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  1. #1
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    The number of players playing PvMP in LOTRO

    In various discussion threads, I saw several people using the words "minority" when describing the PvMP population within LOTRO. As far as I know, Turbine does nor release any official numbers on the amount of subscriptions, let alone the percentage of players taking part in PvMP.

    Let me try to summarize what numbers are publicly available. These numbers are derived from the various websites that use the myLOTRO database. While they may not be accurate in the total amount of players, some sites give insight how many players are actively playing PvMP.

    Let's crunch a few numbers from various sources:
    • Dailystats: the Dailystats PvMP leaderboard website tracks how many toons have their infamy/renown changed on a daily basis. This gives an estimation of how many players engage in PvMP every day, but it does not tell us what the % of accounts is of players playing PvMP. In the period 2011-2013 you can see that the number of players entering the Moors is around 8,000 - 10,000 per day on all the servers. (source)
    • Surugi stats: This website lists all R3+ toons (so not the ones that tried PvMP once and decided it's not for them). Unfortunately, it only lists the US servers, and not the former EU servers. On the 15 US LOTRO servers, there were 68,896 rank 3+ toons recorded in 2012. Ofcourse this does not tell you anything about the number of accounts/players that play PvMP. However, the website does allow us to see the amount of toons that were logged every week, giving an idea of how many play PvMP actively. In the months November-December 2012 those numbers were consistently between 7,000 and 8,000. This means that around 11% of the R3+ toons is played on a weekly basis.
    • LOTROaltfinder: This website uses the myLOTRO data. I'm not sure if it tracks all active accounts, but it gives us an estimation of how many players there are and how many people have, for example, created a monster toon. The website does work on an account basis, not on a toon basis, so that gives us a better impression of how many players engage in PvMP. According to the website, of the 475,000 unique accounts there are, almost 56,000 have a max level (lvl 85) creep. This means that 11.7% of the registered accounts has tried PvMP at least once. This does not mean they are actively playing PvMP, though.
    • If we combine those data: there are (according to LOTROaltfinder) around 750,000 toons listed on the US servers. According to Surugi stats 69,000 of them are R3+ toons. This means that 9% of the US toons is a rank 3+ PvMP toon.
    • This German website tries to log the number of weekly logins on all servers. The US servers have roughly 1,500,000 logins per week (215,000/day) and the EU servers have roughly 800,000 logins per week (115,000/day). If 10,000 players play PvMP per day, this would mean that around 3% of all logins includes PvMP activity.


    Conclusion
    Based on the available data, It would be my rough estimate that around 10% of the LOTRO players engages in PvMP. That would mean at least 50,000 players. Of those players, around 10-15% plays PvMP on a weekly basis. Around 3% of all logins includes PvMP activity.

    Are PvMP-ers a minority?
    Yes, obviously we are.
    But we are not a small minority. If you take paying customers into account, the % of PvMPers will be higher, since PvMPers include freeps that pay for Ettenmoors access by a subscription and (b) creeps that most likely have used the store because of the conveniences it offers.

    Do PvMPers on the forums represent the PvMP community
    Well, if let's say 300 players would post their opinion on a matter that would be around 0.6% of PvMPers. Although many newspaper articles are based on such samples in national queries, one can ask whether it is a good and balanced sample.

    Final remarks
    PvMPers are a minority, but not a small minority. I can think of many ways to increase the number of players taking part in PvMP, which will result in more revenue for Turbine. That requires PvMP to be handled by the devs with some attention and with care. But I think most of us agree that PvMP in LOTRO has a lot of (unexplored) potential.
    Last edited by Azshakh; May 10 2013 at 07:06 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azshakh View Post
    Although many newspaper articles are based on such samples in national queries, one can ask whether it is a good and balanced sample.
    It's not, for the simple reason that a lot people will sign up to a forum - especially a game forum - to complain about something. They will, naturally, be the more outspoken sort of person.

    What I will say, is that no matter how methodical your method only Turbine have the 100% accurate, fully verified data on anything.

    The log in numbers, for example, don't differentiate between accounts. I know for a fact that I've logged in three times today. One of them, admittedly, was the result of pressing exit game instead of log out but still.

    Even if 10% of the player base do PvMP the problem for Turbine is that 90% don't. This means that if any PvMP content (revamp, map or whatever) is created then an undeniably substantial majority will be ignored.

    Not in the sense that they won't get any content, but in the sense that content that can both be marketed - raids, instances, skirmishes can all be sold in the store. Ignoring fluff content like cosmetics and steeds - and appeal to a wide audience then Turbine will go that route. That's where the money is.

    Sure, a few people may shift to a PvMP inclusive play style if Turbine give that part of the game a little love; but there's no way to be sure that they would; or that it would be enough.

    To be honest, at this stage in the game PvMP development is a massive risk. A lot of people - myself included - are here because there is no PvP requirement no matter how you dress it up. That number has grown as LOTRO has settled into its own little niche.

    I honestly wouldn't mind if we had an update that included an epic story and a revamp for you guys - so long as it didn't force me to participate. I can amuse myself. Don't raid or anything, so won't miss that. I could level an alt, work on the deeds, take a break.

    But I'm just one person. How many people do you think will moan and complain because their playstyle isn't being catered to?

    Case in point: the PvMP focus player is an admittedly vocal minority on the forum, and without trying to be rude most threads about any form of content or update quickly include at least one cry of 'you don't care for us!'.

    That's with 10% of the population.

    Imagine if it was 90% without content that update.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for that post, very interesting and does seem to tally with my impressions across the servers I play on creep and freepside, although I agree we do remain sadly uninformed on a Turbine-factual basis.

    I think the interesting and not easily-extrapolated factor in these statistics - or even the Turbine ones were we to have them - is/would be how fused PvmP really is to some of us, within the context of whole (ie incl. PvE) game which I think is relevant bearing in mind Sapience's comment the other day about monster players being, if you like, the subminority within the [pvmp] minority, if I understood it as such correctly. What I mean is, using my own example, I started playing the "main" game when it began. By 2009 I had restarted the game on a new PC and for some reason Codemaster's never really sorted out, I had to proceed with a new account rather than reactivating the old one. I have played a great deal since 2007 in the main PvE game, with the odd gap here and there, completed all content as it was released, with and without my kin (which itself was one of the first on its server and remains to this day), bought all expansions, stayed VIP throughout, and decided in May last year to resurrect the old Blackarrow I had toyed with for a week or so back in 2009- and which I had abandoned back then due to being completely incredulous that getting some skills off took a 15-20s induction! Ahh, the days when that was the design and not the lag.

    Well, wow, this monster play was actually really fun! Yes of course with continued play I could see the material differences in development allotted to the creep classes compared to the bells and whistles of the "main" game, I accepted that, but, it still felt like Tolkien's world, but best of all, I was competing against classes I knew quite a bit about, knew their skills, knew their limits, knew the path they had had to take to get to cap and the instances they had all probably faced- because I had all the available classes at cap. Also best of all, i could play classes I had fought against in the main game for so long. How interesting it was. Sincerely. And since May 2012 I play every single day on all the creep classes and rarely the (now) 15 or so main game classes across various servers that have seen me through all the years mentioned.

    What I am trying to say is this: there may be a hard and fast statistic that would "currently" stratify me into a nice neat package of "creep only", but that statistic would not take account of all the above, of how I "came-over" to PvmP as a natural consequence of the endgame of the main game, nor of how I view the whole game, my experience in it, the people I have referred to it nor my money expended on it. As a customer, I do not wish my desire to see more Turbine development put into - and dialogue about - the Ettenmoors part of the game, and particularly current poor state of monster play to be merely categorised as the view of someone speaking from within the subminority of a minority. I am a LOTRO player and have been for a long time. The OP is quite right that there is a stupendous amount of potential in LOTRO PvmP for both sides (players and Turbine) and the consistent lore concept has already proven itself successful. Of course resources put in will always reflect bald numbers, I accept that. I may or may not return to more consistent PvE play, and I may or may not resume my subscription but regardless of that, I still would hope that what players have been asking for in terms of more candid dialogue about the EM part of the game and what to expect regarding Turbine's current and impending development plans for it will still have hit home. For the game's sake and not for what any given player may be categorised as statistically doing from one month - or year - to the next.

    I don't play a game called "The Ettenmoors". I play a game called "The Lord Of The Rings Online."
    Last edited by Mournsigh; May 10 2013 at 08:36 AM.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Elithandir View Post
    I honestly wouldn't mind if we had an update that included an epic story and a revamp for you guys - so long as it didn't force me to participate. I can amuse myself. Don't raid or anything, so won't miss that. I could level an alt, work on the deeds, take a break.

    But I'm just one person. How many people do you think will moan and complain because their playstyle isn't being catered to?

    Case in point: the PvMP focus player is an admittedly vocal minority on the forum, and without trying to be rude most threads about any form of content or update quickly include at least one cry of 'you don't care for us!'.

    That's with 10% of the population.

    Imagine if it was 90% without content that update.
    Thanks for your open-mindedness should Turbine develop content that was 'moors only. Good to see from someone who doesn't PvMP.

    However, the fact is that even if only about 10% of the game population participate in the 'moors on a fairly regular basis, we get far less than 10% of Turbine's developmental resources put our way. Obviously many of that 10% are going to PvE freepside and will need expansions, new quest packs etc to keep them coming back to the game, but I would suggest that the PvMP section of this game gets no more than 1% of developers time allocated to it.

    In other words, the 10% of the population that enjoy and participate in the 'moors are effectively helping to support the development of content that appeals to the other 90%.

    I have said it before, but a lack of new or good content etc for the PvMP and raiding populations is leading to many of those to either abandon the game completely or - as I have done - drop VIP status and now play premium w/o spending any money on the game (I was VIP when Codemasters was running the game in Europe and continued VIP for a while after the migration). If this trend continues then Turbines revenues will slowly decline and there will be less resources available to be spent on new content for EVERYONE.
    Last edited by SongSinger; May 10 2013 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Correction of spelling errors

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SongSinger View Post
    However, the fact is that even if only about 10% of the game population perticipate in the 'moors on a fairly regular basis, we get far less than 10% of Turbine's developmental resources put our way. ObviouLYs many of that 10% are going to PvE freepside and will need expansions, new quest packs etc to keep them coming back to the game, but I would suggest that the PvMP section of this game gets no more than 1% of developers time allocated to it.
    I think the available numbers show that around 10% of the players tries PvMP at some point, but that only around 1-3% of the players sticks with PvMP / plays it regularly. I would welcome a Turbine rep to confirm these percentages, but I can understand Turbine considers the number of accounts as "company secret", and will therefore not disclose them. With the available numbers we have from public websites, I can understand from a business point of view that it poses risks to invest in this part of the game.

    However, One can ask whether those PvMPers spend more money ingame than average. My guess is "yes". I'd welcome a Turbine rep to confirm or deny my guess with numbers, but then again, I think revenues are also considered "company secret", so I do not expect anyone to confirm this.

    Second, Turbine could easily double or triple the number of active PvMPers. For a lot of us, it is a way to spend our time when we reach level cap and we do not want to run PvE content or roleplay all of the time. Alternatively, there might be a group of players that plays LOTRO just for the sake of PvP. I guess they are a minority.

    As for myself, LOTRO was my first MMO. I always thought PvMP was nothing for me, but after one year of LOTRO and being at level cap with my freep toon, I decided to give it a go. And you know what? It was a mighty load of fun, and it is still one of the reasons I'm playing this game after 5 years. I guess there are many others who fit in this category, and therefore care for the state of PvMP.

    I see PvMP as a means for Turbine to keep people in the game and to earn money. Why not make freepside PvMP payed access with a monthly fee via the store? I see loads of options that are both beneficial for us and for Turbine.
    Last edited by Azshakh; May 10 2013 at 09:36 AM.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Azshakh View Post
    I think the available numbers show that around 10% of the players tries PvMP at some point, but that only around 1-3% of the players sticks with PvMP / plays it regularly.
    It is certainly a lot more than 1-3% that plays in the 'moors on a regular basis on Eldar server, perhaps even over 10%, especially since U10 gave a boost to freeps... But I appreciate that this will not be the case on all servers.

    Eldar is a server that has seen virtually no new players in a long time and almost everyone has at least one character at level cap. This means nearly everyone needs something to do at level cap to keep them logging back in. Levelling yet another alt is not a lot of people's preferrred option.

    Over the past few weeks we have seen a lot of new characters coming into the 'moors on Eldar, some will obviously be alts, but for others it will be a first experience. Due to the dynamic nature of the 'moors and not knowing exactly what to expect when you first log in there, every day can be a unique experience and some insightful and inspirational development on Turbine's part could give people a more unique and interesting experience in place of running the same boring, scripted PvE content again and again and again, helping to keep the LotRO experience from becoming stale. Instead Turbine decide to allocate scant PvMP resource allocation into changing how some deeds in the 'moors work :/

  7. #7
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    I'm surprised as many people play it as do. It's a dying breed of imbalanced chaos.

  8. #8
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    I installed pvmp+ about a month into U10.

    I have 315 unique freep names on my KB list.
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  9. #9
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    I've posted about this elsewhere so I won't fully rehash it here. The sites listed provide numbers without context. Which renders them interesting, but inaccurate. Usually very inaccurate.

    Revise your estimate down.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    I installed pvmp+ about a month into U10.
    I have 315 unique freep names on my KB list.
    That is accurate, since there are about 170 freeps and 200 creeps logging in Elendilmir on a daily basis. There are between 125-600 players playing on individual servers. There are 28 servers.
    This is in line with my estimation of having 10-15% regular PVMP players of the at least 50,000 that ever PvMPed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Revise your estimate down.
    You mean the 50,000 that ever tried PvMP or the 5,000-7,500 that are actively playing?
    Last edited by Azshakh; May 10 2013 at 01:42 PM.
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  11. #11
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azshakh View Post
    You mean the 50,000 that ever tried PvMP or the 5,000-7,500 that are actively playing?
    I was referring to the estimated percentage.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    I was referring to the estimated percentage.
    I was already wondering whether the 475,000 unique accounts listed in LOTROaltfinder would be accurate. I already expected that number to be higher. Well good to know I'm in the right range with my estimate of the absolute number of PvMPers.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azshakh View Post
    I was already wondering whether the 475,000 unique accounts listed in LOTROaltfinder would be accurate. I already expected that number to be higher. Well good to know I'm in the right range with my estimate of the absolute number of PvMPers.
    The total number of unique accounts is one thing. Active accounts is another.

    Altfinder doesnt to my knowledge go trolling down kinship lists for more characters and data to populate itself with. That means that the only accounts its aware of are ones players have exposed. Odds are that these are characters people have actually interacted with in-game since the site was launched.
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  14. #14
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azshakh View Post
    I was already wondering whether the 475,000 unique accounts listed in LOTROaltfinder would be accurate. I already expected that number to be higher. Well good to know I'm in the right range with my estimate of the absolute number of PvMPers.
    Let me try this again. if you are basing your numbers off that site, which is wrong, your numbers will be just as wrong. If you think in terms of single digit percentages of the whole you'll be much closer.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Let me try this again. if you are basing your numbers off that site, which is wrong, your numbers will be just as wrong. If you think in terms of single digit percentages of the whole you'll be much closer.
    You could tell us what the figure is and it would be accurate.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Let me try this again. if you are basing your numbers off that site, which is wrong, your numbers will be just as wrong. If you think in terms of single digit percentages of the whole you'll be much closer.
    More out of curiosity than anything else, can you give us the "statistically average" player?
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Let me try this again. if you are basing your numbers off that site, which is wrong, your numbers will be just as wrong. If you think in terms of single digit percentages of the whole you'll be much closer.
    Rather than tease players with a series of posts of "getting warmer, getting colder" why not just provide some concrete numbers?

    Since Turbine seems to know these numbers, and since these generalizations have been used by Turbine as justification in recent discussions, it seems like it would be helpful for PvMP participants to know exactly how small a minority they are.

    Does "single digit percentages" mean 1% or 9%? Statistically, that's almost an entire order of magnitude in difference. And single digit percentages of what, exactly?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    I've posted about this elsewhere so I won't fully rehash it here. The sites listed provide numbers without context. Which renders them interesting, but inaccurate. Usually very inaccurate.

    Revise your estimate down.
    Just because players are using the numbers to make statements about things that the data doesn't necessarily relate to, doesn't make the numbers themselves inaccurate. For example, using Dailystats to get a rough idea of the number of players earning reknown in a day is valid. It's information exported by lotros existing API. Using HDRO gives us loginTicket ID trends over time, as reported by the login-servers themselves. The problem comes when players try to combine disparate data sources such as Alt-finder and DailyStats. Alt-finder has always been a 'as exposed only', for accounts, and thus it doesn't tell you anything about what percentage of players are <anything> or how many players are or have been pvmping.

    If we wanted that info we'd have to take all 8000-10000 characters. Run it for each of them (or compare by hand), and determine how many accounts there are pvmping in the period.

    To say nothing of Turbine likely doesn't care about 'login numbers' in the same way players do. They value concurrency, perhaps and unique-account-logins, neither of which are exposed to players, while players can only see the counters rise and get an idea if the rate they're rising it as is significantly greater or less than the last period of measurement, and only with a large set of data to work with can they make statements about anything like 'what world players were likely to have logged into this week if they logged into any world at all'.

    It would be nice to get past the 'Invalid data' premise, and have meaningful discussions about the impact and the kinds of things that can be done when we're honestly aware of what portion of the player base it is, so they can make reasoned input accordingly.
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  19. #19
    Half as many as might be if it was better developed >.<
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  20. #20
    You know what? Turbine doesn't really have to keep putting new development into PvMP. I'm happier if they don't. Besides, whenever they touch it, they've shown a history since Moria of messing things up.

    All Turbine needs to do to keep me, and many others like me, is to bring back the SOA book 15 mechanics. Just rewind it. Fine, keep the silly outposts, but make the delving worth going to for freeps again. Dump the audacity. Just put in raid-worthy armor as rewards for going into the delving. It doesn't have to be the best armor, just a notch below the PvE raid armor, like it was in SOA. It was just Barney-purple Helegrod clone armor back then, with Rift gear being better. Freeps will be very happy with that one change. If the armor is worthwhile, they'll flood the moors and begin flipping keeps again. The creeps will be happy defending their keeps and running into the delving to flush out the freeps.

    The only other development effort I ask for is that the devs actually bother to thoughtfully test for balance before each update. Testing with under-geared freeps against decked out rank 15 creeps doesn't count as thoughtful testing.

    That's all I want, right there. The good old days. It doesn't take that much development effort, not nearly 10%. They don't need to give me a new zone. Maybe I've just slowly gone mad from running through the same zone day after day, but I gave up on a new zone a long time ago.

    Just make the moors fun and worthwhile for everyone.

    And for crying out loud, get the creep skills out of the store. It makes ranking pointless! Just have us pay for small perks, like speed boosts or armor boosts.

    Oh, and allow non-VIP freeps to play in the moors. Perhaps they can pay once to unlock a character, similar to creeps. It would really help more casual freeps to come back and play (including my own freep toon), thereby keeping the moors populated and interesting.

    But I've probably typed this for nothing. Again. It's not the first time I and many other players have suggested these things. It seems all Turbine knows how to do is mess up the beautiful thing they once had. All our suggestions fall on deaf ears.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Let me try this again. if you are basing your numbers off that site, which is wrong, your numbers will be just as wrong. If you think in terms of single digit percentages of the whole you'll be much closer.
    Question: why are Turbine scared to publish figures?

    I KNOW you're not required to, unlike Blizzard who have to post their numbers due to financial regulations, bur if your numbers are so great then why the secrecy?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar View Post
    Question: why are Turbine scared to publish figures? ...
    Because it has no benefit to game and company, unless you´re looking for investors. Fear doesnt factor in.

    I´d love to have me some statistics, dont get me wrong. But if they publish detailed numbers, you´ll only get a variety of responses ranging from "So LotrO IS dying, bbl8" to "That much revenue, why dont you finally improve XXX, greedy sons of mothers". Not to speak of what some competitors might be able to do with it. There are very few benefits to publishing business figures, and every single company that has to do it hates it with a passion. Lastly, every MMO will invariable be pegged against the WoW figures, and thats a game noone can win yet.

    Now, we can think of several things Turbine COULD publish without showing their cards too much. I.e., total number of accounts created. Percentage of created accounts that actually keep playing the game over level 50-65-85 whatever. Popularity figures of instances.

    Trouble is, these things would be without a frame of reference. As such, they would satisfy my uncontrolled hunger for statistics, yet have very little real value. It would be worktime lost on publishing numbers that have no actual meaning. As always, I´d rather have the budget invested into fixing the darned game than blown on irrelevant things.
    Last edited by Vandervahn; May 12 2013 at 05:57 AM.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandervahn View Post
    Because it has no benefit to game and company
    Neither has this "minority reporting" or typing in more smoke and mirrors, and yet we see it around again and again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandervahn View Post
    But if they publish detailed numbers, you´ll only get a variety of responses ranging from "So LotrO IS dying, bbl8" to "That much revenue, why dont you finally improve XXX, greedy sons of mothers".
    <.< >.> Well, then what would really change? Except that we would at least have an opportunity to complain using real figures instead of guessing. This is all serious business after all ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandervahn View Post
    Not to speak of what some competitors might be able to do with it.
    The question is, what is the scariest thing LOTRO's competitors could do with it? Create another LOTR MMO? Can they even do it, in the age of handling IP with words like "exclusive" mentioned on every page? Draw a subset of players away with superior PvP, complex group content and meaningful, multi-threaded character development? Um... I had an impression some were already doing that. Learn that eg. 99,2354% of players do something, like follow Epics, and then create story - driven landscape to steal LOTRO customers? With cinematics and full voice acting perhaps? I know there are some numbers that are better left buried, especially direct values related to subscriptions or general fluctuations of activity - but it's hard to say the same about certain percentages for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandervahn View Post
    Now, we can think of several things Turbine COULD publish without showing their cards too much. I.e., total number of accounts created. Percentage of created accounts that actually keep playing the game over level 50-65-85 whatever. Popularity figures of instances.

    Trouble is, these things would be without a frame of reference. As such, they would satisfy my uncontrolled hunger for statistics, yet have very little real value. It would be worktime lost on publishing numbers that have no actual meaning. As always, I´d rather have the budget invested into fixing the darned game than blown on irrelevant things.
    If they already have those numbers, the amount of work required to read reports and summaries they probably already created for their own benefit, to select the kind of numbers that could be understandable and meaningful for Joe Forumite and finally - to click Ctrl+V a lot is not what I'd call budget-threatening. Then again, correcting three consecutive Hytbold/t1 farmfests before release apparently was, so I freely admit how dramatically wrong I can be.

    Regarding meaning itself - I agree there is zero value in publishing "2431 people completed entire Fornost at least once since its release". But things like percentages or trends or (...) are another matter. But... they also can give to Player X more solid impression whether there is REALLY a chance for changes Player X is hoping for. So if stringing such players along regardless is Turbine's MO, then publishing such data would be counter-intuitive. Dev Twitters gave some direct answers for PvMP (at least as direct as "new PvMP map" was for RoI), but there are many, many other areas.

    Imagine they show something similar to "Instance Y being run more often than every other instance put together for 12 months straight" - and people ask "Wait, so it's not just my impression, your balancing of reward, challenge and time is horrible and yet you are not fixing it?". And then "unreasonable" demands follow, this time supported by their own statistics... crazy indeed.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwiley View Post
    Half as many as might be if it was better developed >.<
    Well.. yea. Its never going to be better developed though. People need to accept that. I certainly have.



    As for the number of ppl pvmping in relation to all players active in the game, id say 5% tops...
    Ridduk R14 WL
    Brandywine

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    1,647
    You'll never get a straight answer regarding active accounts, not that it even matters...
    Sapience is hinting at LotRO having upwards of 4.75KK players/accounts? No way. Maybe that's how many accounts have ever been created in the 6+ years the game has been live, but it speaks nothing to the quality, activity or longevity of this game.

    A healthy MMO with a bright outlook does not pull the kind of &&&& we have going on and coming soon.
    Even 475K active (daily) players, I would wager, is a healthy exaggeration. In the global MMO community, this game barely registers. That's not a number, but it's sure as hell an indicator. No one talks about LotRO outside this forum, the old Codies forum and Turbine's historical pocket e-zines.
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