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  1. #1
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    Hunter v. Champion DPS Mechanics Comparison: Sprinter v. Marathoner?

    I designed and performed an experiment last night to show how Hunters and Champions DPS differently, because it appears to me that even extremely experienced, well-informed LotRO Raiders are remarkably uninformed when it comes to the fundamental differences regarding how the two most potent DPS classes in the game work.

    The chief, most widely spread, misunderstanding in particular is this: Many assume that the easily noticeable “burst” DPS edge that Hunters possess automatically means that they have a higher “sustained” DPS as well relative to Champions. Yet while this may indeed be true post-Update 9 due to the superior DPS gear available to Hunters relative to Champions, it was emphatically not so from RoI up to Update 9. During that period, Champions had a clear edge in sustained DPS over Hunters (conceded by the two best-parsing Hunters I have seen on the official LotRO forum, Farasilion from my server and Gabredil from Sirannon); and it may still not be the case. Simply put, my thesis is this: A Hunter’s burst DPS is so disproportionately and misleadingly huge that it obscures how they perform in non-burst situations.

    I hope my thread will then at least begin the conversation that is needed to serve several necessary functions: Deflate the unwarrantedly large ego of some Hunters, guide the decision-making process of would-be Raid leaders in selecting appropriate DPS line-ups for particular encounters, and, finally, help groups—in particular Hunters and tanks—recognize and thereby prepare to manage or prevent the aggro generated by Hunters who prefer to “front load” their damage.

    Before I describe the experiment itself, let me explain what got me thinking about this issue even more of late, as well as the mechanics explanation of why the Hunter initial burst DPS is so huge.

    A few days ago, I was running Fornost Earth wing for the Champion class gold drop, and the two Hunters in the group kept repeatedly grabbing aggro on the last boss when my opening 10-second Challenge ran out. This prompted one of the Hunters to say that, among other things, Hunters “always do more DPS” than Champions and thus that a Hunter should always have Blade Brother over a Champion. I was initially rather annoyed (as much worse things were said about my supposedly low DPS and other things in that conversation), but I came to the realization that I ought not berate that particular Hunter’s ignorance so much as both claims advanced by the Hunter represent conventional wisdom among the less informed.

    But a 10 second, opening DPS snapshot does not represent the whole picture, as the Hunter’s initial burst DPS is so stupendous—and frankly outrageous. Consider the skills employed by a Hunter who prefers to open with a big burst at the start of a fight from a pure “theory-crafting” perspective. A typical Raid Hunter can easily possess extra 25 percent Critical Chance, 50 percent Critical Multiplier, and 50 percent Damage for 5 seconds (Improved Focus, Traited and Legacied Burn Hot, supplemented by the Erebor set) and a further 25 percent Critical Multiplier and 50 percent Damage for 20 seconds—which can be increased further by non-level equipment! In contrast, the only viable “burst” class buff that a Champion possesses Controlled Burn—which is a paltry 5 percent Attack Duration and 5 percent Damage.

    (All this is simply unbalanced, though that is a different issue altogether.)

    As a result, even a below average Raiding Hunter should be able to easily out-DPS even the best Champions for 10 second bursts in theory—which my experiment demonstrates.

    Now, here is the particular of the experiment. I wanted to compare the burst and (semi-) sustained DPS of my Champion (the top parsing DPS Champion on the server) and my rarely played Hunter (average Raid Hunter at best). Of course, given that my Champion is far better experienced and equipped than my Hunter, this is not a fair test of whether a Champion or a Hunter does more sustained DPS. But instead I wanted to show the burst DPS edge that even my unexceptional Hunter holds over my very exceptional Champion. And the burst gap was even larger than I expected!

    So without further ado, let me report the details. I performed 5 60 second and 10 second parses each on both my Champion and Hunter on the Stangard 75 dummy to measure burst and (semi-sustained) DPS. I chose 5 parses each, because 5 is enough to get at least 1 decent parse and not so many that I’d get a “once-in-a-lifetime” outlier parse.

    Stats-wise, Champion unbuffed is 2957 Might, 40.6k Physical Mastery, and 10k flat Critical Rating; Hunter is 3021 Agility, 37.3k Physical Mastery, and 11.5k Critical Rating. Champion has all class golds except the Fornost axe and Baingrist; Hunter has no class gold nor Baingrist.

    Results-wise: Champion’s best 60 second parse was 4900 and best 10 second parse was 4800; Hunter’s best 60 second parse was 3100 and 10 second parse was a mind-boggling 7k (as I said, I am not that good of a Hunter, though the 60 second parse was low by even my standards and largely due to the lag I experienced at the time; but the point again was not to see how much DPS my Hunter can do but how much more burst DPS my Hunter can do over my far superior Champion).

    In short, my Champion does well over 50 percent more (semi-) sustained DPS than my Hunter, but almost does 50 percent less burst DPS than my Hunter. In fact, a Champion has no “burst” to speak of at all, whereas a Hunter burst is easily more than twice his sustained DPS.

    --Screenshots and other concluding thoughts to be followed as I had to run--
    Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 03 2013 at 10:01 AM.
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  2. #2
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    How interesting, my hunter is probably barely better than yours, more of a &&&&&&& than a regular raider I guess but the semi application of science to these debates always grabs my attention. Did you achieve around 7k burst each time with your hunter? Are you 5 red and cool burn traited? As obviously red is more of a burst build and blue sustained. You admit this already but 60s is hardly sustained anyhow.

    Otherwise loving the analysis but repeatability is crucial and its clear you have a strong bias towards champs and if were only taking best results and ignoring averages its easy for the biases to slip in and impact the results. Since there's an expected large difference a small sample size is ok.

    Anyway, interesting stuff thanks for sharing.
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  3. #3
    As I said a year ago post your best champ screen shot and I'll post a better hunter one. Solo on a dummy, in the moors, in a raid I really don't care. Also you need to take into consideration the time it takes for champions to move from one target to another target and how they often are feared, stunned, thrown by mobs and limited by areas such as catapult areas in BFE.

    You are right champion DPS is amazing and definitely on par with hunter DPS. However it is obvious A) You are just another champion full of himself or B) Your hunter seriously sucks. Maybe post some screenshots with your initial post to create more of a productive discussion and oh, put it in the right forums?

  4. #4
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    For the OP - if ANY hunter starts a boss fight with his/her/hobbit bestest highest crittest "L00K @ m3 pwn this mob" Ilolz at you useless tank skillz (you see what I did there) then they should be..

    a) left to die in a corner

    b) kicked from the group

    c)forced by the GM's to reroll as a hobbit.

    Hunter dps play in a group should be like *serenading* a wonderful Breeland lassie, you start of gentle and work you way up to the big score, after all (and this at all the hunters who ALWAYS start with heart seeker) do you really want to be seen as someone who, erm, shall we say, shoots his bolt in the first 30 seconds?
    Last edited by Bhorn_EU; Jun 03 2013 at 12:13 PM.
    .

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  5. #5
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    As usual, Yelk fails to read/comprehend the point of the thread and somehow transmogrifies a thread into (mainly his) member measuring contest.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    As I said a year ago post your best champ screen shot and I'll post a better hunter one. Solo on a dummy, in the moors, in a raid I really don't care.
    This is absolutely hilarious for a number of reasons.

    But the chief hilarity ensues from the fact that when you made precisely this challenge during RoI, Vodomir posted his dummy and Raid DPS (and also referred to my dummy DPS, both non-CBR and CBR were already on the Champion forum), and you went into hiding for a while and never responded:

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...PS-class/page6

    Let me quote Vodomir himself:

    "You [i.e. Yelk] threw the gauntlet and it's been over 1 week now since I posted numbers in this thread. You haven't blown any one's brains by now. If the Hunter was such a superior DPS class as you (and some others) try to sell it, then it would probably be a cakewalk to produce those brain blowing videos."

    Moreover, stating the obvious: I even conceded/implied that due to equipment changes since RoI that disproportionately benefit Hunters post-update 9 (I will give you a screenshot also of how little the Greater Erebor set bonus dot does for a laugh compared to your Hunter sets), Hunters likely do more sustained DPS in any meaningful encounter presently. You are absolutely arguing against straw men of your making.

    To reiterate: This thread isn't about how Champions do more sustained DPS than Hunters. Rather--to reiterate yet again--it is to show how the Hunter mechanics give them vastly superior burst DPS over Champions, and how this burst DPS gap becomes misleading. To pursue the point further, even if Hunters indeed turn out to do more sustained DPS than Champions, it is nowhere along the lines suggested by the initial burst DPS gap.

    In fact, I will give you more ammunition free of charge, and actually undermine the argument that you think I was making. Parsing on 75 dummies inherently favor Champions over Hunters, because you will have higher Crits, and--especially with the Mirkwood boots--we have far bigger Crit Multipliers. So I was loading the dice in my favor, if I was really trying to prove the point you think I was making.

    Also, you want a Moors parse? LOL? As if that has any relevance whatsoever? I PvP on a rather "survival" build due to the situation on my server: In fact, one Warg supposedly told his Tribe mate that "Miretocot's PvP DPS is worse than that of a Defiler."

    As for screenshots: Yes, I said they are coming regarding the small experiment that I performed: Wait till tonight.

    As for RoI screenshots, I recently got a new computer so threw them out. But the 2300 non-CBR dummy DPS and 2600 CBR dummy DPS were at one time or another posted on the Champion's forum (and Vodomir have referred to them in the aforementioned thread). And you did not re-produce any dummy parse post then that exceeds my 2600 CBR post (or the 2700 CBR plus Fight-On! screenshot that Chily [sp.?] from your server posted). I will throw the 4600 FF first giant parse that Fresuvi posted during RoI for you to beat, too (good luck!).

    Likewise, the only Raid parse I have on this computer is the 4k BfE t1 semi-Pug screenshot that I have posted here too where 1) I didn't even go all-out, given that the PuG tank couldn't aggro at all, and 2) done with vastly inferior equipment than I have currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    Also you need to take into consideration the time it takes for champions to move from one target to another target and how they often are feared, stunned, thrown by mobs and limited by areas such as catapult areas in BFE.
    No sheet. Again, keep tilting at straw men.

    Even during RoI, I was careful to bracket my claims with many "ifs." Unlike you, I make very limited and conditional claims.

    In particular, I would never argue that Champions out-DPS Hunters in fights that favor ranged--and there are too many of them in MMORPGs. In fact, one of my most persistent complaint is that Champion DPS should be higher than Hunters, precisely because there are too many fights that favor ranged, whereas there are no fights that favor melee (at best, you have equally favored fights).

    I actually make the argument you are making about ranged fights here with exhaustive detail:

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...Appears!/page2

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    You are right champion DPS is amazing and definitely on par with hunter DPS.
    So &&& is your point now?

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    However it is obvious A) You are just another champion full of himself or B) Your hunter seriously sucks.
    Not sure why you are going ad hominem, but really: For you to call me "full of" myself is like fecal matter calling rotten fruit smelly.

    And I know my Hunter "sucks." I am--again unlike you--painfully aware of my own limitations.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    Maybe post some screenshots with your initial post to create more of a productive discussion and oh, put it in the right forums?
    Right forum? How is this the wrong forum?

    For the umpteenth time, this is not about how Champions out-DPS Hunters--a claim I would certainly not make post-update 9, and a claim I only made conditionally even in RoI (I said something along the lines of, if the fight permits continuous use of CBR AND if the fight goes past a certain duration where the skewing effect of a Hunter's initial burst lead wears off). It's more about how Hunters and Champions DPS differently in groups, and how people should adjust the initial aggro situation.
    Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 03 2013 at 12:16 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    As I said a year ago post your best champ screen shot and I'll post a better hunter one. Solo on a dummy, in the moors, in a raid I really don't care. Also you need to take into consideration the time it takes for champions to move from one target to another target and how they often are feared, stunned, thrown by mobs and limited by areas such as catapult areas in BFE.

    You are right champion DPS is amazing and definitely on par with hunter DPS. However it is obvious A) You are just another champion full of himself or B) Your hunter seriously sucks. Maybe post some screenshots with your initial post to create more of a productive discussion and oh, put it in the right forums?
    Dear Yelk,

    as much as I admire your work for the raiding community, I'm really fed up with that foolish arrogance you always show when it comes down to the Hunter vs. Champ debate. You only prove that you are full of yourself, nothing more or less.

    Is that "post you best Champ screen" the same challenge you threw out one year ago? In this post I challegende your claim: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...82#post6398282

    You promised to show mind blowing screenshots (even for AoE) and all you came up with up to this point was one dummy parse that was in the same ballpark as the best Champ parses (where the Champ parses have not utilized CBR, which in a raid drastically skews the picture in favour of Champs) and a Screenshot from Bukot that was clearly worse than my parse, albeit you were going with 2 Burgs whereas my parse featured only 1 Burg. Can you please tone down your "I'm the best DPS there is" attitude just a little bit, so you don't make yourself look like a complete fool?
    "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodomir View Post
    Dear Yelk,

    as much as I admire your work for the raiding community, I'm really fed up with that foolish arrogance you always show when it comes down to the Hunter vs. Champ debate. You only prove that you are full of yourself, nothing more or less.

    Is that "post you best Champ screen" the same challenge you threw out one year ago? In this post I challegende your claim: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...82#post6398282

    You promised to show mind blowing screenshots (even for AoE) and all you came up with up to this point was one dummy parse that was in the same ballpark as the best Champ parses (where the Champ parses have not utilized CBR, which in a raid drastically skews the picture in favour of Champs) and a Screenshot from Bukot that was clearly worse than my parse, albeit you were going with 2 Burgs whereas my parse featured only 1 Burg. Can you please tone down your "I'm the best DPS there is" attitude just a little bit, so you don't make yourself look like a complete fool?
    Yeah, I responded to that particular "challenge" right before you. I even added Fresuvi's FF T2 parse, which I am sure Yelk wasn't approaching during RoI.

    Overall, my views on Yelk is same. He is--when not unzipping his pants to show us something--at times intelligent and articulate, but something addles his mind every time the three words "Hunter," "Champion," and "DPS" are mentioned in the same sentence.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    As I said a year ago post your best champ screen shot and I'll post a better hunter one. Solo on a dummy, in the moors, in a raid I really don't care. Also you need to take into consideration the time it takes for champions to move from one target to another target and how they often are feared, stunned, thrown by mobs and limited by areas such as catapult areas in BFE.
    First of all, you did not post a better hunter parse after Vodomir posted his, to back up your point that 'hunter does way more DPS than champion' in RoI.

    Second, this thread is not at all about champ DPS v. hunter DPS, but a comparison of DPS mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    You are right champion DPS is amazing and definitely on par with hunter DPS. However it is obvious A) You are just another champion full of himself or B) Your hunter seriously sucks. Maybe post some screenshots with your initial post to create more of a productive discussion and oh, put it in the right forums?
    OP already stated that his hunter is way worse geared and skilled than his champion. The point is, even a hunter like 'that' can beat easily an exceptional champion in term of burst DPS despite the hunter ends up doing much lower at 1 min mark. The original post is not trying to say 'oh hey hunter can only do 3.5k while champion gets almost 5k on 75 dummy!', as 4k hunter DPS at 1 min on 75 dummy was reached long before U10; instead, it's like 'see, a hunter with 3k 1min DPS does have almost 3k more at 10 sec than a champion that got 4.9k at 1min, so no way a champion can beat a hunter who, has nearly the same DPS at 1min mark as the champ, in term of burst DPS'.

    Yes this test does have a bias towards champion since it was done on lvl 75 dummy, as Miretocot already stated; and in such test with average raiding hunter beating top champion in 10 sec DPS, it proves OP's point perfectly: hunter does way better burst DPS than champion.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhorn_EU View Post
    For the OP - if ANY hunter starts a boss fight with his/her/hobbit bestest highest crittest "L00K @ m3 pwn this mob" Ilolz at you useless tank skillz (you see what I did there) then they should be..

    a) left to die in a corner

    b) kicked from the group

    c)forced by the GM's to reroll as a hobbit.

    Hunter dps play in a group should be like *serenading* a wonderful Breeland lassie, you start of gentle and work you way up to the big score, after all (and this at all the hunters who ALWAYS start with heart seeker) do you really want to be seen as someone who, erm, shall we say, shoots his bolt in the first 30 seconds?
    Damage per skill and DPS are two different things. As a pretty awful hunter I like to start a non DPS race fight with HS, not to make tank feel bad but:

    1. Give the tank some more seconds to build up aggro after I get the feeling that it's okey to DPS now.
    2. To put HS on CD so the proc from 4 pieces Greater Bowmaster won't slip through my fingers.

    If I want to make the tank look like a fool, I would do Focus then throw out 6-9 focus bow within 5 sec instead of wasting 1/2 of the buff for a HS since the former usually yields higher burst DPS number.

    Though starting slow is usually required in 3/6 mans, yet with a guard using DPS race rotation it would be the best going all out the first sec guard challenge is used, as the more DPS a DPSer does during challenge period, the safer DPSer will be.
    Last edited by Farasilion; Jun 03 2013 at 01:25 PM.
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  10. #10
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    You guys gotta stop trying to gank each other here...

    nice analysis though, full bursting hunts def have the advantage. The amount of damage hunters put out on the first 10-20sec of the fight is insane(specially aoe) while buffed will yield massive #s

    Right off the top of my head I see,sorrect me if im wrong..
    First 5 sec focus(aoe): +136% crit mult
    first 5 sec focus: +111 crit mult
    first 5 sec induction: +108.7% crit mult
    And possibly to exceed ~200%{+/-) outgoing ranged damage.

    Lets say champs do a little more damage sustained, this is offset by the constant interruptions of positioning,same with burgs except they have to be alot more careful. all in all top raid champs,hunts,burgs prob in the same league in terms of overall dps/total damage. What do you consider an 'edge' in dps diff?2%?5%?10%?15%?
    i wouldnt live by dummy parses because thats such controlled scenario imo. Just an idea of what damage you would be putting out if you didnt have to watch status,aggro,positioning as well as the other members of your group.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    Overall, my views on Yelk is same. He is--when not unzipping his pants to show us something--at times intelligent and articulate, but something addles his mind every time the three words "Hunter," "Champion," and "DPS" are mentioned in the same sentence.
    My my. I read over these posts quickly and it brought a smile to my face. You are absolutely right in your observation about my attitude towards the three words. When I originally read your post I totally read it saying champions do far superior DPS to hunters in the long run always and by a large amount contrary to popular belief that they are better due to the initial 10 second critical onslaught.

    When it comes to this topic and I read that anything else in your posts immediately gets removed in my eyes unless there is a comma and something following it to explain why or an if/but. I read over my post and once again I laughed at my condescending tone. Forgive me if I seemed blunt, harsh and self-obsessive - it was not my intention nor was it my intention to use myself as model comparison.

    As for hauling up past posts about me backing down I remember that post and all I remember is posting a better parse. I am very obsessive that way and I would remember not being able to conjure up a better number. I'll look through my screenshots after posting this. Either way if as you said this post is not about the comparison of who is better anything I have posted is irrelevant - that is just how I interpreted it. Consider those three words my weakness.

    P.S. After reading over your post this made me smile :
    "I hope my thread will then at least begin the conversation that is needed to serve several necessary functions: Deflate the unwarrantedly large ego of some Hunters"

    I look forward to more discussion on this and I will post a screenshot here of what I find out. (Constructively)
    Last edited by YesMaam; Jun 03 2013 at 08:05 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    Results-wise: Champion’s best 60 second parse was 4900 and best 10 second parse was 4800; Hunter’s best 60 second parse was 3100 and 10 second parse was a mind-boggling 7k (as I said, I am not that good of a Hunter, though the 60 second parse was low by even my standards and largely due to the lag I experienced at the time; but the point again was not to see how much DPS my Hunter can do but how much more burst DPS my Hunter can do over my far superior Champion).

    In short, my Champion does well over 50 percent more (semi-) sustained DPS than my Hunter, but almost does 50 percent less burst DPS than my Hunter. In fact, a Champion has no “burst” to speak of at all, whereas a Hunter burst is easily more than twice his sustained DPS.

    --Screenshots and other concluding thoughts to be followed as I had to run--
    4900 is impressive, screenshot? I tried 3 times just now and 4300 was my best one and I got some excellent devs in too don't think I could do much better. You didn't use any AOEs obviously? I hit 3 16k heartseekers and had many 5400 ps and 8300 blood arrows also kept my b arrow on which ticks up to almost 1k/2s on crits. I have an 85 champ who is geared fairly decently and I knew he hit damn hard but I can't imagine doing more damage than that. What skill rotation dishes out that? A movie would be amazing too was talking to some good champs who can get nowhere near 4900, though they haven't tested they said that seems sketchy.
    Last edited by YesMaam; Jun 04 2013 at 12:33 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    ....

    In short, my Champion does well over 50 percent more (semi-) sustained DPS than my Hunter .....-
    If that's the case, you either don't know how to play a hunter, how to trait/equip a hunter, or worse, you're ignorant of how to do both.
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  14. #14
    Can any other champions post close to 4900 for more than 60 seconds? If so I will confirm that champs do more sustained DPS than hunters but I'm still skeptical until I see a SS and even then if AOE is involved. Or hunters do more than my 4285? I'll do more tests tomorrow but don't think I can do near the 5k mark.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    Can any other champions post close to 4900 for more than 60 seconds? If so I will confirm that champs do more sustained DPS than hunters but I'm still skeptical until I see a SS and even then if AOE is involved. Or hunters do more than my 4285? I'll do more tests tomorrow but don't think I can do near the 5k mark.
    I think it's perfectly fine and normal for champion to get higher 1min DPS number on the lvl 75 dummy than hunter, as they have much more critical multiplier (from class difference and class gold) plus, on a lvl 75 dummy with rather small amount of crit defence, a lvl 85 toon usually have about 60% crit + dev chance which is very abnormal if hapens in on-level raids.

    Namely, with such insane crit chance and low crit defence, the lvl 75 dummy parsing has a strong bais towards the class that has higher critical multiplier, aka champion; while the 85 dummy favours hunter more with insane crit defence (my HS dev hits only 500 more on it than my HS crit). Neither of the two dummies is giving us very ideal/accurate result in class v. class DPS comparison.
    Last edited by Farasilion; Jun 04 2013 at 04:12 AM.
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  16. #16
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    Yelk,

    I apologize for my late response: I have been having serious issues connecting to the net from home the last few days, which was partly why my Hunter parses were so bad, as I have mentioned (in addition to sub-optimal skill and gear on that toon). In fact, I can't get into the game right now, and I hope I don't get booted from the net before I am done with this response.

    At any rate, now that you have backed off the ad hominem style of argumentation, I will too. As you seem to vaguely recall, we have clashed in the past on this forum several times in the past, and I suspect that it is partly responsible for your reflexively hostile response.

    Nonetheless, you have completely derailed the thread and somehow transmogrified it into another "who does more DPS--Hunter or Champion?" troll-fest. Further, whether intentionally or not, you are trying to force me to take positions that I have not publicly supported (at least since update 9) and do not even privately hold.

    So before we continue, let me make my position crystal-clear for the umpteenth time. While I did hold (and many extraordinarily high-parsing Hunters then agreed with me) that Champions did more sustained than Hunters DPS in RoI, I am not certain this is the case now due primarily due to the fact that Hunter gear in RoR is so superior to Champion gear--so much that it is one of the main complaints Champions have now. For instance, every class gold you have is DPS-oriented; only 4 of ours is so. Further, the Rohan barter ring gives Agility/Will classes extra 400-plus Mastery; they do not for Might classes for some unknown reason. And your class armor sets are far superior to Champion armor sets that it is criminal (with the Hytbold 2 set Berseker bonus excepted).

    In fact, I have told both Farasilion and Gabredil--among many others--that I suspect that Hunters now even do more sustained single-target DPS than Champions for any meaningful fights. So you are really tilting against windmills in trying to portray this thread as arguing that Champions do more sustained DPS than Hunters. If I intended to make any definitive statement at all regarding the comparison, it is merely this: The final sustained DPS gap, regardless of who is ultimately superior, is nowhere along the lines suggested by the dramatic initial burst DPS gap.

    That is all.

    Now to the particulars of your response:

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post

    When it comes to this topic and I read that anything else in your posts immediately gets removed in my eyes unless there is a comma and something following it to explain why or an if/but.
    But the fact of the matter is that I rarely take simplistic positions and do indeed bracket everything with "if/but"s (unless I am really strapped for time). Some of my long-time Hunter interlocutors like Farasilion and Gabredil--while ultimately not always agreeing with me on the Hunter v. Champion DPS aspects--will at least give me the credit for thinking through and explaining my positions in detail.

    So I don't see--aside from personal animus from past history--why you would take such a position against my posts at first glance.


    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post

    As for hauling up past posts about me backing down I remember that post and all I remember is posting a better parse. I am very obsessive that way and I would remember not being able to conjure up a better number.
    I hate to say it, but as Vodomir and Farasilion have also mentioned: You did not post a better parse. Your RoI dummy parse was a bit lower than Vodomir and my non-CBR parse if I recall correctly, and nowhere near either my CBR parse or Chily's CBR plus Fight On! parse (though I am of the opinion that Fight On! parses are illegitimate for these kind of things). Further, in addition to that referenced thread, there was also another thread where you said you claimed that you were able to do X DPS in Shadow wing (I believe the number was 2500, but I am not going to try to do a thread search, etc. because it's taking me forever to even access another URL at the moment) and ultimately said you "lost" the screenshot or such when Vodomir challenged you to prove it.


    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    P.S. After reading over your post this made me smile :
    "I hope my thread will then at least begin the conversation that is needed to serve several necessary functions: Deflate the unwarrantedly large ego of some Hunters"
    I think here is where I may be at least partly at fault for causing some misinterpretation. When I said "deflate the unwarrantedly large ego of some Hunters," I did not mean Hunters who are absolutely first tier DPS-ers like you, Farasilion, or Gabredil. (Trust me; not everything I write in relation to Hunters has to do with you! ). As testy as some of our previous exchanges have been, I know--and hear from multiple sources on your server--that you are a remarkable Hunter. And again, if someone were to put a gun to my head, I would probably say on solo Hunters do more sustained DPS than Champions now (Raid is a different issue due to the unequal effects of Raid buffs--but I have always been at pains to explain how the "who does more?" question always depends on the context.)

    Rather, I meant to "deflate" the ego of those mediocre Hunters (those Hunters who are at the level of my Hunter or worse) who automatically think they out-DPS the very best Champions simply because they can do more--a lot more--for 10 seconds. Again, recall the context of how the thread percolated in my head and emerged: The Hunter who initially made these offensive claims about Champion DPS was not you, Farasilion, or Gabredil--or anyone near that level--but an alt Hunter just like my Hunter and probably doing lower DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post

    I look forward to more discussion on this and I will post a screenshot here of what I find out. (Constructively)
    If so, the derailment will be of mutual benefit; and I already see in the follow-up responses fruitful areas of the Hunter v. Champion DPS issue to explore--though that will mean the "part II" of what I wanted to add to the original post will be postponed indefinitely.
    Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 04 2013 at 07:35 AM.
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  17. #17
    I've been trying to hold myself back from posting in this thread, but I keep coming back to it so I'm just going to bite the bullet and say this.

    I'm not coming at this from the point of view of a hunter, honestly I'm not. Those with long memories will know that at heart I am a champ.

    OP. As it happens, I tend to agree with you. On the whole, champ sustained dps slightly edges hunter sustained dps. Slightly. Hunter burst dps is quite a bit higher only if you take into account improved focus, which is not really a good metric in my opinion. If you don't take into account improved focus, hunter burst slightly edges champ burst. Slightly. In all honesty, champ and hunter dps are fairly well balanced in my personal opinion.

    Having said that, posts like yours make me cringe and want to smash my face into the wall.

    The problem is you say you've conducted this experiment. Let's not even get into the details on why the experiment itself is deeply flawed, the main concern is where is the data? Where are screenshots of your setup/gear? Where are screenshots of your combat analysis? Information on your rotations? Anything? What about this hunter of yours? What about some information on his setup/rotations etc? Perhaps you're not as seasoned with him as you'd like, but other hunters could give you some well intended advice or suggest reasons why/how your parse could be sub-optimal.

    If you're going to come out here and make mammoth posts with incendiary claims, then you should expect some critique.

    To quote a hero of mine, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Now I think that you've provided less than nothing. What you have provided, or "claimed", does more harm than good to support your case. You've done about 5 runs so as to not be influenced by an outlier, and yet, provide only one of your results per set, the best one, which for all we know could indeed be an outlier. I mean really, come on. Even though 5 runs for 10s or 60s is really not enough to be conclusive about anything, you could have at least provided an average, or provided ALL 5 of the results for us to see the distribution.

    (As a side note, in order to statistically diminish the effects of outlier data points, one INCREASES the size of the data set, not the opposite).

    The second major problem is how you've effectively said that your hunter and your champ and incomparable, and yet you've compared them anyway. I mean this just wreaks of bad reasoning and almost immediately invalidates all of the claims that you've suggested that your findings support.

    I could go on but I really think it's best I draw this to a close. I'm a scientist, above all things I value data and good analysis of data. Your post has none of this. It is the FOX news of science. It reminds me of another of those whines about "x" class does this better than me and it's not fair. Or, "y" class got picked for a run instead of me and it's not fair. Inelegant, childish.

    For what it's worth, I agree that this isn't the best place for this thread.
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  18. #18
    I'm very interested in seeing this 4.9k parse as well. I got a 4.2k in 10 tries where my dev was obviously through the roof but a 4.9k parse would have to be an outlier among outliers. You'd have to have like 40% dev on your main skills which is impossible to achieve reliably.



    Notice I had to use SD to make it to 1min which kinda hurt my dps a little bit as I had to hit an extra WA.

    PS: I don't have Baingrist or CB armour and I forgot to use GR clicky.
    Last edited by Shintagh; Jun 04 2013 at 09:45 AM.

  19. #19
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    A fair response, if mostly superfluous since you are slashing at a phantom target.

    I think I have addressed some of your concerns on my first lengthy response of today to Yelk that is right above yours. But let me take time off from responding to Yelk's other posts since yours is (for the most part, when you are not throwing out sensationalist, ad hominem asides) an exceptionally reasoned response--in addition to raising intellectually stimulating issues.

    (As perhaps not an unimportant biographical trivia, I am a humanist by training and a lawyer by profession; and if you will fault me for presenting something that is not so scientifically rigorous, I am certainly going to take issues with you using certain adjectives loosely and inappropriately! )

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post

    OP. As it happens, I tend to agree with you. On the whole, champ sustained dps slightly edges hunter sustained dps.
    But you are agreeing with a fictive "you" (i.e. me) that does not exist to begin with.

    As I have said numerous times: My claim was not that Champions have superior sustained DPS than Hunters. Please stop forcing me to renounce this position ad infinitum; it is most tiresome.

    I really do not understand why some of you portray me as taking this position. If you are a frequent visitor at the Champion and Hunter forum, perhaps you are--like Yelk--colored by my past energetic defense of that position prior to U9? But whatever I thought prior to U9 or RoI, I no longer believe that Champions conclusively do more sustained DPS than Hunters. Perhaps this is why Hunters like Farasilion did not interpret my thread the way you and Yelk did? She actually hears my daily complaints about how Champion DPS has been nerfed post-RoI relative to Hunters, and that it is likely that we do less solo DPS than Hunters now--even sustained.

    Is someone never allowed to change his views in response to changing reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Hunter burst dps is quite a bit higher only if you take into account improved focus, which is not really a good metric in my opinion.
    Why is it not a good metric? Many Hunters I know tend to open fights with it--especially boss fights (I initially said "most," but I expunged it, since it lacks the scientific rigor that you saw cherish).

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    If you don't take into account improved focus, hunter burst slightly edges champ burst. Slightly.
    "Slightly" is rather imprecise and vague, but I am going to strongly disagree and hope we use the same lexicon.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    In all honesty, champ and hunter dps are fairly well balanced in my personal opinion.
    A different topic altogether that I have explored elsewhere but I will most emphatically disagree. To be succinct, I think the ledger is tilted too heavily in favor of Hunters in the context of the fact that all MMORPGs contain many encounters that inherently favor ranged but not melee. As a result, there will always be encounters where you will take ranged over melee even if melees theoretically do more DPS.

    So I think a proper "balance" requires Champions to do more A LOT MORE DPS in the abstract--which is certainly no longer the case in post-update 9 and was arguably not the case even in RoI (depending on your definition of "a lot").

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    If you're going to come out here and make mammoth posts with incendiary claims, then you should expect some critique.

    To quote a hero of mine, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
    Your characterization of my thread is hyberbolic in the extreme, probably because you--like Yelk--misunderstood the thrust of my post.

    I really really did not think my claims would be so "incendiary" or "extraordinary." If anything, I thought I was stating a commonplace--a mere bromide to the knowledgeable playerbase: The claim was not that Champions do more sustained DPS than Hunters, but rather that the initial burst DPS gap is misleading as an indicator or predictor of sustained DPS, and that Champions close the gap over-time. How is this claim in any ways "incendiary"?

    When I mentioned this thread to some folks in my kin, they were just as as amazed by the drama I was.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post

    The problem is you say you've conducted this experiment. Let's not even get into the details on why the experiment itself is deeply flawed, the main concern is where is the data? Where are screenshots of your setup/gear? Where are screenshots of your combat analysis? Information on your rotations? Anything? What about this hunter of yours? What about some information on his setup/rotations etc? Perhaps you're not as seasoned with him as you'd like, but other hunters could give you some well intended advice or suggest reasons why/how your parse could be sub-optimal.
    A few things here.

    First, as a general matter, I apologize for not assuming that I was submitting a scholarly article to Journal of the American Chemical Society.

    In all seriousness, if you have actually looked at various parse threads, virtually nobody presents as an exhaustive list of items to consider that you demand of me. In fact, most do not even post screenshots, much less the minute character details you list. (I suppose you could rejoin that the burden of proof is higher for me since I made "incendiary" and "extraordinary" claims, but no such claims were made, except one very high Crit-luck-driven CBR parse that is not always easy to replicate.)

    Second, I have met at least a part of your requirement already--which is far more than what most of these type of posts on LotRO forums submit. That is, I have already given you the relevant DPS stats of my Champion and Hunter, as well as noteworthy gear that is particularly beneficial. Perhaps you are not a frequent reader of this forum after all.

    Third, most importantly: Look, I made it clear that the original post was part I of a series, and that more details of the experiment and my tentative conclusions from it will be forthcoming on my own initiative or upon external inquiry. I tend to write wall-of-text type of posts, so it is simply my modus operandi to do so when I don't have the time. (An example par excellence is found in the official Champion suggestions thread put up by the Champion developer, where I have Part I and II posted some time apart, and Part III is still not written.) But I said I was going to supply more. But somehow folks like Yelk totally minsinterpreted my thread and forced me to waste a lot of time and divert resources from continuing with my initial train of thought.

    Had I known that this thread would cause such an uproar, I would have finished the whole thing first and then posted all at once. But I do not claim to be Nostradamus; and from the yawns I got from my kin-mates, and in-game friends when I first went over the ideas in the original post, I had a reasoned basis for thinking what I wrote would not be interpreted as "incendiary" or "extraordinary."

    But then I suppose one can never over-estimate the reading comprehension skills of your interlocutors in the Internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Now I think that you've provided less than nothing. What you have provided, or "claimed", does more harm than good to support your case. You've done about 5 runs so as to not be influenced by an outlier, and yet, provide only one of your results per set, the best one, which for all we know could indeed be an outlier. I mean really, come on. Even though 5 runs for 10s or 60s is really not enough to be conclusive about anything, you could have at least provided an average, or provided ALL 5 of the results for us to see the distribution.

    (As a side note, in order to statistically diminish the effects of outlier data points, one INCREASES the size of the data set, not the opposite).
    Exactly how many repetitions do you want me to do? A CBR parse needs a healer; I am also waiting on cooldowns (if you think using CDs for parses of this nature constitutes "cheating," as some do, then that's also a different issue altogether). Further, since I don't write macros but manually or key-bind switch gear, I sometimes forget to switch from Baingrist to normal weapon or switch from CB buff armor to normal armor. (I am an old man, and this type of things happen rather frequently; my kin can tell you how often we wiped on FF Challenge with me tanking, because I forgot to switch back from Baingrist or CB armor and ended up doing 0 DPS on the first giant.) Should discontinued parses or bad parses from such mistakes count as a "sample"?

    And once again: I was trying to illustrate a point that virtually every darn well-informed player knows: That the initially huge burst DPS gap between Champion and Hunter at 10 seconds or so (the duration of a Champion's Challenge) is not indicative of how the two classes progress DPS-wise over-time. If there was anything really surprising about my presentation, it was perhaps that the initial burst gap is even larger than I (or others) may have thought; but that does not change the underlying point.

    You are making it sound like I was trying to prove that the moon was made of cheese.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post

    The second major problem is how you've effectively said that your hunter and your champ and incomparable, and yet you've compared them anyway. I mean this just wreaks of bad reasoning and almost immediately invalidates all of the claims that you've suggested that your findings support.
    Here, you have again totally missed the point of the comparison between my Hunter and my Champion, which Farasilion did not miss. I made the comparison precisely to show that even my rather mediocre Hunter does so much more burst than my much superior Champion. If I intended to prove--which you and Yelk (at least initially) seem to think--I would have compared my sustained DPS to those of the very best DPS Hunters on my server like Farasilion or asked forum Hunters like Gabredil. If there was "oh wow" number that I wanted to highlight: It wasn't my crit-luck parse of 4900 for 60 seconds; it was instead my Hunter parse of 7k for 10 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    I could go on but I really think it's best I draw this to a close. I'm a scientist, above all things I value data and good analysis of data. Your post has none of this. It is the FOX news of science. It reminds me of another of those whines about "x" class does this better than me and it's not fair. Or, "y" class got picked for a run instead of me and it's not fair. Inelegant, childish.

    For what it's worth, I agree that this isn't the best place for this thread.
    A very unfortunate cascade of ad hominem comments suffused with mischaracterizations and assumptions unbecoming of you. (For instance, I am not sure where you get this sense that I complain about not being picked for Raids when I have not missed a Raid in more than a year because I was not "picked"; and I sign up for well-over 90 percent of Raids.)

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    For what it's worth, I agree that this isn't the best place for this thread.
    Would you like to suggest where it would have been better?

    I chose here by default: "General" would have invited more misinterpretations and trolling/flame-fests (if that were possible); and I didn't want to put it in an individualized class forum, because it discusses two classes (and before I got diverted, it would have involved Guardians and Wardens, too); and it would have contained much concluding reflections about group aggro mechanics, too.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shintagh View Post
    I'm very interested in seeing this 4.9k parse as well. I got a 4.2k in 10 tries where my dev was obviously through the roof but a 4.9k parse would have to be an outlier among outliers. You'd have to have like 40% dev on your main skills which is impossible to achieve reliably.



    Notice I had to use SD to make it to 1min which kinda hurt my dps a little bit as I had to hit an extra WA.
    Before I got diverted from responding to Yelk's posts, I was going to provide more details. But that post will have to wait till I return for meal break.

    But briefly:

    Yes, it seems like the 4.9k is indeed an outlier. It is in retrospect even more remarkable, given that I did it without using the CB buff armor at the time. For the record, the 5 parses I did for this experiment were the first done since I got the Mirkwood boots. I did 6-7 more last night through some lag to test, and I was not coming anywhere close to 4.9k.

    But it seems that my samples yielded a bit higher DPS though than yours though: Two or three should be completely discounted since I forgot to either switch back from Baingrist or CB armor in those parses, and I discontinued them. There was one pretty bad parse at 3800 or so (lowest I've seen since Mirkwood boots), which I didn't screenshot; I screenshotted the 3 decent ones around 4100-4400. So discounting the parses I failed to re-equip, we are still looking at average parse of over 4k.

    Also, the 40 percent dev luck you mention to reach 4900 is a bit of an exaggeration. Unfortunately, in the 4900 parse, I screenshotted it after I left Stangard and don't have the second window CA that shows Crit/Dev percentages. (For some reason, I have to activate the "lock" on the first CA window only on Champion after each parse to show it; if someone knows how to fix this problem, then please let me know.) But if I recall looking at those numbers, I had crit/Dev percentage of mid 60 percent--which is about 10 percent higher than the norm you will see on the 4100-4400 screenshots where I did make sure I locked the 2nd window.

    What explains the disparity (if a disparity does even exist)? I am not going to presume I have a better rotation (though perhaps a more parse-friendly Traits that I don't normally Raid on). So what equipment/stats did you parse with?

    I suspect the difference was that I had a healer heal me and thus could start at max tier 20 percent help and not worry much about self-heals. I know my parses were much worse when I was diverted by having to hit Dire Need, Morale pot, Power pot (after Dire Need), Bracing Heal when trying to parse solo without a healer.
    Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 04 2013 at 09:59 AM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shintagh View Post

    PS: I don't have Baingrist or CB armour and I forgot to use GR clicky.
    So you did 4.2k with clearly inferior gear than my gear (Baingrist alone adds what? 5 percent? 10 percent?) AND no healer forcing you to waste valuable Fervour and time hitting self-heals.

    I think the explanation is rather self-evident now.
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    Before I got diverted from responding to Yelk's posts, I was going to provide more details. But that post will have to wait till I return for meal break.

    But briefly:

    Yes, it seems like the 4.9k is indeed an outlier. It is in retrospect even more remarkable, given that I did it without using the CB buff armor at the time. For the record, the 5 parses I did for this experiment were the first done since I got the Mirkwood boots. I did 6-7 more last night through some lag to test, and I was not coming anywhere close to 4.9k.

    But it seems that my samples yielded a bit higher DPS though than yours though: Two or three should be completely discounted since I forgot to either switch back from Baingrist or CB armor in those parses, and I discontinued them. There was one pretty bad parse at 3800 or so (lowest I've seen since Mirkwood boots), which I didn't screenshot; I screenshotted the 3 decent ones around 4100-4400. So discounting the parses I failed to re-equip, we are still looking at average parse of over 4k.

    Also, the 40 percent dev luck you mention to reach 4900 is a bit of an exaggeration. Unfortunately, in the 4900 parse, I screenshotted it after I left Stangard and don't have the second window CA that shows Crit/Dev percentages. (For some reason, I have to activate the "lock" on the first CA window only on Champion after each parse to show it; if someone knows how to fix this problem, then please let me know.) But if I recall looking at those numbers, I had crit/Dev percentage of mid 60 percent--which is about 10 percent higher than the norm you will see on the 4100-4400 screenshots where I did make sure I locked the 2nd window.

    What explains the disparity (if a disparity does even exist)? I am not going to presume I have a better rotation (though perhaps a more parse-friendly Traits that I don't normally Raid on). So what equipment/stats did you parse with?

    I suspect the difference was that I had a healer heal me and thus could start at max tier 20 percent help and not worry much about self-heals. I know my parses were much worse when I was diverted by having to hit Dire Need, Morale pot, Power pot (after Dire Need), Bracing Heal when trying to parse solo without a healer.
    Starting at 20% CBR with a healer would definitely improve things. Trait-wise it was just the usual reds BL/VS/DS/DS/Flurry/CF and then Swift to Anger. Rotation the quiet common WA > RS faceroll.

    I really think it all comes down to the dev on Remorseless, whenever I'd dev on RS my parse would stay above 4k and as soon as I'd stop deving it would fall below 4k. I had 28% dev on RS in that parse (of course not all of them were on main hand, I recall having 4 or 5 10k+ hits from RS). For everything else dev doesn't matter much because dev and crit multipliers aren't that far apart. I mean the only way I see that parse going higher is by just deving more on RS. My stats were similar to yours, 10k crit 40k mastery.

    Would love to see your dev % on RS for that parse or similar 4k+ parses. I'd be shocked if it's under 20%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    So you did 4.2k with clearly inferior gear than my gear (Baingrist alone adds what? 5 percent? 10 percent?) AND no healer forcing you to waste valuable Fervour and time hitting self-heals.

    I think the explanation is rather self-evident now.
    Sync fail! I guess that's it, 7% from CB and 5ish% loss from CBR combined with Baingrist 5ish% covers the 15% difference in 4.2 and 4.9k. Now I hate my luck even more for not ever getting Baingrist.
    Last edited by Shintagh; Jun 04 2013 at 10:36 AM.

  23. #23
    Ooooo. Rather defensive. Ok, I'll bite....

    EDIT: If you feel compelled to respond (I know it's a long post), but at least get through the whole post. A few things I explain in more detail later on and could alter your initial response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    A fair response, if mostly superfluous since you are slashing at a phantom target.

    I think I have addressed some of your concerns on my first lengthy response of today to Yelk that is right above yours. But let me take time off from responding to Yelk's other posts since yours is (for the most part, when you are not throwing out sensationalist, ad hominem asides) an exceptionally reasoned response--in addition to raising intellectually stimulating issues.

    (As perhaps not an unimportant biographical trivia, I am a humanist by training and a lawyer by profession; and if you will fault me for presenting something that is not so scientifically rigorous, I am certainly going to take issues with you using certain adjectives loosely and inappropriately! )
    Very well.


    But you are agreeing with a fictive "you" (i.e. me) that does not exist to begin with.

    As I have said numerous times: My claim was not that Champions have superior sustained DPS than Hunters. Please stop forcing me to renounce this position ad infinitum; it is most tiresome.
    It should be though, because it's true, though the difference for equally well played and geared champs and hunters is not nearly as much as it once was.

    You did say this though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Miretocot View Post
    In short, my Champion does well over 50 percent more (semi-) sustained DPS than my Hunter, but almost does 50 percent less burst DPS than my Hunter. In fact, a Champion has no “burst” to speak of at all, whereas a Hunter burst is easily more than twice his sustained DPS.
    Which I took to be your ultimate claims.

    Granted, there is a key get out clause in this quote, the word "my" when you refer to the hunter. I would simply add that you have not qualified this and so it is you who have resorted to sensationalism. What is the context of the values you have given? Your Champ does 50% more sustained dps than your Hunter. Ok, so what? When qualified with the previous statements about how poor your hunter is in comparison, one can extrapolate to any number of possible conclusions. Perhaps, if your hunter was better geared, his dps would shoot up to be 50% more than your champs. Perhaps you are being modest and your hunter is about as good as it can get. Most of your above comment is redundant. The only relevant point is about the relative increase in your hunters initial burst, but more on that later.


    I really do not understand why some of you portray me as taking this position. If you are a frequent visitor at the Champion and Hunter forum, perhaps you are--like Yelk--colored by my past energetic defense of that position prior to U9? But whatever I thought prior to U9 or RoI, I no longer believe that Champions conclusively do more sustained DPS than Hunters. Perhaps this is why Hunters like Farasilion did not interpret my thread the way you and Yelk did? She actually hears my daily complaints about how Champion DPS has been nerfed post-RoI relative to Hunters, and that it is likely that we do less solo DPS than Hunters now--even sustained.

    Is someone never allowed to change his views in response to changing reality?
    I don't really care for your forum post history, but for what it's worth, I applaud people who do not hold their opinions in such high regard that they are rendered infallible.

    Why is it not a good metric? Many Hunters I know tend to open fights with it--especially boss fights (I initially said "most," but I expunged it, since it lacks the scientific rigor that you saw cherish).
    Erm ok. How many times in an encounter do you get to "open the fight". Unless you have hunters purposefully dying so that they can be rezzed out of combat just so they can get that little bit of extra burst, I really don't see how improved focus is relevant. Ok, that was a bit flippant. My point is, there are only really two times where burst damage is important. The first is during the handful of boss fights/encounters where one calls for max dps, oathbreakers etc due to some encounter mechanic. Almost invariably, NONE of these occasions occur at the beginning of the fight. The second scenario is PvP but you already disqualified that from the discussion.

    To address the point about many Hunters beginning fights like that, I would say that from my experience, most Hunters don't do that, and if they do, they do so with tanks who know, or should know exactly how to hold agro from them during this period. As such, it is a non-issue. How well hunters can burst at a principally irrelevant time is a non-point. How well hunters can burst when called upon to do so, i.e. towards the end of a boss fight, IS a relevant point, and I simply point out, that during these times, improved focus is by and large, unavailable.

    I think this point may be a fundamental disagreement we have. If so, I don't think there is any argument either of us can make to convince the other otherwise and so I suggest we refrain from trying.

    A different topic altogether that I have explored elsewhere but I will most emphatically disagree. To be succinct, I think the ledger is tilted too heavily in favor of Hunters in the context of the fact that all MMORPGs contain many encounters that inherently favor ranged but not melee. As a result, there will always be encounters where you will take ranged over melee even if melees theoretically do more DPS.

    So I think a proper "balance" requires Champions to do more A LOT MORE DPS in the abstract--which is certainly no longer the case in post-update 9 and was arguably not the case even in RoI (depending on your definition of "a lot").
    As you say, an entirely different topic which has nothing to do with your original post. I disagree and choose not to continue this point in this thread, if it pleases you.


    Your characterization of my thread is hyberbolic in the extreme, probably because you--like Yelk--misunderstood the thrust of my post.

    I really really did not think my claims would be so "incendiary" or "extraordinary." If anything, I thought I was stating a commonplace--a mere bromide to the knowledgeable playerbase: The claim was not that Champions do more sustained DPS than Hunters, but rather that the initial burst DPS gap is misleading as an indicator or predictor of sustained DPS, and that Champions close the gap over-time. How is this claim in any ways "incendiary"?

    When I mentioned this thread to some folks in my kin, they were just as as amazed by the drama I was.
    If you are surprised, then I'm sorry. When you start a thread by saying things like "extremely experienced, well-informed LotRO Raiders are remarkably uninformed", you have to expect that it will rub people the wrong way. If not, then I'm afraid your choice of phrasing was a bit naive.

    On a mathematical level (afterall, all the things we are talking about are variables), the way you have chosen to express your claims/non-claims is a little bit, well, iffy, but I'm not going to nit-pick about that. I'll just say that, going back to my previous point about initial burst being a type of outlier data which is flattened out over time, for the most part for these kind of theorycrafting threads, should be disregarded.



    A few things here.

    First, as a general matter, I apologize for not assuming that I was submitting a scholarly article to Journal of the American Chemical Society.

    In all seriousness, if you have actually looked at various parse threads, virtually nobody presents as an exhaustive list of items to consider that you demand of me. In fact, most do not even post screenshots, much less the minute character details you list. (I suppose you could rejoin that the burden of proof is higher for me since I made "incendiary" and "extraordinary" claims, but no such claims were made, except one very high Crit-luck-driven CBR parse that is not always easy to replicate.)
    I wasn't asking for a scientific paper, just something, well, better. Perhaps other parse threads are also lacking detail, but that's not really a valid excuse. A post that begins "I designed and performed an experiment" catches my attention, I qualify it for what it is, irrespective of anything else to avoid bias. That's only fair.

    To be clear, I wasn't demanding anything of you personally. They are just suggestions. If I were to do a similar experiment, they are the things I would consider. The issue is transparency. Nobody can reproduce what you have done because no-one knows exactly what you did (perhaps it's a secret though, ./shrug). Nobody can see your raw results. All we have is what you have CHOSEN to tell us. Now I don't know you, so I'm by no means calling you a liar, I'm just saying I have no reason to believe you.

    Second, I have met at least a part of your requirement already--which is far more than what most of these type of posts on LotRO forums submit. That is, I have already given you the relevant DPS stats of my Champion and Hunter, as well as noteworthy gear that is particularly beneficial. Perhaps you are not a frequent reader of this forum after all.
    Two things here: There are quite a lot more relevant DPS stats that I personally would have liked to see. Primarily trait set ups and specifically for the Hunter, were you improved fleetness or cool burn? It's quite important you see. I think LI's and particularly settings are also rather relevant. Ok, perhaps the details of the skill rotation are somewhat over the top, but in terms of things that are relevant to ones DPS, a few stats in the character panel are just the tip of the iceberg.

    Second point, I never claimed to be a frequent reader of the forums so not sure where that comment came from. Many moons ago, when my Champ was my life, I would be far more active and have debates/discussions with the likes of Uruviel, Haakon, Thunder and the like, but these are proper old school champs and well before the days of the EU/US server merge. Since the beta forums made this place a royal pain, my activity here has diminished. Just thought I'd clarify.

    Third, most importantly: Look, I made it clear that the original post was part I of a series, and that more details of the experiment and my tentative conclusions from it will be forthcoming on my own initiative or upon external inquiry. I tend to write wall-of-text type of posts, so it is simply my modus operandi to do so when I don't have the time. (An example par excellence is found in the official Champion suggestions thread put up by the Champion developer, where I have Part I and II posted some time apart, and Part III is still not written.) But I said I was going to supply more. But somehow folks like Yelk totally minsinterpreted my thread and forced me to waste a lot of time and divert resources from continuing with my initial train of thought.
    I don't see why this is important. Am I to refrain from posting a response or critique of part I of your "series" until all parts have been finished? Is that the point? Am I not allowed to form an opinion of, and in a forum of free speech, express my opinion on the Game of Thrones books yet because they haven't all been written yet? Can you not see that that is a ludicrous point? Take responsibility for what you post. If it isn't finished, don't post it. If it cannot stand alone for what it is, don't post it. If it require other posts in order for it to be what you want it to be, then for gods sake, post them. Don't complain that people don't understand what you meant because you hadn't said it yet. That's preposterous.

    Had I known that this thread would cause such an uproar, I would have finished the whole thing first and then posted all at once. But I do not claim to be Nostradamus; and from the yawns I got from my kin-mates, and in-game friends when I first went over the ideas in the original post, I had a reasoned basis for thinking what I wrote would not be interpreted as "incendiary" or "extraordinary."
    Neither are the readers of your posts Nostradamus. I don't want to keep repeating things, but if you think calling experienced players uninformed is not going to be interpreted as incendiary, then you are really showing your naivety I'm afraid.

    But then I suppose one can never over-estimate the reading comprehension skills of your interlocutors in the Internet.
    A veiled passive aggressive insult? Really? And you want me to take you seriously?



    Exactly how many repetitions do you want me to do? A CBR parse needs a healer; I am also waiting on cooldowns (if you think using CDs for parses of this nature constitutes "cheating," as some do, then that's also a different issue altogether). Further, since I don't write macros but manually or key-bind switch gear, I sometimes forget to switch from Baingrist to normal weapon or switch from CB buff armor to normal armor. (I am an old man, and this type of things happen rather frequently; my kin can tell you how often we wiped on FF Challenge with me tanking, because I forgot to switch back from Baingrist or CB armor and ended up doing 0 DPS on the first giant.) Should discontinued parses or bad parses from such mistakes count as a "sample"?
    At least 20. Personally I think 100 is a good sample size to do a decent statistical analysis. No, I don't have a problem at all with using CD's, but prefer if they are used in longer duration parses, i.e. minimum 3mins. That way the CD's supplement the DPS rather than dominate it. Yup, sometimes mistakes happens, that's the point isn't it? We don't necessarily WANT to know what the perfect parse is with everything going smooth like silk and all the crits and devs in the world alligning into one perfect minute. Parsing, and comparing parses, is only meaningful when we discuss REPRESENTATIVE values. NOT the outliers. That's why the sample size needs to be so big. It diminishes not only the effects of those stars alligning runs, but also those ones where things don't go so well and you forget to click something or other.

    The alternative is an exercise in futility. It is, UNREPRESENTATIVE and so a complete waste of time. Any conclusions drawn are irrelevant and can be argued back and forth until the end of days and would still be irrelevant Yes, I know that most other people do the same and so this is a general comment, not directed at you specifically.

    And once again: I was trying to illustrate a point that virtually every darn well-informed player knows: That the initially huge burst DPS gap between Champion and Hunter at 10 seconds or so (the duration of a Champion's Challenge) is not indicative of how the two classes progress DPS-wise over-time. If there was anything really surprising about my presentation, it was perhaps that the initial burst gap is even larger than I (or others) may have thought; but that does not change the underlying point.
    Yup, but again, initial burst damage is irrelevant in my opinion.

    You are making it sound like I was trying to prove that the moon was made of cheese.
    I think you've misinterpreted my post for more than it was. I agreed with you on the whole, just hated the way you went about making your case. I just had two fundamental points I wanted to make, one was your lack of data, and the other was from comparing this incomparable hunter. That's all.

    Here, you have again totally missed the point of the comparison between my Hunter and my Champion, which Farasilion did not miss. I made the comparison precisely to show that even my rather mediocre Hunter does so much more burst than my much superior Champion. If I intended to prove--which you and Yelk (at least initially) seem to think--I would have compared my sustained DPS to those of the very best DPS Hunters on my server like Farasilion or asked forum Hunters like Gabredil. If there was "oh wow" number that I wanted to highlight: It wasn't my crit-luck parse of 4900 for 60 seconds; it was instead my Hunter parse of 7k for 10 seconds.
    No, your mediocre (with really good stats I might add), hunter does so much more initial burst. Regardless of whether we believe initial burst is relevant or not, can we at least qualify the difference between initial burst and regular burst, the former only being available at the beginning of a fight.

    Perhaps I should explain a little more about my discomfort with the use of your hunter as a comparison. The issue I have is not with the initial burst parse, but with the sustained 60s parse. I want to know how you were traited and what your rotation was for that. You see, you've already said you're not the best with your hunter, and based upon the passionate way you laid out the scene for your argument, I would assume that your enthusiasm for generating a representative parse may be diminished. In other words, subconsciously, you may have not tried as hard as you did with your champ, in order to exaggerate the difference. Your hunter, in my hands, for example, may have parsed 4.2k for 60s, we never know.

    And so the conclusions you draw from the comparisons, even though you have laid out the case for making them, appear biased and unnecessarily exaggerated. As such, the use of words such as "huge" seem hyperbolic. In someone else's hands, the difference may be more slight. What you have posted is NOT conclusive by any stretch of the imagination. I know that's not what you're claiming, but you're defending it as though it is.



    A very unfortunate cascade of ad hominem comments suffused with mischaracterizations and assumptions unbecoming of you. (For instance, I am not sure where you get this sense that I complain about not being picked for Raids when I have not missed a Raid in more than a year because I was not "picked"; and I sign up for well-over 90 percent of Raids.)
    I did not accuse you of complaining about not being picked for raids. I simply commented that the tone and ultimate formation of your post REMINDED me of those types of posts/remarks that some others have made. Just a whine that other classes have something that yours doesn't. Or if you want me to be more specific, a whine that other people don't understand that another class has something that your class doesn't (not that that thing matters anyway in anywhere other than the moors).



    Would you like to suggest where it would have been better?

    I chose here by default: "General" would have invited more misinterpretations and trolling/flame-fests (if that were possible); and I didn't want to put it in an individualized class forum, because it discusses two classes (and before I got diverted, it would have involved Guardians and Wardens, too); and it would have contained much concluding reflections about group aggro mechanics, too.
    Personally I would have gone in the Champ forums and made a second post in the Hunter forums with a one line outline of your post and a link for those who are interested. Just me though.


    Apologies for the wall and broken prose. I was responding to points in your post without properly breaking it up at times.
    Last edited by pibob314; Jun 04 2013 at 12:02 PM.
    Wulfhram (Hunter), Boborrin (Champ), Garrth (Captain) assorted others

  24. #24
    I notice three important things this thread brings up

    1. hunters micro-burst dps is way better than champ burst dps
    2. hunters and champs both do great dps (aoe and single target).
    3. champs have to take more damage/move/be at risk more to perform their role.


    I also agree with the guy who has the longest post I've ever seen on these forums about this: 5 parses does not a conclusion make. But it can still hint at a shady truth.

    And one minute does not even come close to true sustained dps. One minute is still considered "burst". If you want to know true sustained dps you either parse for 5+ minutes so you can see dps without cooldowns.

    you can also average all your 1 minute parses (even the baingrist mainhand ones ) if you want to know what true burst dps is (rather than taking the highest parse).

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Ooooo. Rather defensive. Ok, I'll bite....
    But I think your initial response was rather "aggressive." Or "passive aggressive" as you characterize my response later.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post

    It [that is, the claim attributed to me that Champions do more sustained DPS than Hunters] should be though, because it's true, though the difference for equally well played and geared champs and hunters is not nearly as much as it once was.
    I tend to not agree, though I am not sure whether we can agree upon a standard to test this, since both 75 dummies and 85 dummies present problems of accuracy. Obviously 75 dummies greatly favor Champions due to the fact that we obtain greater benefits than Hunters via Critical Hits; but 85 dummies have such higher mitigations and presumptively Critical Defense that it does not seem to mimic real-world mobs either.

    But for whatever it is: It appears to me that Hunters clearly do higher parses than Champions on the 85 dummy for a 60 second parse. I know I can't reach the numbers Farasilion can on 85 the dummy (on the flip-side, she can't reach my numbers on the 75 dummy).

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    O
    Erm ok. How many times in an encounter do you get to "open the fight". Unless you have hunters purposefully dying so that they can be rezzed out of combat just so they can get that little bit of extra burst, I really don't see how improved focus is relevant. Ok, that was a bit flippant. My point is, there are only really two times where burst damage is important. The first is during the handful of boss fights/encounters where one calls for max dps, oathbreakers etc due to some encounter mechanic. Almost invariably, NONE of these occasions occur at the beginning of the fight. The second scenario is PvP but you already disqualified that from the discussion.

    To address the point about many Hunters beginning fights like that, I would say that from my experience, most Hunters don't do that, and if they do, they do so with tanks who know, or should know exactly how to hold agro from them during this period. As such, it is a non-issue. How well hunters can burst at a principally irrelevant time is a non-point. How well hunters can burst when called upon to do so, i.e. towards the end of a boss fight, IS a relevant point, and I simply point out, that during these times, improved focus is by and large, unavailable.
    Looks like our experiences grouping with Hunters differ dramatically, and I guess there is no resolution to this particular aspect of our debate. But again, consider the context of how this post emerged. Fornost Earth run, final boss (25 second or shoter fight?), Champ tanking, and the Hunters use Improved Focus, got aggro from the Champ tank, and talked about the Champion having low DPS.

    An even better example is something like Sambrog, where just about every Hunter I have ran with (including myself) open with Improved Focus. Simply put, in my experience even more experienced, excellent Hunters will "go nuts" at the start if they think there is a good chance they will survive. And the current "face-roll" nature of much of the content make this kind of Hunter behavior rather ubiquitous.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post

    I think this point may be a fundamental disagreement we have. If so, I don't think there is any argument either of us can make to convince the other otherwise and so I suggest we refrain from trying.
    Well, if our biggest disagreement is whether Improved Focus-fueled burst constitutes true burst, then I guess we do not have much to argue about indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    If you are surprised, then I'm sorry. When you start a thread by saying things like "extremely experienced, well-informed LotRO Raiders are remarkably uninformed", you have to expect that it will rub people the wrong way. If not, then I'm afraid your choice of phrasing was a bit naive.
    Okay, my initial tone may have alienated some readers; but really, was it that "incendiary"? Have you read similar threads Yelk has started?

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    I'll just say that, going back to my previous point about initial burst being a type of outlier data which is flattened out over time, for the most part for these kind of theorycrafting threads, should be disregarded.
    I don't think the 10-second burst data that is "flatted out over time" is so irrelevant, because it drives much of the casual (and some Raider) player-base impression that Hunter DPS is far superior relative Champions throughout.

    Again, this may not be your impression; but it seems to me the general impression of the player-base (sorry, no scientific data, but I can go back through those bona fide "who does more DPS" threads, and you will see a lot more folks arguing their lots with Hunters than Champions--even during RoI where there seems to have been clear-cut evidence).

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    A post that begins "I designed and performed an experiment" catches my attention, I qualify it for what it is, irrespective of anything else to avoid bias. That's only fair.
    LOL, okay, it sounded more "scientific" and grand than it really was. I should have said "a small, unscientific experiment" and qualified it several more times!

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Two things here: There are quite a lot more relevant DPS stats that I personally would have liked to see. Primarily trait set ups and specifically for the Hunter, were you improved fleetness or cool burn? It's quite important you see. I think LI's and particularly settings are also rather relevant. Ok, perhaps the details of the skill rotation are somewhat over the top, but in terms of things that are relevant to ones DPS, a few stats in the character panel are just the tip of the iceberg.
    I can't get into the game right now, and I certainly can't tell you with perfect accuracy from the top of my head, especially since I take the Hunter out pretty much only when we are doing Flight or farming NCF earrings for my Guardian friend.

    But I can give you a rough idea of Traits and rotation and some other more relevant data. I Traited Cool Burn: Rotation was Heart Seeker opening (of course with Improved Focus and Dev Pot), then the usual BA/PS spams. Gear-wise, as I have said, I have no class gold but I do use both the Burn Hot and the Fleetness 2 piece Greater Erebor sets, and the 4 piece mitigation set bonus instead of the Heart Seeker proc bonus.

    LI-wise, I really have to get in game to remember: But I recently changed out of the Crit/Morale Endings in favor of either Crit/Dev or Mastery/Dev Endings. Otherwise, no morale-hogging Relics; and I have the standard Hunter legacies, and both LIs are fully-crystaled First Agers.

    In case it was not clear: While the 4.9k was the highest Champion parse I've seen, the 3.1k Hunter parse was not. Again, to repeat: I was working with major loss that day, and I have parsed 3.5k with worse equipment and LIs in the past (still not exceptional). So maybe that should have been made clear, but I would have in the follow-up posts, and I did say that I had major net problems in the original post.

    Still, the issue was not to highlight sustained DPS gap or non-gap between the two classes but the massive burst DPS gap.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    I don't see why this is important. Am I to refrain from posting a response or critique of part I of your "series" until all parts have been finished? Is that the point? Am I not allowed to form an opinion of, and in a forum of free speech, express my opinion on the Game of Thrones books yet because they haven't all been written yet? Can you not see that that is a ludicrous point? Take responsibility for what you post. If it isn't finished, don't post it. If it cannot stand alone for what it is, don't post it. If it require other posts in order for it to be what you want it to be, then for gods sake, post them. Don't complain that people don't understand what you meant because you hadn't said it yet. That's preposterous.
    This is a strong critique, and probably my cardinal error. Nonetheless, one would expect someone be given at least a day or two before letting the dogs lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    At least 20. Personally I think 100 is a good sample size to do a decent statistical analysis.
    I don't think it's even possible for me to perform 20 sample tests at a time, much less 100 (!), given the long duration of CDs. (And as my kin-mates will well attest; I have to eat, too, and I eat rather a lot!) So (and this may be the nub of our educational and professional differences) should no one say anything tentatively unless backed with air-tight scientific precision?

    Moreover, I think your over-emphasis on "scientific" or "statistical" validity is to some extent misplaced. We return to my earlier point that the amount of data required depends on the nature of claims made or your "extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence." Fine. But you already seem to concede that Hunter burst is indeed far superior when Improved Focus is thrust into the equation. So what "extraordinary claims" am I making? If I were to try to make the case that--as Yelk and other Hunters thought--Champions do more sustained DPS than Hunters, then perhaps I would indeed need a bigger sample from my Champion and compare it to an equally bigger sample from the top Hunters. But the focus was on burst DPS.

    And in this context, when my mediocre Hunter can hit 7k, and my far superior Champion couldn't reach even 5k, do we need to really do more 10 second parses to see that Hunters do vastly more burst DPS than Champions? The small sample is so telling that it requires no more investigation, one would think. I could parse until Second Coming on my Champion, and I will never reach 7k DPS in 10 seconds. Never ever. This is just common sense. And believe me, I am in a profession where I have to prove every "conclusory" claims with evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Yup, sometimes mistakes happens, that's the point isn't it? We don't necessarily WANT to know what the perfect parse is with everything going smooth like silk and all the crits and devs in the world alligning into one perfect minute. Parsing, and comparing parses, is only meaningful when we discuss REPRESENTATIVE values. NOT the outliers. That's why the sample size needs to be so big. It diminishes not only the effects of those stars alligning runs, but also those ones where things don't go so well and you forget to click something or other.
    I am not looking for "the perfect parse." I am looking for parses where there is no colossal mess-ups where I forget to switch out of a level 65 weapon or level 75 PvP armor. Otherwise, I'd stop parsing every time I dip below 4k or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    I think you've misinterpreted my post for more than it was. I agreed with you on the whole, just hated the way you went about making your case.
    I know you know this, but the benefit of would-be trolling Hunters: I want to say once again I did not make the argument that Champions do more sustained DPS than Hunters. So you are "agreeing" with, at best, the "me" of the RoI days.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post

    Perhaps I should explain a little more about my discomfort with the use of your hunter as a comparison. The issue I have is not with the initial burst parse, but with the sustained 60s parse. I want to know how you were traited and what your rotation was for that. You see, you've already said you're not the best with your hunter, and based upon the passionate way you laid out the scene for your argument, I would assume that your enthusiasm for generating a representative parse may be diminished. In other words, subconsciously, you may have not tried as hard as you did with your champ, in order to exaggerate the difference. Your hunter, in my hands, for example, may have parsed 4.2k for 60s, we never know.
    You bring an important point about intrinsic bias of the researcher unconsciously skewing the result, but I want to point out that there is an opposite dynamic at work here, too. That is, I can make the argument that if anything I have an incentive to make my Hunter sustained parse look good. This is because everyone in my kin and the raiding community on my server knows what my Champion can do; in contrast, they (justifiably) think my Hunter is a newb. In fact, many friends/kin-mates I regularly instance with cringe when I am bringing out the Hunter instead of the Champion.

    So if anything, I want to inflate my Hunter over my Champion than the vice versa.

    I think perhaps the most telling difference is how my data has been received on this forum and on my server. Here (with the exception of Champions like Vodomir and Shintagh) the disbelief has to do with my 4.9k Champion 60 second parse (which I didn't even screenshot at the premise because I didn't think of it such a big deal); with my in-game friends, the disbelief has to do more with my 7k Hunter 10 second parse.

    I suppose sometimes the familiarity with--and thus the credibility of--the speaker is more important than the content of what he says, as they teach in rhetoric.

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post

    I did not accuse you of complaining about not being picked for raids. I simply commented that the tone and ultimate formation of your post REMINDED me of those types of posts/remarks that some others have made. Just a whine that other classes have something that yours doesn't. Or if you want me to be more specific, a whine that other people don't understand that another class has something that your class doesn't (not that that thing matters anyway in anywhere other than the moors).
    Thanks for clarification. But I did in follow-up posts wanted to "whine" about how Champions need more burst DPS--which I have done elsewhere too (most prominently in the official Champion suggestions thread).

    Quote Originally Posted by pibob314 View Post
    Personally I would have gone in the Champ forums and made a second post in the Hunter forums with a one line outline of your post and a link for those who are interested. Just me though.
    We will simply disagree for many reasons, not the least of being that I do not want to open up two threads on the same exact topic.
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