack damage"

    So maybe it does subtract from the multuplier, but looks like it has to be reduced to 1 in order to do base attack damage.

  9. #9
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    That's likely because a standard attack does varying damage in a given range, while crits always use the upper-end of that range.
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  10. #10
    Boss type mobs can also have higher crit magnitudes, similar to how we get a higher crit magnitude from crit rating. So having a higher than 50% crit d can make sense for bosses. How much higher is the real question. Considering if a LM is using SOP:SAE on the boss, the actual crit chance and crit magnitude should be relatively low, so I feel having between 50% and 70% is probably best. You want at least 50% to keep normal crits as low as possible, while having a little bit extra gives you some wiggle room in case the boss has a skill that has a high crit multiplier, or has lots of crit rating (which results in higher crit magnitudes), and to also reduce devastates a bit. I do feel 78% is a bit too high. But at the same time, if you are not sacrificing other stats (maybe other than morale) to get there, I can't see how it would be a big problem. Just make sure your mits are capped (or close so that raid buffs will cap them), BPE are close to caps (so that your buffs and raid buffs will send them over caps) and you should have a decent incoming healing. 21k morale should be enough for most raids. If none of those are being sacrificed then go with it!

  11. #11
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    21k morale sounds a bit low, but in a way, high crit defence will make up for it...

    Is that 21k crit defence with DoW up? And is it with ring/shield proc (if you have it) up?

    Anyway, the way I see it with wardens with the current raids is:

    1.Make sure you can max your BPE with selfbuffs
    2.Make sure your inc healing is up where it should be (not under 20%)
    3.Make sure you have a stable morale pool (I'd say around 19-20k unbuffed)
    4.Stack crit defence
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  12. #12
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    Just under 21k crit defence rating gives my guard only 71%

    Last edited by Bhoris_they_spider; Jun 14 2013 at 01:55 PM.

  13. #13
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    Here's where I'm at:


    Max b/p/e with Parry buff from captain + self buffs

    Good incoming healing (not too low)

    ~21,970 morale with hope token/motivation

    21,460 critical defense with proc from shield


    Here's how I'm doing it:
    A lot of the crit defense just comes from every piece of my armor (around 1k per piece) almost every jewel (2k or so a piece) and proc from the shield. Also determination stance gives 700? or so critical defense as a passive and I think traiting shield line gives critical defense as a bonus
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  14. #14
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    Here's where I'm at:


    Max b/p/e with Parry buff from captain + self buffs (obviously this comes largely from choice of relics/other stats your character has)

    Good incoming healing (not too low- I'll have to check later what it is at.. not below 20% )

    ~21,970 morale with hope token/motivation

    21,460 critical defense with proc from shield


    Here's how I'm doing it:
    A lot of the crit defense just comes from every piece of my armor (around 1k per piece) almost every jewel (2k or so a piece) and proc from the shield. Also determination stance gives 700? or so critical defense as a passive and I think traiting shield line gives critical defense as a bonus
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shintagh View Post
    For Wardens I recommend 70% crit d only for BFE t2c because those guys can 2 shot you with 150% buff. For everything else you'll be fine with anything around 50%.
    I really don't see having that extra crit d helping when the trolls have 150%+ dmg bonus from blood rage/brothers. At that point it's not crits that're going to one shot you, since it's their base damage that has increased significantly at that point. Any attacks are capable of 1-2 shotting you if the bonus gets beyond that point regardless of an extra 10% reduction on devastates only (neither troll has any attacks that I've seen with a crit multiplier greater than the standard 50%.
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  16. #16
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    Thanks for the advice guys. Might just stick with ~55-60% crit defense which will raise my morale, keeping high b/p/e.
    Good posts everyone
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenilie View Post
    I really don't see having that extra crit d helping when the trolls have 150%+ dmg bonus from blood rage/brothers. At that point it's not crits that're going to one shot you, since it's their base damage that has increased significantly at that point. Any attacks are capable of 1-2 shotting you if the bonus gets beyond that point regardless of an extra 10% reduction on devastates only (neither troll has any attacks that I've seen with a crit multiplier greater than the standard 50%.
    It really does make a difference. I've tanked it on a Warden and healed a Warden with 50 and 70% crit d and there is a considerable difference. A normal hit for 6-7k followed by a distributed for 10-12k and depending on morale pool the Warden is already down to 15-20% morale. At that point a devastate from almost any attack could kill you if you don't have high crit d and this scenario has the potential to pop up every 20 seconds. That 2-3k less damage may not seem significant on paper but Wardens are still prone to 2 shots and in a run like BFE where it's so frustrating wiping because of your tank I'd do everything in my power to prevent that from happening. 70% crit d alone won't guarantee you that, you need to run 27-28k morale with that as well. Besides I don't get what other stat you would invest in. BPE is super easy to cap, 20% inc healing is basic and it's just morale and crit d stacking from there. It's not like to get 70% crit d I have to sacrifice a ton of BPE. Spike damage is the Warden's Achillies Heel and we've been given a reliable way to deal with it, why not use it.

    The above would be even more true if our crit immunity wasn't bugged. The difference between 2 devs in a row between 50% and 70% crit d would easily be 5-10k. Also you will be 1 shotted by devastates on melee high and arc with 50% crit d if you don't have fire-lore up. Guaranteed.
    Last edited by Shintagh; Jun 15 2013 at 07:43 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider View Post
    Just under 21k crit defence rating gives my guard only 71%

    This is pointless. with procs and buffs I think I hit 61% on crit D on my guard, and that is only because I can't lose any crit defense anywhere for better gear, if I could, I would work it back to 50%.

    There is nothing in game currently that requires stacking of that much Crit D, for a guardian. Warden, may be a different matter.

    If you look in your combat log at the hits that are one-shotting or two-shotting tanks in BFE t2, chances are they aren't crits, so crit D is pointless, you're either getting hit with a distributed attack and taking the brunt of it yourself, or you're getting hit with a HIGH damage melee, I believe there are low, medium, and high, that the trolls hit with, and they don't crit anywhere near as frequently as you might think, especially when debuffed with see all ends

    Either way, these hits can all be avoided with B/P/E, and looking at your screenshot your parry rating is embarrassingly low. And that's even with threat stance on, good god! You should be able to easily cap block and parry, and have at least 15% evade before you even think about stacking crit D any higher than 50%

    As mits are easy to cap, and max morale is damn near pointless in endgame right now, I'd suggest you shed a few vitality points, and work in some agility and might in your build, and possibly raw evade rating on your LI title
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenilie View Post
    I really don't see having that extra crit d helping when the trolls have 150%+ dmg bonus from blood rage/brothers. At that point it's not crits that're going to one shot you, since it's their base damage that has increased significantly at that point. Any attacks are capable of 1-2 shotting you if the bonus gets beyond that point regardless of an extra 10% reduction on devastates only (neither troll has any attacks that I've seen with a crit multiplier greater than the standard 50%.
    QFT, it's not usually crits that are killing people in BFE. It's often just unfortunate strings of hits that get through B/P/E and actually hit the tank, at an inopportune time. (blood rage t2 or t3, or blood brothers)
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  20. #20


    Right, so, as I said, may be different for warden.. but if you're a guardian, your stats should look like this or better, before you even consider stacking your CritD any higher than 50%.

    As you can see, block and parry both capped. Evade is Lower than I would like it to be, roughly 13% I think, I would like it to be between 15-17%

    Mitigations are capped with buffs/scrolls.

    Inc healing is just under cap with proc up.

    Things I would improve, if I had the patience to grind out more seals for my 6th-7th most played alt, and if there was any difficult content that required stats better than what you see here, I would grab some raw evade legendary titles to slap on LIs, and I would barter for the t2 erebor gear for gloves/legs/helm now that I finally got this toon unlocked, and last but not least, I would farm BG t1 a few times until I got the cloak with the raw evade rating on it.

    If I had ALLLL of that stuff done, and my stats were as tweak as can be, I would consider raising my crit defense above the 60ish % it sits at now, all proc'd out, and as I said, if there were a way to sacrifice 10% crit defense, for even 2-3% evade, I would do it in a heartbeat.

    50% is plenty
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  21. #21
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    Vodomir and Lenilie have the right of it as far as how Crit D works. Crit D at +50% subtracts from a boss's 150% total multiplier on crits to make the crit do regular (100%) damage, and it subtracts from a boss's 200% total dev multiplier to make it 150%.

    Also, I know that in U10 the BfE trolls didn't have any crit or dev bonus to their multipliers on any attacks (except I was unable to test Distributed). I also know Grim from Smaug, Commander Unudhu, and the rando mordor orcs outside Snowbourne don't have crit multiplier bonuses either. I tentatively assume that extends to many more PVE critters.

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Z...Multiplier.jpg
    Me running into BfE T2 with no buffs (maybe just stance) and 53% or so Crit D. Getting pulverized for science. Notice how crits = hits in how much damage they do. I had a devil of a time getting devastated though, so that's not in this old picture. Uploaded Mar. 23.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Z...Multiplier.jpg
    Me running into BfE T2 with no buffs (maybe just stance) and 53% or so Crit D. Getting pulverized for science. Notice how crits = hits in how much damage they do. I had a devil of a time getting devastated though, so that's not in this old picture. Uploaded Mar. 23.
    Here's a full-size image for that link... 144 width isn't gonna do anyone any good :-P

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdalorTrailtamper View Post
    snip!
    Thank you for the critique of my 'build'. Unfortunately you didnt pick up that this was just a 'critical defence stack' build that I put together for the purposes of this thread. I was dubious of the original posters claim that 21k crit defence rating equates to 78.9% crit defence so stacked an equivalent amount of Crit defence and posted a screenshot showing it only corresponds to 71% on my Guardian. As I was disputing the original posters claim (at least to an extent) I thought I'd post a screenshot to show my values and didnt expect people to think it was a serious build. I am curious as to how his value is so much higher than mine for an equivalent rating and wondered if it is some sort of raid-buff or warden self-buff that is responsible for the difference.

    With regard to BPE... From my experience the only raid where it is significant is BFE. Do a full run of OD T2 or BG T2 and look at your BPE numbers.... Tanking gortheron or Ivar will give you a single digit number of BPE evades over the course of the fight. That said there is no real need to stacking mitigations these days so no reason not to go for a BPE build. FYI I currently have a build that can cap block and parry when in block stance (assuming ward + full raid buffs)... I have over 8k evade unbuffed too which will get me close(ish) to cap with legacied-protection, buffs, and minstrel anthem

 

 

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