We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Lothlorien
    Posts
    1,708

    United We Stand, Divided We Fall

    I don't know if this will actually get anywhere (it probably won't), but I feel it needs to be said.

    Lately, as I'm sure most of you will agree, PvP has been terrible. Lack of balance and too much PvE seem to be the main complaints. Many of us have called out to Turbine, practically begging them to fix things. The way we are doing it however, is not the right way to go about it.

    Almost every thread in these PvP forums is a flame war and trollfest. Even those threads that are started by people with good intentions go down in flames soon after their beginnings. Fellow PvPers, I understand your frustration, I really do. I'm frustrated as well. But this is not the right way to go about this issue. Do you think that flaming every post or filling every post with worthless memes and overused phrases such as "l2p" will get you anywhere? It won't. You're just making the situation even worse than it has to be.

    Much of the conflict is stemming from the issue of "sides". Freepside and Creepside. Both sides are different and have different views. Understandable, this is a PvP game. However, you are all PVPERS. Step one of fixing PvP should be done by the community. If the community has a bad attitude about PvP and is always attacking the other side and tearing each other down, PvP will never be better, no matter what Turbine does. Put aside your differences and work with each other instead of against each other.

    tl;dr (or didn't understand): Stop with the ridiculous bickering and help improve the community.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    96
    Fixing the imbalance is complicated since the classes do not mirror one another. I think both sides have some decided advantages though when it comes down to RvR, comparable numbers, I think most agree the Freeps have the firepower edge. I suggested elsewhere that, aside from boosting the dps/healing output of creeps, some sort of Legendary Item for creeps to attain (perhaps released around the same time as updates for the freeps) might work. Reavers getting Morgul Blades, wargs getting Morgul Collars, etc. It might break the cycle of 'Creeps dominate early after an expansion, Freeps dominate late'. Turbine has to have considered this in the past though. I'm guessing they decided it would be too much work.

    As for the community...yikes. PVMP tends to create a more competitive environment. Emotions rise. Things get hostile. It's not an easy thing to fix. There are definitive sides and they tend to see vastly different realities. Having spent time on both sides, I see the OOC chatter and I sometimes check to see if I am on the right server and seeing the same game they are. Finding agreement on the problem and solution is no small task.

  3. #3

    Thumbs up

    This. Absolutely true. Unbalanced PvP is bad enough, but the thing that really puts me off in Lotro PvP is the flaming and the attitude "I'm better than you, learn to play you idiot".
    I don't think that will change though, since a lot of people seem to gain their self-esteem from thinking they play better than others and telling them and everybody else in OOC so, as if that made them a better player or person. To the silent majority in the channel, it just makes them seem utterly ridiculous.

    I'd love to see more respect for other players, and more importantly the person behind the character. Forum posts won't change that, sadly, we can only determine the way we ourselves play. So don't let the trolls get to you, ignore them as best you can. Be friendly to other players, even those who accidently wipe the raid due to lack of experience or the person who just beat you/zerged you. Winning a fight may or may not mean you're the better player, but fairplay does not only mean to obey accepted rules for 1vs1s but to treat others the way you want to be treated yourself.

    The excuse "PvP will be like that" is invalid - if you consider it a sport to play better than others and are competitive (nothing bad about that, I am too!) remember that the fairplay component is an important part of nearly every sport/hobby. And using the anonymity the internet grants you to forget about that aspect is far more cowardly than running from a virtual fight. Just sayin

    I'll stop here before I become all philosophical, but I was really happy to see this post and realize there are others who feel the same way. Kuddos to the OP, and battle on for a better community
    Last edited by Iorareth; Jun 07 2013 at 04:09 PM.
    Lächel - denn du kannst sie nicht alle töten

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    374
    In my opinion there are two major factors going against reasonable discussions. The first is that the internet tends to inflate things into the hyperbolic just by its very nature. The second is that pvp tends to attract a group of people that derive pleasure in making other people's lives more difficult. To be perfectly clear on this point, I am not saying that all pvpers are like this. It is just that the very nature of pvp attracts them.

    Now having said that there are a few things that those of us that are more reasonable minded can do. The first is to completely ignore those that go down the road of attacking people. I mean even going so far as to not address anything in their post at all. The second is to have a slightly thicker skin. Just because I say something like RKs are very powerful does not mean that I am calling someone an inferior player for choosing that as their pvp character. And of course we have to make sure that we remain on the high ground ourselves. At no point can we allow our posts to devolve into anything even close to what those that seek to derail a conversation will do.

    In my opinion, due to the nature of expansions pvp balance at all times is not possible nor should we even try to make it so. Immediately after an expansion creeps are more powerful. As second agers/ on level gear get acquired we should see some level of parity and as first agers/ top level gear become more the norm freeps should be at the top. The problem this cycle is that the parity phase was very short. And even worse it appears that the freep on top phase is going to be very very long. The issue here is how to balance the pve need vs the pvp situation. I don't have any answers for this but any discussion of pvp balance needs to acknowledge this fact, and take it into account.
    [URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/nalv.jpg/][IMG]http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7739/nalv.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Waterford, Ireland
    Posts
    3,401
    Your point is logical, your intent is sound.

    But it really is not possible, I think. PVP'ers here are like a coalition government. We all want to get into government, but all disagree on what to do when we get there.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Gramsfoot
    Posts
    374
    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    We all want to get into government, but all disagree on what to do when we get there.

    A quote comes to mind, “I’m like a dog chasing cars, I wouldn’t know what to do if I caught one, you know, I just do…things.”

    Very similar to the matter at hand. We're all chasing and wanting something, but even if we got it... we wouldn't know what to do with it. If Turbine somehow magically made PvP perfect for everyone, there would still be bickering and fighting over matters trivial.
    That's the thing with PvP, in every game.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/65Fa0CU.jpg[/IMG]
    Don't touch me. I'm evil.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    547
    Man I like you and this all sounds good and stuff but it's been the exact same since launch and you shouldn't get your hopes up to be honest. Our creepside is nice on our server and we are fortunate, let's just hope we can maintain what we have.
    What is it? What do you smell?

  8. #8
    I’ve managed to miss all the other “fix” pvp threads, but figure I’ll throw in my two coppers here….I’m sure versions of which have been covered here and there by others.

    Warning incoming wall of text…

    Personally I feel that “balance” is the biggest issue in the moors. “Balance” covers both numbers and individual toon’s power. Balance is difficult to achieve in PVP focussed games with mirrored classes, let alone a game like lotro with widely diverse classes/factions. Especially if you assume that PvP will never be a focus of the title and will always have limited dev resources devoted to pvp.

    My solution?.....Simplify the moors. Issues have arisen over time as freep classes (and the game overall) has migrated into a solo friendly PVE game where every class can do everything, virtually at the same time. This makes base-lining a freep very difficult, especially if you throw in multiple LI’s and gear swapping. I know a portion of the community is against the concept of Audacity but frankly it is needed (and prolly needs to be increased) in order to further reduce build options on freepside. Again “balancing” is hard in the best of times, and this game devotes minimal attention to PvP so should design the game to make balancing easier via limiting the variables.

    Numbers balance is a tricky issue (and often used as an excuse for freep>creep power). Numbers are not static though, and vary over time, location and server. I propose that they address the underlying reasons for the #’s discrepancy. Putting FTP aside (which would also help), the other primary reason imho is the long grind in freepside PVE to become competitive in PvP. Along with the above suggestions of simplifying freepside (from a moors only perspective) I think they should make ALL required freepside gear and virtues available in the moors, and easy to get (goal being fun pvp, not mindless grinding or farming alt accounts). If they wanted they could even go as far as auto leveling any toon to level cap within the moors sandbox. Again this will narrow the gearing gaps freepside and make "balancing" easier.

    TLDRish: Moors will never get the needed dev attention, so why not simplify it for both freepside/creepside to be able to jump in and play easily and quickly. Reduce variability’s in classes/builds to make balancing easier for the limited dev resources. Want to play a different role that you can’t with your main….roll an alt and get into the moors easily and efficiently. Goal: Fun easy to get into action…not a grind that takes months/years (for average non-basement dwelling playerbase to achieve) or encourages people to just farm accounts.

    /shrug.
    GRUSM - REAVER, DUSKPAW - WARG, STIXM - WEAVER, GRUZGASH - BA

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Lothlorien
    Posts
    1,708
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisCML View Post
    I’ve managed to miss all the other “fix” pvp threads, but figure I’ll throw in my two coppers here….I’m sure versions of which have been covered here and there by others.

    Warning incoming wall of text…

    Personally I feel that “balance” is the biggest issue in the moors. “Balance” covers both numbers and individual toon’s power. Balance is difficult to achieve in PVP focussed games with mirrored classes, let alone a game like lotro with widely diverse classes/factions. Especially if you assume that PvP will never be a focus of the title and will always have limited dev resources devoted to pvp.

    My solution?.....Simplify the moors. Issues have arisen over time as freep classes (and the game overall) has migrated into a solo friendly PVE game where every class can do everything, virtually at the same time. This makes base-lining a freep very difficult, especially if you throw in multiple LI’s and gear swapping. I know a portion of the community is against the concept of Audacity but frankly it is needed (and prolly needs to be increased) in order to further reduce build options on freepside. Again “balancing” is hard in the best of times, and this game devotes minimal attention to PvP so should design the game to make balancing easier via limiting the variables.

    Numbers balance is a tricky issue (and often used as an excuse for freep>creep power). Numbers are not static though, and vary over time, location and server. I propose that they address the underlying reasons for the #’s discrepancy. Putting FTP aside (which would also help), the other primary reason imho is the long grind in freepside PVE to become competitive in PvP. Along with the above suggestions of simplifying freepside (from a moors only perspective) I think they should make ALL required freepside gear and virtues available in the moors, and easy to get (goal being fun pvp, not mindless grinding or farming alt accounts). If they wanted they could even go as far as auto leveling any toon to level cap within the moors sandbox. Again this will narrow the gearing gaps freepside and make "balancing" easier.

    TLDRish: Moors will never get the needed dev attention, so why not simplify it for both freepside/creepside to be able to jump in and play easily and quickly. Reduce variability’s in classes/builds to make balancing easier for the limited dev resources. Want to play a different role that you can’t with your main….roll an alt and get into the moors easily and efficiently. Goal: Fun easy to get into action…not a grind that takes months/years (for average non-basement dwelling playerbase to achieve) or encourages people to just farm accounts.

    /shrug.
    The purpose of this thread isn't calling for "fixing" PvP....there've been far too many threads like that, and I think everything that needed to be said about that subject has already been said.

    This thread is focusing more on the community aspect rather than the game itself.

    Sozu, I agree. Our server is in a pretty good spot right now. I feel somewhat lucky I chose to stick around on Ridder.

    I'm not really getting my hopes up...I really don't see anything changing anytime soon, in game or in forums. I just have had this feeling for a long time now, and I felt that it really should be said.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,197
    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    However, you are all PVPERS. Step one of fixing PvP should be done by the community. If the community has a bad attitude about PvP and is always attacking the other side and tearing each other down, PvP will never be better, no matter what Turbine does.

    I started laughing here. But then, I find that some people believe this sad.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Lothlorien
    Posts
    1,708
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffi View Post
    I started laughing here. But then, I find that some people believe this sad.
    Sorry, Stoffi, but I don't follow. Are you saying that you find the fact that some people believe that we're all PvPer's funny?
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Ettenmoors
    Posts
    2,324
    I agree with what you're saying here. Unfortunately it's impossible trying to convince some people to get along lol

  13. #13
    I agree. and lets ignore all ppl that attack others and find it fun even. Lets just come with ideas and counterideas, arguments with actual experience and proof why it wouldn't work etc. Like well, normal people discuss something? :P

  14. #14
    The PVMP players form a "community". Players with like interests. Players who enjoy a certain aspect of the game. All PVMP players require opponents. Without the "other side" there's only PVE.

    Those players with the maturity to understand there is a "community" the exists, have the best chance of getting "noticed" by the Powers That Be.

    Expecting a Dev to read through pages and posts of /diatribe and /rant, just to get to 1 post in the middle that tried to suggest something positive, is not happening. Only the posters who's direct interest in the /rant are reading these threads.

    If players expect to have a 'reasoned' and 'forthright' discussion that will enable the Devs to understand your issues, you will have to come together as a "community" and leave the PVMP part in the Ettenmoors.

    Think about it. The alternative is far worse.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Lothlorien
    Posts
    1,708
    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    The PVMP players form a "community". Players with like interests. Players who enjoy a certain aspect of the game. All PVMP players require opponents. Without the "other side" there's only PVE.

    Those players with the maturity to understand there is a "community" the exists, have the best chance of getting "noticed" by the Powers That Be.

    Expecting a Dev to read through pages and posts of /diatribe and /rant, just to get to 1 post in the middle that tried to suggest something positive, is not happening. Only the posters who's direct interest in the /rant are reading these threads.

    If players expect to have a 'reasoned' and 'forthright' discussion that will enable the Devs to understand your issues, you will have to come together as a "community" and leave the PVMP part in the Ettenmoors.

    Think about it. The alternative is far worse.
    Well said Sabriel, +rep.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload