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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorvlad View Post
    Yes, we all love when it happens. For future reference, if you go back a page when you receive a post fail message you should get back to your post edit where you can copy/paste it.
    Cheers, that'll help.



    Precisely the reason to crush Gondor *before* any pretender steps forward claiming the Ring. He had months for that while the Ring was in transit. As it is he only rushed with a real attack *after* the reveal of Isildur's heir.
    I've always assumed he counted on the Free Peoples disagreeing on who'd use the ring and turn to infighting, saving him a lot of trouble. The ring corrupts, after all.
    This is another example of him not understanding certain minds. Sauron assumes that everyone else thinks more or less like himself.
    "Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of the palantíri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him."
    Which again is why he never saw the whole let's-destroy-the-ring coming.



    The only force NW of the City was a detachment parked on the Road, the Rohirrim passed to the south of it after leaving the forest. The whole north and northwestern part was left wide open for many miles. Thus the siege circle around the city wasn't complete (some orcs busy destroying Rammas do not count as a force)
    In that case I stand corrected.
    Interesting, I didn't know that. Do you have any source?



    Actually the goals were the same, complete subjugation. And in fact after several thousand years of work Sauron had vast numbers coming from the east and the south. I mentioned my thoughts on Morgoth in the post above.
    No, subjugation was Sauron's goal. Morgoth's goal was far more mad, as Tolkien stated in his letters and in The History of Middle-earth: Morgoth's Ring. Morgoth wanted the destruction of all Eä, even his own creations (and unavoidably himself).

    "Morgoth had no ‘plan’: unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a ‘plan’.
    (...)
    Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own ‘creatures’, such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men.
    (…)

    Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was leveled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have ‘existed’, independent of his own mind, and a world in potential.

    Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.
    (...)
    Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low.

    Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavor to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and live on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’.

    Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently ‘incarnate’: for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

    Sauron, however, inherited the ‘corruption’ of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the ‘Music’ than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things."




    Agreed, it all takes a lot of preparation. Thing is, Sauron had almost 70 years of preparation after returning to Mordor in 2951 (governed from Morgul before that, so preparations began even earlier). The fact he started attacks on Osgiliath in June 3018 (under the Witch-king) means he was ready for invasion months prior to the Siege. And I noted somewhere above the lack of preparation in Ithilien so Sauron had to move all forces in a roundabout way from Mordor proper for any attack, which is illogical.
    And the only area he was attacking was general Osgiliath area (up to Cair Andros), these were at best test strikes. I described a classical invasion in some posts way above.
    So again, the invasion should've started while the Ring was still in transit and it definitely shouldn't have been a single attack on the most turtled up target.
    I agree to an extent, but unfortunately we do not know all the factors involved. Sauron is nothing if not logical, by which I mean he wouldn't wait for no reason.
    He might not have had enough manpower at the time and was breeding more orcs for his invasion during those years. After all, the orc population had gotten a severe blow at the end of his last reign and orcs tend to um....stabilise their own numbers when not united under one leader by lopping the heads off each other.
    Heck, for all we know he was still making alliances and/or conquering lands in the south and east to strengthen his forces.
    But this is only speculation. If Sauron did not have a good reason to wait, it would just be poor writing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Not really, they broke the siege at the same time sauron was defeated considering it was an easterling army it was purely circumstancial or in other words dwarves won against that army.
    Incorrect again I'm afraid. Read Appendices.
    "When news came of the great victories in the South, then Sauron's northern army was filled with
    dismay; and the besieged came forth and routed them, and the remnant fled into the East and troubled
    Dale no more. Then Bard II, Brand's son, became King in Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dáin's son,
    became King under the Mountain."

    -- J.R.R. Tolkien, Appendices of Middle Earth, Appendix B, "The Chief Days from the Fall of the Barad-dur to the end of the Third Age"



    It surely wasn't the Beornings burning heir land, thats sure only other possibility it was Sauron doing even if it was tribes of orcs they were all commanded by sauron at the time or the white hand.
    Oh I certainly agree there. But the Beornings are far from being powerful enemies as you claimed, which is why I doubt he'd bother to send his troops there when he could just order the local tribes to go burn some villages.



    Galadriel protection of Lorien reached even the outskirts of the woods, in other words the only part of lorien affected was the border.
    Yes, the borders. Where the forest had been burnt down. The city itself (and most of the forest surrounding it) was still fine.



    He lost the ring when he was at his peak in Mordor, when Numenor was drowned and only people trying to defeat him were sieging him for 7 years, I agree he is a coward but a very unlucky one too.
    When he lost the ring, he had already fallen pretty low and was far from his peak of power. His armies all but defeated, much of his personal power already lost due to the "accident" at Númenor and his earlier crafting of the ring, and we see him coming out to try and end it himself. It was a desperate gamble and he lost it. He should have rushed Minas Anor and Osgiliath right after sacking Minas Ithil. At least he learned from that mistake and did it right during WOTR.
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Jun 04 2013 at 09:58 PM.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post


    No, subjugation was Sauron's goal. Morgoth's goal was far more mad, as Tolkien stated in his letters and in The History of Middle-earth: Morgoth's Ring. Morgoth wanted the destruction of all Eä, even his own creations (and unavoidably himself).

    "Morgoth had no ‘plan’: unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a ‘plan’.
    (...)
    Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own ‘creatures’, such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men.
    (…)

    Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was leveled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have ‘existed’, independent of his own mind, and a world in potential.

    Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.
    (...)
    Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low.

    Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavor to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and live on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’.

    Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently ‘incarnate’: for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

    Sauron, however, inherited the ‘corruption’ of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the ‘Music’ than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things."
    Ill put this in a new light, Even in his madness Morgoth was more successful as a tactician he used all his tools and resources for this purpose, while Sauron "Master plan" was so flawed he is considered a fool tactcian.

    Ill explain:

    Morgoth victories were so profound that he did this three things:
    • Split his enemies and causing distrust among them
    • Anihilate the main strongholds opposing him, more precisely Gondolin
    • Focused his armies in key battles and winning (Battle of Unumerable tears)

    Incorrect again I'm afraid. Read Appendices.
    "When news came of the great victories in the South, then Sauron's northern army was filled with
    dismay; and the besieged came forth and routed them, and the remnant fled into the East and troubled
    Dale no more. Then Bard II, Brand's son, became King in Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dáin's son,
    became King under the Mountain."

    -- J.R.R. Tolkien, Appendices of Middle Earth, Appendix B, "The Chief Days from the Fall of the Barad-dur to the end of the Third Age"
    Ok you are right, maybe without Sauron defeated the siege would have won, Im not too sure though.


    Oh I certainly agree there. But the Beornings are far from being powerful enemies as you claimed, which is why I doubt he'd bother to send his troops there when he could just order the local tribes to go burn some villages.
    They are considered a threat by Sauron, so might be Chieftain Farmers and great warriors for all we know.


    When he lost the ring, he had already fallen pretty low and was far from his peak of power. His armies all but defeated, much of his personal power already lost due to the "accident" at Númenor and his earlier crafting of the ring, and we see him coming out to try and end it himself. It was a desperate gamble and he lost it. He should have rushed Minas Anor and Osgiliath right after sacking Minas Ithil. At least he learned from that mistake and did it right during WOTR.
    Another thing Sauron didn't do, learn from his mistakes I think he felt overconfident the ring eventually would return to him one way or the other, he lost it and he lost most of his power yet he didn't planned on recovering like make the war reach the shire and let hobbits get corrupted by the whole war, Sauron was clueless he just sent riders to recover it always a step behind when a competent captain is one step ahead of his enemy.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Ill put this in a new light, Even in his madness Morgoth was more successful as a tactician he used all his tools and resources for this purpose, while Sauron "Master plan" was so flawed he is considered a fool tactcian.

    Ill explain:

    Morgoth victories were so profound that he did this three things:
    • Split his enemies and causing distrust among them
    • Anihilate the main strongholds opposing him, more precisely Gondolin
    • Focused his armies in key battles and winning (Battle of Unumerable tears)
    Split his enemies and causing distrust among them -> Sauron did that too, with Númenor and with the Dwarves after he gave the Seven.
    Anihilate the main strongholds opposing him -> Sauron did that too, with Númenor and with Eregion (though Eregion wasn't exactly a stronghold, more like a bunch of cities and villages spread out over the landscape).
    Focused his armies in key battles and winning -> Sauron did that too, with Eregion, Minas Ithil and Osgiliath.



    They are considered a threat by Sauron, so might be Chieftain Farmers and great warriors for all we know.
    Why do you think Sauron considers the Beornings to be a threat?




    Another thing Sauron didn't do, learn from his mistakes
    Clearly he does learn, since the tactic he didn't use in SA (rushing Minas Anor) and what caused him to lose the whole war, he finally did right in TA.
    He made an incedible flaw in SA by not crushing Minas Anor right after taking Minas Ithil, and within a year Minas Anor summoned help from Lindon, Rivendell, Greenwood, Lothlorien and Khazad-dûm. They all came and defeated Sauron together. In TA he rushed Minas Tirith right after taking Osgiliath while at the same time keeping Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Erebor and the various southern cities in Gondor busy so they couldn't come. The only allies Minas Tirith had left were Rohan (which Saruman had failed to defeat or significantly stall), Rivendell and Lindon (which were both too far away to send help in time, due to Sauron's rushing).
    If not for Aragorn's dead army freeing the southern cities and the Woses showing the Rohirrim how to bypass Sauron's army (and to a lesser extent, the Valar's help with the weather), he would have captured Minas Tirith before dawn.


    I think he felt overconfident the ring eventually would return to him one way or the other, he lost it and he lost most of his power yet he didn't planned on recovering like make the war reach the shire and let hobbits get corrupted by the whole war, Sauron was clueless he just sent riders to recover it always a step behind when a competent captain is one step ahead of his enemy.
    1. He didn't know who had the Ring until Gollum was caught and told him.
    2. the Shire was an unknown land except by Breelanders, the Rangers guarding it, some of the Rivendell scholars, a handful of Erebor dwarves and the White Council. None of them would have told Sauron where it was. Not even Gollum knew its location and Saruman kept the knowledge to himself. The only reason Sauron even found it was because the Nazgûl squeezed the information out of Saruman's servants on their way to the north.
    3. Had he known where the Shire was, and had he known the ring was there, he still wouldn't have been able to simply march straight through Gondor and Rohan.
    Which is where the ringwraiths come into play, small enough in number to pass through Gondor without notice, but powerful and trustworthy enough to take the ring back.
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Jun 06 2013 at 06:55 PM.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Split his enemies and causing distrust among them -> Sauron did that too, with Númenor and with the Dwarves after he gave the Seven.
    Anihilate the main strongholds opposing him -> Sauron did that too, with Númenor and with Eregion (though Eregion wasn't exactly a stronghold, more like a bunch of cities and villages spread out over the landscape).
    Focused his armies in key battles and winning -> Sauron did that too, with Eregion, Minas Ithil and Osgiliath.
    Seriously?

    Destroying Numenor and giving the seven is more like making their enemies unite, the seven taking off the rings, Numenor decendants settling next to Mordor for payback, it all backfired to Sauron.

    Key victories I only count Minas Ithil and Angmar, Eregion wasn't in his control.


    Why do you think Sauron considers the Beornings to be a threat?
    Orcs were sent there, who knows what else, Sauron or Saruman consider it a threat because of the tactical point they hold which is the south of the Anduin, Also not taking in consideration the Hobbit which reveals beornings are more than meets the eye.

    Clearly he does learn, since the tactic he didn't use in SA (rushing Minas Anor) and what caused him to lose the whole war, he finally did right in TA.

    He made an incedible flaw in SA by not crushing Minas Anor right after taking Minas Ithil, and within a year Minas Anor summoned help from Lindon, Rivendell, Greenwood, Lothlorien and Khazad-dûm. They all came and defeated Sauron together. In TA he rushed Minas Tirith right after taking Osgiliath while at the same time keeping Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Erebor and the various southern cities in Gondor busy so they couldn't come. The only allies Minas Tirith had left were Rohan (which Saruman had failed to defeat or significantly stall), Rivendell and Lindon (which were both too far away to send help in time, due to Sauron's rushing).
    If not for Aragorn's dead army freeing the southern cities and the Woses showing the Rohirrim how to bypass Sauron's army (and to a lesser extent, the Valar's help with the weather), he would have captured Minas Tirith before dawn.
    Minas Arnor was a very protected stronghold when SA happened he only took control when the North lost help with the South, he tried to separate North and South he eventually did it but lost control of North, how does that make him learn from his mistakes?

    If he had learned something, he wouldn't have attacked South and instead attacked cooperatively with Saruman both Rohan, IronHills, Eregion, Rivendell, Lindon, then Gondor.

    If he had learned something he wouldn't defy Gondor until he had sufficient forces to do it.


    1. He didn't know who had the Ring until Gollum was caught and told him.
    2. the Shire was an unknown land except by Breelanders, the Rangers guarding it, some of the Rivendell scholars, a handful of Erebor dwarves and the White Council. None of them would have told Sauron where it was. Not even Gollum knew its location and Saruman kept the knowledge to himself. The only reason Sauron even found it was because the Nazgûl squeezed the information out of Saruman's servants on their way to the north.
    3. Had he known where the Shire was, and had he known the ring was there, he still wouldn't have been able to simply march straight through Gondor and Rohan.
    Which is where the ringwraiths come into play, small enough in number to pass through Gondor without notice, but powerful and trustworthy enough to take the ring back.
    If he had more tactical thinking he would used the palatir to know the exact location, searching himself in other words, but yeah the riders were the only tools he could use for looking for the ring.

    The other tool he didn't use is to create mistrust of elves, dwarves and men, so eventually they showed with the ring, he instead united them more than ever.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Seriously?

    Destroying Numenor and giving the seven is more like making their enemies unite, the seven taking off the rings, Numenor decendants settling next to Mordor for payback, it all backfired to Sauron.

    Key victories I only count Minas Ithil and Angmar, Eregion wasn't in his control.
    The main power of Númenor was destroyed, Gondor and Arnor were only a faint shadow of the power Númenor had been. Sauron managed to get rid of Arnor and its sister Gondor was constantly near the edge of death until after WOTR. In contrast Númenor had been such a power to easily defeat Sauron when he had subdued Middle-earth.
    The Seven managed to sow distrust between Dwarves and Elves, and amongst the Dwarfclans. And why do you think the Dwarves took off their rings? The Elves took them off, Men and Dwarves kept them on.




    Orcs were sent there, who knows what else, Sauron or Saruman consider it a threat because of the tactical point they hold which is the south of the Anduin, Also not taking in consideration the Hobbit which reveals beornings are more than meets the eye.
    It's the northern part of the Anduin, not south. I don't really see why it's a tactical point.
    Only descendants of Beorn are skinchangers.



    Minas Arnor was a very protected stronghold when SA happened he only took control when the North lost help with the South, he tried to separate North and South he eventually did it but lost control of North, how does that make him learn from his mistakes?
    Try it again in english please?
    Seriously I don't understand what you're trying to say here after "Minas Arnor was a very protected stronghold".


    If he had learned something, he wouldn't have attacked South and instead attacked cooperatively with Saruman both Rohan, IronHills, Eregion, Rivendell, Lindon, then Gondor.
    This was already explained, he was forced to attack Gondor first due to Aragorn.

    If he had learned something he wouldn't defy Gondor until he had sufficient forces to do it.
    He had. He had barely shown 1/6 of his forces during WOTK, it was only his first wave he had sent in.
    I don't think you understand that the events in The Lord of the Rings were only the beginnings of a real war, a war which was cut short the instant the ring was destroyed. It was over before it had really started, each side had dealt one blow and that was it.




    If he had more tactical thinking he would used the palatir to know the exact location, searching himself in other words, but yeah the riders were the only tools he could use for looking for the ring.
    I agree, but then the book would have been very short.



    The other tool he didn't use is to create mistrust of elves, dwarves and men, so eventually they showed with the ring, he instead united them more than ever.
    See previous replies, this was explained.
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Jun 06 2013 at 07:44 PM.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

 

 
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