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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    You'll never get a straight answer regarding active accounts, not that it even matters...
    Sapience is hinting at LotRO having upwards of 4.75KK players/accounts? No way. Maybe that's how many accounts have ever been created in the 6+ years the game has been live, but it speaks nothing to the quality, activity or longevity of this game.

    A healthy MMO with a bright outlook does not pull the kind of &&&& we have going on and coming soon.
    Even 475K active (daily) players, I would wager, is a healthy exaggeration. In the global MMO community, this game barely registers. That's not a number, but it's sure as hell an indicator. No one talks about LotRO outside this forum, the old Codies forum and Turbine's historical pocket e-zines.
    Exactly. To this day, most pc gamers and even mmo gamers is not aware of Lotro's existence also Lotr is not half as popular as people think it is. It's a cute little story but story told, the end for most people. Most big IPs are being forgotten and people really don't care for them after the hype is over... Maybe exception of Star Wars, cuz it's too big to be forgotten. It's a cult

  2. #27
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    while the sites listed by the OP might not be 100% accurate, they are at least upfront about where they get their data. i would love to know how many non-lifetime VIP accounts there are right now but that is something that we can only guess about.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    I was referring to the estimated percentage.
    It would seem to me that Sapience is saying that less than 10% ("single digit") of ALL PLAYERS OF LOTRO participate in Pvmp. Which is more likely a single digit number closer to 5 than to 10! Indicating that that the more vocal part of the pvmp community here on these forums are really just a small percentage of a small percentage!

    Turbine has shown that it does and has listened to its player base in the past but not necessarily what we may ask in these forums unless it is supported in other areas that they use to gather consumer data.

    Bottom line is that the unpopular changes being made to pvmp (held by the seemingly many who have posted their concerns about such changes in this latest update 11) are actually insignificant from a developer/company viewpoint to constitute a reversal in these game related decisions...


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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferthcott View Post
    The question is, what is the scariest thing LOTRO's competitors could do with it?
    Targetted marketing essentially. Ie, pick the percentage of player type that's the lowest in this game, and a competitor will use that to "prove" that their game is superior.

    I don't think Blizzard is required to report, otherwise Turbine/WB would have to report also. All they need to report is the financials. Blizzard reports the player numbers because they're the biggest game and it's a source of pride to keep bragging about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    In the global MMO community, this game barely registers. That's not a number, but it's sure as hell an indicator. No one talks about LotRO outside this forum, the old Codies forum and Turbine's historical pocket e-zines.
    All older games have a smaller chat index, people tend to talk about the new games, even new games that are small. New is exciting, old is boring. WoW is an exception, but that's because it's big and it's the one most games try to copy.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Targetted marketing essentially. Ie, pick the percentage of player type that's the lowest in this game, and a competitor will use that to "prove" that their game is superior.
    There's far better way to dissuade new players interested in PvMP from joining:
    - have them look @ MP section of forums and get past default level of complaining that is common for every other game only to find more complaining, not necessarily default for every other game;
    - have them read more or less official statements on how it is (effectively) considered a side-affair;
    - have them create new creep for a preview, then have them spend a while picking up their entrails scattered from Grams to TR;
    - have them told they can always (kinda should) buy better entrails in Store.

    There's also far better way to prevent people from ragequitting: less poorly reasoned decisions.

    Finally, if there's anyone here who would be significantly influenced by forbidden knowledge, that eg. GW2, CoD or Hello Kitty has 4325,5 more players engaging in PvP, in making a decision to leave LOTRO / avoid Moors / avoid supporting Turbine with cash, please stand up.

  6. #31
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    Nice try, the result was clearly predictable.

    I would like to emphasize an argument again - why knowing the number of pvp players would not be THAT useful at all... When you speak about number of players, pvp-minority, store earnings and so on, you actually can't participate in two groups of end content user (pve - pvp). Let me explain what I'm talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by SongSinger View Post
    ...
    However, the fact is that even if only about 10% of the game population participate in the 'moors on a fairly regular basis, we get far less than 10% of Turbine's developmental resources put our way. Obviously many of that 10% are going to PvE freepside and will need expansions, new quest packs etc to keep them coming back to the game, but I would suggest that the PvMP section of this game gets no more than 1% of developers time allocated to it.

    In other words, the 10% of the population that enjoy and participate in the 'moors are effectively helping to support the development of content that appeals to the other 90%.
    ...
    When you finished your build and the current raids / quest region bores you, there are 3 possibilities:
    (a) level your twink. If they don't publish the next raids in time, level the next twink. And so on.
    (b) stop playing Lotro and come back if new content arrives.
    (c) pve end content ist boring -> alternate to pvp end content!

    My point is that you can't think of 10% (your guess; doesn't matter regardless of whether 1%, 10%, 15% or 20%) of all players who play continuous pvp. Many of them prefer pve content and will disappear every time we get new pve stuff. So...
    @SongSinger: Your second quoted paragraph is nonsense. Turbine puts more developmental resources in pve, because it's the issue that most players - even lots of pvper! - await. If you try to figure out the number of "pvp ONLY" (or "pvp is above pve") players, you will see why it's called a mini minority...

    Oh, and don't get me wrong, I prefer pvp and I'm bored by pve nearly all time!^^ If I had my way, freeps could and might get all equip and virtues (pvp-only of course ) in the moors...


    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbullets View Post
    ...
    Oh, and allow non-VIP freeps to play in the moors. Perhaps they can pay once to unlock a character, similar to creeps. It would really help more casual freeps to come back and play (including my own freep toon), thereby keeping the moors populated and interesting.
    "Similar to creeps" would mean that you unlock a class and not a character. That allows to play e. g. champion across multiple servers. I'd love it...!
    I think that Turbine fears to loose many vips then - in fact, all "only pvp" freep players. I'm not sure, but anyway it won't be that complicated to find a solution. Example: vips get 650 tp monthly, and everyone (free players also!) has to pay 350 tp to unlock the moors for one month! Numbers alterable.

  7. #32
    Time to do a server merge to make populations better..jesus god almighty just do it!!!

  8. #33
    I believe that pvpers in lotro is at the lowest % of people that its ever been due to what RoR brought with it. I know I stopped playing pvp in lotro and lotro completely for the first time ever since RoR came out. I do think some server merges for the lower pop servers would be kind of good at this point. I was opposed to it before because I never thought the pvp in lotro would get THIS bad, but idk, maybe it would add some spice to the lower pop servers, as it would breed competition amongst the original server players vs other original server players on one server.

    Btw, thanks for the statistics. It just shows that people actually participated in pvp and Turbine should do something with it. I like to believe that number was a bit higher when pvp was in its prime.
    Last edited by joshy8910; Jul 19 2013 at 04:31 PM.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    I believe that pvpers in lotro is at the lowest % of people that its ever been due to what RoR brought with it. I know I stopped playing pvp in lotro and lotro completely for the first time ever since RoR came out. I do think some server merges for the lower pop servers would be kind of good at this point. I was opposed to it before because I never thought the pvp in lotro would get THIS bad, but idk, maybe it would add some spice to the lower pop servers, as it would breed competition amongst the original server players vs other original server players on one server.

    Btw, thanks for the statistics. It just shows that people actually participated in pvp and Turbine should do something with it. I like to believe that number was a bit higher when pvp was in its prime.
    Sapience has stated previously that the percentage of players in the moors has been remarkably stable, even through RoR.


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  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Sapience has stated previously that the percentage of players in the moors has been remarkably stable, even through RoR.
    while I'm somewhat dubious of the accuracy of that statement (or honesty, if you prefer), that means RoR was a pretty big flop for Turbine.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    while I'm somewhat dubious of the accuracy of that statement (or honesty, if you prefer), that means RoR was a pretty big flop for Turbine.
    I think you could say a lot of things about Sapience, but I don't believe he's ever intentionally spread false information. No one is holding his feet to the fire to respond to threads like this at all, he could always just cloak himself in company policy, which is to not discuss player populations at all.

    LOTRO is 6 years old. I think as compared to most other MMOs at this point in their life cycles it's doing fairly well; from what I understand the former "big 3" pop servers have been surpassed by other servers as newer players are directed by the launcher to select other servers. This is normal for an MMO: my old world of warcraft server (destromath) was medium population for the first year of the game, grew to high pop, but has since dwindled to low pop as new players were directed to other servers when they came into the game (it's now a low pop server).


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  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    I think you could say a lot of things about Sapience, but I don't believe he's ever intentionally spread false information. No one is holding his feet to the fire to respond to threads like this at all, he could always just cloak himself in company policy, which is to not discuss player populations at all.

    LOTRO is 6 years old. I think as compared to most other MMOs at this point in their life cycles it's doing fairly well; from what I understand the former "big 3" pop servers have been surpassed by other servers as newer players are directed by the launcher to select other servers. This is normal for an MMO: my old world of warcraft server (destromath) was medium population for the first year of the game, grew to high pop, but has since dwindled to low pop as new players were directed to other servers when they came into the game (it's now a low pop server).
    Perhaps not the best wording on my part. I mean to say that he said what he said in such a way that it suits the platform that best fits the model He and turbine want to put forward. What he says may be completely true and factual by most accounts, but I do not personally believe that even if it is, it accurately represents the trends and population of the Moors.

    I wasn't talking about individual server populations. http://dailystats.theblackappendage....al-pvmp-trends shows a boom in PvMP population shortly after F2P launch, which supports the statement that turbine massively increased their player-base with F2P, and then shows a quite meaningful drop in PvMP population over the course of RoR compared to a relatively stable level from F2P launch through the end of RoI. If that chart and sapience's statement both represent fact, the game has shed about 20% of its players with RoR.

    edit: just checked when F2P actually went live, it seems the jump in population came well after F2P launch. Did BAOS only track NA servers until In their absence was released, or did the leaderboard go through a major overhaul in this time period?
    Last edited by spelunker; Jul 19 2013 at 07:36 PM.
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Sapience has stated previously that the percentage of players in the moors has been remarkably stable, even through RoR.
    I learned a long time ago not to listen to everything relayed by employees of Turbine when it comes to pvp . I honestly would believe a legitimate community member with information regarding pvp like yourself rather than believe what Turbine has to say. There was more pvpers back in the day than there is now, as I've obviously noticed there was way more people out there and from the context of the forums, one can allude a lot of people left, such as myself haha. "Remarkably stable" can mean anything in Turbine's context.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    while I'm somewhat dubious of the accuracy of that statement (or honesty, if you prefer), that means RoR was a pretty big flop for Turbine.
    ^ This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    I think you could say a lot of things about Sapience, but I don't believe he's ever intentionally spread false information. No one is holding his feet to the fire to respond to threads like this at all, he could always just cloak himself in company policy, which is to not discuss player populations at all.

    LOTRO is 6 years old. I think as compared to most other MMOs at this point in their life cycles it's doing fairly well; from what I understand the former "big 3" pop servers have been surpassed by other servers as newer players are directed by the launcher to select other servers. This is normal for an MMO: my old world of warcraft server (destromath) was medium population for the first year of the game, grew to high pop, but has since dwindled to low pop as new players were directed to other servers when they came into the game (it's now a low pop server).
    I'm not saying Sapience is a liar himself, I'm saying what he is supposed to relay as deemed fit by Turbine is where the lies come in :P.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Perhaps not the best wording on my part. I mean to say that he said what he said in such a way that it suits the platform that best fits the model He and turbine want to put forward. What he says may be completely true and factual by most accounts, but I do not personally believe that even if it is, it accurately represents the trends and population of the Moors.

    I wasn't talking about individual server populations. http://dailystats.theblackappendage....al-pvmp-trends shows a boom in PvMP population shortly after F2P launch, which supports the statement that turbine massively increased their player-base with F2P, and then shows a quite meaningful drop in PvMP population over the course of RoR compared to a relatively stable level from F2P launch through the end of RoI. If that chart and sapience's statement both represent fact, the game has shed about 20% of its players with RoR.

    edit: just checked when F2P actually went live, it seems the jump in population came well after F2P launch. Did BAOS only track NA servers until In their absence was released, or did the leaderboard go through a major overhaul in this time period?
    The jump is likely from the takeover of the EU servers.


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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Half as many as might be if it was better developed >.<
    ^ This.
    +Moose+ tells you, 'Do you still need me to put the smack down on this foe??'

  16. #41
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    As Turbine is wholly owned by Warner Brothers, I believe in the simple truth of the $ where their actions are concerned. Their interest and investment in PVMP is proportional to the number of players, and more specifically, the number of Turbine points spent by players who play in the Moors. We could try to crunch numbers all we like about player numbers, but the truth, I think, is found in Turbine's handling of the Moors. I think we all have our own conclusions about what that handling or mishandling tells us and I won't go into it here.

    It's hard not to feel like this game is rolling on a downward plane and Turbine, at this point, is trying to hold on to it's base rather than energetically expanding it. Years ago, PVMP could have been kept relevant but was not. As a result, players who really like PVP have left for other games that offer it in a meaningful way. I think they realize they are too far down this road to turn the PVMP decline around. Some bridges have been burned and you are highly unlikely to get NEW players who are pvp focused. Otherwise, you'd NEVER hear such a thing as a dev saying that balance will be looked at after Helm's Deep. Helm's Deep released in the fall, instance cluster later in the fall...hopefully. The 'monitoring' of the new class changes and their affect on the Moors takes place for a time. Will they have time to look at it in an update after that? I think even an optimist would have to say Moors won't get changes until after Christmas. If you're unhappy with the state of the Moors right now, that's an awfully bleak picture being painted by Turbine (or my interpretation thereof).

    It will be a very sad thing that in this MMO rendering of Middle Earth, we'll never have players delving into the struggle in PVP maps based around Isengard/Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith/Barad Dur.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by SirAndrose View Post
    As Turbine is wholly owned by Warner Brothers, I believe in the simple truth of the $ where their actions are concerned. Their interest and investment in PVMP is proportional to the number of players, and more specifically, the number of Turbine points spent by players who play in the Moors. We could try to crunch numbers all we like about player numbers, but the truth, I think, is found in Turbine's handling of the Moors. I think we all have our own conclusions about what that handling or mishandling tells us and I won't go into it here.

    It's hard not to feel like this game is rolling on a downward plane and Turbine, at this point, is trying to hold on to it's base rather than energetically expanding it. Years ago, PVMP could have been kept relevant but was not. As a result, players who really like PVP have left for other games that offer it in a meaningful way. I think they realize they are too far down this road to turn the PVMP decline around. Some bridges have been burned and you are highly unlikely to get NEW players who are pvp focused. Otherwise, you'd NEVER hear such a thing as a dev saying that balance will be looked at after Helm's Deep. Helm's Deep released in the fall, instance cluster later in the fall...hopefully. The 'monitoring' of the new class changes and their affect on the Moors takes place for a time. Will they have time to look at it in an update after that? I think even an optimist would have to say Moors won't get changes until after Christmas. If you're unhappy with the state of the Moors right now, that's an awfully bleak picture being painted by Turbine (or my interpretation thereof).

    It will be a very sad thing that in this MMO rendering of Middle Earth, we'll never have players delving into the struggle in PVP maps based around Isengard/Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith/Barad Dur.
    Even with WB intrusion, which we all thought at the time would be a good thing for pvp and the game actually, idk if things would have played out much differently involving pvp. They had the same mindset about pvp before WB even stepped in, but perhaps WB even furthered its hindrance along.

  18. #43
    Read between the lines: PvP in this game is not considered a huge login draw for active players, thus justifying the lack of emphasis on development of this aspect. Considering there are other PvP venues that put this to shame and even Turbine is developing a MOBA style game, I would say anyone still spending time in the moors regularly is in the huge minority of not only lotro regulars but MMO/MOBA/OFPS enthusiasts altogether. There will still be some, heck even runescape has its niche, but don't expect resources to be allocated to keeping balance in PvP. the PvP playerbase would have t be huge spenders to make a difference. After class revamps we should see some interesting commentary, but it will be just that. Turbine's focus on RPG and frilly stuff is fine, that is their chosen route, but their neglect of skirm potential, of PvP potential and their focus on raidgrindfail have left me logging in to simply keep in touch with a few old friends that can't let go. Well that and the general bugginess and unpolished feel of all that is now PvE.

  19. #44
    We may be a minority but Im pretty sure sapience cant say we arent making them money.

    The only thing that comes to mind when i think of roleplayers buying items in the turbine store is outfits and horses. The ones that are crazy about having all the horses are also doing every deed they can get their hands on therefore making a lot of turbine points from deeds instead of buying it.

    PVPers on the other...cmon now. Turbine must have made a fortune off creeps buying skills in the turbine store. Buying creep classes in the turbine store. Creeps buying keys for their lootboxes back when mordi brands were available. Im pretty sure everyone knows somebody that is one of those super pay to win freaks that spends about 7 dollars worth of buffs everytime they step out to pvp. Renown buffs from the turbine store...and let us not forget all the tracks that are also bought in the turbine store on a daily basis by hundreds.

    I understand why they dont want to make this a pvp game, some people just dont want to deal with the pressure. Lets face facts, PVPers are never happy as a whole no matter what you do for them. It would also put turbine on the spot ; they would be in a way more competitive place since there are so many pvp games...and what community is more competitive then the pvp community.

    Im a pvper, and honestly there is only 2 things that have me still plying this game for its pvp.
    · its not mirrored pvp
    · it doesnt have the universal cooldown mechanic most games have ( you know, the games where you hit 1 skill and all the others share its cooldown...i hate that. I love the attack duration mechanic we have here.
    I do it for the lulz. ~SnH~
    People @ turbine/WB are a huge tease, but dont worry they end up screwing you on every update/expansion.
    " When enough scrubs get together, they accomplish great things "

  20. #45
    On Vilya I'd wager the Moors lost 20-40% population since RoI (likely 50% since SoA).

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Sapience has stated previously that the percentage of players in the moors has been remarkably stable, even through RoR.
    I believe he said that it was stable 'as a percentage of the overall LOTRO population'. That would make sense. 7% in the good times, 7% in the bad times, for example. The statement he made was conveniently vague though. It could also have meant 10% in the good times, 5% in the bad times, for example...both being somewhat inconsequential in the overall scheme of things, stable in their insignificant status :P

    I do like the idea, as Nyyx said, that the sides are not 'mirrored'. I think it creates some extra room for humans to be creative in their efforts at attacking problems instead of accessing the spreadsheet. Sadly that makes perceived balance unachievable overall and practical balance difficult at best...even when you have time to dedicate toward it, which Turbine clearly doesn't.

    I like the persistent, open map idea instead of being fully instanced in 3v3, 6v6, etc. I doubt I'll find unmirrored sides and a persistent map again in another game.
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