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  1. #1

    Captains CANNOT dismount Warband leaders while other classes can

    I have spent a great deal of time soloing the new Warbands and have noticed that we are unable to dismount the warband leaders in the new Wildermore instance. I get an IMMUNE display when a crit is supposed to dismount while in riddermark stance.

    My experience has come from being able to solo every Warband including Shaguk and Conog in the new instance. These two mobs take an extended period of time to solo, ~20 minutes during which I am able to spam our two dismount skills over and over again while in Riddermark and yet they NEVER have been dismounted nor have I dismounted any other mounted warband leader in the new instance. I can however always dismount the adds.

    I do not know which classes all have a dismount skill but I have verified the Hunter class is able to dismount warband leaders so it is not an issue of the Warband leader being immune to dismounts but rather immune to captain dismounts.

    I have not checked as of yet if we can still dismount any of the old warband leaders but it is fairly evident that captains have received a nerf in this regard. It may be due to the fact that 1 of our dismount skills can be an ae and they felt it was too powerful if we could dismount bosses as well. This is just a guess of course but it does appear that this is an undocumented nerf to this class that I would like others to verify.

  2. #2
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    wide circles make me dizzy but we do a lot of damage still. if you rush in for a melee hit you run the risk of a major hit and you get dismounted...just hit hit last stand and repeat...mundane 20 min solo is not uncommon!
    ps wth happened to my sig?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b0000000170c6/signature.png]Brash[/charsig]

  3. #3
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    Odd. I run with a Heavy steed, so I haven't noticed any differences myself. But I know a bunch of other Cappies do use Lights, so maybe they can chime in. I'd think they would have mentioned it by now, though.

    Initial thought: Are you in a group when you see this happen? Could be that Stun Immunity (which could be triggered by LMs applying their mounted stun, for instances) also affects Dismounts?
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by yeldarb420 View Post
    wide circles make me dizzy but we do a lot of damage still. if you rush in for a melee hit you run the risk of a major hit and you get dismounted...just hit hit last stand and repeat...mundane 20 min solo is not uncommon!
    ps wth happened to my sig?
    I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at with this statement and how it relates to my post. Your sig is probably experiencing the same problems as mine... works sometimes doesn't work others. The forums appear really slow today so could be related.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Odd. I run with a Heavy steed, so I haven't noticed any differences myself. But I know a bunch of other Cappies do use Lights, so maybe they can chime in. I'd think they would have mentioned it by now, though.

    Initial thought: Are you in a group when you see this happen? Could be that Stun Immunity (which could be triggered by LMs applying their mounted stun, for instances) also affects Dismounts?
    My post is in regards to a light steed build so I'm not sure if there is any difference between different steed types as I haven't played around much with the medium and heavy builds yet. Do they even have a dismount ability? If so can you confirm that you have dismounted a warband leader with your skills and it wasn't someone else around you?

    I am not in a group when this happens so it has nothing to do with stuns as I have none. I do have slows but they are not immune to these as they are necessary to kite Conog successful as he dismounts you once in melee range. I have tested it dozens of different times as I started to grow suspicious that the leaders wouldn't dismount. It became apparent to me that regardless of how many times I spam dismount skills, up to several hundred per encounter during testing, did I not once dismount a warband leader. I have tested this for about a week now and seeing as how the patch is only about two weeks old this nerf could have easily been overlooked as most people do not solo the tougher warbands and thus you wouldn't have the right situation to even know that you aren't the one dismounting as a captain.

    I can call over a hunter friend to attack him at anypoint during a kite and the warband leader is dismounted within a minute or two. The riddermark skill tree for a light steed gives 25% to dismount on crit(after the patches nerf). I have 5% legacy traited for that skill plus another 5% for the standard dismount. My crit % is ~30-35% for these skills. I have no problem dismounting all adds to a warband encounter but cannot dismount the leader at all even if I sit there kiting him for over 20 minutes trying to do so and my stats would indicate I should do so once every 10 attacks or so. If leaders have a built in resistance to being dismounted over others it does not explain the lack of being able to dismount at all after literally hundreds of test attacks while I can call over a hunter at any point of a kite and have him dismount the leader within a minute or two.

    I am still able to kill all warbands so this isn't a post about not being powerful enough, as we clearly are even after the patch but rather about how captains may have had a stealth nerf that hasn't been acknowledged as of yet.
    Last edited by Dylbro; May 24 2013 at 08:53 PM.

  6. #6
    I have the same impression. Light steed cappy also and have yet to get a dismount on Voz, Shaggy or Conog. I've tried all these WB's multiple times without getting a dismount. I'm glad you brought this up as I was wondering to myself if something was wrong. I have also gotten all the adds dismounted while the leader stays mounted.

    I have seen these leaders dismounted, just by other classes.

    I will try again tonight, including Bug and Val to see if is an across the board issue or just isolated to the new regions WB's.
    Gungus - Captain

  7. #7
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    I think one of the biggest things here is a change to the Yellow line capstone on a light steed.

    It went from 50% dismount chance on a Critical to a 25% dismount chance. That's huge, because your effective chance to dismount (assuming maxed crit) is now around 10% - so there really needs to be a second or third player helping with the dismounting.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I think one of the biggest things here is a change to the Yellow line capstone on a light steed.

    It went from 50% dismount chance on a Critical to a 25% dismount chance. That's huge, because your effective chance to dismount (assuming maxed crit) is now around 10% - so there really needs to be a second or third player helping with the dismounting.
    The change to 25% from 50% is big but even at a 10% overall dismount chance per attack you would on average dismount once every minute or less as our dismount skills are on fairly short cool downs plus one is an ae that hits 6 targets. There is no reason why a second or third player needs to be around to dismount when our skills are on such short cool downs as this nerf really isn't that big if we can still dismount 1 out of every 10 attacks and can do ~20 attacks that can dismount per minute.

    I do see this 10% as being approximately correct on all warband adds but again I have casted these on the same bosses during the same kiting sequence and they never dismount unless I have a hunter friend come over and do it. So it isn't really an issue of needing more people to help dismount but rather needing others to dismount at all even though we have a dismount skill.
    Last edited by Dylbro; May 24 2013 at 09:53 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by gungus_coyote View Post
    I have the same impression. Light steed cappy also and have yet to get a dismount on Voz, Shaggy or Conog. I've tried all these WB's multiple times without getting a dismount. I'm glad you brought this up as I was wondering to myself if something was wrong. I have also gotten all the adds dismounted while the leader stays mounted.

    I have seen these leaders dismounted, just by other classes.

    I will try again tonight, including Bug and Val to see if is an across the board issue or just isolated to the new regions WB's.
    Glad I'm not the only one who was thinking this. Let me know what you find out, I am about to do warbands again today and will test again.

  10. #10
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    A few of the new warbands seem immune to dismounts. I certainly haven't been able to dismount a few of them as a Champion on a light steed. I *have* seen the new ones dismounted, but I don't know which class did it. Rest assured, Captains are not alone. And it may be a bug that another class was able.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    A few of the new warbands seem immune to dismounts. I certainly haven't been able to dismount a few of them as a Champion on a light steed. I *have* seen the new ones dismounted, but I don't know which class did it. Rest assured, Captains are not alone. And it may be a bug that another class was able.
    I know the hunter class can dismount them. It is interesting that you as a Champ are also experiencing this so hopefully I didn't find a bug that's going to get hunters all pissed off at me... lol

  12. #12
    This is what I found tonight. Keep in mind this is an extremely small sample size.

    Shaggy: I critted on my first pass and saw an "immune" notice above his head and no dismount. All sudsequent attacks resulted in no dismount but was unable to see any more "immune" notices as I was running for my life at that point.

    Connig: I scored a total of 10 crits on my first attempt and 12 crits my second attempt resulting in 0 dismounts.

    Voz: Multiple crits over 10 minutes and no dismounts. My combat log showed this after a crit "Gungus tried to use Chance to Dismount on Voz but he was immune to the attempt." I think this shows atleast Voz is immune to our dismounts.

    Bugud: Dismounted in 2 hits.

    Kramp: Dismounted on the first hit.

    I'm a not so happy cappy atm.
    Gungus - Captain

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dylbro View Post
    I know the hunter class can dismount them. It is interesting that you as a Champ are also experiencing this so hopefully I didn't find a bug that's going to get hunters all pissed off at me... lol
    Dismounting them makes every warband trivial for most all classes. It's nice that the new ones are immune, for a bit of a challenge.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Initial thought: Are you in a group when you see this happen? Could be that Stun Immunity (which could be triggered by LMs applying their mounted stun, for instances) also affects Dismounts?
    I don't know about LM skills specifically, but at least some skill/effect preventing dismounts sounds like a plausible theory to me. I can't recall issues dismounting other warbands, but I had never seen Voz dismounted until today and thought he was in fact immune to dismount until I dismounted him today. I've only gone through wildermore and done the warbands on my warden, and am not sure what classes may have been in on the kills on voz, but I think I may have been the only one there when I killed him today.

  15. #15
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    At this point, the dismounting seems weird and inconsistent enough that I think it should get /bugged. Either because they're not supposed to be immune and are to us or (more likely?) they're supposed to be immune to everyone but aren't immune to Hunters for some reason.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  16. #16
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    I agree with Furtim, that does sound like a bug.

    Are there mechanics with the bosses where they can't be dismounted until the adds are down?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  17. #17
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    Just tested with Shaguk- CombatAnalysis showed me 167 criticals from both crys at ~ 12.25% dismount chance on every skill usage.
    Not a single dismount.
    I realized that shaguk after being bandless starts using a melee skill that gives him a corruption, Vile Power for 10% damage buff, stacks 5 times. Naturally if i dismount to remove this corruption he hit me even faster and the corruption stacks even faster. Without this corruption he cant kill me while using tank gear and soloing would be a matter of time even without dismount.

    I became frustrated and gave up on testing Conog and Voz.

    I have never dismounted conog or voz, but have seen every one of these warband bosses dismounted while zerging wildermore in a group.

    I give up almagnus, insignia of wrath it is from now on- no more free speech if i can't dismount these mobs. And there is a instance with mounted swarm goblins where Wrath >>> Free Speech as well

  18. #18
    I tested this again twice yesterday and got a consistent IMMUNE popup on a good number of my crits in regards to Shaguk and Conog. I kited them by myself for 15 minutes while I tested this and than called over a hunter whom was able to dismount fairly quickly.

    I cannot get as consistent results on other mobs due to their lower hp's and pathing patterns (Voz)... I can confirm that Arateus or however you spell his name is NOT immune to dismounts as I could dismount him solo.

    It may very well be that only certain warband leaders are immune but I am not convinced yet that this is actually a bug and isn't intended.

  19. #19
    I swapped in the yellow capstone to test it out, was soloing Conog and had no trouble taking out all his adds but even with a high-crit build I couldn't dismount him after they were gone. It was fixin' to be a long fight but eventually a band of riders showed up and managed to get him on the ground. If it wasn't for the herd of aurochs nearby I probably wouldn't have had enough healing power to hold until backup arrived. Oh well, this time he only managed to dismount me five times. Head-on jousting seems to be the real bear... maybe it's just backfiring. I suspect he's just good and my crit defense sucks. The proc rate for Zovarr and Rottenheart's bands seem pretty bad too. I spend most of the battles locked in movement debuffs and Break Free only gives me a few seconds to breathe every couple of minutes. Still, I'm gonna earn these upgrades and I like needing to run for my life once in a while. It really brings out the feel of the saga.

    I'm guessing they're all being tweaked with different strengths and weaknesses toward different classes/builds. If that's the case it would reduce the zerging, we'll actually have to have some kind of strategy. Gonna see if I can find a decent blade for a sword and board setup and try a medium healer for these situations. I don't think this is all bad... it would make (at least some of) them an actual challenge to riders of any class, adds a deeper element of danger to wandering alone, and the next expansion could get pretty interesting if they have some decent AI for interacting with each other in large scale battles. Remember, this war is close to being lost for us... soloing should be a tough challenge, and nobody should be feeling OP all the time. Those who have tangled with Sauron on Bullroarer know what I mean. There's a lot of carnage ahead, so I suggest we all get used to it. Come on, you apes... you wanna live forever?

    Forth Éorlingas!!
    [I][FONT=Verdana]"[B]The wind of heaven is that which blows between a horse's ears.[/B]"[/FONT][/I] [SIZE=1]~ Bedouin Proverb[/SIZE]

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Dismounting them makes every warband trivial for most all classes. It's nice that the new ones are immune, for a bit of a challenge.
    I'm totally agreed
    Once dismounted, warbands bosses are weak like frogs : I dismounted Conog (on my champ) and killed him...
    afk with auto-attack.

    I did Shaguk afterwards, could not dismount him and it took me > 30 mn to kill him, with good challenge.
    Last edited by Castorix; May 27 2013 at 08:23 AM.

  21. #21
    I verified today that Loremasters are also able to dismount the warband leaders Shaguk and Conog along with the hunter.

    I like the idea of having more diversity between classes that helps bring back a unique roll for each. They all have a unique skillset but not really much else so these kind of things are good.

    However, if the captain class is the only class that cannot dismount raid warband leaders or others than this is either a bug or a hidden nerf bat to the captain class. So far it seems the only confirmed dismounters are the hunter and loremasters and the only one who is confirmed IMMUNE is captain. There is confusion about the champ as one person claimed they could not dismount while another claimed they did.

  22. #22
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    My experience with captain and hunter who are both using light steeds and doing all warbands in Wildermore daily:

    Captain straggles to dismount anything. I am not even trying anymore, just pretend I don't have the riddermark discipline.

    Hunter dismounts regularly no matter which discipline she is using. One of hunter's skills - Kill Shot - has a 25% dismount chance on critical hits without the bonuses from the yellow line (it crits often and and has a 64% chance to reset its cooldown, there is Insignia to further increase the dismount chance by 15% but I don't use it). In fact, I spend all solo fights in Rohirrim discipline and only switch to Red Dawn when more people are joining. And I still frequently dismount the warband leaders (Conog and Shaguk including). At the same time I do not notice more dismounts if I switch to Riddermark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylbro View Post
    I verified today that Loremasters are also able to dismount the warband leaders Shaguk and Conog along with the hunter.
    Lore Masters have a skill - Radiant Blast - which has 5% dismount chance on skill use (not on crit) and only 6s cd on a light steed.

    My suspicion is that the yellow riddermark capstone is broken. I don't remember if before U11 the tooltips of the skills affected by the capstone were changing the description depending on the discipline, but now the dismount chance is never mentioned. At the same time in the Rohirrim I see the Morale/Endurance restoration effect included in the tooltip.


    Update:
    I change my theory from "a broken capstone" to "a broken hunter's skill". Looks like the dismount chance is applied properly and some warbands are immune (as was mentioned frequently in this topic) to dismounting. But some class skills - like Hunter's Kill Shot - work not as intended and bypass the immunity.

    Was soloing Voz and Conog on my hunter now:

    In a Riddermark discipline:
    Ishtarel scored a critical hit with Noble Arrow on Voz for 2,964 (2,071 from 1,000 Fury) Beleriand damage to Morale.
    Ishtarel tried to use Chance to Dismount on Voz but he was immune to the attempt.

    A minute later in Rohirrim discipline I dismounted Voz with a Kill Shot crit. However, this dismount is not recorded in the combat log at all. All I see is:
    Ishtarel scored a critical hit with Kill Shot on Voz for 5,676 (0 from 0 Fury) Beleriand damage to Morale.

    Same happened later to Conog - he was dismounted without any notification in the Combat log.
    Last edited by Lunasa; May 29 2013 at 05:50 AM.

  23. #23
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    I hope you guys are using /bug to report this on your Hunters and LMs, then.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  24. #24
    Im glad you make this post because i have the same problem with my champ . This is what i find out :

    Hunters and Loremasters (only naming this two) can dismount all war band leaders without any problem.

    Champion :

    Using Medium steed, red stance : 5% chance to dismount with only one skill but it works ! ...you can dismount the war band leader if you got lucky

    Light Steed , Yellow Stance: Huge chance to dismount with almost every attack skill. Works perfectly in any mounted mob and you can actually dismount multiple mobs at the same time with the aoe attack...but IT DOESNT work on war band leaders, you get the "inmune" message instead.

    This thing is confirmed. Both for champions (my character) and Captain (i have a friend cappy who notice the same problem)

    Is this a Bug, or this is the way its supposed to happen ?


    Note: I dont have the dismount chance legacy on my briddle, but like i said ...i can dismount normal mobs without any problems, the warband leaders are the only ones wich give me the "inmune" message .
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/062050000002782cb/signature.png]Norhog[/charsig]

  25. #25
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    ok, so its not just me.

    as for making them immune, if that is the properly working design, is representative of one of my biggest annoyances in video games:

    not fixing the real issue and throwing a cheap &&& bandaid on the problem.

    so much more could have been done to "fix" this issue:

    -allow mobs to remount
    -allow mobs to trap/snare us
    -give em a lasso. yeeha!
    -give them some new ranged attacks when stationary (this could also kind of a band-aid.. however, from a "realistic" standpoint, ranged attacks should not work well on horseback, or at least, much better on foot)

    any of those are better than "IMMUNE"


    ok, had to vent. thanks for reading
    "I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
    "I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me

 

 
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