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Thread: Horses

  1. #1

    Horses

    March is disabled in combat, horses require an interrupt; dismount horses in combat or require an interrupt to disengage march.

    That is it.

    Discuss.

  2. #2
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    Maps.

  3. #3
    what of them? The sides are not mirrored, freeps have many advantages over creeps in other ways, maps are a creep perk.

    The general mobility away from map points is more the case in question.

  4. #4
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    Maps give creeps instant access to distant points on the map, horses (+goats) require movement; give horses teleportation to points on the map or destroy all maps.

    That is it.

    Discuss.

  5. #5
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    I suppose, in summation:
    Freepside: superior movement on the battlefield; yet lack of teleport to the battlefield
    -mounts +62/68% movement speed; requires interrupts to end
    Creepside: inferior movement on the battlefield; yet ability to teleport en masse to the battlefield
    -march/mobilize +25/35% movement speed; ends immediately in combat
    -maps give access to various points on the map

    Mirrored? No. Balanced? Possibly.

  6. #6
    Skewed abilities in tanking, healing, cc and toon flexibility are all freepside advantages, creep have maps to fixed points on the landscape. The map is not large and riding from lug to tr does not take long.

    Away from map points, a toons ability to stay mounted in combat until it is interrupted is a perk that is over the top.

    Directly comparing map points to the equation of march-horses is a deflection. Freeps would be no less able to ride to places ont eh map than they are now.

    The difference would be once an opponent is engaged anywhere on the map.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Skewed abilities in tanking, healing, cc and toon flexibility are all freepside advantages, creep have maps to fixed points on the landscape.
    An irrelevant comparison. Mobility balance should never be considered with combat balance. It is entirely true that Freepside, for almost every class, is overpowered. Yet that is an entirely different discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    The map is not large and riding from lug to tr does not take long.
    By that argument, (since the map is not large) marching from Lugz to TR does not take long. Yet the truth is, all time is relevant in PvP. 5 minutes are long enough to decide many battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Away from map points, a toons ability to stay mounted in combat until it is interrupted is a perk that is over the top.
    To be frank, no. A mounted freep cannot fight; he can only be hit. Thus, it only helps if he is running away; not a qualification to make it "a perk that is over the top." It does not help a freep win battles; only run from ones he never began.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Directly comparing map points to the equation of march-horses is a deflection. Freeps would be no less able to ride to places ont eh map than they are now.
    I thought it a valid comparison, since we were referring to the mobility of each side. Freeps can move faster, but only continuously. Creeps move slower, but can begin that movement from a greater (7 versus 1) variety of distant points. creeps: 6 maps points + current position; freeps: current position

    I suppose this might be unexpected, but I agree with you: freeps should become instantly dismounted in combat. I just don't feel that the current system creates any great balance issues, at all.
    Last edited by Beast_of_War; Jun 06 2013 at 09:34 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Beast_of_War View Post
    I thought it a valid comparison, since we were referring to the mobility of each side. Freeps can move faster, but only continuously. Creeps move slower, but can begin that movement from a greater (7 versus 1 variety of distant points.) creeps: 6 maps points + current position; freeps: current position

    I suppose this might be unexpected, but I agree with you: freeps should become instantly dismounted in combat. I just don't feel that the current system creates any great balance issues, at all.
    Oh i respected where you were coming from for sure; just the key point being that dismounting in combat does not affect freep map mobility any more than the current system does.

    Its not really a balance issue as such, its about engaging with the enemy and the effect horses have being disproportionate.
    Last edited by Oldwiley; Jun 06 2013 at 09:39 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Beast_of_War View Post
    Maps give creeps instant access to distant points on the map, horses (+goats) require movement; give horses teleportation to points on the map or destroy all maps.

    That is it.

    Discuss.
    Maps have cool-downs, varying from 5 to 30 minutes, horses don't. You forgot to mention that very important point, as does every single freep who brings up creep maps in these forums...

    Additionally:

    All freeps enter the 'moors with a 62/68% speed horse, or really ought to by the time they are high enough lvl. No new creep enters the 'moors with any of the maps, they have to be grinded via PvE quests - 250 quests minimum for a full set (not including the grams one) - or bartered for using sigils (not really a viable option for newer creep players - or for most creep players in fact).

    This grind for maps puts new creeps at a disadvantage when moving around the 'moors especially for those players starting their first creep. It also means that any craid accepting low rank creeps becomes seriously restricted in moving around the map as a whole, as they are less able to use map points. Whereas a fraid with low ranks does not have this restriction. As freeps can still move anywhere on the map as a cohesive group using their horses which gives them a faster movement rate than the equilavent craid using march movement.

    I personally would be happy to see all maps gotten rid of (except maybe the grams/gv ones) if mounts were also no longer usable in the 'moors. Restrict both sides to foot movement of equal speed. However, that might make it dificult for the two sides (by which I am assuming there are both craid and fraid) to meet and fight as often as would be the case now. Especially if one side wanted to avoid a fight - perhaphs because of being outnumbered. Raid v raid fights would probably end quicker as it would also be more difficult for one or both sides to get people back to the fight quickly if rezzes were not available.

  10. #10
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    War-Steeds need to be allowed in Ettenmoors.

    Mounted PVP skills would be limited. High CDs on all skills and death on War-Steed results in a one hour lockout from summoning War horse.

    At the very least, War-Steed should be session play and get rid of the fail Rangers.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    March is disabled in combat, horses require an interrupt; dismount horses in combat or require an interrupt to disengage march.

    That is it.

    Discuss.
    The original idea was one side to have mobility over the map (with horses), and the other side to have maps pretty much all over the place. March came out of nowhere, with no alteration to the maps system...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    what of them? The sides are not mirrored, freeps have many advantages over creeps in other ways, maps are a creep perk.

    The general mobility away from map points is more the case in question.
    Well then by the logic "the sides are not mirrored" why should horses work the same way as march?

    I don't agree with this but I'm just repeating what you said.

    And I'm all for making March 162 speed just like horses, if it means maps are gone for good.

  12. #12
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    Keep in mind that creeps can also march through keeps and water, march has a shorter induction, and can be induced while moving.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskla View Post
    Keep in mind that creeps can also march through keeps and water, march has a shorter induction, and can be induced while moving.
    March is disabled to use in water (though ongoing March is still in effect).
    Creeps can use March in own keeps, but not enemy keeps unless NPCs are dead.




    And I'm all for making March 162 speed just like horses, if it means maps are gone for good.
    This I agree with. I'd love for March to work like horses, I know my creeps would happily give up maps for that.
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Jun 07 2013 at 11:24 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    March is disabled to use in water (though ongoing March is still in effect).
    You can jump while in water and cast march if you time it right

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Creeps can use March in own keeps, but not enemy keeps unless NPCs are dead.
    If someone is drop pulling the keep many times you can keep march on.

    Freeps are overall quite OP right now, but as someone who has played both sides extensively I would much rather have maps. I always have a map up close to where I need to go and there's little risk of having to ride through enemies if I need to be somewhere. Plus flanking is easier with maps. Also with all the time spent in the delving now it's easier to take bosses and quickly map somewhere important after. Dunno all just examples but I've just found from playing both sides (and only creep now) that maps help me out more.

  15. #15
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    Maps are far superior in Raid vs. Raid strategies as well as fast response time for call-outs. I found the maps on my Creeps to be far more useful than mounts on my Freeps. Both are great! But they should both remain as they are so that both sides stay unique.

  16. #16
    Yes maps are very useful.

    But that was not my point. Freeps would still be faster on their horses than march, mobility would not be effected, only the ability to use them to avoid combat once engaged. Freep mobility itself would not change.

  17. #17
    Horses are more useful when the fight is close and you need to get people back into the fight, such as TR being raided by creeps and freeps ride back to the keep in much less time.

    If lugs was under attack, it would take MUCH more time to mount a defense for the keep.

    And maps have VERY LONG cooldowns. Horses have none.

    Oh, and how far can a freep get around the map in 5 mins?

    Also have we forgotten the +20% runspeed horse buff? 188% runspeed freeps.

  18. #18
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    Remove mounts and give freeps maps, I want to be able to map to tr when we are at lug gy and a ninja is going on or vica versa at lug!

  19. #19
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    While I do a little freepside pvp I spend the vast majority of my time on creepside.

    Horses represent a major tactical advantage for combats. They all freeps to wait just out of sight and close the distance much faster than creeps. They also make is much harder for creeps to engage as they roam about the map.

    Maps give creeps a major strategic advantage if they have them. The ability to quickly move from one side of the map or to port past potential resistance is powerful. But the fact is that most creeps don't have all maps. Every raid that I have been in has to work around some number of people that don't have a map. There are really only a few places that we can count on to map to.


    If creeps all had immediate access to their maps then I would say that they almost even out. I would propose that the following occur. Increase March speed to 150% and give freeps access to maps. Make them different points on the map than creep map points. This makes mapping equivalent and leaves a small tactical advantage to the freeps.

  20. #20
    Creeps do need easier access to maps as I agree with Q it can be an issue when greenies have so few maps. There's no reason, for example, grothum quests shouldn't count towards isen maps and some of the quests like norbog chitin should have reduced turn in rates. It's been said for years though in multiple threads with zero dev interaction so doubt anything gets changed.

  21. #21
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    Also let's not forget how hard it is to get a map to a place that remains blue for a week or more. Isen maps are ridiculously hard to get as there are very few quests there. Grothum turn ins would help this immensely. I would also like to see at least one quest for each keep that you can get and turn in at a location that is always available. Killing the mayor is a great example of this.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beast_of_War View Post
    Maps give creeps instant access to distant points on the map, horses (+goats) require movement; give horses teleportation to points on the map or destroy all maps.

    That is it.

    Discuss.
    Or... take away maps altogether, wargs become goblins with the same skills they had as wargs, warg is now a mount for creeps and they get around the map the same as freeps. Spiders would need a different mechanic, heck they are uber fast now anyways...

    Discussed.
    [center]Irin r8 Hunter // Arngar r8 Burg // [b][color=red]Akthuri r15 LM[/color][/b] // Vishus r5 Captain[/center]

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    March is disabled in combat, horses require an interrupt; dismount horses in combat or require an interrupt to disengage march.

    That is it.

    Discuss.
    Disable march in keeps.
    Disable march when swimming.
    Give march a 2.0s induction, not usable while moving.

    But in all honestly i would be fine with removing maps and mounts from the area, giving freeps a skill similiar to march.
    Last edited by Daec; Jun 07 2013 at 04:49 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daec View Post
    Disable march in keeps.
    Disable march when swimming.
    Give march a 2.0s induction, not usable while moving.

    But in all honestly i would be fine with removing maps and mounts from the area, giving freeps a skill similiar to march.
    This would also be a good idea in terms of equalization. The only reason that I do not like it is that it does not help the two sides get together and fight. It also makes controlling the two rezzes incredibly powerful. And if you live on a server where one side always outnumbers the other then you are at a significant disadvantage.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Daec View Post
    Disable march in keeps.
    Disable march when swimming.
    Give march a 2.0s induction, not usable while moving.

    But in all honestly i would be fine with removing maps and mounts from the area, giving freeps a skill similiar to march.

    Tbh the last thing we need are a further reduction in the use of tactics, which is what removing mounts and maps would do. There are things needed to reduce the use of them for zerging as happens now, but removing them is the wrong way to go. Increasing zerging is how they probably will go though.

 

 
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