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  1. #1

    *spoiler* flights t2c mechanics/strat

    No one has gotten t2c down yet so I figure I'll share a couple things that seem to elude groups who attempt challenge. Please note...I get confused just thinking about it. There is a good chance I suck at explaining this so please bare with me.

    A quick breakdown on the theoretical time on where a group should be (10 waves = 1min a wave) for challenge progression.

    (waves)
    1. Initial
    2. Forced 1 (1 min marker)
    3. Forced 2 (2 min marker)
    4. Timed 1 (3 min marker)
    5 Timed 2 (4 min marker)
    6 Forced 3 (5 min marker)
    7. Forced 4 (6 min marker)
    8. Timed 3 (7 min marker)
    9. Timed 4 (8 min marker)
    10. Forced 5(9 min marker)

    Anytime you force a wave it automatically spawns a new wave 2 minutes later. If you force a wave at the 1 minute marker that means a wave will appear at the 3 minute marker. Above I use "forced" and "timed" to distinguish the waves. That is why you can't force a wave every minute otherwise 2 waves will spawn at the same time later on.

    And now for the confusing part. Whenever you force an additional wave you've just changed the mechanic of the wave you used to force it. Example: You use the "Initial" wave to force a wave at the 1min marker. Anytime a remaining mob (out of the 2 remaining) from "initial" wave is killed, it will force a new wave.

    Any wave Not​ used to force a new wave can be killed off 2 waves later.


    If I got anything wrong let me know. Or if someone can explain this better than me feel free to do so.
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    One possible strat:


    0min = Initial------------------ When 2 mobs left, new wave appears
    1min = Forced 1-------------- Keep 3 alive to spawn new wave -->combine with Initial wave and keep separate from others.
    2min = Forced 2--------------
    3min = Timed 1---------------
    4min = Timed 2--------------- On spawn kill Forced 2**
    5min = Forced 3-------------- On spawn kill Timed 1**
    6min = Forced 4-------------- On spawn kill Timed 2
    7min = Timed 3--------------- On spawn kill Forced 3
    8min = Timed 4--------------- On spawn kill Forced 4**
    9min = Forced 5-------------- On spawn kill Timed 3. Finish killing 100 mobs before 10mins.

    The Asteriks** denotes when to use the combined mob group to force a new wave. Each mob that dies from the combined group will spawn a new wave. Very important to only kill 1 at a time. Every wave after "Forced 1" make sure to keep 3 mobs alive (or four mobs if it's 4 warriors + 1 captain set). I'd add "keep 3 alive" to waves 3-10 but it gets redundant. And when I say "on spawn kill x wave" I mean kill the 3 remaining adds that were kept alive from that specific wave.
    Last edited by timmyloo22546; May 30 2013 at 06:34 PM.

  2. #2
    There is not a timed wave for every force spawned wave, in fact if you do it correctly there is no timed wave for this entire instance aside from 0:00. You control the clock. Unless forcing from an old forced results in that. Also if you get unlucky and get many 7-8 pop waves you really need closer to 11 or 12 waves to complete challenge.
    Last edited by YesMaam; May 25 2013 at 04:32 PM.
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  3. #3
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    If you look at the wave combinations and their numbers and do some simple math you get an average of 9 mobs per wave.
    That's if you count the 1 berserker per wave too ofc.

    So no , you don't need 10 waves , you need more.Unless you are extremely lucky.

    Now , i know that dev diary said something like 'you need to kill 10 waves to do it' , but it simply doesnt work.
    It's either not WAI OR the waves are 'tweaked' so that you always get 100 mobs in 10 waves , which would mean the more crowdy waves spawn more often.

    Which i doubt.

    Also , you don't get timed waves 2 minutes after you force spawn any wave.You get a timed wave 2 minutes after you spawned the LAST wave.

    Now the problem with this fight is that the math doesnt up.

    The fastest way to kill mobs ( and possibly the only way to make the math add up ) is offtank the captains far away.
    That would save you from their buffs , which includes a defence buff and the healing pools which makes things slower.

    However , you can't always move captains away , it depends on the wave and even if you can , you have the archers running to the offtank and cause chaos.

    And there is another thing , if you keep 2 mobs alive from each wave you will end up being overwhelmed.EVERYTIME.
    2 mobs from each wave is like a total of 10 extra mobs mid fight, in addition to the new wave that charges you.
    The only alternative is to 'reset' waves but that means you must wait , choose carefully what you keep alive , which is totally random and also spend time into killing older adds instead of killing a new wave that you have normally spawned.
    Again , math is all wrong.

    So , in a few words , this fight is fail.
    The only road that allows you to keep balance between the time and the add bar leads you to overwhelming situations.

    Also , i think the nerf pool was just a random tweek , just in case someone managed to do it by luck.
    It has happened before with the grim nerf in fire-frost which accidentally allowed completing the challenge by a zerg tactic , but it NEVER worked as intented.

    However , this time you can't zerg , so you can't do it.
    Last edited by BotLike; May 26 2013 at 08:17 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    If you look at the wave combinations and their numbers and do some simple math you get an average of 9 mobs per wave.
    That's if you count the 1 berserker per wave too ofc.
    Do the math again...
    average = (12+7+15+16+10+9+14)/7 = 11,86 mobs per wave
    And this is without the berserkers

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    And there is another thing , if you keep 2 mobs alive from each wave you will end up being overwhelmed.EVERYTIME.
    2 mobs from each wave is like a total of 10 extra mobs mid fight, in addition to the new wave that charges you.
    The only alternative is to 'reset' waves but that means you must wait , choose carefully what you keep alive , which is totally random and also spend time into killing older adds instead of killing a new wave that you have normally spawned.
    Again , math is all wrong.

    So , in a few words , this fight is fail.
    The only road that allows you to keep balance between the time and the add bar leads you to overwhelming situations
    The "overwhelming" situations only occur, if you do something wrong, because you don't have understood all of the mechanics.
    Maybe it's possible to do this fight like Yelk and tank 20 Adds at the end, but this is not how this fight is intended to be done. If you understand the other mechanics which are mentioned in the first post or in the other Thread about Flight T2, you could see, that this fight is possible.
    I think if you know how to do it and get the same people for 3 days motivated, you could clear this raid repeatable
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwargin-Vanyar View Post
    Do the math again...
    average = (12+7+15+16+10+9+14)/7 = 11,86 mobs per wave
    And this is without the berserkers
    Are you sure that cats count towards the challenge?
    All waves have from 7 to 10 mobs.
    average = (10+10+8+8+7+7+7)/7 = 8,14 mobs per wave. Or 9,14 with berserkers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dwargin-Vanyar View Post
    I think if you know how to do it and get the same people for 3 days motivated, you could clear this raid repeatable
    If it was that easy, the raid would be cleared already.

    The history of raids in LOTRO suggests that if a raid takes several months to be cleared, something is wrong in the mechanics or scaled damage.
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  6. #6
    I've been in Flights where we've accidentally killed a mob intended to be held over and then got a wave as soon as one add died, then got another shortly before the next scheduled wave spawn. This seems like a bug to me because honestly, no one can handle that many mobs at one time. Especially when you consider getting a 421 wave in there.

    I personally think the instance is broken in a number of ways.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasa View Post
    Are you sure that cats count towards the challenge?
    Yes.
    Just look at the Counter, when you kill a cat

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasa View Post
    If it was that easy, the raid would be cleared already.
    I don't know what other kins on other servers do, but on Vanyar the most kins don't get enough people together to try this raid constantly.
    Every time we can try it, we have a different setup with new players on key roles and so it is not really doable.

    And to the topic "buggy raid":
    We have done it repeatably to 5-6 minutes with killing enough mobs to be on par and don't have 10 mobs left for being tanked at the side.
    You could definitely do this with having one wave per minute and don't have to tank two of each wave through the whole fight. I think this raid was not cleared, because many kins do not get enough people together or are trying the wrong tactic like tanking 20 mobs at the end
    If you get more waves than one per minute, you are doing it wrong!
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwargin-Vanyar View Post
    Do the math again...
    average = (12+7+15+16+10+9+14)/7 = 11,86 mobs per wave
    And this is without the berserkers
    Can anyone confirm this ?
    Cats count ?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwargin-Vanyar View Post
    Yes.
    Just look at the Counter, when you kill a cat
    I looked. After 6 cats in a row the counter would not move. Any other mob would result in an instant increase of the counter.

    Think about it in a different way: when you do a standard T2 run you often end up with less than half the bar (red bar, counter of mobs) after 5 waves. If cats would count, you would always have more than 50%.

    Cats are just summoned pets. When you kill the very first mobs before the fight, cats are not even considered as real mobs. You can start the fight and get the first wave when the very first 2 cats are still alive.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasa View Post
    I looked. After 6 cats in a row the counter would not move. Any other mob would result in an instant increase of the counter.

    Think about it in a different way: when you do a standard T2 run you often end up with less than half the bar (red bar, counter of mobs) after 5 waves. If cats would count, you would always have more than 50%.

    Cats are just summoned pets. When you kill the very first mobs before the fight, cats are not even considered as real mobs. You can start the fight and get the first wave when the very first 2 cats are still alive.
    I logged the combat in a file and pasted in excel spreadsheet after doing 10 waves. I killed 130 mobs of which like 50 were cats and challenge did not complete. Just filter and delete cats and you'll see cats don't count. Berserker's do though.
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  11. #11
    I've tested the cats a long time ago and they didn't seem to count. Can't see I've paid attention to cats since they "fixed" flights.

    What I meant by "timed" waves is that if you spawn a new wave at 1 minute (clearly would be forced) then a wave will come at 3 minutes no matter what. Predictable would be better than "timed" i guess.

    Example: Force a wave at 1min, you have a wave coming at 3 minutes. Force another wave at 2 minutes, you have a wave coming at 4 minutes. Force another wave at 2min 59s then you get that wave + the wave that will be coming at 3minutes (because of the wave forced at the 1min marker) That is my experience. When first learning the wave mechanic we tried forcing waves every minute and kept getting double spawn at 3 minutes and didn't know why initially. But now I do.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    Example: Force a wave at 1min, you have a wave coming at 3 minutes. Force another wave at 2 minutes, you have a wave coming at 4 minutes. Force another wave at 2min 59s then you get that wave + the wave that will be coming at 3minutes (because of the wave forced at the 1min marker) That is my experience. When first learning the wave mechanic we tried forcing waves every minute and kept getting double spawn at 3 minutes and didn't know why initially. But now I do.
    Unless something changed with U11 , which i don't think it did when it comes to wave mechanics ,
    it works like this :

    If you force spawn at 1 minute , you expect a timed wave at 3 minutes.
    However , if you force-spawn on 2 minutes again , the timed wave at 3 minutes goes away and leaves it's place to a timed waved at 4 minutes.

    In a few words , you get a timed wave exactly 2 minutes after the last wave you force-spawned or spawned by timer.

    Now , you might have got double waves because of :
    1)Bug
    2)Mistaken kill
    3)Leaving 2 mobs alive on the warrior bugged wave ( no idea if they fixed that ).It appeared that 4 mobs worked as wave placeholders in this wave instead of 3.

    Problem is i haven't been in the raid for a while so things might have changed , although i didn't hear about any changes other than the pools.

    Kin interest is extremely low , as is mine since i moved to another game already.
    However , i did spend a lot of time wiping and brainstorming in this raid , so it still interests me to see the first kill :-)
    If we ever get one.

  13. #13
    After a timed wave (if u wait 2min and don´t force a wave) arrived u are able to kill JUST the wave spawned before.
    Problem: if u force a wave (necessary for cm) than u will never be able to kill the last 3-4 adds from the wave before. In CM u arent able to wait 2min without forcing a wave at any time... so u hav a little problem there.. (forcing a wave will reset the timer for the "timedwave")

    We simulated the fight
    On average u hav 33 seconds for one wave (leaving 3-2 adds alive (1 u need to force a new wave))
    Also u hav to kill about 17 waves
    And at the end there are standing 41 adds of which every single add would spawn an other wave
    (Calculations where made without mentioning berserkers are counting, so u hav a few adds/waves less)

    If we overlooked a mechanic than ok... but on the facts we got to know... I think this is impossible
    Last edited by Irowen; May 30 2013 at 06:14 AM.
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  14. #14
    I guess the mechanic should be:

    Timed wave every 2 minutes. (Tick)

    Forced wave when only 2 of a wave are left alive. (Tick - but bugged with one wave)

    Forced wave resets the CD of timed wave. (Cross - needs fixing as previous forced/timed waves overlap and stack)

    Finishing killing a wave does not spawn further waves. (Cross - needs fixing as additional mobs killed spawn additional waves)

    This way if you can kill a wave every 50 - 55 seconds you will complete the challenge. I think this is significantly harder than the wave every 2 minutes that we see with normal T2 mode and would justify the 'Challenge' tag. You'd also have 10-12 Beserkers to deal with as part of the fight.

    Do we think this is how the fight was intended? Would it be so hard to fix? I think this way it would be quite fun, especially as a hardcore Ardour Champ
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Irowen View Post
    After a timed wave (if u wait 2min and don´t force a wave) arrived u are able to kill JUST the wave spawned before.
    Problem: if u force a wave (necessary for cm) than u will never be able to kill the last 3-4 adds from the wave before. In CM u arent able to wait 2min without forcing a wave at any time... so u hav a little problem there.. (forcing a wave will reset the timer for the "timedwave")

    We simulated the fight
    On average u hav 33 seconds for one wave (leaving 3-2 adds alive (1 u need to force a new wave))
    Also u hav to kill about 17 waves
    And at the end there are standing 41 adds of which every single add would spawn an other wave
    (Calculations where made without mentioning berserkers are counting, so u hav a few adds/waves less)
    I guess I worded my statement poorly about any wave not used to force a wave can be killed off 2 minutes later. I used 2 minutes simply because I figured for whatever reason 10 waves would = 100 mobs according to developer diary and needing 10 waves for challenge would make the 1 minute intervals perfect. When testing it was simply On wave #4 I killed off adds remaining from wave #2. On Wave #5 I killed remaining adds from wave #3. It is important that mobs from those specific waves were never used to force a new wave. That is why when forcing a wave I specifically used a mob from the very first wave. If I used mobs from waves #2 and #3 then I wouldn't be able to safely kill those waves off when wave #4 & 5 spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    If you force spawn at 1 minute , you expect a timed wave at 3 minutes.
    However , if you force-spawn on 2 minutes again , the timed wave at 3 minutes goes away and leaves it's place to a timed waved at 4 minutes.


    That isn't true from my experience. That is why we decided not to force a wave at 3 minutes and wait it out which solved the issue of getting 2 waves close together.


    Last edited by timmyloo22546; May 30 2013 at 06:39 PM.

 

 

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