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  1. #1

    RoR instances. what's right and wrong

    Most players nowadays are fed up with the way instances have been handled in RoR. With the endless grind for gold items, the debacles with first ages (and second ages) dropping from t1 raids that took x minutes to finish and farm, the delayed instance cluster, many of the best items dropping from solo crafting instances or landscape mobs, the lack of rewards for t2 and t2c instances, and the overall feel that the developers are trending toward solo play, where does that leave me and my friends? We who love to group up and feel the camaraderie and challenge of fun content feel...well...shafted. I'd like to flesh out what I think went wrong (and right) with the way things were implemented. Relevant note: i'm only actually writing this because i'm so bored of running iorbar's peak and crafting instances that I have nothing better to do.


    What went right
    -Instance finder(partially)
    The instance finder was built for two purposes. The first was to allow someone with no connections to find a group to play with. However, no one that I know uses the instance finder for this purpose. The one time I tried it (a long time ago) I spent a long time in queue and never found a group. Glff (or unite for vilya) is still a much more efficient way to find a group.
    The second purpose of the instance finder was to incentivize groups to play a wider range of content. The currency and morale/power bonus require people to select more instances to maximize that bonus. This was a great idea, and it's why people use the instance finder. Choice(what instances I select) coupled with a random element(which instance will be chosen by the IF) makes the instance finder a fun and powerful tool for grouping, especially when the random element increases rewards (more on this thought later).

    -Remote looting
    Remote looting adds a whole slew of conundrums for landscape content. The hytbold daily farming stemmed from this change. But If we solely focus on group play, remote looting is a positive change. No longer do groups have to argue about who can/can't roll on what items. It saves a lot of time in raids not having to pass out loot. And does anyone remember the constant "roll/pass" button flooding the screen when someone would start looting before a fight was over? As one who used to lead raids on a regular basis, this change makes my life easier. People who use a ladder don't like it because it's not as easy to control. Say a person gets a first age symbol from a raid and the kin uses dkp. That person would have to give up that symbol to the group, and may feel resentment or even keep the symbol. To me this is a non-issue since it would be obvious that person probably wasn't a good fit for that kin and their style of raiding to begin with, but this is a legitimate concern for some groups. Overall, I find remote looting to be an efficient way to deal with loot, and a positive change.

    -scaled instances (partially)
    Having more instances and raids to play is definitely a checkmark in the positive column. So much content is wasted after the level cap rises. When these items are scaled, we get to enjoy them at all levels. Currently we have 11 3 mans, 15 6 mans, and 5 raid clusters we can play at level 85. Scaling those instances was awesome, but scale them right. Don't shame all that hard work a developer put into SG by propping it up with duct tape and calling it good.

    -spreading valuable items across all instances
    Giving everyone another reason to change things up and play lots of different instances and clusters. Another great change.


    What went wrong
    -instance difficulty
    Current 3 and 6 man content does not require main healers or main tanks. For t1, it should be fine that groups can bring whatever makeup. For t2/t2c 3 mans, it actually might be good NOT to require groups to have main tanks/healers so captains and lms can have a spot in there. But 6 man t2/t2c should require groups to have a main healer, main tank, or hopefully both..and STILL be a difficult fight.

    -instance drop rates
    Chances for gold items are much too low. To go along with increased instance difficulty, we should have a much higher drop rate of the items we hope to acquire when we complete t2 or t2c instances. I'm thinking in the ballpark of 5-10% (might seem a bit high but keep reading) for gold items and a 30% chance for teal items (from each chest). Also, They could add another avenue for players to acquire these items, similar to the barter for first ages. Require a ridiculously high amount of seals, on top of a special currency that drops depending on the cluster. For example, If a champ wanted the annuminas bracelet he'd need 300 seals, and 10 ost elendil coins, 10 glinghant coins, and 10 haudh valandil coins. So now we'd be working toward a concrete goal or finish line. On top of that would be the exciting chance of actually winning one from a chest! The random element goes from being the dreadful "please oh please for the 300th time please be in here....sigh" feeling to "oh please let this be the one! shoot, ok....110 more seals and 5 more haudh valandil runs to go!". When people get choices built into the random element, they feel that randomness working for them.

    -reward locks
    After seeing the insane amount of farming and subsequent lack of motivation for running instances, I understand quite clearly now the need for reward locks. There must be some mechanic that bars people from burning themselves out on the same instances over and over again. I would prefer a system where there is a daily loot lock on all 3 or 6 man chests. Raids need rewards locks to be bi weekly. If you are "locked" on an instance/raid you could still play it again, but if you did you would not get a shot at a gold item, teal item, relic removal, tome, or either type of crystals. You could still get the runes/relics though.
    This change makes t2 and t2c a more valuable enterprise since you have a better bang for your buck system as difficulty increases. Instead of running sambrog 10 times in 2 hours, it will force people to run sambrog, then maze, then thadur. After that they'll have to wait until tomorrow. They can then choose to group up for erebor 3 mans to try for the gold item there. This will get people to log in daily more than those ridiculous hobbit slot machines.

    Put the last three topics together and you have instances that are more challenging, that have a higher chance of dropping highly sought-after items, and that aren't farmable.

    -The Bells of Fail
    How terrible a joke this one is on t2/t2c. not hard, not fun. Decent items drop from it I guess.

    -first and second ages dropping from t1 raids...
    .....that were being completed in less than 10 minutes. THEN subsequent nerfs of t1s (and in the case of BG nerfing the whole damn raid to become worthless to run).

    -the best gear acquired only solo
    What gives? Instead of bridging the gap between avenues to solo and group play the itemization people decided to divide these two factions of players even further by taking ancient scrollcases and only dropping them in landscape and crafting instances? Why can't you put those in the erebor chests so I can do what I enjoy doing and still have a shot at them? Throw the solo'ers a bone as well and increase the bloody chance the crafting instance bosses drop them, since they only have 3 shots a day.


    All in all, there was so much potential for this to be an awesome expansion, but it required a bit more focus on the new instance cluster and scaled instance clusters, and probably a lot more testing. I feel an incredible disconnect between myself and the content, and I want so badly to have that back again.

    Thanks for reading

  2. #2
    dude thank you for making that post! you have just perfectly summed up group content for myself, my kin any pretty much everyone i know in game. At 65 SG was a tricky instance, needing CC to be used. Now u can run thru with 5 champs and a cappy no problem, and CC is useless pretty much. Brutes used to hit super hard but now tickle. Same for all instances. The old scaled instances used to be tough! (before the scales in their absense that is) but not they are face roll. Please lets go back and have a T2 and bring the challenge back.

  3. #3
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    I can't really say I agree with any of the 'what went right' bit, unfortunately. I agree with the rest, though.

    Instance finder - Useless, people use it purely to get currency bonuses once they already have a full group. Frankly, as long as it lumps you with a group you have no control over that may contain people with gear 20 levels out of date, it will always be useless.

    Remote looting - This goes hand in hand with the other points about drop rates/locks, but I don't like it for anything but pugs. Ok, you can still use loot distribution systems for BoE stuff, but it is very tedious trading stuff back and forth. If I get my third copy of an orange item whilst someone else in my group still hasn't got theirs after 200 runs, tough luck, all I can do is destroy it. At the very least, give the group the option to use the master loot system.

    Scaled instances - I don't want to run instances I farmed to death at level 50 at every new level cap. I fully expect the HD gearing process to involve running exactly the same scaled instances for loot with exactly the same stats but scaled up 10 levels. That's just laziness on the part of the devs, recycling old content instead of developing new.

  4. #4
    What was the drop rate for items like the [Jewelled Bell] at level 50? Those raids had a one-week lock and often took hours to complete.

    When a "raid" takes 10 minutes and can be repeated as often as the player wants, what should the drop rate for gold-quality items be today? What would be fair odds?

  5. #5
    What would be nice really is if the Turbine Devs who deal with instances would actually engage in a post like this and say why its like it is at the moment. When did the decision come for RoR content to be so easy. With orthanc lots of that content was challenging!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    What was the drop rate for items like the [Jewelled Bell] at level 50? Those raids had a one-week lock and often took hours to complete.

    When a "raid" takes 10 minutes and can be repeated as often as the player wants, what should the drop rate for gold-quality items be today? What would be fair odds?
    I never ran rift. I came in at lvl 65.
    i'm not sure if you're asking me or just asked a rhetorical question to make a point. Could you clarify?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    I can't really say I agree with any of the 'what went right' bit, unfortunately. I agree with the rest, though.

    Instance finder - Useless, people use it purely to get currency bonuses once they already have a full group. Frankly, as long as it lumps you with a group you have no control over that may contain people with gear 20 levels out of date, it will always be useless.
    2 things instance finder did. groups random people together, and gives incentive to run more content. You just agreed with me about the first purpose not being used. I said the exact same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    Remote looting - This goes hand in hand with the other points about drop rates/locks, but I don't like it for anything but pugs. Ok, you can still use loot distribution systems for BoE stuff, but it is very tedious trading stuff back and forth. If I get my third copy of an orange item whilst someone else in my group still hasn't got theirs after 200 runs, tough luck, all I can do is destroy it. At the very least, give the group the option to use the master loot system.
    I betcha it takes longer to distribute loot from orthanc than it does to trade items from smaug t2c, and not just because current drop rates are piss poor. Good point about gold items going to waste though. But that can be fixed while keeping remote looting in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    Scaled instances - I don't want to run instances I farmed to death at level 50 at every new level cap. I fully expect the HD gearing process to involve running exactly the same scaled instances for loot with exactly the same stats but scaled up 10 levels. That's just laziness on the part of the devs, recycling old content instead of developing new.
    Good point. Choosing between new content and scaling old content, i'd pick new.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I never ran rift. I came in at lvl 65.
    i'm not sure if you're asking me or just asked a rhetorical question to make a point. Could you clarify?
    I'm just asking what everyone else thinks would be fair. There seems to be a general consensus that the way things work right now is "unfair", but it's not clear to me what exactly a fair number might be.

    You already proposed odds of 5% to 10%, plus a safety net that allows the same items to be purchased with seals. If an instance takes 10 minutes to run, then the average player will spend 100 to 200 minutes to get an item. Lucky players will spend less time, and unlucky players will spend more time. The unluckiest players will presumably spend the most time, until they can purchase the desired item with seals.

    This is the specific aspect of your proposal I'm curious how others feel about.

    Personally, I don't mind if these gold-quality items are super rare and only obtainable by the luckiest of players. They've been much rarer in the past, and I kind of dislike that "teal is the new purple" and "gold is the new teal" these days.

    Pretty soon, we're going to have to invent another new color of item to keep players running on the hamster wheel.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    I'm just asking what everyone else thinks would be fair. There seems to be a general consensus that the way things work right now is "unfair", but it's not clear to me what exactly a fair number might be.

    You already proposed odds of 5% to 10%, plus a safety net that allows the same items to be purchased with seals. If an instance takes 10 minutes to run, then the average player will spend 100 to 200 minutes to get an item. Lucky players will spend less time, and unlucky players will spend more time. The unluckiest players will presumably spend the most time, until they can purchase the desired item with seals.

    This is the specific aspect of your proposal I'm curious how others feel about.

    Personally, I don't mind if these gold-quality items are super rare and only obtainable by the luckiest of players. They've been much rarer in the past, and I kind of dislike that "teal is the new purple" and "gold is the new teal" these days.

    Pretty soon, we're going to have to invent another new color of item to keep players running on the hamster wheel.
    I propose there shouldn't be any more 10 minute runs at all, and especially no farming. I don't care what the color is either, I just want to progress my character. The current system is fair, it's just not fun. Hence, the ghost towns in middle earth.
    Last edited by mrfigglesworth; May 19 2013 at 05:44 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    2 things instance finder did. groups random people together, and gives incentive to run more content. You just agreed with me about the first purpose not being used. I said the exact same thing.
    Yeah, pretty much, but I'm not sure why you put it under the 'what went right' category when it's practically never used for its intended purpose. Not that I think such a way of forming groups necessary, global user channels work fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I betcha it takes longer to distribute loot from orthanc than it does to trade items from smaug t2c, and not just because current drop rates are piss poor. Good point about gold items going to waste though. But that can be fixed while keeping remote looting in place.
    That's probably true if you include relics & IXP, those are certainly better off remotely looted. Adding locks and increasing drop rates would go a long way towards making the remote loot system more palatable, I suppose.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    -instance drop rates
    Chances for gold items are much too low. To go along with increased instance difficulty, we should have a much higher drop rate of the items we hope to acquire when we complete t2 or t2c instances. I'm thinking in the ballpark of 5-10% (might seem a bit high but keep reading) for gold items and a 30% chance for teal items (from each chest). Also, They could add another avenue for players to acquire these items, similar to the barter for first ages. Require a ridiculously high amount of seals, on top of a special currency that drops depending on the cluster. For example, If a champ wanted the annuminas bracelet he'd need 300 seals, and 10 ost elendil coins, 10 glinghant coins, and 10 haudh valandil coins. So now we'd be working toward a concrete goal or finish line. On top of that would be the exciting chance of actually winning one from a chest! The random element goes from being the dreadful "please oh please for the 300th time please be in here....sigh" feeling to "oh please let this be the one! shoot, ok....110 more seals and 5 more haudh valandil runs to go!". When people get choices built into the random element, they feel that randomness working for them.
    I'm definitely a fan of the idea that some folks have floated around for having multiple alternate routes to gold gear. Specifically, both via low random chance and from an obscene amount of seals. I appreciate you promoting that idea again here in this thread, but I really wanna give you props for pointing out how in the minds of players that'd make the random chance avenue go from soul-crushing grind to ******' serendipity were a gold to drop. I mean we're RPG players, and that kinda demographic usually likes or is at least accustomed to mile-markers or progression, which is what the seal barter option offers.

    seals + deed + something from instance --barter--> gold item
    or
    x% drop rate

    I want both of those options, a la 85 first ages

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    What was the drop rate for items like the [Jewelled Bell] at level 50? Those raids had a one-week lock and often took hours to complete.

    When a "raid" takes 10 minutes and can be repeated as often as the player wants, what should the drop rate for gold-quality items be today? What would be fair odds?
    The gold items from the rift were a different animal. You could only do it once a week and the drop rates were so low, I think people sort of just accepted that they would never get them. Just now, I tried to think of all the people I know that have wig-feld and I can only think of 2 and I don't think I know anyone that has the Jewelled Bell. Gold drops this rare and hard to acquire were never really put back into the game. There was a reason for that. Its super frustrating to raid for months and not get what you want.

    The gold items from OD/Orthanc were a much better model IMO, aside from the chance for a clasp to drop on T1. Guaranteed gold drops of some of the best items in the game every single time you beat the hardest raid boss in the game. But you're right, part of the reason that worked was because there were raid locks and the stuff was actually pretty hard/time consuming.



    I agree with pretty much everything in the OP. Except one point on the instance finder. I really enjoy getting a group of friends and just selecting every instance and doing whatever. But you can't truly select everything. Some of the older instances only have T1 options, so if you want to truly select everything. You have a chance of being put into T1 SG or Bells or something like that. It's kind of annoying, ain't nobody got time for that.

  13. #13
    I agree with most of the points made. Though people complained about raid locks, they really did server a useful purpose, and without them, rare item drops have to be extremely rare or they will be so easy to get that they are no longer rare at all.

    One idea I have thought about is to add a distributable chest to the T2C content. You get your normal auto-loot content, with its infinitesimally small chance of a much desired item, but the distributable chest guarantees one gold item or FA. The gold item could be a key ingredient that would allow you to make the gold item, similar to the clasp. Like the system suggested by the OP where you can work toward an item but might win the lottery and avoid having to grind for it, you would be able to at least partially eliminate the feeling of no one ever getting anything worthwhile, or at least reduce it to the pre-autoloot levels, and also the frustration of some people getting multiple gold items they can't even use with no way to give it to someone who can. And it would give us more motivation to run the hardest content, which the current loot system doesn't really do.

  14. #14
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    The main problem IMO is that end game raids and instances should be getting more epic as we progress aling the course of the game. That is not happening - the opposite is.

    I have no reason to care to grind a 10-minute instance 50 time for some item - for 2 main reasons:
    All end-game content, save Flight challenge (which is probably just borked in some way) is easy and typically unrewarding. I have seen ONE total 1st Age symbol drop in all challenge runs since Loot Nerf 2013 2.0.
    Second, there is no reason to repeat a challenge unless you want a rare item just to have it.

    The feeling of progression is completely absent from end-game raiding. Completely absent. I have no desire for rare items now that loot is basically completely luck-based and there are no longer challenge-exclusive DESIRABLE rewards.

    Incentive for repetition is basically absent. It feels like there's nothing to work toward anymore. Esp knowing a level-cap increase will come less than 6 months after every instance cluster forevermore... The logistics and dev philosophies are currently not catering to an end-game raider in any way whatsoever.
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  15. #15
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    Exactly same loot for T1 and T2 was the worst decision. Does not matter that symbols are now available only on T2. People already had plenty from T1 farming at the start and with current droprates you will get one faster with seals anyway. Droprates are way too low, not only symbols but also teal/golden items. Multiple golden items without possibility to exchange it for another class item or trade it is also very bad thing.

  16. #16
    biggest cause for lack of raiding motivation for me is that,

    A, the raids are too short and not particularly exciting to play.

    and

    B, All loot from 3 mans all the way up to the raids are way too similar. In fact from what ive seen of OD loot (not done it tonnes) some raid loot is actually worse that 3 man loot, and that should not be the case. Raids should be the hardest content and therefore reward with the best gear in my opinion.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarenius View Post
    .. I'm not sure why you put it under the 'what went right' category when it's practically never used for its intended purpose...
    I put it in what went right because it's still a very useful tool that's used daily, even though it may not be used the way it was intended. I still would call it a success (partially).

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    I'm definitely a fan of the idea that some folks have floated around for having multiple alternate routes to gold gear. Specifically, both via low random chance and from an obscene amount of seals. I appreciate you promoting that idea again here in this thread, but I really wanna give you props for pointing out how in the minds of players that'd make the random chance avenue go from soul-crushing grind to ******' serendipity were a gold to drop. I mean we're RPG players, and that kinda demographic usually likes or is at least accustomed to mile-markers or progression, which is what the seal barter option offers.

    seals + deed + something from instance --barter--> gold item
    or
    x% drop rate

    I want both of those options, a la 85 first ages
    Looking through my paragraph you quoted, I am realizing it may be a bit misleading. I would either

    A) Improve the chance for gold items to 5-10%, or
    B) keep the chance the same and create a barterable option for said item.

    Not both.

    That's on top of increasing difficulty of the old content, with daily locks.

 

 

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