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  1. #1
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    About finesse and tactical mitgations

    I was wondering what people consider enough tac mit. In particular I am a 4 red, 3 blue with around 6k finesse and right about 50% tac mit with scrolls up. While I am very happy with my morale levels I feel a little squishy with that low of a tac mit. This of course comes from someone used to running a guard.

    Also I am wondering what the more offensive minded captains out there think about finesse levels. How much do you value it?
    Last edited by Qwyxzl; May 21 2013 at 04:37 PM. Reason: Edited for clarity

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwyxzl View Post
    I was wondering what people consider enough for both finesse and tac mit. In particular I am a 4 red, 3 blue with around 6k finesse and right about 50% tac mit with scrolls up. While I am very happy with my morale levels I feel a little squishy with that low of a tac mit. This of course comes from someone used to running a guard.
    About the best way to gauge your squishiness (since everything is squishy compared to a guard) is to ask the healers in your group if they think you're squishy.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

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  3. #3
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    Unless I've missed a change somewhere, Finesse is a purely offensive stat. It will not make your toon less squishy.

    Other than that, my cappy is not anywhere close to 85, so I don't know how easy/hard it is to get tact mit over 50%. That having been said, getting mits as high as possible without harming you role should be one of your priorities.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpdm View Post
    Unless I've missed a change somewhere, Finesse is a purely offensive stat. It will not make your toon less squishy.

    Other than that, my cappy is not anywhere close to 85, so I don't know how easy/hard it is to get tact mit over 50%. That having been said, getting mits as high as possible without harming you role should be one of your priorities.
    I am well aware of finesse as an offensive stat. I am interested in people's finesses to see what people have and if they feel they have enough. The mitigation question is a separate one. And of course I am trying to find out if my mits are high enough. That is why I asked the question.

    I edited my original post to hopefully clarify what I was asking.
    Last edited by Qwyxzl; May 21 2013 at 04:38 PM.

  5. #5
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    Personally, I completely ignore Finesse and still manage to have ~2k or so. It seems to be "enough". At least, I'm noticing a lot of skills getting BPE'd. I think it's more important for LMs and Burgs, who need to apply debuff effects reliably whether acting in a CC or DPS role, than us.

    As for Tact Mit, 50% is plenty for a non-tank.
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  6. #6
    According to StatCheck for 1,378 level 85 Captains...

    Finesse: 9332 Max, 3839 Avg
    Tac Mit: 16349 Max, 5686 Avg

  7. #7
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    About Finesse: the correct answer is probably - does not matter for raids, helps a lot in trash mobs farms. It's thinking about the Finesse stat that the de facto armour for cappys is boots and legs from perseverance and the rest from hytbold leader, since this is the setup that maximizes Finesse. We usually forgot to use finesse rings, but they are important. Gold rings with 122 Might and 1200 finesse add more dps that no-finesse 150 might rings. But for heals i don't think finesse helps that much. Maybe giving more defeats responses from crits, or the rare WoC after a BoE. Healing i go with 150 Might rings.

    About tactical mitigation- mandatory in raids and PvP. Try to squeeze some in pocket, necklace, cloak, boots and shoulders. Do not stack vitality if you can use a + tact mitigation gear on that slot for the same purpose. virtues are an important source of tactical mitigation for cappys. Outside of selected instances and skirms cappys are not squishies at all since might gives phys mit.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    About tactical mitigation- mandatory in raids and PvP. Try to squeeze some in pocket, necklace, cloak, boots and shoulders. Do not stack vitality if you can use a + tact mitigation gear on that slot for the same purpose. virtues are an important source of tactical mitigation for cappys. Outside of selected instances and skirms cappys are not squishies at all since might gives phys mit.
    Mandatory, yes, but how much is too much?

    Are you starving other, more beneficial stats, to squeeze in an excessive amount of tactical mitigations?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwyxzl View Post
    I was wondering what people consider enough tac mit. In particular I am a 4 red, 3 blue with around 6k finesse and right about 50% tac mit with scrolls up. While I am very happy with my morale levels I feel a little squishy with that low of a tac mit. This of course comes from someone used to running a guard.

    Also I am wondering what the more offensive minded captains out there think about finesse levels. How much do you value it?
    Finesse is probably more useful to your Guardian than Captain - at least it's that way for for a Warden tank - because it helps lower the chance for your taunts to be resisted I'm told, and it does seem too. It's still useful to a Captain, but I would probably rank it lower on your list of priorities because of that.

    And I would think 50% tacitcal mitigation should be enough providing you have at least 10k morale to go along with it. You are probably going to feel squisy no matter what since you are used to playing a Guardian. I can relate to that because I play a Warden also, and feel like I'm made of glass when I'm on my Captain because of that.
    Last edited by Jeremi; May 21 2013 at 09:20 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Finesse is probably more useful to your Guardian than Captain - at least it's that way for for a Warden tank - because it helps lower the chance for your taunts to be resisted I'm told, and it does seem too. It's still useful to a Captain, but I would probably rank it lower on your list of priorities because of that.

    And I would think 50% tacitcal mitigation should be enough providing you have at least 10k morale to go along with it. You are probably going to feel squisy no matter what since you are used to playing a Guardian. I can relate to that because I play a Warden also, and feel like I'm made of glass when I'm on my Captain because of that.
    Finesse does lower resists or at least is supposed to. I have I think 4k on my guard and 6k on my captain. But I have it mostly for reducing bpe with the idea that anything that increases dps is a good thing.

    I think I identified why I feel squishy. It has less to do with mits and way more to do with lower bpe than I am used to. I have no block, lower parry and lower evade than I do on my guard so I just plain take more hits. My morale is 12k with just motivate and hope banner so I have enough to take a hit or three.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwyxzl View Post
    Finesse does lower resists or at least is supposed to. I have I think 4k on my guard and 6k on my captain. But I have it mostly for reducing bpe with the idea that anything that increases dps is a good thing.

    I think I identified why I feel squishy. It has less to do with mits and way more to do with lower bpe than I am used to. I have no block, lower parry and lower evade than I do on my guard so I just plain take more hits. My morale is 12k with just motivate and hope banner so I have enough to take a hit or three.
    As to finesse, bear in mind it doesn't increase DPS once the target BPE (if any) is overcome by your finesse. More != better. I run with 3-4 K, seems OK far as I can tell, but haven't studied what the most efficient value might be...

    As to squishy, carry a shield and 1-H. Even if you mostly go 2-H, for occasions where you are getting beat on harshly you can switch to S&B, it will toughen you up lots -- block should be 20% or more with the might you no doubt have stacked. I recently bit the bullet and got a first age 1-H. I rather like it, though I don't yet have a shield I'm happy with (R10 moors shield or captain gold are the ones I'd like).

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    About the best way to gauge your squishiness (since everything is squishy compared to a guard) is to ask the healers in your group if they think you're squishy.
    for a guy that loves his numbers, it makes me smile to see you do things my way

    "is this working?" ok, good enough for me!


    EDIT: I forgot to answer your question! i run with about 45-52% tact mit, depending on buffs and setup. finesse can be all over the place from about 2000-6000, but it is a stat i never focus on or try for, i just take what i get,
    Last edited by SapienChavez; May 22 2013 at 02:00 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    for a guy that loves his numbers, it makes me smile to see you do things my way

    "is this working?" ok, good enough for me!


    EDIT: I forgot to answer your question! i run with about 45-52% tact mit, depending on buffs and setup. finesse can be all over the place from about 2000-6000, but it is a stat i never focus on or try for, i just take what i get,
    I had the feeling that 50% was in the right ballpark but was worried that it was on the low side. It seems that it is not and trying to squeeze more would impact other things. As for finesse, I have the amount that I have because that is what came on the armour and rings that I have. I did not specifically seek it out but it is what I ended up with.

  14. #14
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    I usually aim for ~6k finesse. Not gonna hurt me much if I end up choosing gear with a little less, though I probably wouldn't drop below 4k.

    For tac mit, I actually have no idea on my exact percent. It's sub-50 for sure and I don't have problems with living. Best way to find a good amount of tac mit is ask your average champ what they have. If it's good enough for a class that can't BPE, it's definitely good enough for a class that can at the very least parry and evade, if you're not a captain that uses a shield.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    I usually aim for ~6k finesse. Not gonna hurt me much if I end up choosing gear with a little less, though I probably wouldn't drop below 4k.

    For tac mit, I actually have no idea on my exact percent. It's sub-50 for sure and I don't have problems with living. Best way to find a good amount of tac mit is ask your average champ what they have. If it's good enough for a class that can't BPE, it's definitely good enough for a class that can at the very least parry and evade, if you're not a captain that uses a shield.
    I have dead on 6k finesse now. I might drop that to 4800 or so as I have a horselord heavy helm recipe that I might mix into my gear and the helm I have has 1176 on it.

    And I will as some champs that I know about tac mit. May even post over in their forums and see what they think.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    for a guy that loves his numbers, it makes me smile to see you do things my way

    "is this working?" ok, good enough for me!
    Well.... this is one of those things that depends on too many factors to even begin calculating (your HPS, the mini's HPS, how well you obey mechanics, how well your tank holds agro, your playstyle, etc) ..... so this is really the next best method
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

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  17. #17
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    By default I have somewhere between 35 - 40% tact mit unbuffed (both champ and cappy). For content where it actually matters (like T2 raids) I switch gear a little around to get about 50 - 55% when fully buffed

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwyxzl View Post

    I think I identified why I feel squishy. It has less to do with mits and way more to do with lower bpe than I am used to. I have no block, lower parry and lower evade than I do on my guard so I just plain take more hits. My morale is 12k with just motivate and hope banner so I have enough to take a hit or three.
    Probably is. Avoidance makes such a huge difference in terms of survivability on this game, way more than mitigations do. For example: My captain actually has more physical mitigation (and armor for that matter) than my warden does, yet my Warden takes so much less damage it's not even comparable because of his higher avoidance, and once you get used to having high bpe it's really hard to adjusts and do without it.

    Sometimes I wish I had never began playing the Warden because of that. I feel like such a wuss now when ever I go onto my Captain because of it ; ;
    Last edited by Jeremi; May 23 2013 at 07:11 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Probably is. Avoidance makes such a huge difference in terms of survivability on this game, way more than mitigations do. For example: My captain actually has more physical mitigation (and armor for that matter) than my warden does, yet my Warden takes so much less damage it's not even comparable because of his higher avoidance, and once you get used to having high bpe it's really hard to adjusts and do without it.

    Sometimes I wish I had never began playing the Warden because of that. I feel like such a wuss now when ever I go onto my Captain because of it ; ;
    So what you're saying is tanks are more durable than non-tanks?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

    Steam: Almagnus1

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    So what you're saying is tanks are more durable than non-tanks?
    not really how i read it... i read it as his warden/tank has less durability than his capn (less amror and mits, i think he said), hes just hit less often. more survivable, but not necessarily more durable (as in able to take a hit that actually gets through).

    semantics. blah.

  21. #21
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    As I originally brought this up, I totally get what Jeremi is saying. It is not that either of us think that captain should have the durability of our tanks. It is just that for someone who often tanks the captain *feels* squishier than it should. Just like I bet players that mostly play light armor classes feel nearly invincible as a cappy. My captain has way more mits and bpe than my RK.

    My captain is by no stretch of the imagination fragile. 13K morale, 17%ish parry, nearly capped physical mit and 51% tac mit means that he can take a hit or three. But my guard takes half the damage that my cappy does and I play him more often. So sometimes I forget that heavy armor is not always enough.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwyxzl View Post
    As I originally brought this up, I totally get what Jeremi is saying. It is not that either of us think that captain should have the durability of our tanks. It is just that for someone who often tanks the captain *feels* squishier than it should. Just like I bet players that mostly play light armor classes feel nearly invincible as a cappy. My captain has way more mits and bpe than my RK.

    My captain is by no stretch of the imagination fragile. 13K morale, 17%ish parry, nearly capped physical mit and 51% tac mit means that he can take a hit or three. But my guard takes half the damage that my cappy does and I play him more often. So sometimes I forget that heavy armor is not always enough.
    Yeah, it's all about perspective here - one of the reasons why I (oddly) find it difficult to play a champ - I expect similar levels of durability (cause we're both shieldless heavies), but it just feels so insanely squishy compared to my captain that I don't like it XD
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    So what you're saying is tanks are more durable than non-tanks?
    I know you're probably just trying to be a smart aleck here, but I'll respond anyway

    And no - what I was attempting to sayis avoidance contributes more than anything else does to a character's defense. When I solo instances on my Captain for example I often times stack avoidance, and that's when I'm running in HoH and I'm definitely not a tank. I do it for the extra survival, not so I can be a tank.

    I was just making the general point that avoidance > mitigation for survival purposes.
    Last edited by Jeremi; May 24 2013 at 09:19 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    I know you're probably just trying to be a smart aleck here, but I'll respond anyway

    And no - what I was attempting to sayis avoidance contributes more than anything else does to a character's defense. When I solo instances on my Captain for example I often times stack avoidance, and that's when I'm running in HoH and I'm definitely not a tank. I do it for the extra survival, not so I can be a tank.

    I was just making the general point that avoidance > mitigation for survival purposes.
    That would be accurate...

    As long as bosses didn't have finesse.....
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

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