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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    I don't think BfE T1 is an appropriate testing ground. There CBR permits Champions to ignore stuns and continuously DPS; Hunters have to stop and step around stun areas. This fight pretty much uniquely favor Champions over Hunters.
    Sorry to quote my own response, but I need to add one more important point to my response to Varron that I forgot about. It's actually one of the major issues that I want to pursue in subsequent posts in the planned "series" before this thread got derailed, and I got distracted.

    Just as BfE parse in particular is an inappropriate comparison due to CBR canceling out the stuns, group DPS parses are even more inappropriate in general, as the dynamics is entirely different. Group buffs predominantly boost Champion DPS more so than they do Hunters. For instance, we have higher Crit magnitudes and skills/effects triggered by Crit; further, we benefit more from Attack Duration buffs, since none of our attacks require inductions (so there is no point at which we are doing nothing but inducting).

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I notice three important things this thread brings up

    1. hunters micro-burst dps is way better than champ burst dps
    2. hunters and champs both do great dps (aoe and single target).
    3. champs have to take more damage/move/be at risk more to perform their role.


    I also agree with the guy who has the longest post I've ever seen on these forums about this: 5 parses does not a conclusion make. But it can still hint at a shady truth.

    And one minute does not even come close to true sustained dps. One minute is still considered "burst". If you want to know true sustained dps you either parse for 5+ minutes so you can see dps without cooldowns.

    you can also average all your 1 minute parses (even the baingrist mainhand ones ) if you want to know what true burst dps is (rather than taking the highest parse).
    Thank you for calmly stating what I wanted to but could not in my emotionalism

    Also, What the heck is it testing dps against lvl 75 dummies? I only test my dps against on-level dummies, which would currently be the lvl 85 ones. I don't care what problems you have with the lvl 85 dummies, the very, very first step you take in accurately measuring dps is to test it against an on-level target.
    [COLOR=Lime][SIZE=1]other favorite middle-earth related games: The One Ring RPG, published by Cubicle 7; LotR: The Card Game, published by FFG[/SIZE][/COLOR]

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fasin View Post
    Runekeepers have the longest initial build up time of any class, even when using Enamels. We cannot open a fight with huge burst, but we can continuously recycle that burst and use it throughout a fight. Honestly, if you're looking to test Runekeeper burst, i'd suggest building up attunement on the training dummy, waiting till it resets and then hitting an enamel and going at it. That would be a relatively accurate representation of our burst during a fight. I would, but I don't have a Lightning build.

    Fire Runekeepers have very little burst, the sustained dps is what you get, with a small hike in single target dps when you use Smouldering Wrath.
    I see. Still, I see some exceptional RKs stealing aggro from exceptional Hunters in Sambrog. So there must be some burst there? I know that the Hunters were going bat-crazy from the get-go in such situations.

    For instance, what would RK do on a Great River spider test? If not 5k-plus like Farasilion or Gabredil certainly more than Champions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fasin View Post

    Turbine needs to give us dummies that don't reset every 15 seconds so we can get a more accurate view of dps.
    Amen.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_toad View Post
    Thank you for calmly stating what I wanted to but could not in my emotionalism

    Also, What the heck is it testing dps against lvl 75 dummies? I only test my dps against on-level dummies, which would currently be the lvl 85 ones. I don't care what problems you have with the lvl 85 dummies, the very, very first step you take in accurately measuring dps is to test it against an on-level target.
    I tested on a 75 dummy for two reasons:

    1. For a multitude of reasons, it is the more popular parse dummy. So people are more familiar with the numbers found in the 75 dummy than its 85 counterpart.

    Further, your claim that is presents a more accurate picture is a bit debatable, given that the mitigations/Crit Defense on it is disproportionately higher than anything you find in actual non-raid boss encounters.

    2. I wanted to show, among other things, Hunters do far more burst than Champions even in conditions that greatly favor Champions (75 dummy parses favor Champions, because we benefit more in a high Crit environment).

    In retrospect, I should have tested on 85 dummies. I would have gotten a far lower comparative number there, and it would have conformed to Yelk and other Hunters' cherished belief that Champions cannot single-target DPS on par with Hunters. Then we could have simply moved on to the other issues that I wanted to discuss in later posts--rather than dissipate my energies dealing with trolls.
    Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 06 2013 at 02:18 PM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    I see. Still, I see some exceptional RKs stealing aggro from exceptional Hunters in Sambrog. So there must be some burst there? I know that the Hunters were going bat-crazy from the get-go in such situations.

    For instance, what would RK do on a Great River spider test? If not 5k-plus like Farasilion or Gabredil certainly more than Champions?



    Amen.
    Lightning Runekeepers (assuming enamel) take 5-7 seconds to achieve maximum attunement, not too horrible. The real issue is with the proc buffs we rely on, too often you won't get them up and running until 15-20 seconds into a fight.

    Fire Runekeepers are much worse, it takes 17-20 seconds to stack all dots and achieve maximum dps, depending on whether or not you bought the improved version of Scathing Mockery (a skill upgrade that was actually a downgrade for single target dps).

    A spider test would be useless for a Fire Runekeeper. After such a long ramp up time, you've lost so much damage there is no competition for any form of burst. Any parse less than two minutes duration really is wasted. Out of curiosity, I have attempted to parse on a training dummy (level 75), I gave it 3 or 4 attempts, my average was around 2.6k. Highest was 2.8k if I started at maximum attunement. Just remember a massive amount of damage is lost due to dot wipes, and my gear is mediocre (I have no gold class items, despite 450+ assorted instance runs)

    A Lightning Runekeeper could parse on the spider, but the entire parse would be based off of how fast you procced your buffs. (mainly the 10% crit chance). Still though, i'd be interested to see what a Lightning Runekeeper can achieve in comparison to other classes.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    Auto-attacks-only?! I don't think any of my DPS classes can even hit 1500 just with auto-attacks. Do RK auto-attacks function differently?

    Ok, what about testing it on something like the Great River spiders--as I referenced above?
    Naa I meant I used auto-attacks along with regular rotation. RK auto-attacks typically aren't feasible in Flights/Smaug and BFE reinforcements. The "only" was for my 34k tact mastery because many hunters and champs were stating they were around 40k physical mastery. I'll give the Great River spiders a shot n see how I do.

    This was my 10s burst parse on the big spider. Ignore the scathing mockery tool-tip. That is just where my mouse happened to be when I went to click the PrtScn button. DPS was only 3,300 and 9 outta 11 attacks were crits or devs
    Last edited by timmyloo22546; Jun 06 2013 at 07:04 PM.

  7. #57
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    This is what I got with Fire

    Only had time for one attempt, I could see getting it up to 3.4 or maybe 3.5k at the highest (I messed up and didn't use Essence of Flame for the burst). I probably won't bother doing anymore on the spiders though, since a parse that short isn't worth much for a dot based class.

    If a Fire Runekeeper gets all of his dots stacked on a target, he can burst 5-7k dps in a raid situation for about 7 seconds. But it's not as valuable as it sounds, considering the time it takes to stack all the dots (although you can pull it out every 45 seconds). You don't see that on the spider because of the massive ramp up time, I was doing 900-1400 dps for the first ~8 seconds.

    We are viable dpsers for any fight with a duration >one minute, as long as it's not single target OR we don't have to constantly switch targets. It's just that relying so heavily on damage over time effects with such insanely long durations is so painful, there are very few fights where we actually reach our full potential for single target dps, and none where we reach full aoe potential (when you're in an aoe situation, things die so fast your dots don't get a chance to stack).

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fasin View Post
    This is what I got with Fire

    Only had time for one attempt, I could see getting it up to 3.4 or maybe 3.5k at the highest (I messed up and didn't use Essence of Flame for the burst). I probably won't bother doing anymore on the spiders though, since a parse that short isn't worth much for a dot based class.

    If a Fire Runekeeper gets all of his dots stacked on a target, he can burst 5-7k dps in a raid situation for about 7 seconds. But it's not as valuable as it sounds, considering the time it takes to stack all the dots (although you can pull it out every 45 seconds). You don't see that on the spider because of the massive ramp up time, I was doing 900-1400 dps for the first ~8 seconds.

    We are viable dpsers for any fight with a duration >one minute, as long as it's not single target OR we don't have to constantly switch targets. It's just that relying so heavily on damage over time effects with such insanely long durations is so painful, there are very few fights where we actually reach our full potential for single target dps, and none where we reach full aoe potential (when you're in an aoe situation, things die so fast your dots don't get a chance to stack).
    What do you speculate a Lightning RK would've done on that spider? And any estimates on 75 or 85 dummies?

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    What do you speculate a Lightning RK would've done on that spider? And any estimates on 75 or 85 dummies?
    I'd guess somewhere around 3,310.9 dps . No really, a better geared Lightning Runekeeper won't go much farther than that on the spider, maybe as high as 3.8k max. Askir said he only has 34k Mastery, but the reality is there are so few dps Runekeepers you're not likely to find someone very far past that, although 40k is possible.

  10. #60
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    Anaaaaad another of these threads. I look at it this way:

    I am no way the best skilled hunter, nor will I ever be. I do not have uber gears, not even full Hytbold set yet. Have always ran blue. Currently have 10K crit, 36K PM, just under 2700 agility. Dev magnitude crit relics.

    While running blue traits, I keep this spec from reds always: Swift and True, plus Hail of Arrows (+Rain of Arrows crit rating and 25% Rain of Arrows crit multiplier), plus maxed out max AoE targets legacy, plus slot Arrow Storm.

    I have also never run combat parses but I do know that on average anytime I use these skills, I ALWAYS end up spamming 11-15 crits back to back, literally spamming the skill. The little numbers flying off the heads of ALL mobs I hit range between 2k-5k each – be that in Sammy, BfE, OE, etc. Times 10 mobs... you do the math. I doubt anyone would think that not sustainable.

    Do I care if a champ does more dmg than me? Nope. Do I open with HS? Never. When I do use it and get dev crit, (again traited blue not reds, no buffs, no burn hot use even) it hits for about 15K, sometimes 18K, once 22K.

    Point being – apples and oranges ppl. Each are awesome in their own right. Can we get over the epin already?
    Last edited by Souldan; Jun 10 2013 at 12:30 PM. Reason: spelling

  11. #61
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    Hello,

    I would like to re-visit this thread again, because I believe it deals with a topic that is somewhat important and widely misunderstood. While I am not sure if I even remember now the various aspects of it that I wanted to deal with in a series of posts, I am going to at least give a brief bullet points style presentation. I also thought it may be better to present new data from 85 Snowbourne dummies than 75 dummies--in spite of my rather incredible lag there (the evidence of which you will see on one of my Champion parses)--because 1) it was understandably pointed out that that was a more accurate representation of the DPS picture, and 2) my outlier Champion parse on a 75 Stangard dummy (which I emphasized was an outlier) attracted more attention than it should have and derailed the discussion altogether.

    So I hope people can be open-minded and at least read this post with some care. And if you still want a short version, it's this sentence: "In short, literally any average Hunter can out-DPS the best Champion for 10-13 seconds: So pulling aggro first after a Champion's Challenge or Guardian's Challenge means absolutely nothing."

    But first, let me summarize what I wanted to originally convey, and how people misunderstood my intentions.

    In contrasting the DPS parses of my extremely well-geared Champion and less well-geared/skilled Hunter, I was not trying to say that Champions out-DPS Hunters. In fact, I was not at all interested in who does more DPS. Instead, I wanted to show that the DPS mechanics of two classes are fundamentally different, with Champion DPS being a relatively flat line over-time, and Hunter DPS having a mammoth early peak due to its outrageous "burst" and declining thereafter. Roughly speaking, it appears to me that a Champion's 10 second burst is at best 20 percent higher than his 60 second DPS, whereas a Hunter 10 second burst can easily be twice or more of his 60 second DPS.

    Now one need not be a rocket scientist to understand how this stupendous burst DPS gap between a Champion and a Hunter may drive the perception that an equally stupendous "sustained" DPS gap exists as well between the two classes. In fact, many Hunters--who are not even Raid-quality Hunters--have told me they always out-DPS Champions purely because they "get aggro first." Indeed, the original post was written in large part because I got sick and tired of such ignorant comments.

    Now some folks here have said that the burst DPS gap I talk about is common knowledge, and that I am not raising any "new" topic. I have two responses. First, you would be surprised how many players--even experienced Raiders--confuse "burst" damage and "sustained" DPS. This thread is in part proof of that. Second, I do not think even experienced Raiders realize how large the gap is. The 10 second burst gap is not 10-20 percent or in that neighborhood; extrapolating from my Hunter's burst DPS onto what top forum Hunters can do, I would expect possibly 100 percent. In short, literally any average Hunter can out-DPS the best Champion for 10-13 seconds: So pulling aggro first after a Champion's Challenge or Guardian's Challenge means absolutely nothing.

    Next, there were some comments to the effect that I was skewing the results in favor of Champions by parsing on 75 dummies instead of their 85 counterparts. A few points. First, I chose 75 dummies more out of convenience: I lag less in Stangard than Snowbourn; and most folks parse on 75 dummies anyways, so the numbers associated with those dummies are more familiar. Second, as Farasilion pointed out, choosing a ground that favors Champions actually makes my point stronger, because it shows even in Champion-friendly environments, the Hunter burst is massively higher. Third, I do not think 75 dummy parses are completely irrelevant. While they do not represent solo DPS as well, they likely represent on-level Raid DPS better than 85 dummy parses, since DPS will be higher in Raids due to a variety of DPS-enhancing buffs and de-buffs.

    Finally, some folks objected to the small sample size of my parses. While I acknowledge that that is indeed the case, I do not think that defect is so crippling for the present purpose. Again, my main data set is the burst DPS parse comparison: And my Hunter can reach easily re-producible 10 second numbers (6k on 75 dummy basically every other try; and 3k on 85 dummy likewise; the outlier numbers are of course higher) that my Champion can never ever dream of approaching--even if I were to parse until Second Coming.

    Now back to the new data. I again did 3 error-free 60 and 10 second 85 parses. (I did Captain parses as well, the results of which was shocking--but that's for another day). As I mentioned, I had some packet loss; and you will see it on one of the Champion screenshot, and I could probably do better on a better day. All 3 Champion parses were around 2-2100 for 60 seconds, and 10 seconds were same except 1 2500 outlier. On Hunter, also all 3 were around 1500-1600, and 10 seconds were 3-4k. I present screenshots of the top values, except I present 2 60 second parses, because the top one lagged badly, and I am shown to be alive when I am in fact dead.

    I also screenshotted the parses a bit differently this time. As you will see, I bound my Razor Naga button #1 to PrintScreen, so 1) I can get a more precise DPS reading; and 2) there are no questions about funny buffs.

    You've seen my Champion build; here is my Hunter. She's beautiful if not so competent! Since the original post, she's gotten a class gold, but it's not one of the Crit multiplier golds. I use the Bowmaster Greater Erebor set, as I can't keep up with the HS proc on the Huntsman counterpart:



    Her best 60 second parse out of 3 tries:



    Her best 10 second parse out of 3 tries:



    --continued on the next post due to image limit--

  12. #62
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    --continued from the prior post--

    My Champion's best 60-second parse out of 3 tries (but you can't see the buffs I had, because the screen showed me as alive when I was in fact dead):



    My Champion's 2nd best 60-second parse out of 3 tries (this one shows what buffs I had):



    My Champion's best 10 second parse out of 3 tries:



    Now, going forward, I would like to see 10 second parses from the very best DPS Hunters so we can make a more appropriate comparison. I suspect 5k 10 second parse is not out of the question. But even my Hunter's 4k is absolutely impossible for my Champion to reach, and I do not even think 3k is possible.

    So some issues that I wanted to talk about in the future, given this burst gap between the top two DPS classes:

    -A Hunter start burst cannot be out-aggroed by tanks except via force taunts. So either the Hunter better not burst or the tank must be a Guardian and have a 23-second force taunt available.

    -No Champ can Fervour tank anything if a competent Hunter starts with an all-out burst. I recall this discussion on Champion's forum during FF Challenge, and the numbers I am imagining that a Gabrediel or a Farasilion can do means that even a BB, and two Champion Ebbs cannot put the Champion ahead after a 10-second Champion's Challenge runs out.

    -Raid leader should absolutely ignore who gets more (early) aggro when it comes to determining who is the best DPS-er in the kin/alliance and therefore determining the Raid set-up and who gets BB. If you are curious, ask them to run a parse for an encounter that approximates the current encounter in terms of duration.

    -For the record, here is my very tentative view on how Champion-Hunter DPS compare. In RoI, it was a clear cut lead for Champions on single-target for everything but burst DPS. In RoR, Hunter DPS gear is so superior to its Champion counterpart (forgot to screenshot how little the Greater Erebor Berseker set does again) that I believe Champions trail Hunters even in "sustained" DPS solo. (For instance, 2100 I have here on 85 dummy was already reached by Farasilion and Gabrediel before they got most of their class golds.) I think the only clear-cut Champion edge is held in a "Burg Zerg" type of high-Crit environment like this where the disproportionate benefit of AD and Crit buffs put Champion over the edge (before Hunters say they've done better in that fight, please understand that this was 3 months ago, in a PuG, and I had to hold off DPS-ing for at least 10 seconds in the beginning due to aggro/positioning problems that the tank had):




    -There was surely more, but I am kinda sleepless today!

    Edit:

    -How could I have forgotten? Champion burst DPS has to get better, as the current state is simply way too un-balanced.
    Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 22 2013 at 10:05 AM.

  13. #63
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    Just going to update this thread with more interesting screenshots:

    First, the 5k neighborhood number is replicable--albeit with a lot of tries--and I likely would have done so on this parse but for a serious lag I've been having ever since I simultaneously got a new computer and a new router (I can't figure out what the issue is really):



    4817 mid-motion, and it was around 5300 at around 45 second mark and started seriously nose-diving when the lag hit.

    Kunidana from Brandywine (poster Shintagh) said I'd need 40 percent or so Dev on Remorseless, but as I rebutted earlier, that is not the case--though I am not going to deny 73 percent Crit/Dev on Remorseless is really high (but I never denied that Crit-luck was involved; but on every extremely high parse there is Crit-luck):



    Finally, as promised before, here is how awful the Greater Erebor Berserker 2-piece bonus is: The dot adds a laughable 0.6 percent to your DPS.



    What is more pathetic is that the 4-piece bonus is arguably worse, as a crit-capped Champion with the 2 set Hytbold Berserker bonus who knows how to cycle through Fervour granting skills properly will NEVER be lacking in Fervour. Instead, the issue is not having any big DPS skills off CD to spend the extraneous Fervour on. So the 4 piece bonus that gives the next Remorseless to cost 0 Fervour really is almost no bonus at all.

    Compare this joke of a set bonus to what is offered by either the Bowmaster set bonuses or the Huntsman set bonuses for the Hunter. You then get a sense that either the folks in charge of itemization are utterly incompetent or are intentionally going out of their way to depress Champion DPS (I can also point to the Rohan barter ring, the class golds, and many other itemization examples).
    Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 29 2013 at 04:28 AM.

 

 
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