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  1. #1
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    Axing Tactics and Motivation

    A bit of a random thought, but how about completely removing all of our OOC buffs (except IDoME), and replacing them with either active buffing skills, auras, and/or stances?

    The upside to this: this would not only pull the legacies that make up a buffstick from the legacy pool, but it would also remove one of the biggest time sinks with raiding.

    Thoughts/comments/flames?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  2. #2
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    More auras seem to equal more lag. Not that I wasn't happy when IDoME changed to a toggle, but I would have been just as pleased if its duration were increased to 30 minutes. Personally, I don't find buffing to be one of the biggest timesinks in raiding. It takes about 15 seconds. I'm usually done buffing before the group is otherwise ready to go, though I have been in groups where the Captain is the bottleneck.

    That said, I could do with a raid-wide Motivating Speech (saves fiddling with the groups) and rolling legacy increases into the base skill. I like how you can choose which Tactic to give to each player--I can't imagine an aura having that sort of detail. They'd have to give all the same buffs to everyone, and would probably be less potent as a result. I'd rather see the Tactics improved slightly (or greatly, for Focus), or even new, more creative Tactics.
    Last edited by Frisco; May 10 2013 at 05:28 PM.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    More auras seem to equal more lag. Not that I wasn't happy when IDoME changed to a toggle, but I would have been just as pleased if its duration were increased to 30 minutes. Personally, I don't find buffing to be one of the biggest timesinks in raiding. It takes about 15 seconds. I'm usually done buffing before the group is otherwise ready to go, though I have been in groups where the Captain is the bottleneck.

    That said, I could do with a raid-wide Motivating Speech (saves fiddling with the groups) and rolling legacy increases into the base skill. I like how you can choose which Tactic to give to each player--I can't imagine an aura having that sort of detail. They'd have to give all the same buffs to everyone, and would probably be less potent as a result. I'd rather see the Tactics improved slightly (or greatly, for Focus), or even new, more creative Tactics.
    I've been the only captain in 24 man moors raids. Let me tell you, buffing everyone was a real chore.

    That said, buffs as they are are pretty powerful but not "fun" to my way of thinking. The most "fun" skill in my book is SoTD. I don't always slot it, mind you, but I feel so epic when I bubble someone and save them from death. Somehow it is more epic than IHW, though that is fun too. My point, which agrees with OP, is that active skills where timing matters are more fun, while "routine" skills out of combat are just a chore. There is a bit of skill buffing, like squeezing it in after rezzing somebody in combat among your other responsibilities, but that is about it.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    I've been the only captain in 24 man moors raids. Let me tell you, buffing everyone was a real chore.

    That said, buffs as they are are pretty powerful but not "fun" to my way of thinking. The most "fun" skill in my book is SoTD. I don't always slot it, mind you, but I feel so epic when I bubble someone and save them from death. Somehow it is more epic than IHW, though that is fun too. My point, which agrees with OP, is that active skills where timing matters are more fun, while "routine" skills out of combat are just a chore. There is a bit of skill buffing, like squeezing it in after rezzing somebody in combat among your other responsibilities, but that is about it.
    I'm certainly not saying that active skill buffs are bad, I'm just saying that I don't want them to replace our current Tactics. I like that some of our skills are both powerful, yet "set it and forget it". I have plenty to do in battle already. We'll have 10 levels coming up soon, I'm all for a couple skills being added to actively and situationally buff. New skills are pretty much the only positive and exciting thing coming out of cap increases (not that the cap increase is necessary to add skills, or that I don't just love killing boars in multiples of 10).
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  5. #5
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    I love SotD and IHW, too. I only wish IHW came with more of a clear visual effect to indicate what's going on. (And when it stops.)

    The Tactics and Motivation skills have been something that bugged me for a long time. They're so strong you can't just ignore them, but they're also not very fun.

    The thing I'd want to avoid in trying to make them more "active" is turning them into the old 5-minute IDOME. I could see that being a real risk if you just turned them into clicky skills that buffed the whole group or raid.

    Just to throw something at the wall, what if Motivating Speech became a basic effect of all banners? And then the Hope banner would just have a bigger bonus. Though that does cause problems with only one fellowship in a raid getting the buff, unless you always run with two Captains.

    The Tactics are a harder thing to figure out. Just turning them into auras doesn't make them automatically more fun, and that also has the problem that you'd only ever see Captains using the Relentless Attack "aura". As opposed to now, where we at least hand out a Parry buff to the tank.

    I think I'd like to see something where our buffs occur or unlock in response to gameplay events. Like, I think War-Cry is a really good buff skill for this reason. It's something you have to think about keeping up, rather than just setting it once ever 30 minutes, pressing a button for it every 2 minutes (*cough*SoW*cough*), or toggling it on once and forgetting about it (IDOME, though it's better than it was).
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    I'm certainly not saying that active skill buffs are bad, I'm just saying that I don't want them to replace our current Tactics. I like that some of our skills are both powerful, yet "set it and forget it". I have plenty to do in battle already. We'll have 10 levels coming up soon, I'm all for a couple skills being added to actively and situationally buff. New skills are pretty much the only positive and exciting thing coming out of cap increases (not that the cap increase is necessary to add skills, or that I don't just love killing boars in multiples of 10).
    We really do need a skill pruning before we get too many more skills.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  7. #7
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    IIRC, based on the Twitter dev chats, pruning skills is one of the stated goals of the class revamps. The extent of this pruning, on the other hand, has yet to be announced.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  8. #8
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    Hmm.... going off of the tactics idea for a second...

    What we have are three mutually exclusive effects for any given freep.

    What if we had a choice between three mutually exclusive buffs that were tied to three mutually exclusive skills? The skills would be an agro related skill, a damage skill, and a healing skill - and whenever one was used, all three would go on cooldown.

    Edit:
    What if the skills also consumed the state buff from the SL/BS => DB/PA => BoE chain of skills and/or a defeat response to do different things depending on which buffs you currently have. (Those are Battle-Ready, Battle-Hardened, and Light of Elendil, I think)

    Edit 2:
    Why not revamp the entire class to work around our primary skill chain and the XBros?

    That would definitely allow us to both prune skills AND do more active buffing WHILE being more dynamic.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; May 11 2013 at 12:34 AM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  9. #9
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    I was actually envisioning something that could be tied to the defeat events, rather than the Battle- chain. I feel like the Battle- chain is better suited to a pure DPS rotation than buffing (though if some skills in the chain also grant buffs as a side effect, like BoE does, that's fine and appropriate).

    However, Almagnus, I do like your idea of tying the Tactics buffs to skills with different effects. Actually, some of our Mounted Combat skills already work a bit like this. Relentless Attacks could activate a Shadow's Lament-like big single attack or else a sort of single-target multi-attack DPS skill. On Guard could give either a small-to-moderate AoE heal (no HoT, though, it wouldn't be the new Rallying Cry or anything). Focus could be completely redone so that's it's effectively the Now For Wrath power restore, uncoupled from RC and NfW. War-Cry would gain the AoE damage shout from Routing Cry.

    Actually, the more I think about it, maybe the existing DE skills should just gain the Tactics buffs as an after-effect, except that War-Cry and Routing Cry would be combined, with Focus replacing it as a new skill.

    Rallying Cry -> On Guard
    Routing Cry -> War-Cry
    Shadow's Lament -> Relentless Attacks
    Focus = Power restore + PoT

    The DE skills would be otherwise unchanged. The Tactics buffs would have some long duration, longer than the DE skill that activates them. Maybe just keep it at 1 minute, since that seems to work for War-Cry. What I'm split on is whether they should be allowed to stack with one another. First instinct is no, but it could be fun to have some short duration (~4s or so) where the old Tactic persists before expiring.

    Then there's legacies. All the Tactics legacies go away forever and then we forget they ever existed. Deal? Since, for example, Relentless Attacks would be mutually exclusive (barring perhaps a short overlap) from War-Cry, and since they'd all require some work to maintain, I think it would be appropriate if the new Tactics all had the full magnitude they would have with the legacies.

    However, I kind of like the idea of letting trait bonuses affect the Tactics as well. I'm thinking mainly of 2-trait set bonuses for this. Like, 2Y gives the Captain double the effect from On Guard, 2R gives double the effect from War-Cry and Relentless Attacks, 2B gives double the effect from Focus. Or, the 2-trait bonuses "unlock" an associated Tactic so that -- only on the Captain -- it's no longer mutually exclusive from the others. So a Captain with 2LoM could use Rallying Cry to get On Guard, then use Focus and have both On Guard and Focus at the same time. Ditto 2LtC using Shadow's Lament to get Relentless Attacks and then using Routing Cry to have both Relentless Attacks and War-Cry up. Everyone else in the fellowship would only have the last-used Tactic, as normal.

    What does everybody think of something like that? I think it could be more fun, and IMO it solves the Rallying Cry Problem as well. (Yes, having a spam heal is still good, but it would be tied to the Tactic: On Guard. So you can't RC spam and also have Relentless Attacks up on the whole fellowship all the time. You'd have to decide whether the benefits of spam healing offset the DPS lost. Although you could RC spam and still have Relentless Attacks up on yourself, so it wouldn't necessarily murder the crit-cry build dead. Just wound it.)
    Last edited by furtim; May 11 2013 at 11:48 AM.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  10. #10
    Why not just make 3 Auras?

    say...

    -10% Attack Duration
    +5-10% Dmg
    +1,000-1,500 Crit
    +300 In Cb Power Regen

    Tank type:
    -5% Incoming DMG
    +10-15% Morale
    +500 Phys + Tact Mit
    +300 In Cb Morale Regen

    Healing type:
    -10% Healing Threat
    +5% Power Power & Morale
    +150 Morale AND In Cb power Regen
    +500 Crit
    +5% Out Going Healing

    of course we could use different type of traits to boost these to further better the auras.

    They could have 30secs to 1min CD with 2-4sec induction that way you can't toggle them on and off on stop. although I do see the Motivation problem and the otherside not getting the buffs, well they could make it Raid wide or people can just fight over who gets the Cappy :P
    Last edited by The_Divine; May 11 2013 at 03:57 PM.

  11. #11
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    one the surface... im ok with it.

    but then i remember that some content is designed to not work well with this stuff. Helegrod and OD come to mind. splitting the gorup ups even more than the usualy 6man groups...

    if the devs keep designing content that splits the groups and imnot cool with this... design content where we stay in-range of these aura buffs and i am ok with it.

    personally, i didnt like the IDoME change. still dont really. well, its ok... doesnt KILL my enjoyment or anything.
    "I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
    "I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me

  12. #12
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    Eh, I hate both the old and new versions of IDOME. But that's another story. :P
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

 

 

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