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  1. #1

    Making Renown Raid-wide

    I thought i would be a good idea if turbine made renown raid wide in a moors raid. Because what if there is a kinship running around with maybe 7 people and the 7th person is all alone in there group and it is hard to get renown and you end up having to gold tag everything and not get any killing blows especially if you are single target/healing class. Thoughts?

  2. #2
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    I agree, ranking is way too hard at the moment. I mean, sometimes I even have to hit stuff.
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  3. #3
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    I don't even know what you're asking
    but i'm pretty sure renown is moors-wide now
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  4. #4
    While I do get your point,

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    I agree, ranking is way too hard at the moment. I mean, sometimes I even have to hit stuff.
    This ^^ 40 renown in a raid is sad... Very sad.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by drummer500 View Post
    I thought i would be a good idea if turbine made renown raid wide in a moors raid. Because what if there is a kinship running around with maybe 7 people and the 7th person is all alone in there group and it is hard to get renown and you end up having to gold tag everything and not get any killing blows especially if you are single target/healing class. Thoughts?
    1. Take the raid leader out back and beat him/her.
    2. Replace said raid leader.
    3. Hope new raid leader knows the concept of balancing groups.
    4. Should step 3 fail, rinse and repeat from step 1.
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  6. #6
    I agree with the idea of raidwide inf/reknown gains that are split by the percentage of the players in the raid. It should work that way logically. or at least we have no idea as to why it doesn't.

    But since this is something that is occurring it is up to the raid leader to be conscious of his grouping. Good raid leaders know how to effectively set up groups. Such as knowing WL's are good with 5 other people because alot of their heals are 6 target.

    Basic competence for a raidleader.
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  7. #7
    I think the op is implying that in order to get any inf/ren from a kill someone in your group has to hit the target. In this instance say a "raid" of 7 toons are together and a warg is alone in group 2, while the rest are all in a group to maximise healing (that making sense as the warg is most likely to be out of range of group heals in terms of maximising healing.)

    If, in this instance, the raid engages 6 targets but the warg only hits 3 of them, as there is no ranged in that group; once the 6 are dead, the full group has made the inf for 6 kills, while the warg, only 3.

    Hence the op asks why cannot ren/infamy just be spread over a raid rather than be dependent on a tag for each group. At least thats how i read it.

    Sure if this were the case a ba in the solo group would solve the problem, but since it can adversely effect common sense raid builds it might be a pain.

    At least i think thats what the op is trying to ascertain.
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  8. #8
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    Renown is group wide. Which means someone in your group has to tag the player in order for your group to get renown. If you are by your lonesome in your own group and you dont get to hit anything, you don't get any renown.

    I can see the point. It does kind of suck when everyone gets 500 inf and you get 150 cause you don't have AOE or what not.

    Should be a fairly easy fix I think and something that should be rebuilt to make it raid wide.

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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    Renown is group wide. Which means someone in your group has to tag the player in order for your group to get renown. If you are by your lonesome in your own group and you dont get to hit anything, you don't get any renown.

    I can see the point. It does kind of suck when everyone gets 500 inf and you get 150 cause you don't have AOE or what not.

    Should be a fairly easy fix I think and something that should be rebuilt to make it raid wide.
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  10. #10
    Yes! The bane of all greenies if they join a raid as the 7th, 13th or 19th person!

    Who wants a greenie inside the main groups right?

    Had this many a time when starting fresh on server, fix ty!
    Shakuru scored a devastating hit on Retarius for 8,094 Scottish damage to morale.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Limmy View Post
    Yes! The bane of all greenies if they join a raid as the 7th, 13th or 19th person!

    Who wants a greenie inside the main groups right?

    Had this many a time when starting fresh on server, fix ty!
    Sauron forbid the greenies put forth any discernible effort...

    Though really, are there "greenies" anymore with the ez mode gear for freeps and store skills for creeps?

    Not to mention a good raid leader knows how to balance their groups (as has been stated). And in my experience if someone is going to end up alone, the raid leader generally verifies the person is ok with it (though that's just with the leaders I've had personally... seems to me the sensible and nice thing to do...)
    Last edited by xxforcardassia; May 28 2013 at 03:46 PM.
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  12. #12
    Or, you could, like, follow the target caller so whatever dies is what you tag as well. Or, AOE. Or, heal the main target caller just once during the entire fight.






    Or, yeah.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by xxforcardassia View Post
    Sauron forbid the greenies put forth any discernible effort...

    Though really, are there "greenies" anymore with the ez mode gear for freeps and store skills for creeps?

    Not to mention a good raid leader knows how to balance their groups (as has been stated). And in my experience if someone is going to end up alone, the raid leader generally verifies the person is ok with it (though that's just with the leaders I've had personally... seems to me the sensible and nice thing to do...)
    How much effort can you put in whilst dying in 10 seconds? ^^
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  14. #14
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    Here, there is another reason to encourage more zerging.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Maz-Thewhitehand View Post
    Here, there is another reason to encourage more zerging.
    Explain, ty.

    All it does is enable the 1/7th player to actually gain infamy for kills they might have missed coming back from spawn, or simply helping another player hence missing the window of contribution to get the infamy/renown.

    It seems like a weird way to code raids, with a simple fix, should have been put in the suggestion forums I guess, but it certainly won't increase the amount of zerging.

    <3 Twokay /taunt
    Shakuru scored a devastating hit on Retarius for 8,094 Scottish damage to morale.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limmy View Post
    Explain, ty.

    All it does is enable the 1/7th player to actually gain infamy for kills they might have missed coming back from spawn, or simply helping another player hence missing the window of contribution to get the infamy/renown.

    It seems like a weird way to code raids, with a simple fix, should have been put in the suggestion forums I guess, but it certainly won't increase the amount of zerging.

    <3 Twokay /taunt
    The word "more" was misused in this case, but if the 7th,13th or 19th decide to join the raid just to go afk then those people will get the inf as well as those doing the work, therefore the case is that you can make bigger groups with more afk'ers, in effectively zerging others.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Limmy View Post
    All it does is enable the 1/7th player to actually gain infamy for kills they might have missed coming back from spawn, or simply helping another player hence missing the window of contribution to get the infamy/renown.
    At what point does the person not contributing to the kill/fight deserve infamy/renown?

    If you're a healer and therefore helping another with heals, in the current model, you will get credit for what that person kills. So no loss there. If you're DPS and not following your RAT, that's your own loss (or your raid is extremely disorganized and you need to rethink how it's being run).

    One way or another, it comes down to a raid being run effectively and all players doing their jobs and contributing. If you (or any other player) are not contributing, why should points be awarded?
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  18. #18
    As a captain, it does irritate me that I miss out on infamy in groups that don't have range DPS (or the range DPS is currently dead) in the current raid, so while I'm buffing and rezzing, I get no floaties renown. Burglars and Captains notably get the shaft here. I shouldn't have to "heal tag" my own raid, that I am already supporting, to gain the infamy I have rightfully earned.

    This is a bug that should be fixed.

    And, let's keep this as a thread on the topic, rather than as a way to denigrate playstyles that don't mesh with your own.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by xxforcardassia View Post
    At what point does the person not contributing to the kill/fight deserve infamy/renown?

    If you're a healer and therefore helping another with heals, in the current model, you will get credit for what that person kills. So no loss there. If you're DPS and not following your RAT, that's your own loss (or your raid is extremely disorganized and you need to rethink how it's being run).

    One way or another, it comes down to a raid being run effectively and all players doing their jobs and contributing. If you (or any other player) are not contributing, why should points be awarded?
    Oversimplfying people's contributions in this way is not that helpful. In Limmy's example, a new green ba learning the ropes will spend a lot of time dead and not contributing to the rat target. Being dead because its targetted early does not necessarily make it unworthy of any infamy.

    But lets take a more extreme example: A warg scouts for a raid and its information is used to set up four sucessful flanks that wipe the freep raid each time due, in large part, to the shock and awe of that suprise attack. The warg also spots the fraid trying to take a keep and the craid arrives in time to wipe them there. Later the warg notices the freeps moving in for a flank and warns the craid, who manouvre around a rock and counter-turn the flank, saving many casualties and inflicting many from what would have otherwise been a disaster.

    Ok through all of that the warg was in a group alone and in two of the big fights was killed early and in the other four only managed to engage 3/4 of the freeps who were attacked. All the creeps walk away with 2,800 infamy except the warg, who manages 1,300. Simply by being in a group alone under this mechanic the warg player ends up with a fraction of the total gained. In terms of being deserving though the warg probably was one of the biggest contributors to the raids success.

    It would just make complete sense for raid infamy to be equitable through the raid. If someone is afk at grams they can be booted, if they are out there chipping in they deserve their cut. As per the captain above, come contributions are not as simplistic as they were nto on rat, or they did not heal anyone in group 3. etc..
    Last edited by Oldwiley; May 28 2013 at 07:27 PM.
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  20. #20
    Ive had raids where, on my defiler, i purposefully put myself in the group with the odd creep out. Because i can cross heal and effectively tag the other group inf so the greenie, who usually has 7 or less audacity and is usually red ranked, doesn't have to focus so hard on getting that kill tag and can actually focus on the strategies we're employing.

    Having the group wide only mechanic is what encourages zerging. Think about it.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Oversimplfying people's contributions in this way is not that helpful. In Limmy's example, a new green ba learning the ropes will spend a lot of time dead and not contributing to the rat target. Being dead because its targetted early does not necessarily make it unworthy of any infamy.

    But lets take a more extreme example: A warg scouts for a raid and its information is used to set up four sucessful flanks that wipe the freep raid each time due, in large part, to the shock and awe of that suprise attack. The warg also spots the fraid trying to take a keep and the craid arrives in time to wipe them there. Later the warg notices the freeps moving in for a flank and warns the craid, who manouvre around a rock and counter-turn the flank, saving many casualties and inflicting many from what would have otherwise been a disaster.

    Ok through all of that the warg was in a group alone and in two of the big fights was killed early and in the other four only managed to engage 3/4 of the freeps who were attacked. All the creeps walk away with 2,800 infamy except the warg, who manages 1,300. Simply by being in a group alone under this mechanic the warg player ends up with a fraction of the total gained. In terms of being deserving though the warg probably was one of the biggest contributors to the raids success.

    It would just make complete sense for raid infamy to be equitable through the raid. If someone is afk at grams they can be booted, if they are out there chipping in they deserve their cut. As per the captain above, come contributions are not as simplistic as they were nto on rat, or they did not heal anyone in group 3. etc..
    Maybe I was over simplifying, but don't ya think you're also overstating? You go on about this long and detailed ideal situation. How often does that happen? I'm willing to bet not that often. Sure, there are greenies all the time, but if people learn to pull their weight in a raid (greenies can do this, it's just not as "easy" as more highly ranked players) then there's no reason they need to worry about something like this.

    It still comes down to this: effective raid leaders. If the raid leader knows what he or she is doing and how to most efficiently setup their groups, then there shouldn't be much of an issue. It's already easy as all get out to acquire points now, why make it easier? Why encourage zerging and lazier players?
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by xxforcardassia View Post
    Maybe I was over simplifying, but don't ya think you're also overstating? You go on about this long and detailed ideal situation. How often does that happen? I'm willing to bet not that often. Sure, there are greenies all the time, but if people learn to pull their weight in a raid (greenies can do this, it's just not as "easy" as more highly ranked players) then there's no reason they need to worry about something like this.

    It still comes down to this: effective raid leaders. If the raid leader knows what he or she is doing and how to most efficiently setup their groups, then there shouldn't be much of an issue. It's already easy as all get out to acquire points now, why make it easier? Why encourage zerging and lazier players?
    Not really, this is a question of equitable gain in a raid mechanic. To fix the zerging, reduce the amount the entire raid is getting, well in favour of that. Thats what encourages zerging; its not the fault of some isolated greenie.

    Neither is it about effective raid build, makes no sense to build around a broken mechanic that can be fixed. It makes sense to fix it. This is simply about a poor design.
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  23. #23
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    It's fine the way it is. It's sort of a messed up way to deter huge raids and promote group vs group play.
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