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  1. #51
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    Is the strategy for the U11 warbands still basically the same for the RoR launch warbands? Dismount baddies, AoE adds, faceroll?
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Is the strategy for the U11 warbands still basically the same for the RoR launch warbands? Dismount baddies, AoE adds, faceroll?
    From what I've seen of them, largely yes. There's one raid warband in the south east of the zone that does offer a bit more a challenge.

    And really, until we get more serious content, we're all overthinking this - but then again, it's what the captain forums do XD
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    And really, until we get more serious content, we're all overthinking this - but then again, it's what the captain forums do XD
    It's the whole reason I come here in the first place, so let's not change that.
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  4. #54
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    I am short on time but will try to start my argument anyway:

    Insignia of Wrath makes CW-Cry Wrath crit 5% more.
    That translates in 1.25% (5%*25% dismount chance on criticals) more dismounts each 10s.
    And also outputs 7,5%( 5%*1.5 base damage o critical) more damage on average.

    Insignia of Free Speech makes OP-Opressive Blow resets CW and CH-Cry Havoc. Cooldowns.
    For most fight situations you may squeeze 1 OP in a skill rotation between CH and RtR- Rally the Riders before CH goes up again.
    The question is: can 1 OP make more dismounts and damage on average than Insignia of Wrath already gives us?
    I will assume before proceeding that base critical rating mounted is 35%( 25% + 10% from mounted yellow line) for tactical skills and that devastating damage is capped at 10%.
    OP gives us 1 CW and 1 CH 25% of the time. These skills crit 35% of the time, and of these crits 25% dismount the foe:

    25%*35%*25%*2=4,375% more dismounts- more than 3 times what Insignia of Wrath was giving us.
    Next post i will do damage average numbers, but we already see where this is going.

  5. #55
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    Now for an estimation of how much damage is added to the skill rotation while using Insignia of free speech.

    25% of the time OP will give us another CW and another CH. This implies that Free speech does at least 25% more CW damage every 10s, not counting the CH damage at all. Again, this 3 times more damage increase than Insignia of Wrath.

    Going back to the math notation of this forum:

    Insignia of Free Speech>>>Insignia of Wrath; Q.E.D

    Side notes
    -Finally we have an easy to obtain 150 Might shield: the unearthed iron shield from shool. Got mine yesterday on AH for 6g.
    -I settled for a 4.3k morale warhorse and for now i am using the +10% damage on Red dawn legacy in place of the plannned +1050 warhorse evade rating legacy. I simply like too much Red Dawn's Cry of Vengeance to give up the +10% damage on 6 targets from our most damaging skill in mounted combat 2.0.

  6. #56
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    A couple of flaws with your posts:
    1) You assume that Oppressive Blow is good enough to continually spam, when it's really not IMO. Since Oppressive Blow is a fairly close range skill, it's competing against Rally the Riders and Measured Attack. This sentiment most likely stems from my preference to use Red Dawn to quickly burn stuff down (since the single target DPS is SOOO much better in that stance).

    2) You can't do math
    ==============
    Percent improvement formula is (new - old)/old, so before determining how much you have improved, you need to determine what the old and new values are, otherwise you will assess incorrectly.

    First off, a few assumptions:
    We're talking about the top end of Light Steed Captains, so the Dismounted Crit chance is 25%. The bridle is also near perfect, so it will also give you +10% to dismount chance. Also in the yellow tree is a trait for +10% to cry crit chance.

    Putting all that together...

    Crit Chance: 25 + 10 = 35%
    Dismount Chance: 25 +10 = 35%
    Average Dismount Chance = Crit * Dismount = .35 * .35 = 0.1225

    With the relic, Crit chance for wrath goes to 40%, bringing the average dismount chance (for wrath) to: .35 & .40 = 0.14

    So while the actual improvement to the dismount chance is 0.14 - 0.1225 = 0.0175, the percent improvement is:
    (0.14-0.1225)/0.1225 = 0.142857 or 14.2857%
    ==============
    When multiplying percents, you don't do the multiplication like this:

    25% * 35% * 25% * 2 != 4375%

    It's calculated like this:

    .25 * .35 * .25 * 2 = .04375 = 4.375%

    Edit:
    Going back to the Cry Wrath Crit chance...

    35% Crit Chance means 1 in 2.8571
    40% Crit Chance means 1 in 2.5

    That's a hearty increase of DPS none-the-less.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; May 20 2013 at 03:08 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  7. #57
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    lots of numbers and words in this thread!


    heres my gut reaction to the changes: dismounting is not very reliable now.


    while my crit rate suffered a hug cut, on paper, it seems to be just as effective (minus the dismouting thing.. crits used to feel like a guaranteed dinsmout).


    can still destroy all content with two buttons. three if im feeling frisky! business as usual!


    ps- my 2000th post! all i can think of is Conan O'Brian... "in the year two thousand!"

    Last edited by SapienChavez; May 20 2013 at 03:59 PM.
    "I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
    "I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    heres my gut reaction to the changes: dismounting is not very reliable now.
    That's the conclusion I'm starting to draw too....

    It's a nice thing, but it's no where near as good as it once was.

    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    ps- my 2000th post! all i can think of is Conan O'Brian... "in the year two thousand!"

    Maybe by 3000 the images he posts will show up! =P
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  9. #59
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    I can't do Math?
    Ok, i agree.
    Totally forgot that actual dismount chance was 35% after 2 legacies.

    Explain to me like i was 5y old (you are probably too young to even recognize that quote, but anyway):

    1-Do you still state that Insignia of Wrath adds more dismounts/10s than Insignia of Free Speech or that was just a Math tantrum of a dead argument?
    2-Same question, this time regarding total damage output/10s? Do you still state that Insignia of Wrath does more damage/10s than Insignia of Free Speech?
    3-Regardless if total dismount chance is 25%/critical hit or 35%/critical hit, do you insist that i can't squeeze a SINGLE OP inside a mounted combat skill rotation like CW>CV>OP>RtR>CV>CW?

    There are 10s between each CW, and my estimations only need ONE OP to make free speech at least 3 times more effective than wrath for dismounting and damaging.

    Your math goes way beyond my humble guesses on the matter. I ballparked that Wrath would add a raw 1.25% more dismounts for each CW use, but you showed with great correction that actually Wrath adds a neat 1.75%. I am sorry. Now i must use the numbers you gave to try understand how much Free speech actually adds, since you have been silent on the subject so far

    I still state, using real gaming experience from the last week, that a Captain can without problem, use 1 Op between CW uses. I know this is too little considered that OP is a 4s cooldown and CW is a 10s cooldown, but my in game usage of the skill rotation showed me that its usually better to proceed with RtR and CH if the first OP did not reset CW+CH cooldowns.

    A-OP resets CW and CH 25% of the time.

    B- We already know from the correct Math that Almagnus1 gave us that:
    Crit Chance: 25 + 10 = 35%
    Dismount Chance: 25 +10 = 35%
    Average Dismount Chance = Crit * Dismount = .35 * .35 = 0.1225

    C- So we know that we have 2 12,25% shots at dismount when OP resets the skills.

    D-Let us proceed and guesstimate what are the odds that both CW and CH fail to dismount the foe, and reverse-guesstimate the odds that a successive skill use actually dismount the mob.

    E-For both CW and CH to fail its (1-p)^2. Or (0.8775)^2~0,77.

    F-So when firing 2 skills in succession at a 12,25% dismount chance i can expect to see the mob dismount 23% of the time.

    G-But i only have the chance to fire the 2 Crys 25% of the time i use OP, so i guesstimate now that on average 5,75%(23/4) of skills rotations will see a dismount happen because of OP + free Speech.

    H-Which is still more than 3 times the 1.75% Wrath Insignia gave.

    I-Q.E.D

  10. #60
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    I'm gonna skip 1 & 2 for the time being, and address #3....

    The entire reason why I don't like Insignia of Free Speech isn't the relic effect, it's that Measured Attack is a better skill to use than Oppressive Blow, so Oppressive Blow tends not to get used as often as Measured Attack.

    Drawing from the above skill links, and putting them in a table for easy comparison:
    Stance Measured Attack Oppressive Blow
    Red Dawn Reduces the target's Tactical Mitigation by -10% 100 Damage initially.
    42 Damage every 4 seconds for 20 seconds.
    Rohirrim Reduces target's Armour by -10%
    Generates a very small amount of threat
    Forced Attack
    Duration: 10s
    Riddermark Reduces target's movement speed by -10% Forces the Target to ride to your left or right flank for a short time.

    IMO in every stance Measured Attack has the better debuff - the lone exception is a light steed tank build that uses Rohirrim (which could be a rather interesting playstyle), and only then Opressive Blow becomes the better skill, because of the forced taunt.

    This skill disparity is one of the big reasons why I am railing on the Insignia of Free Speech. As a DPSer, I'd rather have the effect from Measured Attack up at all times in **ALL** of the stances, so that skill has a significantly higher priority in my rotation than Oppressive Blow does.

    For 1 & 2, I'll need a bit to simulate the average effects over a minute (since 10s is far too short to give us a good picture of what's going on).
    Last edited by Almagnus1; May 20 2013 at 06:37 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  11. #61
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    First, a baseline is needed, given that Cry Wrath has a cooldown of 10 seconds, and quickly going through the above process with the Cry Wrath dismount chance, (equation changes to .95 = .14 * n - .14 ^ n) to solve for n (via http://www.wolframalpha.com/)...

    n = 6.78573.

    Multiplying n by the Cry Wrath cooldown to get an average time to dismount of:

    67.8573 seconds

    Now to figure out the average effective cooldown of Cry Wrath with the Insignia of Free Speech, assuming that Oppressive Blow is being spammed.

    Oppressive Blow has a cooldown of 4.0 seconds, so in a minute, it will be used 15 times, and going off of the calculation from upthread, know that it takes roughly 3.82005 times before the proc will happen, which means of that minute of time, it will proc 3.9267 times. This means that Cry Wrath will be fired around 9.9267 (6 + 3.9267) times per minute, so the effective cooldown is now 6.0443s (60/9.9267).

    Running through the same calculations with the dismount chance 0.1225 (equation is .95 = .1225 * n - .1225 ^ n) to get an n of 7.7551, and an average time to dismount of 46.87419s.

    Bear in mind this ignores outside factors.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  12. #62
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    I think you have a valid argument now- Riddermark and Red Dawn have better effects on MA than on OP.

    And a funny situation just arise that made me understand what problems you face while riding 2h without emblem of the rider.

    I had just soled Bugud and Kramp and was moving to Gundul when a friend asked me to jon a 6-man. When i came back i felt that it was taking forever for my melee skills to spam, and then i realized that i was still with my pug 2h instead of my S&B Even with Emblem of the Rider mounted combat with a 2h is much more slow than with a 1h.

    I can not begin to imagine how slow it must feel to actually play that way. No wonder you were complaining so much about OP being hard to squeeze inside a skill rotation. MA is almost as slow as RtR. If you are using MA with a 2h there is probably not much time for RtR and PA in the same pass. with a 1h i can spam PA when i approach the mob and RtR before i

    Back to the issue you are mentioning- slowing Shaguk, Voz and Conog is only important when you are not using Command to send them away from you while your crys reset but it may be viable. Lowering armour or tactical mitigation is only useful after you dismount them. During the first and harder part of the fights spamming dismount skills is much more useful

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    heres my gut reaction to the changes: dismounting is not very reliable now.
    Maybe for us, but in my last fight with Conog he dismounted me 8 times.
    [I][FONT=Verdana]"[B]The wind of heaven is that which blows between a horse's ears.[/B]"[/FONT][/I] [SIZE=1]~ Bedouin Proverb[/SIZE]

  14. #64
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    Now for a quick and dirty Cry Wrath damage multiplier

    Using the (overly simplified) equation to give us a ballpark idea....

    = base * (1-critchance) + base *crit magnitude * crit chance

    And doing some manipulation to pull out the base damage to get an idea of what the multiplier is really doing....

    = base * (1 - crit chance + crit magnitude * crit chance)

    Assuming Crit Magnitude is 150% (which is most likely low), and running the multiplier part at 35% and 40%

    1 - .35 + 1.5 * .35 = 1.175
    1 - .4 + 1.5 * .4 = 1.2

    going with the percent change equation from upthread, and factoring out the base DPS:
    = (new - old)/old
    = (base * 1.2 - base * 1.175)/(base * 1.175)
    = base(1.2 - 1.175)/(base * 1.175)
    = (base/base) * (1.2 - 1.175) / 1.175
    = 2.1277% increase

    In order to sidestep the problem with crit multiplier being unrealistic, I'm going to use Excel to quickly generate a table that goes from 150% crit multiplier to 300% in steps of 10.

    Crit Multiplier Percent Improvement
    150% 2.1277%
    160% 2.4793%
    170% 2.8112%
    180% 3.1250%
    190% 3.4221%
    200% 3.7037%
    210% 3.9711%
    220% 4.2254%
    230% 4.4674%
    240% 4.6980%
    250% 4.9180%
    260% 5.1282%
    270% 5.3292%
    280% 5.5215%
    290% 5.7057%
    300% 5.8824%
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    Back to the issue you are mentioning- slowing Shaguk, Voz and Conog is only important when you are not using Command to send them away from you while your crys reset but it may be viable. Lowering armour or tactical mitigation is only useful after you dismount them. During the first and harder part of the fights spamming dismount skills is much more useful
    But before, it was within 15 seconds a dismount would occur, now it's between an average of 46 to 67 seconds, which is not nearly fast enough to be a reliable tactic - unless there are multiple people working on the dismounting at the same time.

    It honestly seems like one person can't handle dismounting, and there needs to be 2+, which actually works in favor of Insignia of Wrath, and against Insignia of Free Speech.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  16. #66
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    It's like reading a College Math Textbook around here sometimes (see next to above post for examples) ;P In my experience the Tac. Mastery and extra stat slices from using a Shield plus the shorter attack duration from using 1 hand give me more dmg output all around. Couple things off topic, I've noticed that the BS and DR legacy has an effect on the new cry while in MC. Also if you pop your War Banner and can either A) dismount your enemy near it or B) keep him in range of it, you and your fellows get the buff. I imagine this works with all of them but I've only tried it with the one.

    Question: If a Light WS leaves from Garsfield travelling at 15 mph and a Medium WS leaves from Eaworth travelling at 14.5 mph, both without using Dash, which will make it to Forlaw first. Thinking Cap time fellas. ;p

    Real Question: I've noticed that the new Cry in Red Dawn is AoE but not in Riddermark, so they swap with Cry Wrath depending on which stance you are in. My question is this: Which is more effective, the shorter AoE CD in Riddermark or the higher dmg output of the AoE in Red Dawn? Even with it being gated behind a DR in Red Dawn, which isn't hard to come by for us, this thing hits like Barry Bonds and I can pop it off pretty frequently.
    Last edited by Steppenwulf; May 21 2013 at 05:10 AM.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    This is matching my experience, too, with the main difference being that I use a Heavy steed instead -- so I'm getting even more damage, relatively, out of the melee attacks than the cries.
    What is your build on the heavy steed. I had a buddy that made a 1st age heavy bridle for his cappy and was so hyped up about it. Talking about how it made him a god. Then bam. He quit playing. I keep hoping he will log on so I can quiz him about what is good for heavy steed.

    Up till now I've not really gotten into the mounted combat thing. I mean I rode out and killed bug once a day but didn't need to learn mounted combat to do that.

    So if I'm looking at putting some time into mounted combat and making a 1st age bridle (heavy) for high survivability going toe to toe -- switching to healing line back to damage.

    What legs on bridle, what build. Get me started.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandie2 View Post
    What is your build on the heavy steed. I had a buddy that made a 1st age heavy bridle for his cappy and was so hyped up about it. Talking about how it made him a god. Then bam. He quit playing. I keep hoping he will log on so I can quiz him about what is good for heavy steed.

    Up till now I've not really gotten into the mounted combat thing. I mean I rode out and killed bug once a day but didn't need to learn mounted combat to do that.

    So if I'm looking at putting some time into mounted combat and making a 1st age bridle (heavy) for high survivability going toe to toe -- switching to healing line back to damage.

    What legs on bridle, what build. Get me started.
    Here's my build: ( https://imageshack.us/a/img163/5408/jcj4.jpg for full size)



    I've just plotted MC points where it seemed the best, I haven't bothered to test out different builds as the damage is nice already. With heavy steed and Ride For Ruin activated I have 50% crit chance + 5% Cry crit chance on LI and +10% from MC traits, which makes Riddermark Cry Wrath an AoE slaughterhouse. When you charge a Warband you'll destroy the adds with 1 or 2 Cry Wraths, which makes them a lot faster to solo IMO.
    I only hit 3 targets in this case but it still did a decent 55k damage and 26.7k on 1 target.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Nascephor View Post
    Shaguk is another matter altogether, 5 mounted Elite master and a mounted Nemesis. Any person who solo this without dying will be considered a Middle Earth hero.
    It is not too difficult to solo as Champ (Light bridle/Blue for better self healing), in particular once adds are dismounted.
    But I could not dismount Shaguk last time : Shaguk solo

 

 
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