Cheers, that'll help.
Originally Posted by Egorvlad
I've always assumed he counted on the Free Peoples disagreeing on who'd use the ring and turn to infighting, saving him a lot of trouble. The ring corrupts, after all.
Precisely the reason to crush Gondor *before* any pretender steps forward claiming the Ring. He had months for that while the Ring was in transit. As it is he only rushed with a real attack *after* the reveal of Isildur's heir.
This is another example of him not understanding certain minds. Sauron assumes that everyone else thinks more or less like himself.
"Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of the palantíri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him."
Which again is why he never saw the whole let's-destroy-the-ring coming.
In that case I stand corrected.
The only force NW of the City was a detachment parked on the Road, the Rohirrim passed to the south of it after leaving the forest. The whole north and northwestern part was left wide open for many miles. Thus the siege circle around the city wasn't complete (some orcs busy destroying Rammas do not count as a force)
Interesting, I didn't know that. Do you have any source?
No, subjugation was Sauron's goal. Morgoth's goal was far more mad, as Tolkien stated in his letters and in The History of Middle-earth: Morgoth's Ring. Morgoth wanted the destruction of all Eä, even his own creations (and unavoidably himself).
Actually the goals were the same, complete subjugation. And in fact after several thousand years of work Sauron had vast numbers coming from the east and the south. I mentioned my thoughts on Morgoth in the post above.
"Morgoth had no ‘plan’: unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a ‘plan’.
Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own ‘creatures’, such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men.
Melkor could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was leveled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have ‘existed’, independent of his own mind, and a world in potential.
Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.
Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low.
Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavor to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and live on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’.
Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently ‘incarnate’: for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.
Sauron, however, inherited the ‘corruption’ of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the ‘Music’ than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things."
I agree to an extent, but unfortunately we do not know all the factors involved. Sauron is nothing if not logical, by which I mean he wouldn't wait for no reason.
Agreed, it all takes a lot of preparation. Thing is, Sauron had almost 70 years of preparation after returning to Mordor in 2951 (governed from Morgul before that, so preparations began even earlier). The fact he started attacks on Osgiliath in June 3018 (under the Witch-king) means he was ready for invasion months prior to the Siege. And I noted somewhere above the lack of preparation in Ithilien so Sauron had to move all forces in a roundabout way from Mordor proper for any attack, which is illogical.
And the only area he was attacking was general Osgiliath area (up to Cair Andros), these were at best test strikes. I described a classical invasion in some posts way above.
So again, the invasion should've started while the Ring was still in transit and it definitely shouldn't have been a single attack on the most turtled up target.
He might not have had enough manpower at the time and was breeding more orcs for his invasion during those years. After all, the orc population had gotten a severe blow at the end of his last reign and orcs tend to um....stabilise their own numbers when not united under one leader by lopping the heads off each other.
Heck, for all we know he was still making alliances and/or conquering lands in the south and east to strengthen his forces.
But this is only speculation. If Sauron did not have a good reason to wait, it would just be poor writing.
Incorrect again I'm afraid. Read Appendices.
Originally Posted by Al.
"When news came of the great victories in the South, then Sauron's northern army was filled with
dismay; and the besieged came forth and routed them, and the remnant fled into the East and troubled
Dale no more. Then Bard II, Brand's son, became King in Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dáin's son,
became King under the Mountain."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien, Appendices of Middle Earth, Appendix B, "The Chief Days from the Fall of the Barad-dur to the end of the Third Age"
Oh I certainly agree there. But the Beornings are far from being powerful enemies as you claimed, which is why I doubt he'd bother to send his troops there when he could just order the local tribes to go burn some villages.
It surely wasn't the Beornings burning heir land, thats sure only other possibility it was Sauron doing even if it was tribes of orcs they were all commanded by sauron at the time or the white hand.
Yes, the borders. Where the forest had been burnt down. The city itself (and most of the forest surrounding it) was still fine.
Galadriel protection of Lorien reached even the outskirts of the woods, in other words the only part of lorien affected was the border.
When he lost the ring, he had already fallen pretty low and was far from his peak of power. His armies all but defeated, much of his personal power already lost due to the "accident" at Númenor and his earlier crafting of the ring, and we see him coming out to try and end it himself. It was a desperate gamble and he lost it. He should have rushed Minas Anor and Osgiliath right after sacking Minas Ithil. At least he learned from that mistake and did it right during WOTR.
He lost the ring when he was at his peak in Mordor, when Numenor was drowned and only people trying to defeat him were sieging him for 7 years, I agree he is a coward but a very unlucky one too.
Last edited by BirdofHermes; Jun 04 2013 at 09:58 PM.
[I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
[/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]