In all seriousness, I did address your point in my response here:
In all seriousness, I did address your point in my response here:
Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 04 2013 at 02:11 PM.
All I see when I read this thread is two educated people seeing who has the higher intellect. As amusing and off-topic it is some important points have been brought up.
- There is still no evidence to support the numbers given by the creator of this thread
- A minimum 2 minute parse would be far more effective as yes 60 seconds is considered burst when you consider a graph
- Showing the highest parse VS the average shows us nothing, you could have been simply lucky and got 20% devs
- Switching of sets and "clickies" should not be allowed as this diverts us from the normal situation
- Hunters are almost never able to use the burst DPS mentioned due to being in combat with low focus
- Fundamental things that has been ignored about hunter bust DPS is that they start with full focus for a start
- Most importantly even if screenshots are posted there is no evidence to prove other than the word of the poster what clickies he used, sets he swapped, if he aoed, if he had certain buffs, if he procd buffs by auto attacking the dummy first etc...
- Additionally can we truly compare these 2 classes like this? Ask yourself are you traited this way with the same gear always? If you answer no then you can't compare them because using abnormal testing for the normal situation is bad data, obviously.
Bottom line is all I see is someone made a post bound to provoke using a horrible comparison, several people took the bait and now he is feeding off that enjoying spitting on every single word of whichever individual you find most fruitful. Your failure to present data properly and attitude alone will render any findings in this thread useless, but I think we all know the creation of this thread was simply to practice your literate skills.
Obviously no AoE; I always parse at Stangard on the middle dummy looking at the fountain. So it's impossible to AoE anyways. Besides, I believe I would need to Trait 5 yellow and Improved Cleave to even think about AoE-ing my way to doing more than my sigle-target 5 red CBR DPS; and the low magnitude of my highest Remorseless hit on CA would show if I tried to trick people by Traiting yellow.
One thing that Farasilion stressed that you seem to not account for sufficiently is the fact that the 75 dummy tremendously favor Champions due to higher Crit chance. As I have said elsewhere, I cannot do more than Farasilion, for instance, on the 85 dummy. So even if I end up doing sizably more than the best Hunters on 75 dummy, it is not an accurate barometer of our respective sustained DPS. I chose the 75 dummy to parse only because 1) it is more popular dummy for people to parse for a number of reasons; and 2) I want to show how Hunters do far more burst DPS even when the environment favors the Champion. Had I chosen the 85 dummy, the burst gap would have been even greater.
Besides, your Hunter compatriot claimed he's done 6k 75 dummy DPS so maybe you should swap parsing notes with him. The fact that his far more seemingly "sensational" claim was not challenged is another reason why I am still befuddled that the 4900 Crit-luck parse has created so much news. But then maybe you think Hunters can do well over 10 percent of Champion DPS even in Crit-rich environment that favors Champions?
Sigh, back to the real Yelk.
Or, given that Shintagh has shown that, with my superior gear and healer support, 4900 is theoretically possible with Crit-luck, you are looking for other ways to discredit me? Looks like the only way you will agree that my parses are legit is if I make a movie--LOL, a higher burden of proof than you'd ask anyone else.
Why bother now?
For your information, plenty of folks on my server have seen me CBR parse, including obviously my healer and Farasilion. And no, I don't think they saw AoEs (I don't even know the auto-attcking dummy trick you mentioned). In fact, the last time someone didn't believe my 4500 CBR parse (best pre-Mirkwood boots), he asked me to see a sample because he said it was "impossible" (his name is Edrogia and he sometimes posts on the Champ forum). The first sample was a bit over 4k, and he didn't need to see more samples after that.
Do you want me to post screenshots (including gear that you may assume I don't even have) or not?
Typical Lotro thread:
- Epeen all around.
- No useful nor new information specially when RoR is already 6 months old and, regarding dps mechanics, Lotro is 6 years old.
- Several quotes from different arguments all put together to pretend the quoted person was saying something different than what he did.
- Continuous self-victimization (not sure this word exhists) to maybe.. gain sympathy for his/her own cause? I have no idea.
- And then, pointless arguing with nothing to do with this written in 1000 lines long texts which nobody really reads except those who want to prove they outsmart who wrote said posts.
Anyway, I lol'd a bit but, given that those involved in this fight are some of the most self-proclaimed epic players (and pretty much all think this of themselves now, last months' epeen has been sickening) I actually thought this would have some valuable content, if not for the original post, then maybe in the responses. It doesnt.
Elunwe Minstrel | Elunduil Hunter | Ellirin Champion | Micolo Burz |
I got 2.5k dps on a same dummy without going all hardcore on my cappy =P
You guys making me wanna roll a hunter and a champ, so I can show you all noobs where real dps is
Gear, Stats, Traits, and Rotation:
Okay, I was able to finally get in the game tonight for the first time all day and take some screenshots of both my Champion and Hunter's gear, stats, and Traits. I also tried to see if I can do more parses on my Champion to get close to 4900 again, but unfortunately no luck, especially with the stupendous lag I still have (but I never said 4900 was the norm). So I am just going to post whatever parses I've done the last few days on my Champion, along with an explanation of my gear and rotation--the latter of which may diverge from that of most top DPS Champions.
I do not want to talk more about my Hunter for the moment for two reason. First, contrary to my original intent, somehow the focus of the thread has become my Champion's (semi-) sustained DPS rather than my Hunter's burst DPS. Second, I am understandably getting sick of the direction of this thread and do not want to post much more and halving its subject matter is a prudent way to do that.
Perhaps my post will again be met with incomprehension and insults. But I agree that I still do owe a fuller presentation. And similarly, I do also have a responsibility as the originator of the thread to pull the thread back in a more educative or informative direction. While this may no longer be possible for most of my interlocutors here, I will be satisfied if it helps some folks. And I will try to limit myself to responding to game/class mechanics or at least non e-peen measuring queries.
I will, per heading of this post, start with Gear/stats/Traits/Rotation. Shintagh's post is a good springboard since it demonstrates how raiding Champions can have different approaches.
It also seems like Shintagh does not Trait Ferocious Strike, but I almost always use it when it is off CD as it is the highest damage DW skill per use according to my parses. I find Brutal Strike, even when Legacied, appallingly low in terms of damage and not worth wasting precious Clobber on. So I need something to dump Fervour on when Remorseless Strike is on CD anyways.
Finally, I Trait Improved Rend these days. I used to under-estimate its effectiveness, but Tarenius' post here convinced me and made me incorporate it into my rotation: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...Appears!/page3
(It also helps that I have two class gold Bracelets that increased Rend bleed damage, as I am obsessive maximizer.)
I should also say that I have different Traits for pure single target burn fights (whether dummy test or single-target DPS races like FF Challenge and Acid Zerg) and regular instance/Raid Traits. Below then is a screenshot of my single-target DPS traits--along with my stats and gear.
The only thing exceptional here may be the presence of Deep Strikes, but I only use this on dummy parses and sometimes PvP, as Merciful Strike does nothing on a dummy since it requires mobs to fall below half health.
Gear-wise, as I said before, I have all DPS-related class golds other than the Fornost Axe. The key piece here is obviously the Mirkwood boots that has 16 percent Crit Multiplier, which figures in massively in a high-Crit environment, such as the 75 dummy parse. Armor-wise, I obviously use the 2-piece Hytbold Berserker set for the Fervour return upon Remorseless crit; it is quite over-powered, and its over-powered-ness may be why the Greater Erebor sets are so bad as a compensation. For the other two pieces, I have elected to use the Greater Erebor Berserker set instead of the Hytbold Storm set. Again, I do not use Blade Wall nor need more Fervour. The Greater Erebor Berseker 2-piece bonus is absolutely laughable. On a 75 dummy parse, it typically does less than 0.5 percent of my overall damage--which pales to what its Hunter armor counterparts do. But I decided to take the minor improvements provided by the small bleed and stat boost on it over the completely useless Hytbold Storm set. Finally, another piece of noteworthy gear is the much under-estimated Wyrmfire necklace--whose proc can be rather amazing in a low DPS environment as the proc completely by-passes mitigations--though not very useful on a 75 dummy parse.
Stats are self-explanatory other than I emphasize they change quite frequently as I tend to play with a lot of armor and LI Legacy/Relic combinations. But the basic approach is 10.2k Crit to reach a quasi-Crit Cap with Captain buff and Vicious Strikes and the rest into PM. I obviously do not "Morale hog," and I am under 7k Morale and was at around 6k during level 75 days.
LI-wise, I think my election of a DW set-up over a 2H set-up would need no explanation, as it has been extensively demonstrated on various Champion threads to be far superior over its 2H counterpart. And I think my endorsement is rather telling, because in RoI days I was the loudest advocate of "2H is better" camp. But gear and mechanics changes in RoR put DW ahead by far.
LI Legacies-wise, I suppose I may be in the minority in not having the AoE damage major. But I have separate AoE LIs for that, and my main LIs are strictly for single-target DPS. I like to specialize and optimize.
Finally, LI Relics-wise, I keep switching Dev/Mastery and Dev/Crit Relics around to fit the 10.2k Crit paradigm with gear changes. Moreover, I have also done this three times in the last few days trying to compare how mastery gains compare with Crit magnitude gains--with not much useful information so far.
I will jump to the parses themselves and what I do in the next post.
**Note: This post has been editedlater with more recent screenshots! **
Okay, I always parse 75 dummies at Stangard, because it is quieter and less laggy than either Galtrev or Snowbourne.
The way I do CBR parse is to have my kin Minstrel Tarelarien heal me from fully tiered up 20 percent CBR buff. With a healer, as Shintagh has mentioned, I never have to worry about wasting precious Fervour or time fumbling for survival buttons.
As for how I register parses, one of the biggest banes of dummy parsing is the lack of synchronization between the time you stop attacking and the time CombatAnalysis stops. Sometimes you can lose as much as 5-10 seconds, reducing your DPS dramatically. There are two ways to overcome this problem. First, you can screenshot immediately when you stop attacking. I do not like this method, as I do not have the PrtSc button key or mouse-bound, and it is way far from where my hands usually rest on the keyboard. In fact, it distracts from DPS-ing. The other way to do it is to have either the mob or you die and have the CA stop relatively rapidly (within a second or two). Thankfully, CBR means I can choose to die and focus on DPS-ing until I die. So I CBR parse by asking the heal to stop healing at certain time and DPS till I die (we have usually figured out a way to do this in a way that I tend to die within three seconds of the 1 minute mark--though sometimes we overshoot).
So in the 4900 parse I mentioned, I was at 4900 at 1 minute and went up to 5k a second or two thereafter, but the relatively longer lag between when I died and CA stopped reduced the final registered DPS to 4700. Unfortunately, I forgot to screenshot immediately after I died and realized this right before I logged after Hytbold dailies looking over that day's screenshots. So you cannot see my position, and, more critically, you cannot see the second window with more important details of that parse which I can somehow only access if I activate the lock on the first CA window (not sure why this is on my Champion only).
Now given that Yelk has even questioned Vodomir's parses regarding his supposedly high DW Remorseless devs, I knew that this justifiably may not be taken as a legitimate screenshot by those who do not know me. (But really, I would have taken more care to screenshot everything about that parse if I knew it would cause such a firestorm.) So here's another parse from that likely would have hit 5k range as well but for a bad lag whose cause I am having trouble pinpoint in recent weeks. Here the screenshot is in mid-parse, and you can see every buff I have on. I used every gear buff and individual consumable buff, per Yelk's criterion on this thread:
The parse is 4817 in mid-motion; it was around 5300 at 45 seconds and really started nose-diving with the lag spike I had thereafter.
Obviously, you can't AoE in Stangard since there is only 1 dummy.
So the 5k neighborhood number obviously requires crit luck but it's not something that cannot be replicated at all.
Now can we talk about Hunter burst DPS?
Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 29 2013 at 12:58 AM.
Poor RKs. If I was decked out on my RK I might manage a 4k parse. Kills me to see that champs attack 3x faster than my RK; 4.5x faster if I'm not auto-attacking. I would trade my lovely 16k ECs for a much faster attack duration. Champs and Hunters aren't worried bout RK dps...buff me please
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I don't know how many attacks I'd get while taking all of these things out. I suspect something like 130? Maybe less? Let me find out (might leave the necklace on, because most Champions do use it).
How much do end game-geared RKs do? I have a good idea of what Champions, Hunters, and Burglars do; I haven't got a slight idea of what RKs do. The usual explanation I get is that they don't even parse on dummies since their DPS depends too much on bleeds. And what of burst DPS? Would like to see a Great River spider test, if dummies just don't work for RKs. Something like this where Hunters again prove their vastly superior burst DPS (but Lancel doesn't have CBR on, though that is canceled out by the fact that Gabredil doesn't have a tank taunt/hold the spider, so his DPS was actually quite depressed due to spending some of that fight in melee; either way the screenshots are several months old, so I am sure both gentlemen can do more now with superior gear):
Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 05 2013 at 06:23 AM.
1. Shintagh has already showed that he did 4200 and that our 15 percent gap can be explained simply by the fact that I had a healer and superior equipment.
2. You are really giving too much ground needlessly by saying that you will "confirm" Champions do more DPS if Champions can indeed reach that level for a number of reasons.
A. As I have said multiple times, 75 dummy parse is not representative of our classes' respective DPS, because of the higher number of Crits, and how high Crit environment disproportionately benefits Champions (though I suppose it is representative of "Burg Zerg" scenarios: e.g. Varron says Chily's hit a bit over 6k in BfE t1 in Burg Zerg, and I am sure I can easily do that in the same set-up, and I am fairly sure Hunters cannot).
B. Other Hunters may be able to reach 4900 anyways. I know Farasilion could do the 4300 you did prior to even getting her class armor and U10 equipment; and I think Gabredil could do as well around the same time frame (they did the same 85 dummy DPS). And we have the already referenced Varron's 6k-plus ("average," not outlier) claim--something I won't completely dismiss given more swap gear options available to you that enhance burst DPS.
With auto-attacks and only 34k mastery and 11k crit I was around 3k dps. Average attack was roughly 2900 and around 65 attacks per minute. Crit + dev was the 50-60% range consistently. Perfect imagery was used. I don't use hope/scrolls, food, or damage perks on dummies. Without auto-attacks I was at 47 attacks a minute and ~300 dps less if I remember correctly.
It doesn't work to test burst dps on dummies. I need time to build attunement and get all my procs up. For stuff like flights T2 RKs have great burst for killing summoners/berserkers but I feel hunters can kill those just as fast if not faster given the hunter vs RK range difference.
Depends on the situation.
Hunters are the best ones for heavy DPS on single boss fights. They have the best DPS on single targets .
But in fights with multiple targets? Champions, no discussion there.
But let me ask you this :
In 1vs1 .... Hunter vs Champion. Who wins ? :P . I already know the answer, but let me see what you think.
and for pvp . My warg loves to eat hunters for dinner.
So...hunters have the finests DPS, but if they are alone fighting a mob with HUMAN INTELLIGENCE, well ...thats another thing isnt it ?
So, I read all the fun posts in this thread and I do have to say that a champion doing 5k in 60 seconds doesn't really suprise me lol. Back in the day when farming bfe t1 over and over again we would always use to see who has the best parse. Chily was peaking at 9k parses with no real gear and hitting 32-34k remorseless strikes where as my hunter peaked at around 6k only. With the new gear and everything I can see a champ doing a 5k and maybe even the best champ I know chily doing 6k in a minute with swappy clickies and what not. Now for a champ doing more damage in a 60s parse it will always be more due to having CBR and Controlled Burn lasting much longer then Burn Hot, also using Fight On if you get the chance will add way more outgoing damage then a hunter. Champions also have alot of Crit Multiplier much more then a hunter after Burn Hot goes away. So I really wouldn't call 1 minute a real sustain.. Although nothing in this game last much longer then a minute or doesn't allow you to have quick burst DPS using oathbreakers or actually fighting something for over 3-5minutes like in ToO. I wouldn't say BFE t2c would be a real fight to test dps considering you can't keep attacking even in the way S&A did it with the 10% marks didn't allow pure dps to be used on the bosses.
Anyways, you can't argue with this because champs CDs are better then Hunters when it comes to a 1 Minute Parse, and you can't argue that chily puts out crazy numbers Yelk. So in the end I believe the OP in the 5k parse but would I come to say that a champ has better sustain? No, take the parse to 3-5 minutes where as a hunter will come out on top. If I trait 5r/2B I could probably sustain 4.5k-5k for a minute with double dev pots and some gear swapping but my gear isn't even that amazing. Though I wouldn't be able to do this as I uninstalled the game because of the lack of enjoyment it brings me to grind the same content 100000 times for one piece of gear that never drops. Anyways thats what I have to say about this topic. Keep arguing though, it brings me excitement in my boring life.
I would have been okay with this but seeing as I got called out because you posted this:
Last edited by YesMaam; Jun 05 2013 at 09:09 PM.
So yes if you want to delete your toon be my guest, I don't make things up on the internet because there is no need for it. I don't even play this game anymore why would I care for what you or anyone thinks. Come on Yelk, even you can be wrong. Just think of the days when you were laughing at hunters for using precision then you all of a sudden start using it. Miscalculations happen even if you want to think that you are right. So go on doing what you do but just because someone does something better then you doesn't mean they are lying about it lol.
Of course I can be wrong, I'm wrong all the time - I'm human. I have seen you play in the moors unable to DPS to my level and I have seen FRAPS videos of you in action in raids that you have not been leading (in other words you are/should be focused) and your skill rotation and DPS level was anything but impressive). Given this is just my personal opinion of course it has a good chance to be faulty however if we look at the statistics of no other hunter claiming to even reach over 5k on a dummy parse and you making a 6k claim it seems natural that I call wolf. You say I could maybe do 4.5-5k and then say you do 6k+ 80% of the time. A all time lucky person with the best gear might be able to get 6k once but 80% of the time? If even part of your sentence is incorrect it leaves me little room to believe for any of it.
Just for fun I've started a post on the hunter forums to see who can come closest to your numbers. I hope some decent players bite. I look forward to seeing the results.
Last edited by YesMaam; Jun 05 2013 at 10:11 PM.
you could try turtle if you wanted. you might die quick but if you could grab even just a mini you'll live for long enough. trying to kill turtle solo by dpsing on warden can do a good 2mins doing very little heals
Runekeepers have the longest initial build up time of any class, even when using Enamels. We cannot open a fight with huge burst, but we can continuously recycle that burst and use it throughout a fight. Honestly, if you're looking to test Runekeeper burst, i'd suggest building up attunement on the training dummy, waiting till it resets and then hitting an enamel and going at it. That would be a relatively accurate representation of our burst during a fight. I would, but I don't have a Lightning build.
Fire Runekeepers have very little burst, the sustained dps is what you get, with a small hike in single target dps when you use Smouldering Wrath.
Turbine needs to give us dummies that don't reset every 15 seconds so we can get a more accurate view of dps.
Gruid-Level 65 Burglar. Trebon-Level 65 Minstrel. Foilfang-Level 60 Hobbit Warden. Stiric-Level 56 Man Champion.
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