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  1. #1
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    Goblin Riders' Onslaught

    I'd like to go on record saying that I find the shameless kin/raid/afk farming I've seen in the Goblin Riders' Onslaught instance (and no doubt a few others I haven't seen yet) in Whitshaws to be unhealthy and lame. What I'm most shocked is that right on the heels of anything we may have learned in the epic Defense of Harwick farming that went on (and later corrected), we are presented with another mirror situation (released as such).

    This isn't the place to go naming names or kins. I just wanted to vocalize how silly it seems that apparently recently-learned lessons (based on the changes they made to the Hyt dailies) have so soon been forgotten or never applied to newer content.

    No, it's not ideal doing instance dailies and getting no silver reward, loot, etc from mobs, but it beats the laughable sight of crowds of people raid farming drops, while most are sitting afk. In as much as someone dropped the chicken ball on this one; when you've finished killing your 15 goblin riders, just get out.

    /rant
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  2. #2
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    I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying, and glad to see that as a player councillor you are making your voice heard, thanks for that.

    However, I have to say that so far on my server I haven't seen this occurring - it might just be that I wasn't online when it did, or that the server is too quiet for a farm raid to happen inside the dailies, but so far I'm happy to note a lack of farming
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcticAurora View Post
    I'd like to go on record saying that I find the shameless kin/raid/afk farming I've seen in the Goblin Riders' Onslaught instance (and no doubt a few others I haven't seen yet) in Whitshaws to be unhealthy and lame. What I'm most shocked is that right on the heels of anything we may have learned in the epic Defense of Harwick farming that went on (and later corrected), we are presented with another mirror situation (released as such).

    This isn't the place to go naming names or kins. I just wanted to vocalize how silly it seems that apparently recently-learned lessons (based on the changes they made to the Hyt dailies) have so soon been forgotten or never applied to newer content.

    No, it's not ideal doing instance dailies and getting no silver reward, loot, etc from mobs, but it beats the laughable sight of crowds of people raid farming drops, while most are sitting afk. In as much as someone dropped the chicken ball on this one; when you've finished killing your 15 goblin riders, just get out.

    /rant
    My only disagreement with your post is when you say "recently-learned lessons". I'd argue that, had the lessons actually been learned, this wouldn't be happening again.

    In fact, the fact that even one new public instance that is susceptible to afk-macro farming made it into Wildermore is an example of the exact opposite of a lesson being learned.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lestache View Post
    My only disagreement with your post is when you say "recently-learned lessons". I'd argue that, had the lessons actually been learned, this wouldn't be happening again.
    You are rightfully correct in stating "lessons learned" were ignored/forgotten/(or worse), in that we're faced with a carbon copy of the exact same blunder. How do I know it's a blunder? Because I look at the last fix they had for this situation.

    So I guess we're further behind because we were suppose to have learned something, then went and did the exact same thing again. That doesn't inspire me at all. /facepalm
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  5. #5
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    Maybe they didn't like the drop in log-ins after the "correction" in Harwick/Farms...

    Anyway, the way I see it is; Since they didn't make the new instances without loot, they are fine with people farming it. And until they "correct" it again, it will be farmed...
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  6. #6
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    All these instanced "kill ## enemy type" should be on a timer - and boot you out when the time has expired.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JeauxLOTR View Post
    All these instanced "kill ## enemy type" should be on a timer - and boot you out when the time has expired.

    This is the best idea in my opinion, of all the ones that have been suggested so far. It isn't fair to take the loot out of the instance for those who are not farming the instance, a timer with a quest failed upon expiration trigger, which kicks the player out of the instance, would be ideal.

    That being said, I think the overall blunder here, beyond creating instances like this in the first place, is the addition of top end raid quality loot dropping off of random world mobs.

    I don't mean to sound elitist and push to exclude casual players from obtaining these items, But isn't the overall point of a mult-player game to play with others, to group up to accomplish feats that could not be done alone, to acquire rewards that one could not acquire on their own?

    That being said, I feel like these recipes should drop from only challenge chests in instances sizes 6 man or larger, preferably only 12 mans, but, as I said, I would hate to exclude those without the time to dedicate to raiding.

    I would love to see slightly less potent versions of the horse-lords, very minimal downgrades, dropping from 6 mans, (purple recipes that crit into teals) and the teal recipes which crit into golds coming only from 12 man runs.

    Let's be honest, farming scholar items, potions of athelas and celebrant, and silver pieces is very alluring to many, especially casual players who don't have the access to items to sell to make gold other ways, or who don't have the time or alts to farm and or craft scholar items/pots on their own, BUT the main offenders here (and I do not exclude myself) in this farming fiasco, are PVPers, raiders, and solo or small group players who wish to maximize their character by acquiring Horse-Lords recipes.

    The fact that the Horse-Lord (top end best loot in game) come from random world mobs is the very ROOT of the problem. If there is no instance to farm such as the Goblin Onslaught, then there are just random mobs to farm in Wildermore, honestly, who wants to run around wildermore all day, with only a small hope of acquiring a recipe after countless hours and countless thousand mobs. These recipes need to drop from chests, in 6 man or 12 man runs.

    I could go on for much longer about my ideas for the ways loot need to change in this game, but I think in doing so I would bring in far too many points, and when reading this you wouldn't know what to take away from it.

    My main point, if I can summarize, is that We need to have a timer on these "farming instances" that boots the player and fails the quest for the day, and we need to have top-end gear coming from instance chests.

  8. #8
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    Who cares if people are doing it? Do it, or don't. Turbine did learn a lesson (I assume that's the "we" you're talking about). The lesson was, people are addicts and want quick and easy loot. More people farmed Farms of Norcrofts than any raid in the history of LOTRO.
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  9. #9
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    *tinfoil hat*
    What got released in the store in this update?
    What items are people farming?

    Put two and two together, and it makes perfect sense why this got out of internal QA, palentir testing, bullroarer testing, and almost 2 weeks now on live.

    The people that would farm these recipes are (likely) the same that would drop the point to buy the 100% crit scroll from the store. Or they sell to someone that is. ("i only have 1200 gold, if i'm spending every penny i have, i sure hope it crits, otherwise i'll feel horrible about the money i wasted" - a likely quote from someone)

    It'll likely be fixed in 11.1, and life will go on.

    And a year from now, we'll likely be having these same conversations about whatever new public instance is out that people are farming.

    It's like my buddy Thunderloin said in a different thread; Farm early, and farm often.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcticAurora View Post
    What I'm most shocked is that right on the heels of anything TURBINE may have learned in the epic Defense of Harwick farming that went on (and later corrected), we are presented with another mirror situation (released as such).
    Fixed it for you.

    On May 4th, in Bullroarer (our preview server) this situation was brought up. Not. A. Single. Response. Not. A. Single. Comment.

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ssible-Exploit

    It's either:

    a) total lack of knowledge and/or foresight when designing the instance

    b) total disconsideration for players' opinions

    c) both of the above

    Please don't tell me Turbine doesn't possess the resources to 1) give no loot or 2) shut down the instance. After all, both of them have been done in a very recent present (DoH and Farms give no loot, FTLM and Turtle were quickly shut down when things weren't working quite as intended).

    I don't want to jump on the boat of those who think Turbine is so evil that they see this as an incentive to buy the perfect scroll from the store (1000TP) with more drops of Horse Lord recipes. But I really fail to understand why did this come out the way it was.

    The players saw this coming. They warned the company. Content still gets released. And now you want the players to back off and not farm (arguably) the best bracelets and pockets in the game?

    Please note I'm not saying farming is right or wrong. What I'm saying is do you really expect people to not do it? Of course some will. And after some will, more will do as well because, "Hey, if he/she can get it, I can get it too! Doesn't feel right but... I want that shiny like John did!". It's human nature!

    Don't blame the players. With DoH and FoS the company was excused (first public instance with the best drops in the game dropping from on-level mobs). The same mistake 3 times?
    Last edited by RicardoFurriel; May 24 2013 at 09:43 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    I don't want to jump on the boat of those who think Turbine is so evil that they see this as an incentive to buy the perfect scroll from the store (1000TP) with more drops of Horse Lord recipes.
    AND, don't forget that double points are back this weekend!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcticAurora View Post

    So I guess we're further behind because we were suppose to have learned something, then went and did the exact same thing again. That doesn't inspire me at all. /facepalm
    We even pointed the issue out in advance.

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ssible-Exploit
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  13. #13
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    IMO, the solution shouldn't be to punish players (outside the obvious TOS violations like macroing and AFK farming), but to give greater incentives to something other than grinding green mobs for hours on end.

    One way to do that would be to put horse-lord recipes in boss chests at a much higher drop rate (starting with solo skirmishes), with that rate increasing for larger instances, higher tiers, and larger group sizes. Solo players on the landscape would still have the same drop chance they have today, and even get to keep the public instances for easily farming cash and task drops, but the raid-farmers would have a much higher incentive to get back into skirmishes and instances, and perhaps even have a reason to run T2C once in a while.

    Alternatively, if turbine is absolutely insistent on keeping the recipes landscape-exclusive, just make the recipe scrolls barterable for some very high number of tokens. People might still farm for them as they do today, but the majority would be spread out in other content to gather tokens, and the barter option would inevitably reduce its price on the AH, which in turn would reduce the incentive for people to AFK-farm for days on end for something they might never get.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta View Post
    IMO, the solution shouldn't be to punish players (outside the obvious TOS violations like macroing and AFK farming), but to give greater incentives to something other than grinding green mobs for hours on end.

    One way to do that would be to put horse-lord recipes in boss chests at a much higher drop rate (starting with solo skirmishes), with that rate increasing for larger instances, higher tiers, and larger group sizes. Solo players on the landscape would still have the same drop chance they have today, and even get to keep the public instances for easily farming cash and task drops, but the raid-farmers would have a much higher incentive to get back into skirmishes and instances, and perhaps even have a reason to run T2C once in a while.

    Alternatively, if turbine is absolutely insistent on keeping the recipes landscape-exclusive, just make the recipe scrolls barterable for some very high number of tokens. People might still farm for them as they do today, but the majority would be spread out in other content to gather tokens, and the barter option would inevitably reduce its price on the AH, which in turn would reduce the incentive for people to AFK-farm for days on end for something they might never get.
    I agree with your ideas, but have one small comment.

    I think that Turbine said some months ago that the recipes can drop from any level 85 mob, including mobs in instances. In other words, I don't think that the drops are necessarily landscape-exclusive, but apparently when people are given the choice between actively fighting a finite number of mobs with tens of thousands of morale each or afk-farming an infinite number of mobs with 5.5k each (and incredibly short respawn timers) - the latter wins out.

  15. #15
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    The 'break' and obvious (in my opinion) fix to this all is the entire 'everyone in the group gets full credit for the kill regardless of participation' problem. Revert back to how it was when the new looting system was first released with Rohan, whereupon you actually had to do something to get kill credit. Problem solved. Until then, people are going to continue to abuse this feature. Removing the loot is the typical fix but utterly inelegant and totally misses the root of the problem.

    That's my assessment of this whole ridiculous situation.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isharra View Post
    Revert back to how it was when the new looting system was first released with Rohan, whereupon you actually had to do something to get kill credit. Problem solved.
    Except for classes with no ranged skills, then it's a race to reach the mob before the ranged-DPS classes burn it down.
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  17. #17
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    The best solution for these gold recipes is to remove them entirely from the drops of random mobs - loot should not be based on luck, but on working to acquire it. The best loot in the game (debatable whether it is now, but its certainly still extremely good) should never have been made this easily available, as it encourages the farming.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist View Post
    The best solution for these gold recipes is to remove them entirely from the drops of random mobs - loot should not be based on luck, but on working to acquire it. The best loot in the game (debatable whether it is now, but its certainly still extremely good) should never have been made this easily available, as it encourages the farming.
    Can't wait for someone to post "Hi, I only solo and have 12 toons. I want to have the horse lord bracelets and pockets on my toons. Why would it drop only from raids?"

    Answer: there is no solo quest that matches the difficulty of a t2c raid execution.

    Suggestion: make a quest that presents a challenge solo to every class.

    Problem: Turbine has no resources to create challenging solo content for all 9 classes.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ArcticAurora View Post
    I'd like to go on record saying that I find the shameless kin/raid/afk farming I've seen in the Goblin Riders' Onslaught instance (and no doubt a few others I haven't seen yet) in Whitshaws to be unhealthy and lame. What I'm most shocked is that right on the heels of anything we may have learned in the epic Defense of Harwick farming that went on (and later corrected), we are presented with another mirror situation (released as such).

    This isn't the place to go naming names or kins. I just wanted to vocalize how silly it seems that apparently recently-learned lessons (based on the changes they made to the Hyt dailies) have so soon been forgotten or never applied to newer content.

    No, it's not ideal doing instance dailies and getting no silver reward, loot, etc from mobs, but it beats the laughable sight of crowds of people raid farming drops, while most are sitting afk. In as much as someone dropped the chicken ball on this one; when you've finished killing your 15 goblin riders, just get out.

    /rant
    I am just going to come right out a say it: Its numbers.

    Every update since ROR we have had something to farm only later to be "FIXED". First we had recipes than anyone could get doing Hyt dailies, and than we JUST happen to get 1st Ager's in T1 Raids that really anyone could do.

    This is how I see it. Turbine releases a update, shows WB the numbers, good job, things get fixed.

    And Ric, I think your point is true to about the store, but for the store to work, you still need the numbers.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    Suggestion: make a quest that presents a challenge solo to every class.
    And then we'll see comments like "I'm a casual who doesn't want to use on-level gear or learn any of my skills, why should these recipes only come from challenging content?"

    Personally, I would be happy with any non-skirmish challenging solo content, but given Turbine's track record of nerfing content due to the demands of "casual players" (Turbine's words, not mine), I doubt we'll see that happen anytime soon.
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  21. #21
    Farming is clearly WAI. It follows the same pattern as BG, Hytbold dailies, and Erebor raids. People may not LIKE the pattern but it is what it is.

    This isn't the first time this type of farming has happened.
    This isn't the second time this type of farming has happened.
    This isn't the third time this type of farming has happened.
    This IS the FOURTH time this type of farming has happened.

    And these 4 times are all from the latest updates. It isn't like they made this 'mistake' 4 years ago and forgot why they did something the way they did. It has literally been happening back-to-back-to-back updates.

  22. #22
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    The Whitshaws public instance was empty tonight when I did my daily, save for one other person.

    Did everyone on E finally get all the recipes that they wanted, or were mass bans handed out?

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ArcticAurora View Post
    I'd like to go on record saying that I find the shameless kin/raid/afk farming I've seen in the Goblin Riders' Onslaught instance (and no doubt a few others I haven't seen yet) in Whitshaws to be unhealthy and lame.
    Agreed. The farming and grinding aspect of the whole Wildermore expansion is a massive turn-off for me. I've been quietly levelling a guardian instead.
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