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  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by TheStormKing View Post
    This is exactly the same mechanic I posted here, a couple days ago...
    No. No, actually it wasn't.

    Plagiarism isn't very becoming of a Council Member.

    Nice try, though, Sparky.

  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    There are two sides to the issue of helping out new creeps and I think you astutely touch on both. On the one you are quite right, it is not much fun to poke your toe out of Grams and ... BAM! You are dead. That is not exactly a great start, nor is it conducive to persuading people to stick around.

    On the other hand I would not like to see a situation that 'artificially' boosts brand new creeps up the level of more veteran players who have taken their punches to get where they are, so to speak.

    I do think there is room for a middle ground though. I do not think it is unreasonable to say that new creeps could do with a bit more help than they have at the moment, at least in the sense of allowing them to see some meaningful gameplay before they are mown down. The rest would be up to them to improve upon i.e. corruptions, skills, rank, experience, etc as the rest of us have done.

    I think the trick is to find that middle path; give new creeps enough help that they can play a meaningful role without taking away the need for them to learn and grow on their own.
    I think a way they could help with this is make fights last longer. a fight should never end in 10 seconds no matter what. For instance if a noob reaver comes out to see a hunter and starts fighting. Most fights would end with in 10 seconds and the hunter with full health and noob reaver with no health. But what would happen if the reaver saw the hunter and started fighting and died. But the fight took 30seconds and the hunter had half of its health. The noob reaver would think oh hey look I actually killed him a bit, I can do this then they keep trying and with every new rank/aud they get alittle bit more health down. But heres the problem with that...winning or losing should not be based on your rank/class. Thats the hard part because then if somebody saw freep with op class/1 more rank above they would just be like oh well forget it ill just run. weird idea would be make it so theres only 1 class maybe reaver and rank ment nothing so if freeps wanted pvp they join ettenmoors and they get turned into freep side reaver maybe like an npc look. that way skill is deciding factor. I know it wouldn't work but kind of something like that. Then another thing is healing. Healing should be the winning or losing element of fights. But a r8 reaver comes on r7 guard and r3 rk. The reaver starts hitting guard while guard attacks reaver and rk healz guard. The reaver should be able to out dps the rks heals BUT the healing should give time for guard to kill reaver first. Thats what i think RvR should be like....at the end everybody dies or a few survive. It should kind of be a long version of i roll before you roll and healing should slow the apposing sides roll enough for there side to roll first. For instance a RvR come on each other and freeps have 1 rk and 1 mini. if the creeps focus fire alot of freeps should die but all of creeps should die...dps should be able to how do the heals but the heals should slow down the dps allowing there healed target to kill first. Like pretty much healing should slow down the damage so there side can kill before they get killed. it should be a ROLL/roll so each side should have losses and healing slows down the losses as much as possible so hopefully that side can roll before there losses are to great. Get my drift kind of or idk how to explain this lol but any thoughts? just ideas that might help.
    Sorry for grammar/spelling
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  3. #78

    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Some nice ideas in here.

    Too bad Turbine aren't in the business of taking suggestions.
    And let me guess you have no fun ever cuz your so negative? haha kidding but no really stop bitc%ing and being so negative lol
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  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    The OP is exactly why sometimes I think its best the community is not taken into consideration when the devs seek to balance PVP.
    Okay, let’s all listen to your excellent, unbiased, commentary.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    All this is is a list of creep buffs that don't take into consideration at all what it will do to overall balance. And then it's lauded by the "community team" because its a well written wishlist.
    So do you accept that balance is bad now? If so how else other than OP's and others suggestions would you fix it?


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    1) Population - Creeps outnumber freeps because of F2P. So the only way to fix this issue is to allow freeps to f2p pvp. Of course that a) won't fix the issue at all as creeps will just be the outnumbered side and b) create all kinds of performance issues because the server can't handle the population as it is.

    A 30 minute lock out will do nothing.
    This might well be true but I recall things were better when there was a lock. Nothing like having a bunch of people log off one side only to swap to the winning side.... One less thing for people to complain about at the very least.

    I personally liked the lock because it encouraged people to Freep and Creep on a different server. Much less agro that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    The only way to manage the population is to disincentivise it from gathering in one spot. Maps, tagging, that sort of stuff lends to zergs. Remove those things and you spread out the fighting so overall populations don't matter as much.
    Even without maps people will still seek safety in numbers and I'm 100% sure that it will never change.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    2) Creep damage vs Freep damage. The problem with this issue is that all classes are different. If you increase creep damage then yes you'll be able to maybe kill that minstrel that is bothering you so much. But you will be absolutely crushing hunters and burgs and LM's and those classes without the benefits that some of the other classes have. You're also built to take alot of damage. So if you increase your damage you have to become squishier. Do you want that? Because you already know you cannot just increase your damage and keep your survivability the same... You had that when RoR launched and it didn't improve the moors one iota.


    3) Monster heals vs freep heals. If freeps are healing too much or creeps are healing too little, then you have to bring both factions in line with one another: Either you nerf WL's and Defilers to the survivability of Minstrels or buff Minstrels to the survivability of WL's and Defilers. You don't give what is essentially a guardian the healing capability of a fully spec'd and geared out minstrel. Sorry, no.
    You're completely missing the point when it comes to damage and healing. One Freep healer can out heal the DPS of several Creeps. One Creep healer can't even out heal one Freep DPS. This has to be addressed one way or another because as it stands your more "sturdy" Creep still dies while the "squishy" Freep doesn't.

    At a glance it almost looks like your argument makes sense, however, you’re omitting quite a few things Freeps have to make up for this squishiness you claim they suffer from.

    Freeps can heal while being focused due to skills allowing no induction setback.

    Freeps have In Harms Way, All Fates Entwined and Shield wall on a non-healing tank class.

    Freeps can self-bubble and have 3 classes that can bubble others.

    Every Freeps class has at least one "Oh &&&&" skill to call on, most have more than one and some have many more.

    A Freep can also chose to build for good survivability or Good DPS and hot swap between setups mid combat. A Creep has far less customisation available and they certainly can't go from one extreme to the other with out visiting Grams.

    You are being way too simplistic in your assessment of what will happen if Creep HPS and DPS was buffed. At the very least both sides healing should be as effective as the others in terms of keeping someone alive when they are focused.... Nerf Freeps or Buff Creeps I don’t care which but to suggest that Freeps are squishy, while choosing to ignore what I've highlighted above, sounds like someone clinging to an outdated notion of PvMP. Freeps are far from squishy heals or no heals.

    Furthermore the justification you give for not buffing Creep HPS or DPS sounds like a 1v1 scenario,“you'll be able to maybe kill that minstrel that is bothering you”. The issue with One Minstrel (or RK) out healing one creeps DPS in a 1v1 isn’t the problem. The problem is they can do it at the same time as out putting quite impressive DPS. Make them choose DPS or HPS or make Defilers a tactical single target destroyer...You know because to do otherwise would be unfair.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    4) CC. Same thing here. If you don't like the imbalance in CC then you have to adjust survivablity as you slide the scale. If you are going to decrease CC capabilities, then you have to increase survivablity. If you are going to increase CC immunity, then you decrease survivablity.
    Sorry no.

    The side with the most CC is also the side with the best skills for avoiding CC. If you don’t see the problem here....well.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    In every case you mentioned all you did was adjust things so creeps, who already have the numbers and the abilities to very quickly bring those numbers to bear, can more easily kill freeps. You didn't talk of balance at all, as far as I could see. Only buffs for creeps.
    "More easily kill Freeps" when you say it like that and it sounds like a bad thing. How about find it just as hard (or easy I don't care) to kill Freeps? Because, you know, that's what balance is.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    And the farmer and the Turbine employee thought them good suggestions. /sigh.
    Good suggestions are good suggestions. Adding a qualification according to who agrees is stupid.
    Last edited by ksjock; May 13 2013 at 02:49 AM.
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  5. #80
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    On the subject of NPCs I was reminded the other day just how inconsequential they can be. A warden and a captain kiting all the OC NPCs around quite happily whilst healing themselves and repeatedly killing creeps. The question that came to mind was why those NPCs were even there since they were not really doing anything other than providing the warden with a means to heal himself. It isn't just creep NPCs that are ineffective, I have seen creeps stomping through EC to kill freeps with scant regard for the NPCs there.

    My point here is that if there are going to be NPCs present in PvMP then they should at least be able to have an impact rather than be, at best, speed bumps. If EC/OC are to be places of (relative) safety then the NPCs should be able to put up more than token resistance. Otherwise they are basically just part of the scenery rather than a tactical consideration.

  6. #81
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    On the subject of Orc Camp and Elf Camp... The general design of these new camps (post-RoR) are great, and I appreciate the work that went into them, and applaud the entrance to DoF in the back. All improvements. But still, the new oc and ec are not widely liked...

    The consensus I hear is of the opinion that the old oc and ec are preferred to the new ones - at least in location. 'I' preferred the platform/battlements of the old ones from which one could deal ranged damage, and actually hold watch over - survey - the surrounding area (this ability should be available to any fortification), but the new camps stifle your view.

    What's more, they are just a zerg-trap atm. They are almost impossible to defend against even vaguely superior numbers. The NPC's are useless. It doesn't help that there are 'obstructions' located in the centre of each camp, like a tent, or a bonfire, which block Line of Sight, proving especially annoying to healers. All that is another issue though, I just long to see the camps where they were originally located.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheStormKing View Post
    <much snippage>
    How did you miss that from my thread? It's straight from the thread I started.
    I didn't miss it. The main thrust of your proposal was to make the entire Moors combat experience linear. The Inf/Ren vs Buff trade off was simply a feature of that experience. Including it as an afterthought doesn't make it "exactly what you were proposing."
    Hobbits . . .
    Now them's good eatin'!

  8. #83
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    I had a lovely post but it was eaten by the forum snake so you get this totally different post instead.

    In addition to sprucing up the OC/EC camps (tougher NPCs, use of battlements, etc), I'd love to see a little more utility added. Vendors would be nice, maybe just the basic pot/food vendors but including the comm pot traders would be good too. It might serve to draw more people to those places, spread the fight out a bit, feed hunting groups. Died because I ran out of stun pots? Rez at TR, run down to OC to repot, I'm back in the fight. Better for greenies too, who have difficulty getting to that side when their few maps are down.
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  9. #84
    Nice to see some Devs actually looking into suggestions on the forums for the improvement of the moors. Great job Op for starting a thread to discuss the issue of balance in PvP.

    My thoughts on the current state of PvP.


    Freep Damage Vs Creep Damage/ Mitigation Differences.

    It is pretty clear to see that as of U10 and now U11 since it brought no changes to creepside, the balance in the ettenmoors is severely off. We can talk all day long about opinion on how it is unbalanced but numbers don't lie, so rather than state in a lengthy explanation why I know freeps to be Much more stronger than creeps I will post some numbers from my combat log.

    Pandabear scored a hit with Default Melee Attack on Bace for 56 Fire damage to Morale.

    Bace scored a hit with a melee attack on Pandabear for 381 Belariand damage to Morale.

    This is a Light Armour Non Melee Class hitting a Heavy Armour Melee class 6 Times harder with a Default attack. Now I'm not a low ranking creep, I am a rank 13 Reaver With Full audacity using Armour and Resist Pots from Comms. This is also not just a one time occurrence, this is what My combat log looks like vs pretty much all freep classes, heavy or light. Default melee attacks hit for 30-100 and skill attacks will hit for 100-400 as a Reaver, meanwhile minis will be hitting me with default melee attacks for 200-800 on crits and skill attacks for 1k-6k. Freeps are clearly Mitigating far more Dmg than creeps are able to and hitting with much higher numbers on a consistent basis.

    Freep Buffs and Debuffs Vs Creep Buffs and Debuffs:

    This is another area that contributes to the imbalance in Damage. Lore-Masters can Debuff all Melee classes on creepside Damage by 30%, and all ranged Damage by 50%, that is a huge cut in DPS and creeps have nothing to compete with this. Freeps can run around Debuffing creeps damage but creeps don't really have access to any debuffs to greatly affect Freep DPS. This leads to even more disparity between the damage on sides. Freeps also have access to several more debuffs, ranging from tactical Damage modifiers to BPE modifiers. Freeps also have several more Buffs available across every class in comparison to what creeps have for buffs. Freeps have several different morale buffs/ Mitigation buffs that creeps do not have.

    Freep Morale Vs Creep Morale:

    In my opinion there really is not much difference in morale across the sides. Where it might appear that creeps have higher morale pools they are set morale pools. Freeps have bubbles and self heals on top of having 10k + morale which equates out to around 20k+ for some classes, ex. champions with all their morale bubbles have to be given around 50-70k points of dmg to morale in a 1v1 to be taken down, which is basically the same as them having a morale pool around 50k. Pretty much every single freep class has some sort of morale bubble or dmg reduction bubble. Creeps have access to one Bubble from Wls, and one Dmg substitution from Defilers vs Every class of freep having a morale bubble/dmg reduction bubble.

    Freep CC vs Creep CC:

    Another Area where freeps have the creeps outgunned. Every single Freep class has some form of CC, whether it is a root, stun, mez, daze or knockdown, they all have at least one or two. Creeps have 2 main classes for CC, which can easily be negated by a Lore-masters Stun immunity, which is something creeps do not have access too.

    Freep Heals vs Creep Heals:

    Freeps have 5 classes that can heal multiple people vs creeps haveing 2 classes that can heal. Nothing more really needs to be said, again numbers are pretty clear .

    What can be done?:

    I feel the solution can actually be attained rather easy through a mechanic that is and has been in place for years in the game but as far as I can see has not really been utilized. When freeps enter into the ettenmoors an icon appears underneath their morale bar, The tool-tip says something like this. Monster Play, While in monster play some of your skills may be altered or barred from use. This in my opinion is the answer to the PvMP balance issues. This mechanic would allow freeps to continue to keep the same updates to skills / buffs to their classes that they need for the PvE, and also make it so they would not have to work on buffing creeps dmg/mits/skills too much. How? By doing what the tool-tip says. Have freeps skills affected when they come into the moors to balance things out. A few examples of how this can work. Lore-masters can debuff creeps DPS by 30% for Melee and 50% for ranged, creeps do not have anything that compares to this, so either disable this skill from being used in the moors so that Lms can't come out and just shift the balance of DPS without creeps being able to do anything about it, or severely reduce the amounts, down to around 5%. Captains Last Stand, another skill that creeps do not have anything to compare too, this skill should be barred from use in the ettenmoors, and any buff/debuff that creeps do not have some sort of equivalent for to balance things out, should be altered or barred from use in the ettenmoors so that creeps and freeps have comparable buffs and debuffs. Also Freepside DPS and healing could be affected upon entrance of the moors to balance things out. This would put things in a single location for balance instead of trying to juggle buffing and nerfing two different sides. It allows the devs to focus on the Freep buffs for PvE while not having to overhaul creeps every single time major updates to freeps are released. Bottom line Freeps/Creeps need to have Comparable Buffs, Debuffs, Dmg, Mitigations, CC, and self heals. No side should have access to something the other does not if they are going to be balanced. This game has amazing potential for PvP, if you Devs could balance things out for the players I think you will find your player base will rise exponentially.
    Last edited by TurinDreadHelm; May 14 2013 at 03:04 PM.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurinDreadHelm View Post
    Nice to see some Devs actually looking into suggestions on the forums for the improvement of the moors. Great job Op for starting a thread to discuss the issue of balance in PvP.

    My thoughts on the current state of PvP.


    Freep Damage Vs Creep Damage/ Mitigation Differences.

    It is pretty clear to see that as of U10 and now U11 since it brought no changes to creepside, the balance in the ettenmoors is severely off. We can talk all day long about opinion on how it is unbalanced but numbers don't lie, so rather than state in a lengthy explanation why I know freeps to be Much more stronger than creeps I will post some numbers from my combat log.

    Pandabear scored a hit with Default Melee Attack on Bace for 56 Fire damage to Morale.

    Bace scored a hit with a melee attack on Pandabear for 381 Belariand damage to Morale.

    This is a Light Armour Non Melee Class hitting a Heavy Armour Melee class 6 Times harder with a Default attack. Now I'm not a low ranking creep, I am a rank 13 Reaver With Full audacity using Armour and Resist Pots from Comms. This is also not just a one time occurrence, this is what My combat log looks like vs pretty much all freep classes, heavy or light. Default melee attacks hit for 30-100 and skill attacks will hit for 100-400 as a Reaver, meanwhile minis will be hitting me with default melee attacks for 200-800 on crits and skill attacks for 1k-6k. Freeps are clearly Mitigating far more Dmg than creeps are able to and hitting with much higher numbers on a consistent basis.

    Freep Buffs and Debuffs Vs Creep Buffs and Debuffs:

    This is another area that contributes to the imbalance in Damage. Lore-Masters can Debuff all Melee classes on creepside Damage by 30%, and all ranged Damage by 50%, that is a huge cut in DPS and creeps have nothing to compete with this. Freeps can run around Debuffing creeps damage but creeps don't really have access to any debuffs to greatly affect Freep DPS. This leads to even more disparity between the damage on sides. Freeps also have access to several more debuffs, ranging from tactical Damage modifiers to BPE modifiers. Freeps also have several more Buffs available across every class in comparison to what creeps have for buffs. Freeps have several different morale buffs/ Mitigation buffs that creeps do not have.

    Freep Morale Vs Creep Morale:

    In my opinion there really is not much difference in morale across the sides. Where it might appear that creeps have higher morale pools they are set morale pools. Freeps have bubbles and self heals on top of having 10k + morale which equates out to around 20k+ for some classes, ex. champions with all their morale bubbles have to be given around 50-70k points of dmg to morale in a 1v1 to be taken down, which is basically the same as them having a morale pool around 50k. Pretty much every single freep class has some sort of morale bubble or dmg reduction bubble. Creeps have access to one Bubble from Wls, and one Dmg substitution from Defilers vs Every class of freep having a morale bubble/dmg reduction bubble.

    Freep CC vs Creep CC:

    Another Area where freeps have the creeps outgunned. Every single Freep class has some form of CC, whether it is a root, stun, mez, daze or knockdown, they all have at least one or two. Creeps have 2 main classes for CC, which can easily be negated by a Lore-masters Stun immunity, which is something creeps do not have access too.

    Freep Heals vs Creep Heals:

    Freeps have 5 classes that can heal multiple people vs creeps haveing 2 classes that can heal. Nothing more really needs to be said, again numbers are pretty clear .

    What can be done?:

    I feel the solution can actually be attained rather easy through a mechanic that is and has been in place for years in the game but as far as I can see has not really been utilized. When freeps enter into the ettenmoors an icon appears underneath their morale bar, The tool-tip says something like this. Monster Play, While in monster play some of your skills may be altered or barred from use. This in my opinion is the answer to the PvMP balance issues. This mechanic would allow freeps to continue to keep the same updates to skills / buffs to their classes that they need for the PvE, and also make it so they would not have to work on buffing creeps dmg/mits/skills too much. How? By doing what the tool-tip says. Have freeps skills affected when they come into the moors to balance things out. A few examples of how this can work. Lore-masters can debuff creeps DPS by 30% for Melee and 50% for ranged, creeps do not have anything that compares to this, so either disable this skill from being used in the moors so that Lms can't come out and just shift the balance of DPS without creeps being able to do anything about it, or severely reduce the amounts, down to around 5%. Captains Last Stand, another skill that creeps do not have anything to compare too, this skill should be barred from use in the ettenmoors, and any buff/debuff that creeps do not have some sort of equivalent for to balance things out, should be altered or barred from use in the ettenmoors so that creeps and freeps have comparable buffs and debuffs. Also Freepside DPS and healing could be affected upon entrance of the moors to balance things out. This would put things in a single location for balance instead of trying to juggle buffing and nerfing two different sides. It allows the devs to focus on the Freep buffs for PvE while not having to overhaul creeps every single time major updates to freeps are released. Bottom line Freeps/Creeps need to have Comparable Buffs, Debuffs, Dmg, Mitigations, CC, and self heals. No side should have access to something the other does not if they are going to be balanced. This game has amazing potential for PvP, if you Devs could balance things out for the players I think you will find your player base will rise exponentially.

    You are correct. One of the issues however(which might be a small one) is the fact that when you start limiting skills of freeps, inadvertently you can sway the "balance" by numbers. This would be the freeps, that are miffed about the fact that their hard earned skills are now worth nothing in the moors. So what do they do? 1. They stop coming out, or 2. they swap to creepside where their skills are not removed or debuffed.

    I agree that the tools available for freepside heavily out weigh creepside, which plays a part in the balance factor. And there are SOME things that need to be limited by using the MP buff. However, if we used that tool to balance and equal out the entire faction, you would be talking about debuffs/cc/heals/DPS/range/Li's/ and so on...The freeps would be in an uproar(and rightfully so).

    I think the better option is to work from creepside over. There are good points in here on how to do it. A lot of hits right around the head on the nail. Just have to find the sweet spot.

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  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    You are correct. One of the issues however(which might be a small one) is the fact that when you start limiting skills of freeps, inadvertently you can sway the "balance" by numbers. This would be the freeps, that are miffed about the fact that their hard earned skills are now worth nothing in the moors. So what do they do? 1. They stop coming out, or 2. they swap to creepside where their skills are not removed or debuffed.

    I agree that the tools available for freepside heavily out weigh creepside, which plays a part in the balance factor. And there are SOME things that need to be limited by using the MP buff. However, if we used that tool to balance and equal out the entire faction, you would be talking about debuffs/cc/heals/DPS/range/Li's/ and so on...The freeps would be in an uproar(and rightfully so).

    I think the better option is to work from creepside over. There are good points in here on how to do it. A lot of hits right around the head on the nail. Just have to find the sweet spot.
    I see your point, however freeps get in an uproar every time they overhaul creepside and give us new skills/buffs as well so its a catch 22, no matter what happens to creeps freeps get upset if they can't 3v1 and win anymore. My point was they have already tried the whole raising DPS and Mits/giving us new skills that was U9, then Freeps complained because creeps were a little more on par with them and U10 was the result of that complaining and we all know how that is going , and U11 has not done anything for creeps and left things completely unbalanced, I was suggesting maybe an alternative to the whole creepside Raise DPS Mits and give us new skills again. Freeps have access to 3 times the amount of skills that creep classes have I don't think it would be all that bad if they had some of the more Overpowered ones that are responsible for tipping the scales of balance changed in the moors. Waterlore for example, is spammable and stack-able, this skill has made Lore-masters in the Ettenmoors pretty much overpowered due to the fact it heals for so much and they can stack up to 3 instances of the skill on themselves or others, something simple to help balance the skill in the moors would be, remove the ability to stack multiple instances of the skill on a single toon, Lore-masters would retain the ability to constantly keep Waterlore on but only one instance instead of 2 or 3, see where I am going with this? You can more easily balance out what is already there much faster than doing a complete overhaul which would take much more work and time to get out there.
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  12. #87

    *pokes his head in and hopes it doesn't stir the hornets

    One of the problems is player attitude; it is one of the major problems.

    No code will adjust the deplorable attitudes on display in the form of corpse jumping, trolling, glff/ooc/f2p account raging, pot stirring, forum flaming, saying one thing and doing another and 99 other problems associated with how players choose to behave. Yes I speak to player choice b/c it's exactly that a choice to act like a jerk b/c of the Internet anonymity granted to people.


    Yes you're competing out there in a fight; however, you can choose to win/lose with grace or display arrogance/contempt for others when you win or be a sore loser.
    Last edited by voalkrynn2; May 14 2013 at 04:47 PM.
    A vote for Sapience is a vote for progress? A 4th fix to get Draigoch to "dragon up" that still doesn't fix the persistent bug in the raid is not how I define progress.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurinDreadHelm View Post
    I see your point, however freeps get in an uproar every time they overhaul creepside and give us new skills/buffs as well so its a catch 22, no matter what happens to creeps freeps get upset if they can't 3v1 and win anymore. My point was they have already tried the whole raising DPS and Mits/giving us new skills that was U9, then Freeps complained because creeps were a little more on par with them and U10 was the result of that complaining and we all know how that is going , and U11 has not done anything for creeps and left things completely unbalanced, I was suggesting maybe an alternative to the whole creepside Raise DPS Mits and give us new skills again. Freeps have access to 3 times the amount of skills that creep classes have I don't think it would be all that bad if they had some of the more Overpowered ones that are responsible for tipping the scales of balance changed in the moors. Waterlore for example, is spammable and stack-able, this skill has made Lore-masters in the Ettenmoors pretty much overpowered due to the fact it heals for so much and they can stack up to 3 instances of the skill on themselves or others, something simple to help balance the skill in the moors would be, remove the ability to stack multiple instances of the skill on a single toon, Lore-masters would retain the ability to constantly keep Waterlore on but only one instance instead of 2 or 3, see where I am going with this? You can more easily balance out what is already there much faster than doing a complete overhaul which would take much more work and time to get out there.
    catch 22 big time I was just thinking on the grounds of what can work besides taking the nerf hammer into high gear(which is essentially what it is)

    It is a tough spot. Do you nerf freeps, buff creeps, I tend to lean towards your side. Buffing creeps doesn't always work. Creeps are build very basic. Think of them as neanderthals. They DPS, they heal, they cc a little, and they have basic tools. And they are fighting modern age soldiers. DPS, Heals, debuffs, removals, bubbles(I know creeps have 2 but freeps have many more), and they have utility.

    So how do you balance out basic vs complex? Very difficult. Do you bring the complex down to basic? Or do you bring the basic to more complex?

    I would really enjoy seeing creep overhauls. Well beyond needed. But that would require a good amount of resources that I don't think Turbine has.

    One good thing for Turbine to do would be to add a slight change to creep classes per update. being that there are only 6 classes, doing 1 or pushing it to 2 would be do-able in my opinion, but I don't know.

    perhaps disabling some skills or lowering their capabilities a bit would be the way it has to go for now. be interested to hear some freep only feedback regarding skills being altered for balance in the moors only.

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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    I would really enjoy seeing creep overhauls. Well beyond needed. But that would require a good amount of resources that I don't think Turbine has.
    I think the real issue isn't so much a creep overhaul as much as it is keeping creeps contemporary with freeps. Of course I would love to see a creep class revamp, but beyond that I would love to see creeps maintained alongside freeps so that we can move away from the inevitable 'flavour of the month' cycle that we have had over the years. Each class should be viable in its own right, freep or creep, without just a handful of classes being the obvious best choice at any given point.

  15. #90
    I think one big balance issue that I'm not sure is being talked about is the difference in making "Tough Choices" between freep and creep.

    On creep, a number of corruptions are based on the mentality that you gain one thing, but must sacrifice another thing. I.e. You gain morale, but lose power/damage. If you contrast that to freepside, with the change to having one very important stat and other lesser important ones, it's much easier to get the stats you want and really not sacrifice anything.

    I am slightly optimistic that some of this will change with the new trait trees. Trait trees by nature force you to make choices. I hope they make it such that you DO have to make some tough choices. I understand gear will always sway things, but nonetheless....

    I'm not really sure there is much to be done about this from a creep point of view except I can make one suggestion.

    -------------

    Give creeps one, maybe two additional corruption slots to work with. I look at a lot of my creeps, such as my warg, and think "gee...this wouldn't be so bad if I had 2 more slots to add some morale to this build." Just an idea. I'm not a math expert and couldn't tell you how much this would swing things, but I do think it might actually be an idea worth considering.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo07 View Post
    Give creeps one, maybe two additional corruption slots to work with. I look at a lot of my creeps, such as my warg, and think "gee...this wouldn't be so bad if I had 2 more slots to add some morale to this build." Just an idea. I'm not a math expert and couldn't tell you how much this would swing things, but I do think it might actually be an idea worth considering.
    I can see why this would be attractive. However, I do not think that it would address the real issue, which is that creeps lack meaningful depth. At the moment a creep of a given class stands a high chance of sharing a very similar, if not exactly the same, build as another creep of that class. Adding more trait slots would certainly increase power levels, but it would not help to offer meaningful choice.

    Compare this with how freeps build their toons. They have a much wider range of options, from traits & virtues to armour to jewellery to legendary weapons. I do not think creeps will see that sort of depth, but even adding a fraction of it to creep classes would result in a much greater variety of builds. Building in that variety would, I think, help to make creep classes more adaptable to change, just as freep classes can.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    I think the real issue isn't so much a creep overhaul as much as it is keeping creeps contemporary with freeps. Of course I would love to see a creep class revamp, but beyond that I would love to see creeps maintained alongside freeps so that we can move away from the inevitable 'flavour of the month' cycle that we have had over the years. Each class should be viable in its own right, freep or creep, without just a handful of classes being the obvious best choice at any given point.
    Very true. The two play hand in hand in some ways, however. it is difficult to build depth with creep classes without rebuilding them in some way. Maybe not a full overhaul, but there needs to be more complexity than there is now. Right now it is still the HfP, DfP, masteries, crit. basic class/race traits(many that are in their useless stages).

    Even building out trait trees on the creep end could do a lot (if done right, or carefully). Along with some of the other ideas in this thread.

    But again, it comes to resources, and willingness to spend the time on it. That is the part we don't know if Tbine is willing to jump on yet.

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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    Very true. The two play hand in hand in some ways, however. it is difficult to build depth with creep classes without rebuilding them in some way. Maybe not a full overhaul, but there needs to be more complexity than there is now. Right now it is still the HfP, DfP, masteries, crit. basic class/race traits(many that are in their useless stages).

    Even building out trait trees on the creep end could do a lot (if done right, or carefully). Along with some of the other ideas in this thread.

    But again, it comes to resources, and willingness to spend the time on it. That is the part we don't know if Tbine is willing to jump on yet.
    I'd love to see traitline trees for creeps. But that is a LOT of resources.

    I think you could get a lot of bang for the developer time just buffing the useless class traits, scaling our defenses better (and more often as new content comes out which increases incoming dmg for us), and reducing the heals of our opposition with the monsterplay buff (Giving creeps the damage to compete with freep healing the way they can compete with ours would be terrible for combat pacing... just terrible).

    As for added complexity? Spiders are solid. BAs are solid. Reavers are solid. Warleaders need minor quality of life fixes (make commanders stance viable even when being attacked by melee freeps), wargs and defilers are the two classes that need looking at. Orion's overhaul of wargs has not aged well and they need some mechanics changes (mostly to flayer stance mechanics... ie brute bonuses), and defilers just need help. That's really not a super huge time investment. The biggest time soak i could see in all of that is some sort of resource system for defilers.

    There is an issue with useless class traits (for spiders they are: steel weave web, regeneration, improved clinging web, improved feast, and improved latent poison). I could fix those in like 5 minutes... (Steelweave web: +2 seconds immunity to breaking on damage for our webs, Regeneration: +x% incoming healing and +x% increase to class heals, Improved feast: gain 5 venom pips on use, Improved clinging webs: Your web based debuffs can no longer be cured, improved latent poison: Decrease the cooldown to 45 seconds... now all spider class traits made useful).

    The warleader quality of life stuff? Even easier... Commander's Stance changes: Crack the Whip can be inducted on the run while in commanders stance, and has its cooldown removed. Heal crits activate power of fear. Solved.

    This isn't difficult stuff, it's more of an accumulation of minor things, as I would say 50% of the class traits across creepside are bad to terrible. The spider regeneration trait is 120 ICMR for crying out loud, it hasn't scaled at all since level 60. A lot of problems are basically that we have mechanics and traits that were designed 6 years ago that with few exceptions have not been scaled or brought up to date in all of that time.


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  19. #94
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    Should rename to "Constructive Criticism - State of Creeps."

    Ya'll realize of course that whenever you're buffed, the gameplay in the moors doesn't improve, rather, it gets worse. So why do you keep on asking for it? It just gets reversed in the immediately following update from the one that buffed you. I feel bad for the full time creeps who have been playing them for years but any changes affecting them also affects the ezmode flipper trash who will ruin the moors as they FOTM over to creepside.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    Should rename to "Constructive Criticism - State of Creeps."

    Ya'll realize of course that whenever you're buffed, the gameplay in the moors doesn't improve, rather, it gets worse. So why do you keep on asking for it?
    Let's say you're right and buffing creeps up to freep levels is bad for PvMP. What -would- you change to make it better and/or entice more people to play?

  21. #96
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    I haven't read the whole thread, but a lot of insight here, and it's nice to see there isn't any of the "waa, they are so OP" comments but more real, usable suggestions.

    Okay, here's mine... and this should be an easy algorithm to implement given the current mechanics in the game.

    Remove the buffs awarded for outpost flips, instead the system can do an hourly evaluation of creep vs freep numbers present (it already happens, we can see the outnumbered buff when numbers are drastically different from side to side), and have mastery shift on a percentage basis from side to side based on real numbers of creeps and freeps in the moors.

    This won't fix the disparity between classes but it will be a start towards leveling the playing field.
    Irin r8 Hunter // Arngar r8 Burg // Akthuri r15 LM // Vishus r5 Captain // Curad r11 (active) Mini

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyene View Post
    Let's say you're right and buffing creeps up to freep levels is bad for PvMP. What -would- you change to make it better and/or entice more people to play?
    We just went through this with RoR. We did back in Book 7 of Moria and a few other very very brief periods. There are some very fundamental problems with buffing creeps and the first being numbers and how they bring those numbers to bear. Or how quickly they can. When creeps were buffed in RoR where the high ranks were on par with geared freeps, they didn't seek even fights. Creeps still called out freeps on OOC and mapped in on them double the numbers; all too often. Creeps use their "offensive" skills to flee too often. Creeps are built to be uncomplicated to play and that lends itself very quickly into becoming OP when they get buffed.

    So, first I don't want to entice more people to play. The servers can't handle the load now, at least on Ridder and if it can't handle it there, it must be worse of larger servers.

    "Better" is relative. To most PVP'ers "better" means "fun" and "fun" means "I don't die and my enemies do".

    I guess what I would do is:

    • Get rid of Audacity
    • Get rid of LI's
    • Get rid of Crits and Devs damage spikes so crits only open crit chains without doing any additional damage
    • get rid of Diminishing Returns, stun & root pots, brands & insignias
    • Change "Snap" to work like SOP:R
    • Make sure no class is overpowered to another entire class
    • Buff Defiler healing to on par with Mini's, nerf survivability down to light armor levels
    • Remove all AOE rezzes, in and out of combat
    • Create creep AOE class
    • Disable the store from PVMP other than buying classes
    • Remove outposts
    • Remove flag rooms and back doors
    • Bring back hotspots
    • Buff NPCs so the few can hold against the many with their assistance
    • Remove autoflips
    • Change all damage types to physical
    • Put EC and OC back where they were, remove walls
    • Put interruptable inductions on all sprints, disappears, DF's, burrows with recognizable animations
    • Remove maps, buff March to 168% speed
    • Add crafting facilities with increased chance to crit: Forge & table at dwarf camp, farms and oven at HH & library at EC
    • Bring back Delving Stones
    • Remove tapping
    • Put KB deeds back the way they were
    • Remove freep BFP's
    • Remove all renown/infamy buffs from keeps, relics, delving bosses
    • Make rank farming a bannable offense.
    • disable /follow & target forwarding
    • reduce ICPR rates for all classes, both factions
    • buff Keep defenses (arrows, oil)
    • Remove npcs from Stab, Wtab.
    • Remove bridges from candy mtn and Grimwood
    • Start adding to map by working toward Mt. Gram


    That should be enough to start with.
    Last edited by ColorSpecs; May 15 2013 at 01:40 PM.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    We just went through this with RoR. We did back in Book 7 of Moria and a few other very very brief periods. There are some very fundamental problems with buffing creeps and the first being numbers and how they bring those numbers to bear. Or how quickly they can. When creeps were buffed in RoR where the high ranks were on par with geared freeps, they didn't seek even fights. Creeps still called out freeps on OOC and mapped in on them double the numbers; all too often. Creeps use their "offensive" skills to flee too often. Creeps are built to be uncomplicated to play and that lends itself very quickly into becoming OP when they get buffed.

    So, first I don't want to entice more people to play. The servers can't handle the load now, at least on Ridder and if it can't handle it there, it must be worse of larger servers.

    "Better" is relative. To most PVP'ers "better" means "fun" and "fun" means "I don't die and my enemies do".

    I guess what I would do is:

    • Get rid of Audacity
    • Get rid of LI's
    • Get rid of Crits and Devs damage spikes so crits only open crit chains without doing any additional damage
    • get rid of Diminishing Returns, stun & root pots, brands & insignias
    • Change "Snap" to work like SOP:R
    • Make sure no class is overpowered to another entire class
    • Buff Defiler healing to on par with Mini's, nerf survivability down to light armor levels
    • Disable the store from PVMP other than buying classes
    • Remove outposts
    • Remove flag rooms and back doors
    • Bring back hotspots
    • Buff NPCs so the few can hold against the many with their assistance
    • Remove autoflips
    • Change all damage types to physical
    • Put EC and OC back where they were, remove walls
    • Put interruptable inductions on all sprints, disappears, DF's, burrows with recognizable animations
    • Remove maps, buff March to 168% speed
    • Add crafting facilities with increased chance to crit: Forge & table at dwarf camp, farms and oven at HH & library at EC
    • Bring back Delving Stones
    • Remove tapping
    • Put KB deeds back the way they were
    • Remove freep BFP's
    • Remove all renown/infamy buffs from keeps, relics, delving bosses
    • Make rank farming a bannable offense.
    • disable /follow & target forwarding
    • reduce ICPR rates for all classes, both factions
    • buff Keep defenses (arrows, oil)
    • Remove flags from bridges
    • Remove bridges from candy mtn and Grimwood
    • Start adding to map by working toward Mt. Gram


    That should be enough to start with.
    You listed some things which have already been removed... there are no longer any flags on the bridges, for one.

    I wouldn't want to play this game without diminishing returns/pots and even audacity. Waaaaay too much CC. Remember, that back before DR creeps had resist rates like 40-48% against skills which were applying CC. I think most would find combat without DR or pots extremely frustrating to the point of quitting.


    Even my Signature is trolling!

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    You listed some things which have already been removed... there are no longer any flags on the bridges, for one.

    I wouldn't want to play this game without diminishing returns/pots and even audacity. Waaaaay too much CC. Remember, that back before DR creeps had resist rates like 40-48% against skills which were applying CC. I think most would find combat without DR or pots extremely frustrating to the point of quitting.
    What do you mean? You'll have WL's to give you CC immunity. I said change Snap so it worked like SOPR. And fixed, re: bridges. I want nothing on them.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    What do you mean? You'll have WL's to give you CC immunity. I said change Snap so it worked like SOPR. And fixed, re: bridges. I want nothing on them.
    I do not always carry a WL in tow (and you could say the same thing for freeps with LMs).

    I think you're a little behind the ball on what sort of CC skills actually exist right now...

    I have a 10s duration melee ranged fear with a 10 second cooldown. Take DR and audacity away, and I can literally keep a single target standing there unable to do anything forever. Audacity and DR are the only things keeping that in check right now. Same thing for an appropriately traited burg/LM.

    I actually played through the era when that was possible for freeps; I was held in place for over 5 minutes by an LM while he waited for his groupmates to ride across the map to me so everyone could get credit. I do NOT want that sort of frustration reintroduced to the game.


    Even my Signature is trolling!

 

 
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