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  1. #1

    Farming isn't just happening in Withshaws

    Thanks for taking the time to stop by and read this thread, for those of you who haven't read my reply to a recent post on the Goblin Onslaught public instance, I recommend you also stop by there for some ideas I have input. Bare with me, this will be a journey to what I think can be done to change the level cap (endgame) climate of Lord of the Rings Online.

    First off, according to the title of the thread, I would like to point out that farming in this game is not just limited to public instances and landscape mob grinding.

    As much as people say they want variety in content, and multiple instances to run, since the unification of currency sadly, since all paths lead to the same destination, the paths of least resistance are taken, which is only human nature, no matter how much we like to tell ourselves otherwise.

    The problem stems back to pre-mirkwood with SoA and Moria instances. I will start with what I feel is the best example - Moria instances. There were Six Fellowship instances, Each one upon completion would drop one coin, and one lucky member of the group would win the coin, this coin would provide access to the entry level raid gear set, the Moria cluster set.

    Unfortunately, this became very grindy, because players would farm these instances day in and day out, and it all became luck of the draw of who walked away a winner, while 5 members of the group walked away with little or nothing to show for their time.

    One way that this was changed was the introduction of Moria medallions, medallions of Lothlorien, and Medallions of Dol-Guldor. This was a step in the right direction, because it allowed all players to work up to earning their pieces based on the amount of time spent in the instances.

    For a few days or weeks, this seemed like a great solution to the problem. But, as we are all aware, soon, it just became a farm. in GLFF, LFF, Regional, Kin Chats, all you would see is: LFM Grand Stairs, LFM Sword Halls, LFM HoC.

    What happened was, the runs that were easiest, and most time efficient, and those which dropped the highest rated teal items in the game became all that was run. It's sad that all of these wonderful instances went unplayed for so long because they either seemed tough, lengthy, or loot-insignificant.

    Fast-forward to the current endgame climate: Further unification of currency, based on Mark/Medallion/Seal barter system furthered the boring, repetitive farm. Today when you look in your chat channels for groups, you largely see: Sambrog Farm, OE farm, School farm. None of us are exempt from this path of least resistance, we have all taken the easiest road to acquire the gear necessary for our desired builds.
    ______________________________ ______________________________ _____________________________

    Here is where I propose a change, it may not be the best idea, but it is a start, and I think overall it would be better than what we have now. I will use Moria instances as an example for a few reasons. First, because I think they are wonderfully fun instances that I hope will be scaled in the future. Second because each instance provided one gear piece to the cluster set. GS=boots, Forges=Chest Fil Gashan=Gloves, Skumfil=Leggings, Sixteenth Hall=Shoulders, Dark Delvings=Helmet.

    Now as I mentioned before, the grind came when there was only one coin provided for the entire group to fight over. This created animosity between the new-comers and the long time grinders, those with bad luck against those with good, the casual vs. the consistent players.

    (I want to make it clear here, but the use of Moria instances is just a suggestion that fit the outline of my idea, I would like to see this implemented into other new content as well, as the general new currency system, as I do not want just scaled content.)

    My suggestion: Have the same setup, but change one key thing about the way the gear is acquired, which is similar to what we see with the currency unification system we have today. we see 2 items of a set costing 31 seals, 2 items of a set costing 61 seals, and 2 pieces of a set costing 91 seals, for a total of 366 seals.

    I would like to see Grand Stairs offer 5 Grand-Stairs (boot) medallions to each player who completes the instance

    I would like to see Forges offer 5 Forges (chest) medallions

    so on, so forth throughout the instances, so instead of grinding The School of Tham Mirdain or Sambrog over and over and over until the gear is earned, there would be a variety of instances to run, and to be required to run, to earn the full set of gear.


    Enter Teal loot: teal loot can be acquired in one of two ways, 1. From grinding the instances until the desired teal loot drops, aquiring 5 tokens for the instance each run.

    2. From a barter outside of the instance or at a skirmish camp for a large portion of that instance's medallions.

    It is completely common for someone to run an instance 10 times without getting the desired loot, this fact is what keeps experienced players cycling back throughout the old instances to help new players and to acquire their loot. This is not a problem, the problem lies with players doing the runs 200-300 times without seeing their gear piece drop, meanwhile they see it or the opposing class equivalent drop for countless other members of their changing or reoccurring Fellowships. So, a hefty instance medallion barter for these items would be fantastic, and would hold the interest of a lot of players.

    I can't tell you how many champs and burgs I know that quit the game or lost faith because they still don't have their boots which are essential to maximize DPS, same goes for many classes and many items.
    ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ ___________________
    Turbine has tried and failed to encourage running longer/more difficult instances by having them drop more seals, but the fact is: people don't care if the instance drops more seals, if it isn't very easy to do with a pug, and it isn't quick, they'd rather get their seals elsewhere.

    Which is why instead of INCREASING rewards for a certain instance,>>>> DECREASE<<<< requirement for that instance's loot item.

    Example: Let's say I want Annuminas Champion's Bracelet, We can all agree that Ost Elendil is the easiest most puggable run. Next would be Glinghant, and finally Haud Valendil being the longest and arguably most difficult of the annuminas instances.

    At 5 medallions per instance, per run I need:

    >>>>Annuminas Gold Champion's bracelet: 100 Ost Elendil Medallions, 75 Glinghant Medallions, and 50 Haud Valendil Medallions.<<<<

    This means it would take 20 runs in OE + 15 Glinghant runs + 10 Haud Valendil runs.

    >>OR Have it drop for you in the meantime, with current Random Number Generator Loot Chance, at which point, The Annuminas Medallions (having no further use provided you have all the loot you want) can be converted to Unified Seals/Marks/Medallions, which will still be used for Legendary Item upgrades among other things<<

    Personally, I would love this system even if it required more than 20+15+10 runs, I feel like doubling that number would still make it doable, and at least instead of a hope and a prayer for the items wanted, there would be distant promise of it.
    ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ ________________
    It is a shame when I feel like doing something different, even if it's just as simple as doing Maze or Thadur instead of Sambrog, or library instead of school, and I cannot get anyone to join my group because there is another instance that drops the same reward, and can be completed easily by a variety of group makeups in less time.

    If you care about the future of this game, and you agree or disagree with this post, please feel free to post your suggestions.

    Let's keep it constructive folks, if this thread gets derailed with arguments or criticisms that aren't constructive towards achieving a fun environment for players, I will open a new thread, and hopefully with the success of this thread, or the repetitive postings of similar ones, we will see some positive changes that we can all benefit from
    Last edited by EdalorTrailtamper; May 24 2013 at 11:30 PM. Reason: Added content based on suggestion from reply
    Manbeorpig 100 Beorning, Brandywine.

  2. #2

    Thumbs up

    Great analysis and proposed solution(s).

  3. #3
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    Agree so hard with all this. It's a shame that some instances are never run because "meh, the loot sucks" or "wah, it's too hard." If they scale the Moria instances, it'd the same now that you saw at 60/65; LFF GS T2, LFF HoC. Noone would ever run the 3mans (especially mirror hall) or Skum/DD. Something definetly needs to be done to get the lesser run instances some loving.

    It'd be interesting to see how something like this would play out.

  4. #4
    If people are not running a "more difficult" instance, then bump up the rewards for it. Interesting to see what would happen then.
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  5. #5
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    The ideas you've proposed are solid.

    Love the idea of incorporating multiple instances to change things up a bit. Hopefully this thread will get some attention.
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  6. #6
    Maybe a slayerdeed of enemies only found in the last pull
    before the boss, completing that offering a token for the
    item of that instance.
    Not many groups quit just before boss fight...

    Or a RNG modifier based on the number of runs through
    that instance, every time you run it, chances get bigger.

    anyway, this is defo an issue that need to be handled,
    both making all instances interesting AND loot distribution...

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Exion_Blade View Post
    If people are not running a "more difficult" instance, then bump up the rewards for it. Interesting to see what would happen then.
    Turbine has tried to do this with having longer/more difficult instance drop more seals, but the fact is: people don't care if the instance drops more seals, if it isn't very easy to do with a pug, and it isn't quick, they'd rather get their seals elsewhere.

    Which is why instead of making greater rewards for more difficult instances, I suggest my outlined plan. Instead of INCREASING rewards for a certain instance, DECREASE requirement for that instance's loot item.

    Example: Let's say I want Annuminas Champion's Bracelet, We can all agree that Ost Elendil is the easiest most puggable run. Next would be Glinghant, and finally Haud Valendil being the longest and arguably most difficult of the annuminas instances.

    At 5 medallions per instance, per run I need:

    Annuminas Gold Champion's bracelet: 100 Ost Elendil Medallions, 75 Glinghant Medallions, and 50 Haud Valendil Medallions.

    This means it would take 20 runs in OE + 15 Glinghant runs + 10 Haud Valendil runs.

    OR Have it drop for you in the meantime, with current Random Number Generator Loot Chance, at which point, The Annuminas Medallions (having no further use provided you have all the loot you want) can be converted to Unified Seals/Marks/Medallions, which will still be used for Legendary Item upgrades among other things

    Personally, I would love this system even if it required more than 20+15+10 runs, I feel like doubling that number would still make it doable, and at least instead of a hope and a prayer for the items wanted, there would be distant promise of it.
    Manbeorpig 100 Beorning, Brandywine.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdalorTrailtamper View Post
    Turbine has tried to do this with having longer/more difficult instance drop more seals, but the fact is: people don't care if the instance drops more seals, if it isn't very easy to do with a pug, and it isn't quick, they'd rather get their seals elsewhere.
    Untrue. Turbine has just been bad in calculating rewards. I guarantee if an instance takes twice as long but give more than 2x the reward, it will get run. But instead, they suck at maths, so they give, what, 6 seals for a 6-minute run and 12 seals for a 30-minute run. If, for instance, Lost Temple gave 30 seals, you can bet it would get run.

    Not that your idea isn't nice, but it involves a very complex loot system when it would only take minor tweaks with the current one.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Turbine has just been bad in calculating rewards. I guarantee if an instance takes twice as long but give more than 2x the reward, it will get run. But instead, they suck at maths, so they give, what, 6 seals for a 6-minute run and 12 seals for a 30-minute run. If, for instance, Lost Temple gave 30 seals, you can bet it would get run.

    Not that your idea isn't nice, but it involves a very complex loot system when it would only take minor tweaks with the current one.
    Great example, Lost Temple is a run which I would like to see run far more often, but the truth is, it only takes so long and seems so difficult because people don't run it, aren't familiar with what they have to pot when and where, and aren't familiar with the dangers and the damage they are presented with in the instance. If it was run more often, this would all be changed. I did Lost Temple just last night with my kin, for members who needed the deed to finish off their In Your Presence instance cluster deed. The run took us 20 minutes, and we facerolled the whole thing no deaths.

    We got 11 seals, in 20 minutes, compared to:

    School: 3 seals 7 minutes

    Sambrog: 3 seals 8 minutes

    If you look at the rewards to time completed, Lost temple is already more efficient for earning seals, but the implementation of the unified barter system turbine has used as a crutch causes it to gather digital dust


    I'm sure if we ran this more often we could streamline the time down very efficiently.

    If Lost Temple gave 30 seals, then instead of seeing LFM school farming, Sambrog farming, OE farming, all you would see is:

    LFM Lost Temple farming.

    The ideas I have outlined for reverting to a hybrid Cluster-Coin/Unified Barter system would fix this, require people to run all instances in a cluster, not just One or two.

    If turbine wants to continue this silly nonsense of farming one or two instances, they should offer single instances in the turbine store instead of clusters, because Why buy all of A cluster when you only run one instance
    Manbeorpig 100 Beorning, Brandywine.

  10. #10
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    This is a great suggestion!
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  11. #11
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    I'm not a huge fan of every (or anything near) piece of loot being acquirable via skirmish camp, but provided that the cost is set sufficiently high and requires a variety of instances run rather than mindlessly facerolling the same one over and over again I'd certainly support it. Your diagnosis of the problem is spot on, and apart from that one slight bit of unease with the proposed solution (and that mostly because I don't trust Turbine not to make it much too easy a course, given past and current performance more than disapproval of the suggestion itself) I pretty much agree with everything, +rep

  12. #12
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    Not to take anything away from the large body of text, thought, and effort that went into the OP, but you do realize that Turbine has been routinely downsizing the variety of currency barters? Going back to cluster medallions and such would be a reversal of present trends.

    People to rewards are like water to rock; they'll carve out canyons and paths of easiest flow rather naturally.

    I'm not saying the present loot system is necessarily satisfactory to me. It has it's ups and downs over what it was, and depending where in the gamer spectrum you are, these each can change and vary with perspective. I'd like something with a little less random, given how seemingly absurd the odds are for some instances and drops. I just don't want to see a system broken like it was with being able to do 3mans to get a 65 Hele raid set, as one example.
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  13. #13
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    It is my opinion that people are leaving because of this grind. If you have only one character, it is daunting enough. Some people I know have several end game characters and enjoy running the same content with different characters. I think the idea that making it harder to get stuff would work if people only have 1 character (even though in all the runs, my main has never gotten a gold drop and never has seen a recipe drop either), but there are some who have tons of pieces and others who have played four times as long with itching. It's way too disheartening. It's like the flower collection for the spring festival...I have to spend a solid hour one one character at least two days in a row, fight against other people for flowers and that might just get me the steed cosmetics, if I have good routes and don't run into competition. That's for one character. Now multiply that by the 17 characters I have. I don't have time for that. Now, if it was much easier, I'd probably (and have in the past) invested time because I KNEW my time was all I had to invest. Obviously there has to be a carrot, but when it's random AND time consuming, it's not fun. Oh, it must be fun to the folks who get lucky with the RNG, but Turbine has to hope then that those are the best paying customers. I can't rationalize spending that much time or any more money when it's no longer fun, it's just a grind.

    Players have been saying this for years. The problem is not that things haven't changed...it's that they have...for the worse. People I've played with for years are finally getting fed up. They've hit that threshold. Perhaps Turbine has been seeing how far they can push. Sure, I log in for the free rewards. Then I log out. If that's all they need, then they win.

    I don't know that there is a way to please everyone all the time (would there ever be?). I do think there is a way to please the better paying customers. I'm not lucky enough to have a lifetime subscription, which makes every payment an investment. Surely there are less of those being made? I guess that would be the true measure of the health of this system. Steady increases in drop rates might be implemented. Set a time where they are rare. The two month update comes out and it gets doubled. Three months out and drop rates get doubled again. Four months, new content...bump rates again and start a new clock on any new stuff. After six months, stuff gets added to barter vendors. After two months, barter values get halved (and people have been earning barter tokens or whatever since day one of the first update). By the time the gear becomes "common" there is new "elite" gear available, but time spent earns it for those who don't find enjoyment in grinding until our eyes bleed. I don't want to know how many runs I've been on, but I know it's nothing compared to how many some others have.

    The unfortunate part of the current system - if I don't get something and I've grinded, I probably stop playing. If I grinded and got lucky with a few pieces, I'm tired of grinding. If I get everything from grinding, there is nothing left to get.

    I don't know what the final straw will be for me, but it has already come for too many of my friends.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ArcticAurora View Post
    Not to take anything away from the large body of text, thought, and effort that went into the OP, but you do realize that Turbine has been routinely downsizing the variety of currency barters? Going back to cluster medallions and such would be a reversal of present trends.
    That is the point of my ideas. I do realize that turbine has been downsizing the variety of currency barters, and THAT is the ROOT of the problem. I used Moria as an example of this. The issue was that only one person in a group of 6 walked away with any barter currency. The problem was never that there were too many different barter currencies available. It was a sloppy solution to a broader problem.

    By unifying currencies turbine put a band-aid on a broken leg of the instance reward system. They took a system that wasn't working because only 1 person walked away with a reward, and decided to change it into a system where everyone walked away with equal reward. This is a great idea, in theory. The problem lies with the fact that they made every instance in every cluster give the same currency, which leads to only a few instances being farmed.
    Manbeorpig 100 Beorning, Brandywine.

 

 

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