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  1. #26
    I would like to respond to the following point:

    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo07 View Post
    -Update the Outnumbered Buff. A scaling buff would be great. Small buff for being slightly outnumbered and have the buff increase the more outnumbered you become. Currently i find the buff to be pretty weak when one side has all outposts and all keeps outnumbering the other side heavily. A scaled buff would GREATLY improve the equality of action when one side is heavily outnumbering the other. This also helps prevent any sort of urge to flip. Why flip if you have a buff that equals things out? (I know people who 1vs1 will be opposed to this, but I think, generally, when one side is heavily outnumbering the other they already have the OP buffs and therefore this might actually make 1vs1s in such cases more even...just my opinion).
    As you say, the 1v1 people would be adversely affected by an outnumbered buff of any significance. The outpost situation as it stands does imply imbalance though since a 2 outpost each scenario cannot be guaranteed. To balance it completely the output mastery buffs would have to be removed, but this would make outposts redundant which nobody wants. I'm not sure on a good solution to this, but anyway my main point is as follows:

    The mechanic to allow the losing side to fight back in the Ettenmoors is supposed to be the Troll/Ranger session plays. Quoting the dev diary last year:
    The session plays are meant to allow the losing side the ability to help turn the tide of battle back into their favor. Population imbalance is one way for a battle to become tilted, but so is skill, rank, etc.

    These are no longer unlocked by population imbalance.
    With the outposts and keeps there are 9 points of control. When the opposing side has 7, 8, and 9 points controlled your side unlocks ranger/troll 1, 2 and 3.
    I think that it might be a better idea to improve and incentivise the user of the Troll/Ranger. If there were some way of rewarding inf/renown and/or comms to the character based on the performance of the session play, and no costs associated in starting the session play, I think they would be used a lot more. I don't think this would lead to antics such as letting all the keeps get captured by the enemy so as to bring out the Troll/Ranger for easy inf/renown, since it should still turn out more profitable to capture the keeps to get the bonuses.

    As opposed to buffing all players on the losing side, this method would have the added benefit of not affecting soloers/1v1ers.

    Any thoughts along these lines?

    Dorathin (GRD), Eodynn (CPT), Danulos (WRD), Rehalond (CHN)

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo07 View Post
    Suggestions
    The OP is exactly why sometimes I think its best the community is not taken into consideration when the devs seek to balance PVP.

    All this is is a list of creep buffs that don't take into consideration at all what it will do to overall balance. And then it's lauded by the "community team" because its a well written wishlist.

    Where is the critical thinking on Turbines part in judging this? On the player council's part? The farmer says its great. Oh boy, that just screams legit to me, especially as he pats his kinsman on the back. The truth of it is quite a bit different.

    1) Population - Creeps outnumber freeps because of F2P. So the only way to fix this issue is to allow freeps to f2p pvp. Of course that a) won't fix the issue at all as creeps will just be the outnumbered side and b) create all kinds of performance issues because the server can't handle the population as it is.

    A 30 minute lock out will do nothing.

    The only way to manage the population is to disincentivise it from gathering in one spot. Maps, tagging, that sort of stuff lends to zergs. Remove those things and you spread out the fighting so overall populations don't matter as much.

    2) Creep damage vs Freep damage. The problem with this issue is that all classes are different. If you increase creep damage then yes you'll be able to maybe kill that minstrel that is bothering you so much. But you will be absolutely crushing hunters and burgs and LM's and those classes without the benefits that some of the other classes have. You're also built to take alot of damage. So if you increase your damage you have to become squishier. Do you want that? Because you already know you cannot just increase your damage and keep your survivability the same... You had that when RoR launched and it didn't improve the moors one iota.

    3) Monster heals vs freep heals. If freeps are healing too much or creeps are healing too little, then you have to bring both factions in line with one another: Either you nerf WL's and Defilers to the survivability of Minstrels or buff Minstrels to the survivability of WL's and Defilers. You don't give what is essentially a guardian the healing capability of a fully spec'd and geared out minstrel. Sorry, no.

    4) CC. Same thing here. If you don't like the imbalance in CC then you have to adjust survivablity as you slide the scale. If you are going to decrease CC capabilities, then you have to increase survivablity. If you are going to increase CC immunity, then you decrease survivablity.

    In every case you mentioned all you did was adjust things so creeps, who already have the numbers and the abilities to very quickly bring those numbers to bear, can more easily kill freeps. You didn't talk of balance at all, as far as I could see. Only buffs for creeps.

    And the farmer and the Turbine employee thought them good suggestions. /sigh.

  3. #28
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    an idea on the op/keep buffs , what if the side that owns the more out posts and/or keeps gets a morale buff while the side that owns less gets damage buff. it sort of makes sense if your side owns more of the map that your morale would be up and the other side would be fighting harder to turn the tide.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/20224010000111901/signature.png]Blutarg[/charsig]

  4. #29
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Hey Guys and Gals,


    I just wanted to pop my head in and say there are some great ideas in this thread and we will certainly take everyones points into considerations.

    I can't really promise we can address all the issues here, but these well thought out discussions that don't turn into a shouting match are great for helping us understand what we can do to improve your experience in the Ettenmoors.

    Keep up the great work!

    -Jinjaah

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    The OP is exactly why sometimes I think its best the community is not taken into consideration when the devs seek to balance PVP.

    All this is is a list of creep buffs that don't take into consideration at all what it will do to overall balance. And then it's lauded by the "community team" because its a well written wishlist.
    Factually incorrect. The #1 comment he made was regarding population imbalance - which is patently not a call to buff Creeps.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    Where is the critical thinking on Turbines part in judging this? On the player council's part? The farmer says its great. Oh boy, that just screams legit to me, especially as he pats his kinsman on the back. The truth of it is quite a bit different.
    Won't go into the merits of the player council and its membership.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    1) Population - Creeps outnumber freeps because of F2P. So the only way to fix this issue is to allow freeps to f2p pvp. Of course that a) won't fix the issue at all as creeps will just be the outnumbered side and b) create all kinds of performance issues because the server can't handle the population as it is.

    A 30 minute lock out will do nothing.

    The only way to manage the population is to disincentivise it from gathering in one spot. Maps, tagging, that sort of stuff lends to zergs. Remove those things and you spread out the fighting so overall populations don't matter as much.
    I seem to remember Creepside having a marginal population advantage before the advent of the Free2Play Reaver, which bumped than dropped back. There was a large bump in population Creepside when RoR came out and the horrible imbalance of RoI was somewhat corrected.

    I know from previous threads that you are married to the concept of removing maps because you don't like them, to the extent that you don't see any other possible solutions. Perhaps more important, removing maps won't have the affect you seek - spreading out the fights - as it will just make it more inconvenient for people to get into the big group v group fights they seem to enjoy so much.

    While I agree with you that the 30 minute cool down won't do anything to really help the population situation, the dynamic outnumbered buff will. And it will do it directly without requiring any other alterations, nerfs, "giving to one side" or "taking from one side."

    When you're proposing a solution it's helpful to take into account how it will affect other players and how difficult/costly it will be for the developers to implement. Unlike "remove maps and mounts and make everyone run," most of the work to implement a dynamic outnumbered buff appears to already be in place.

    Others have brought up the issue with the ON buff affecting 1v1, and that can be solved with a localized ON buff - though that would come at the expense of greater development cost and greater performance costs on the server.

    I'm not going to go into the rest of your discussion. It will quickly go further off track
    Hobbits . . .
    Now them's good eatin'!

  6. #31
    Even if at the beginning of an expansion there were PvP items for freeps with audacity for every equippable slot (except LIs), would that be enough to keep players wearing that gear even when much more powerful gear becomes available from PvE at the end of an expansion?

    At what point would freeps perceive a greater benefit from ditching the audacity to equip their PvE gear?

    Or what if freeps got absolutely no benefit from stats on their gear while in the Moors? Each class could be assigned base stats, which could only be improved by virtue and class traits. This would essentially put freeps on equal footing with creeps.

    If Turbine did this, they might not EVER have to rebalance creeps and freeps again. You could leave them all (along with the NPCs) at these level 85 stats forever, for all intents and purposes. Heck, you could even drop them all down to level 50 equivalents, for a dose of nostalgia.

    This would also mean that the vast majority of freep rewards would become useless. Maybe they could be replaced with cosmetics of equal prestige.
    Last edited by Fredelas; May 09 2013 at 11:25 AM.

  7. #32
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    Re: Population shifts - At this time, there is no timer to switch from creepside to freepside. If something like that was going to be implemented, my question would be can the freep be locked out of the Moors for the timer amount, but allowed to get on to PVE freepside? I would hate to think I had to log out of the Moors when I'm playing creepside 45 minutes before my kin raid because there's a 30 minute lock to log onto my freep at all. I would think that would be bad for a lot of folks.

    Re: CC - I really liked the idea I saw somewhere about the purge skill giving a group cc immunity buff of even say 20 seconds. (I understand there used to be a skill similar to that, or maybe it was purge, but it was nerfed a while back.) One of the bigger issues creepside with heals that I see is that our healers can get completely locked down by burgs or other cc classes. In general, while my mini dies a lot in the Moors, it's not because she's locked out of being able to heal. I don't think giving creeps an equivalent of the LM stun protect would be good for balance, but something more than they currently have would be nice.

    Bleeds - as mentioned, freepside can generally remove dots. Creepside can only remove some dots. It would be nice if our wound pots could remove freep given bleeds. As far as I can tell, the only thing creeps can really pot from the freeps are tactical effects (and only one at a time). Bleeding for 90 seconds, stacked, is a little ridiculous, IMO.

    I don't know freepside as well because I play PVP freepside less often. Personally, I would like to see options for audacity be not gear dependent. Or, as another option, I'd like to see choices for audacity on jewelry or weapons that you can get at lower ranks (say R4 or R6) with audacity only stacking to the max that it currently is no matter how much you are actually wearing. (I hope that made sense). Maybe it's harder to work out the balance of things as freeps gear up, but I hate having to change out of my PVE gear when I go to the Moors.

    I imagine some of the difficulty with Turbine implementing anything new in the Moors right now is that none of us know what the class changes from the Helm's Deep expansion are or how they will affect PVP.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo07 View Post
    The population on each side ebbs and flows constantly and this might be the single biggest issue with pvp. Seldom does each side have equal numbers to provide good, even fights. The side with more numbers currently tends to either raid up or mob around the map snatching up all the Outpost buffs and Infamy Buffs (keeps and delving buffs). So not just does the side with numbers get all the buffs more easily, but they then get more points for each kill. This system rewards flipping to the more populated side. I propose two (hopefully) simple changes.

    -Bring back the timer for flipping to 30 minutes. For both sides. If you're in the moors on freep, 30 minutes to creepside and if you're on creep 30 minutes to go into the moors on freepside. This will prevent players from logging on their creep, see an all blue map and switch to freepside to get the easy points with the buffs.

    -Update the Outnumbered Buff. A scaling buff would be great. Small buff for being slightly outnumbered and have the buff increase the more outnumbered you become. Currently i find the buff to be pretty weak when one side has all outposts and all keeps outnumbering the other side heavily. A scaled buff would GREATLY improve the equality of action when one side is heavily outnumbering the other. This also helps prevent any sort of urge to flip. Why flip if you have a buff that equals things out? (I know people who 1vs1 will be opposed to this, but I think, generally, when one side is heavily outnumbering the other they already have the OP buffs and therefore this might actually make 1vs1s in such cases more even...just my opinion).
    The solution to this is to greatly reduce the effect PvE has on PvP, not apply a band aid that ruins 1v1 balance. OP buffs should be something like 1k mastery each (or removed entirely), keeps 5% renown each and DoF buffs 10% each - Nice to have, but nothing that massively affects balance.
    Eraelin | Redemnus

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    At what point would freeps perceive a greater benefit from ditching the audacity to equip their PvE gear?
    RKs currenty do this already as do some other classes.

    My main issues are the distance between freep heaing and creep healing, its a very big gap. As a WL i would prefer to see my healing skills changed and possibly another added but even solo its hard at times.

    On the DPS front i play a WL and i feel the stances could be alot better for creep classes. But i dont want to see buffs to or against healing or dps i would rather see a change in the skill setup and traits we get.

    On a side note i would love to see rank play its role again, even if its minor, like when freeps had to be R9 for there full gear and so forth. Gear swapping should be stopped (PVP gear only allowed in PVP) and PVE gear stopped from use. We already see RKs as i mentioned having zero or next to no audacity.

    My final thought, fix critical hits and devistating hits. We are back to 10k crits on RKs again this update :-(
    Last edited by MessyR; May 09 2013 at 01:08 PM.
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  10. #35
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    +rep to the OP for a well thought out and well written post concerning PvMP. Also kudos to those replying in a like minded manner; it is refreshing to see a reasonable discussion concerning PvMP without the shouting, insults, etc and look what happens because of that reasonable attitude, we get an actual PvMP dev popping in! This is exactly the sort of thread we need more of around here.

    I will post more in this thread myself tomorrow when I have a faster connection (currently using archaic GPRS!). I just wanted to give the OP props for a great post just now.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MessyR View Post
    <snippage of some good stuff>Gear swapping should be stopped (PVP gear only allowed in PVP) and PVE gear stopped from use. <other snippage>(
    While the original post doesn't address this, and it is an ability limited only to Freep side, I've always found it a little disturbing that characters can swap armor in the middle of a fight. While I can see the ability to switch out weapons and jewelry in a matter of seconds (I can live with instant in a game context) being able to swap armor is more than a little unrealistic.

    I would like to see it where you can't swap armor in combat.

    I mean, seriously. A Burg can't even switch stances in combat. Wargs have a 10 second cooldown on theirs. Why can a Heavy class swap out an entire set of plate armor in a single click?
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Hey Guys and Gals,


    I just wanted to pop my head in and say there are some great ideas in this thread and we will certainly take everyones points into considerations.

    I can't really promise we can address all the issues here, but these well thought out discussions that don't turn into a shouting match are great for helping us understand what we can do to improve your experience in the Ettenmoors.

    Keep up the great work!

    -Jinjaah
    Great to see you dropping in Jinjaah - I am right in assuming that you are the dev chiefly responsible for PvMP? And, if that is the case, I wonder if you could let us know why it was thought that the PvMP deed change was a good idea? (especially as it seems not to have gone through any player consultation at any stage and certainly wasn't an issue of great demand) Cheers
    - Taravan, R12 Captain - Tirian, Tanking Guardian - Telperon, Completionist LM -
    - Afranius, R9 WL - Tolobain, R7 Weaver - Vargan, R6 Stalker -

    Ex-Leader of Lost Realm of Imladris - Evernight - Co-Founder of Beauty and the Beasts

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo07 View Post
    1) Monster Population vs Freep Population

    The population on each side ebbs and flows constantly and this might be the single biggest issue with pvp. Seldom does each side have equal numbers to provide good, even fights. The side with more numbers currently tends to either raid up or mob around the map snatching up all the Outpost buffs and Infamy Buffs (keeps and delving buffs). So not just does the side with numbers get all the buffs more easily, but they then get more points for each kill. This system rewards flipping to the more populated side. I propose two (hopefully) simple changes.

    -Bring back the timer for flipping to 30 minutes. For both sides. If you're in the moors on freep, 30 minutes to creepside and if you're on creep 30 minutes to go into the moors on freepside. This will prevent players from logging on their creep, see an all blue map and switch to freepside to get the easy points with the buffs.

    -Update the Outnumbered Buff. A scaling buff would be great. Small buff for being slightly outnumbered and have the buff increase the more outnumbered you become. Currently i find the buff to be pretty weak when one side has all outposts and all keeps outnumbering the other side heavily. A scaled buff would GREATLY improve the equality of action when one side is heavily outnumbering the other. This also helps prevent any sort of urge to flip. Why flip if you have a buff that equals things out? (I know people who 1vs1 will be opposed to this, but I think, generally, when one side is heavily outnumbering the other they already have the OP buffs and therefore this might actually make 1vs1s in such cases more even...just my opinion).
    Population imbalance has always been a problem and truthfully I think it always will be a problem. I think the solution is to design PvP incetnives so that they "work" even when the population is imbalanced. (More on this in my post below)

    - I dont believe bringing back the timer to change sides will help. The ability for players to change sides could actually be used to balance the population problem. Unfortunately, instead of switching from the winning side to help the losing side, players often switch from the losing side to the winning side. The real problem isnt that players can switch sides. The real problem is that the incentive structure in the moors drives them to switch to the winning side.

    - The outnumbered buff is a good idea in theory, but in practice I don't think it will ever be able to balance the various issues in the moors. Its just not a refined enough approach. For example, I have been in the moors with 6 creeps getting trounced by 18+ freeps and noticed that the FREEPS have the outnumbered buff...!!!! (Too many creeps boxing in the delving for loot boxes tricks the out numbered buff, etc..)

    2) Monster Damage vs Freep Damage

    I personally think this is the easiest of the 4 to fix or tweak. Freeps do consistently more damage than freeps. If you don't want to make any drastic changes (i.e. share audacity on all pieces of gear -rings, necklaces etc to force freeps to wear all aud gear in the moors and make that gear cheaper or even free to acquire) then simply buff creep damage. If a loremaster can crit for 10k+ ents then ba's and reavers should be on par.
    You have to keep in mind that a reaver probably has twice the morale of a loremaster. However, I agree that healing/damage balance is a key issue (More on that in my post below)

    3) Monster Healing vs Freep Healing

    Seeing as how I don't play healers consistently out in the moors this one is harder for me to articulate. However, i see that one freep healer can easily keep several freeps alive against high ranked creeps while being focused heavily and a wl/defiler seems to struggle heavily in those same circumstances. Part of me believes that this would be fixed simply by fixing #2 (DPS). Increase Creep dps and freep healing doesn't seem to be so bad. Just my thought.
    I do think that freeps have the upper hand when it comes to healing. However, I think adjusting healing down is a better approach than adjusting dps up. (If you try to fix it by adjusting dps up then classes that cant heal will die in the blink of an eye. We've been there before audacity and it wasnt fun. If you try to fix it by adjusting healing down then fights still take a while to play out but healers wont seem quite so unkillable.)

    4) Monster CC vs Freepside CC

    I think this is pretty close, but I think it's pretty well documented that Freeps have per class more CC than creeps. I think the bigger issue is CC prevention. With Stun Immunity on Lms it takes away a large percentage of creepside CC in many situations. A simple fix is to do one of two things. (1) Give warleaders a new aura that acts just like SI. This would force warleaders to make a choice and wouldn't be balance breaking in any way. (2) Buff Purge. Buff the duration and reduce the CD. Do that and I think most people would be satisfied.
    Agreed. Freep classes generally have more CC options and creeps dont have anything equivalent to LM stun immunity.
    Last edited by Mystarr; May 09 2013 at 03:44 PM.
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  14. #39
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    -Bring back lockout timer
    -Tactical dmg is the biggest problem in current moors. Give creeps a class that deals tactical dmg or a way for us to counter freep tactical dmg.
    -Combine creep corruptions into damage and defence corruptions
    -Creep class traits are badly in need of a revamp and maybe an addition of legendary traits?
    -Freep healers have self bubbles, effect removal skills, and skills to deal with setbacks/interrupts while defilers have a fear and a daze? Without a warleader bubble or a nearby tree/rock said defiler gets smoked while its freepside counterpart can pop a bubble and troll heal through a creep raid.
    -Creeps need more incoming healing debuffs that can't be potted, seems like every freep has them.
    -Warleaders need more group buffs and maybe a defeat response heal.
    -Gear swapping and stance dancing in combat should be disabled for both sides.
    -All clickies and proc items should be disabled in moors.
    Last edited by Dntx09; May 09 2013 at 03:23 PM.
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  15. #40
    MY TWO CENTS WORTH

    I would suggest that there are 3 main issues in the moors. (Rewards, Healing, & Cheating)

    1.) INCENTIVES (REWARDS)
    The current incentives/rewards completely favor the winning side.
    - The winning side can take keeps at will so they get more renown/infamy per kill.
    - The winning side can take outpost at will (so its easier for the to kill the other side and get renown/infamy)

    Why would anyone want to be on the losing side? If your side isn't getting kills then the current incentive structure leads you to do things like:

    - Hug NPCs
    - Hug one shotters
    - Switch to the other side
    - Leave the moors and try again later


    SUGGESTIONS
    Keep bonuses
    - These should be changed to follow risk vs reward. Something more like:
    When your side controls a keep they gain +20% renown/infamy/commendations BUT it enrages the other side and they get a damage bonus (like the current outpost buffs. )

    Now you are getting better rewards (+20%) but you are taking bigger risks (This will hopefully help the loosing side get some kills which gives them a reason to keep playing)

    Auto flips - It is very frustrating when you take a keep and it auto flips in a short period of time. It makes your effort seem wasted. I would argue for removing auto flips or making auto flips turn a keep neutral (instead of giving it to the opposing faction)

    Outpost buffs - These currently give too big a damage boost with no downside. Even if both sides are trying to keep the outpost buffs even (trying to get more balanced fights) its way too easy/common for one person to solo flip an outpost which results in unbalanced fights for everyone out in the moors. I would prefer to see these changed to some sort of local area buff. Maybe give a defensive boost to the side that controls the outpost if they are within a 100m radius of the outpost. This way if a solo player flips an outpost it wouldnt unbalance fights that are happening across the entire map and it might lead to a weaker side trying to move the fight to an outpost so they could benefit from its local defensive boost.


    2.) HEALING
    This is the single biggest problem in the moors.
    - Players get rewards in the moors when enemies die.
    - Healing can lead to... people not dying.
    - If people aren't dying then players aren't getting rewards
    - If players aren't getting rewards they don't want to keep PvPing (They flip sides or leave the moors etc)

    Healing has a HUGE effect on the incentive structure in the moors

    SOLO/SMALL GROUP - In solo play, self healing classes (rks, warden, LMs, minis) can out heal the damage of any single creep. It often takes several ranked creeps to kill a single healer and a small group of healers can be practically un-killable unless you have a raid. This means that experienced players just avoid these fights. ("Oh look... a warden... don't bother")

    LARGER GROUPS - Healing is the single biggest factor in winning group vs group fights. In fact, ITS TOO BIG A FACTOR. If one group has clearly superior healing they can often completely wipe an opposing group with little to no losses. In my, experience if both sides are getting kills then both sides are getting rewards and both sides are happy. If only one side is getting kills then the other side is going to start hugging npcs, or start hugging the one shotters, or lose numbers, or just disband and leave.

    POSSIBLE SUGGESTIONS

    Weaken self healing - This would do wonders to help the balance of 1 v 1 fights. In group fights it would also make it easier to kill the healer, which would then make it easier to kill everyone else, which would then mean both sides are getting more rewards.

    Give both sides more abilities to counter healing - Skills like defiler blight can be used to counter healing and allow a side to get kills even if they are being out healed. However, blight is easily avoided and there arent many skills like this in the game. If both sides could easily counter healing then number imbalance wouldnt be quite as bad. "Hmmm... We have 6 and they have 12... They will wipe us BUT we should be able to get some kills before we die... Its better than doing nothing while we wait for more peeps to login..."

    3.) CHEATING
    This is a an IMPORTANT mind set/culture issue. The tone for this ultimately comes from the gaming company. If players feel that the game creators take cheating seriously then the players tend to take cheating seriously. If the players see that the game creators dont take cheating seriously (Dont enforce rules against cheating or even worse... dont even have rules against cheating... "Its unsportsmanlike") then players dont take cheating seriously. This can lead to a culture where cheating is the norm (farming, multi boxing, running hacks, etc) and you cant compete in PvP unless you cheat. Once your PvP culture gets to that point players tend to stop caring about your pvp or quit playing your pvp. Your PvP community is then just left with the exploiters. Upshot: Its important to crack down on cheating in PvP if you want to have a healthy thriving PvP community

    SUGGESTION - Change the official code of conduct to make farming and multi-boxing IN THE MOORS a violation of the code of conduct. This would help establish that you (turbine) take the integrity of your PvP seriously. (If you dont take it seriously then the players arent going to take it seriously.)
    Last edited by Mystarr; May 28 2013 at 11:52 AM.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertigo07 View Post

    PvP balance in the moors has many factors to consider and the 4 that I consider most important are these.

    1) Monster Population vs Freep Population

    2) Monster Damage vs Freep Damage

    3) Monster Healing vs Freep Healing

    4) Monster CC vs Freep CC


    1) Monster Population vs Freep Population
    Good stuff.
    Question as well.
    Would it be better to look at it from a Monster healing vs Freep Healing
    Or split it into
    --Monster healing vs freep DPS
    -Freep healing vs Monster DPS
    Being that freeps and creeps have different DPS styles (spike vs DoT) healing styles are different. One of the issues is PVE bosses do spike damage, which causes freeps to need the spike heals, when then moves to the moors, their healing goes over the top.
    Just a thought.
    All the rest of these are good baselines to work off of to make pvp better.

    Quote Originally Posted by grapez View Post
    I think there is a problem bringing a lock when logging from creep to freep. Let's say you logged off your freep in moors. If you are on creep and want to log freep to join some pve raid or whatever you will have to wait 30 mins. You might say thats their own fault since they forgot to log out outside em(and you would maybe be right) but I still think this would cause a lot of tickets and complaints from many players.
    "Hey are you coming to the raid mate?"
    "Nah, I logged out my mini at GV again, so you and the others have to wait 30 mins for me, if its ok?"

    Then there would be the oposite problem if you were able to break the 30 mins rule by simply logging out in moors. It would be too easy to exploit.
    When the timer was applied in the past, this was how it was basically. Never heard a whole lot of complaints about it, however people didn’t know of any other way so they just got used it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    Balancing damage and healing is tricky.

    Looking back, creeps have usually had better damage and healing at the beginning of expansions, while freeps have been on top near the end of an expansion cycle.

    Because creeps in general have fewer variables involved, it's probably easiest to balance by changing their damage and healing. That way freeps can be balanced against PvE encounters, and creeps can be balanced against the freeps.

    Your idea of introducing audacity for every equippable slot might make this easier, by more or less standardizing freep damage and healing in the Moors throughout an entire expansion's life. (The remaining variable would be legendary items, which can increase in power dramatically from third age to first age.) Would freeps submit to this sort of standardization for an entire expansion in terms of raw power?

    Otherwise, unless the developers can commit the time to test and rebalance damage and healing with every game update, I don't foresee creeps and freeps ever reaching consistent parity.
    It isn’t always just about buffing creeps damage and healing to match what “might” be on par with freeps. Creeps are designed in a very basic way. Based off of NPCs. They use defense/resist/corruptions.
    Freeps are built especially for mastering those NPCs. So they have many tools at their disposal and are very advanced in the way they can build. They can easily use their traits/armor/skills to work around the basic creep buffs to give themselves the advantage. Such as Armor swaps, legendary items, Skills that have removals, etc. One of the latest was Scribe a New Ending on RKs that can be spammed and remove creep’s debuffs/damage dots.
    Reworking damage/healing for updates is one of the things that needs to be done, but it doesn’t always work. Part of the reason we are in the situation we are in currently.
    Quote Originally Posted by FangtheLucky View Post
    I'm sorry, I only play creepside so I don't understand how the 30 minute flip rule would work for freeps. If a freep goes to gv, sees a red map and decides he doesn't want to pvp, can he just leave gv and go back to playing freepside right away, or would he have to wait 30 minutes?

    Sincerely,
    Lou de Torres
    They just go back to PVE land.
    When the timer was around before, it only applied to logging into a creep. So if you wanted to go from gv to a creep, you had to wait 30m. If you wanted to go from creep to PVE, go for it. Log on over.

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_ox1 View Post
    I agree that a major problem in the Moors is that the majority of the time it seems that one side is completely dominant and controls most of the map/buffs/fighting.

    I would suggest a new system for Keeps and Outposts to replace the current: Keeps give Inf/Ren buffs, with Outposts giving Mastery buffs.


    This new system would be in the mold of Creep Corruptions. Keeps and Outposts would both give buffs to Inf/Ren gains. I would suggest OP's at 10%, LC and Isen 15%, TR/Lugz 20%, and TA 30%. However, along with these buffs, there would be a penalty in the form of Mastery DE-buffs (or Mastery buffs for the opposing side, whichever way the numbers would work better). These buffs/de-buffs would be of similar, but possibly of lower magnitude to the current OP buffs.

    This would lead to the dominating side having to make some choices. "Do we hold the entire map and have our Inf/Ren gain buffed to the max? If so it will be harder to actually get the kills."

    It would also encourage the side that is being dominated. "Sure, we are facing a totally Blue map and a Grams camp, but we have a big Mastery advantage, lets go get some kills."

    I believe that this would help discourage Map domination, and also encourage the weaker side to come out to fight.



    This could also work as a sort of out-numbered buff, but that buff needs to be looked at separately and made smarter and more meaningful regardless.


    While we're at it, can we please get rid of the auto-flip of keeps? At the very least, TR should never go Red, and Lugz should never go Blue.
    Can you go into a bit more detail with this? I like the basic but I don’t follow the whole thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dntx09 View Post
    -Bring back lockout timer
    -Tactical dmg is the biggest problem in current moors. Give creeps a class that deals tactical dmg or a way for us to counter freep tactical dmg.
    -Combine creep corruptions into damage and defence corruptions
    -Creep class traits are badly in need of a revamp and maybe an addition of legendary traits?
    -Freep healers have self bubbles, effect removal skills, and skills to deal with setbacks/interrupts while defilers have a fear and a daze? Without a warleader bubble or a nearby tree/rock said defiler gets smoked while its freepside counterpart can pop a bubble and troll heal through a creep raid.
    -Creeps need more incoming healing debuffs that can't be potted, seems like every freep has them.
    -Warleaders need more group buffs and maybe a defeat response heal.
    -Gear swapping and stance dancing in combat should be disabled for both sides.
    -All clickies and proc items should be disabled in moors.
    It seems creeps need a work over pretty bad. Creeps are still mirrored after SOA, with a lot of franken-fixes. Freeps have been re-worked and are being re-worked again. Tactical damage is pretty nasty, but having a strict tactical creep class would/could be dangerous. Freeps aren’t meant to take that kind of spike damage(hence the reason they don’t have as much morale as creeps..with a couple of exceptions)
    Making a monster RK class would be like setting up a creep tactical nuke silo in the moors. Could be dangerous if not done very very carefully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystarr View Post
    MY TWO CENTS WORTH

    I would suggest that there are 3 main issues in the moors. (Rewards, Healing, & Cheating)

    1.) INCENTIVES (REWARDS)
    The current incentives/rewards completely favor the winning side.
    - The winning side can take keeps at will so they get more renown/infamy per kill.
    - The winning side can take outpost at will (so its easier for the to kill the other side and get renown/infamy)

    Why would anyone want to be on the losing side? If your side isn't getting kills then the current incentive structure leads you to do things like
    - Hug NPCs
    - Hug one shotters
    -Switch to the other side
    - Leave the moors and try again later



    SUGGESTIONS
    Keep bonuses
    - These should be changed to follow risk vs reward. Something like you take a keep and gain +20% renown/infamy/commendations BUT it enrages the other side and they get a damage bonus like the current outpost buffs. Now you are getting better rewards (+20%) but you are taking bigger risks (This will help the loosing side get kills which gives them a reason to keep playing)

    Auto flips - It is very frustrating when you take a keep and it auto flips in a short period of time. It makes your effort seem wasted. I would argue for removing auto flips or making auto flips turn a keep neutral (instead of giving it to the opposing faction)

    Outpost buffs - These currently give too big a damage boost with no downside. Even if both sides are trying to keep the outpost buffs even (tin order to try to get more balanced fights) its way too easy/common for one person to solo flip and outpost which results in unbalanced fights for everyone out in the moors. I would prefer to see these changed to some sort of local area buff. Maybe give a defensive boost to the side that controls the outpost if they are within a 100m radius of the outpost. This way if a solo player flips an outpost it wouldnt unbalance fights that are happening across the entire map and it might lead to a weaker side trying to move the fight to an outpost so they could benefit from its local defensive boost.


    2.) HEALING
    This is the single biggest problem in the moors.
    - Players get rewards in the moors when enemies die.
    - Healing can lead to... people not dying.
    - If people aren't dying then players aren't getting rewards
    - If players aren't getting rewards they don't want to keep PvPing (They flip sides or leave the moors etc)

    Healing has a HUGE effect on the incentive structure in the moors

    SOLO/SMALL GROUP - In solo play, self healing classes (rks, warden, LMs, minis) can out heal the damage of any single creep. It often takes several ranked creeps to kill a single healer and a small group of healers can be practically un-killable unless you have a raid. This means that experienced players just avoid these fights. ("Oh look... a warden... don't bother")

    LARGER GROUPS - Healing is the single biggest factor in winning group vs group fights. In fact, ITS TOO BIG A FACTOR. If one group has clearly superior healing they can often completely wipe an opposing group with little to no losses. In my, experience if both sides are getting kills then both sides are getting rewards and both sides are happy. If only one side is getting kills then the other side is going to start hugging npcs, or start hugging the one shotters, or lose numbers, or just disband and leave.

    POSSIBLE SUGGESTIONS

    Weaken self healing - This would do wonders to help the balance of 1 v 1 fights. In group gihhts it would also make it easier to kill the healker, which would then make it easier to kill everyone else, which would then mean both sides are getting more rewards.

    Give both sides more abilities to counter healing - Skills like defiler blight can be used to counter healing and allow a side to get kills even if they are being out healed. However, blight is easily avoided and there arent many skills like this in the game. If bothy sides could easily counter healing then number imbalance wouldnt be quite as bad. "Hmmm... We have 6 and they have 12... They will wipe us BUT we should be able to get some kills before we die... Its better than doing nothing while we wait for more peeps to login..."

    3.) CHEATING
    This is a an IMPORTANT mind set/culture issue. The tone for this ultimately comes from the gaming company. If players feel that the game creators take cheating seriously then the players tend to take cheating seriously. If the players see that the game creators dont take cheating seriously (Dont enforce rules against cheating or even worse... dont even have rules against cheating... "Its unsportsmanlike") then players dont take cheating seriously. This can lead to a culture where cheating is the norm (farming, multi boxing, running hacks, etc) and you cant compete in PvP unless you cheat. Once your PvP culture gets to that point players tend to stop caring about your pvp or quit playing your pvp. Your PvP community is then just left with the exploiters. Upshot: Its important to crack down on cheating in PvP if you want to have a healthy thriving PvP community
    Yeah the outpost change was a good idea on paper…and I was a supporter of its current implementation. In game, it doesn’t seem to work. It becomes a bunny hop of outpose flipping and unfun play. I would even dare say that the Delving buffs are dull and a pain as well.
    As far as healing, I don’t know if nerfing self healing would help. I think all that would do would be to focus healers more and make like miserable for them. That doesn’t seem to fair for them. Making one class type easier to kill I think would cause them to just not come out. Granted you are right in saying that healing is overly nasty. There should be a better way to solve it.

    Yicky(R13) Weaver - Now Arkenstone{LOTRO Player Council member 3 years}
    The Black Appendage of Sauron - Leader
    Orenia | Shaxell | Ornethia: Misadventurers Kinship - Arkenstone

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    Yeah the outpost change was a good idea on paper…and I was a supporter of its current implementation. In game, it doesn’t seem to work. It becomes a bunny hop of outpose flipping and unfun play. I would even dare say that the Delving buffs are dull and a pain as well.
    Even on paper I thought these were a BAD idea. Hopefully the player council will have a chance to impact ideas early enough in development that we wont need to live through things like all of the outpost flipping etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    As far as healing, I don’t know if nerfing self healing would help. I think all that would do would be to focus healers more and make like miserable for them. That doesn’t seem to fair for them. Making one class type easier to kill I think would cause them to just not come out. Granted you are right in saying that healing is overly nasty. There should be a better way to solve it.
    True. Maybe giving all classes more tools/skills to bypass healing is a better approach. In truth, the only reason healers get singled out is because its very hard to kill ANYTHING unless you kill the healers first. If you could actually get kills in spite of healing then people wouldnt single out the healers.

    That woudl help all types of fights (raid vs raid, small group vs small group, and 1 v 1). Currently in the moors people are willing to do any of these types of fights until you toss too much healing into the mix. THen...

    - No point in soloing a RK, LM, warden, mini (They can out heal your dps so you have no chance to kill them) - RUN HIDE IN NPCS or THE ONE SHOTTERS

    - Small group fights work fine until you toss in a capt, mini, healing rk, defiler. If the other sie has a healer and your side doesnt then there isnt much point in fighting. (You dont have any way to over come the healing) RUN HIDE IN NPCS or THE ONE SHOTTERS

    - Raid vs raid fights work okay unless one side has clearly superior healing. If the healing is unbalanced then suddenly one side is wiping the other side out and taking almost no losses. As soon as the weaker side isnt getting a decent number of kills it becomes... RUN HIDE IN NPCS or THE ONE SHOTTERS

    If you cant get any kills then you don't get any rewards

    If you aren't getting any rewards then you aren't likely to keep fighting.
    Last edited by Mystarr; May 09 2013 at 04:45 PM.
    Merridan - Burglar lvl 105 (Rank 12)
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  18. #43
    This (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...t=#post6779967 ) is exactly the type of thing I was referring to when I talked about setting the "Tone" for your PvMP community. As long as multi-boxing and farming are not against the code of conduct then statements like this are 100% correct. What you allow under the code of conduct sets the tone for your community and indicates how seriously you take the inegrity of your game...
    "Well look at it like this. Until there is a change what I do is a part of the game. So many people voice their opinions against it, but their methods do more harm then it does help their cause. As long as players take that approach you can expect more of the same."
    Last edited by Mystarr; May 09 2013 at 05:06 PM.
    Merridan - Burglar lvl 105 (Rank 12)
    Gormadan - Minstrel lvl 105 (Rank 4) : Traldan - Captain lvl 105 : Celebdan - Weaver (Rank 11)

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    2) Creep damage vs Freep damage. The problem with this issue is that all classes are different. If you increase creep damage then yes you'll be able to maybe kill that minstrel that is bothering you so much. But you will be absolutely crushing hunters and burgs and LM's and those classes without the benefits that some of the other classes have. You're also built to take alot of damage. So if you increase your damage you have to become squishier. Do you want that? Because you already know you cannot just increase your damage and keep your survivability the same... You had that when RoR launched and it didn't improve the moors one iota.
    I would note that this is exactly what happened with Freep Battlefield Promotions - not only increasing damage and KEEPING survivability, but increasing damage and INCREASING survivability. (disclosure - I didn't go out until fairly recently, so I have no idea what life was like pre-RoR and at RoR's launch)

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystarr View Post
    Even on paper I thought these were a BAD idea. Hopefully the player council will have a chance to impact ideas early enough in development that we wont need to live through things like all of the outpost flipping etc.

    True. Maybe giving all classes more tools/skills to bypass healing is a better approach. In truth, the only reason healers get singled out is because its very hard to kill ANYTHING unless you kill the healers first. If you could actually get kills in spite of healing then people wouldnt single out the healers.

    That woudl help all types of fights (raid vs raid, small group vs small group, and 1 v 1). Currently in the moors people are willing to do any of these types of fights until you toss too much healing into the mix. THen...

    - No point in soloing a RK, LM, warden, mini (They can out heal your dps so you have no chance to kill them) - RUN HIDE IN NPCS or THE ONE SHOTTERS

    - Small group fights work fine until you toss in a capt, mini, healing rk, defiler. If the other sie has a healer and your side doesnt then there isnt much point in fighting. (You dont have any way to over come the healing) RUN HIDE IN NPCS or THE ONE SHOTTERS

    - Raid vs raid fights work okay unless one side has clearly superior healing. If the healing is unbalanced then suddenly one side is wiping the other side out and taking almost no losses. As soon as the weaker side isnt getting a decent number of kills it becomes... RUN HIDE IN NPCS or THE ONE SHOTTERS

    If you cant get any kills then you don't get any rewards

    If you aren't getting any rewards then you aren't likely to keep fighting.
    I figured the 10% outpost buffs would allow fighting around the map a bit more. It didn't play off that way. I never claimed to be perfect


    Agreed on healing tho. ran into that last night. 35 vs 17 in favor of freeps. Still came out and won a couple of battles with the groups separated.

    However, when we hit a heal stacked group with 2Rks and a captain. We couldnt even take them down. We got a couple kills, but with rezzes and LM stun dot, and it was my 18 vs their 8-10 maybe. Granted, the creeps had the focus fire of A.D.D. teenagers but still, when we DID focus, the bubbles and healing couldnt penetrate anything. Some would go to full health in 1 heal.

    healing is definitely skewed. as many people know. The trick is how to fix it. Regardless of how it comes out, healers are not going to be happy. But you take their healing capabilities, add buffs, add outposts boosts, you've got no chance on even a medium heal based raid.

    Yicky(R13) Weaver - Now Arkenstone{LOTRO Player Council member 3 years}
    The Black Appendage of Sauron - Leader
    Orenia | Shaxell | Ornethia: Misadventurers Kinship - Arkenstone

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    Good stuff.
    Being that freeps and creeps have different DPS styles (spike vs DoT) healing styles are different. One of the issues is PVE bosses do spike damage, which causes freeps to need the spike heals, when then moves to the moors, their healing goes over the top.
    If you want proof that the players understand the game well and feedback is rarely acted on look no further than this statement. When audacity was introduced, this very problem was raised before it was implemented with players predicting this very issue; one that most pvp'ers would acknowledge as one of the fundamental flaws in pvp i think. Rather than address it, they have time and again further buffed healing classes >.< If audacity was a fixed moors wide buff for each side rather than a passive skill and a healing debuff introduced for each side, this could be effectively controlled.


    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    When the timer was applied in the past, this was how it was basically. Never heard a whole lot of complaints about it, however people didn’t know of any other way so they just got used it.
    The main problem with the lockout is that the game has changed - when f2p came in a lot of people started creeps on second accounts seperate from the lockout system, which makes it a fraction as effective as it used to be. In some ways its almost redundant now, a scaled rank-based audacity changing outnumber debuff is the most effective way of policing number imbalance i think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    It isn’t always just about buffing creeps damage and healing to match what “might” be on par with freeps. Creeps are designed in a very basic way. Based off of NPCs. They use defense/resist/corruptions.
    Freeps are built especially for mastering those NPCs. So they have many tools at their disposal and are very advanced in the way they can build. They can easily use their traits/armor/skills to work around the basic creep buffs to give themselves the advantage. Such as Armor swaps, legendary items, Skills that have removals, etc. One of the latest was Scribe a New Ending on RKs that can be spammed and remove creep’s debuffs/damage dots.
    Reworking damage/healing for updates is one of the things that needs to be done, but it doesn’t always work. Part of the reason we are in the situation we are in currently.
    I agree and your reasons are accurate. Step one, on the pvp map, lock all gear for freeps while in combat. Thats one big factor addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    It seems creeps need a work over pretty bad. Creeps are still mirrored after SOA, with a lot of franken-fixes. Freeps have been re-worked and are being re-worked again. Tactical damage is pretty nasty, but having a strict tactical creep class would/could be dangerous. Freeps aren’t meant to take that kind of spike damage(hence the reason they don’t have as much morale as creeps..with a couple of exceptions)
    Making a monster RK class would be like setting up a creep tactical nuke silo in the moors. Could be dangerous if not done very very carefully.
    I'm against a creep tactical as such, still love to see a dead/wraith type toon though. I'd be in favour of a massive nerf to tactical damage generally, but if healing is addressed then rks and lm's couldn't take a double whammy. One other option is to unsimplify the damage type again. If light damage did less damage for example this would reduce minstrel damage a lot, lm damage a tad and rk damage not at all really. Coupling this with a healing nerf is one way around these issues. I was very sad when they dumbed down damage types generally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    Yeah the outpost change was a good idea on paper…and I was a supporter of its current implementation. In game, it doesn’t seem to work. It becomes a bunny hop of outpose flipping and unfun play. I would even dare say that the Delving buffs are dull and a pain as well.
    As far as healing, I don’t know if nerfing self healing would help. I think all that would do would be to focus healers more and make like miserable for them. That doesn’t seem to fair for them. Making one class type easier to kill I think would cause them to just not come out. Granted you are right in saying that healing is overly nasty. There should be a better way to solve it.
    I also like the sound of it when i heard about it as i thought ooo more potential for smaller scale action. It had the reverse effect, dump the OP buffs urgently.

    Healers have a VIP position on the moors. Healers used to be targeted first and lets take pre-warspech minstrels - were reliant on the the team they healed to survive, bit like defilers. Healers still have to die first, but now they are captain scarlet. I see nothing wrong with making healers easier to bring down, it worked before, everyone still repsected them and they still came to the moors,. The difference was they did not make up 50% of the population with 3 classes.
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  22. #47
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    Another issue I would like to point out that is maybe of less concern to some but is very frustrating is the disparity between creep/freep NPCs. Creep NPCs are practically useless while freep NPCs can stun/disarm lock you, I have been disarmed 3 times in a row several times and even a few times while in dying rage(hilarious to just run around like a chicken with its head cut off btw). Buff creep NPCs by increasing the frequency of troll knock backs or adding disarms so freeps can feel our pain.
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  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    Can you go into a bit more detail with this? I like the basic but I don’t follow the whole thing.
    Basically, if the Freeps own TA, they get a buff to their Renown. However, this gives Creeps a Mastery buff.

    Same for the other keeps and the OP's. Any thing your side owns gives you an Inf/Ren buff, at the expense of buffing the Mastery ratings of the opposition.

    Generally, if one side is in control, they are in control of more/all of the keeps and OPs. This gives them buffs both in terms of gains from kills, and ability to kill. This leads to huge disincentives for the side at the disadvantage to even leave Grams/GV and fight.

    My thought is a system where the side with the upper hand (generally more more numbers/higher ranks) a reason to think about how to fight in the Moors. Rather than just claiming the whole map and being buff to the hilt, they might rather leave some of the map in the hands of the opposition. Sure their would still be huge INF/REN gain from kills, but if the other side has an enormous Mastery advantage over you, those kills will be much more difficult to come by.

    For "losing" side currently, they see the map flipped against them, see the huge INF/REN gain buffs on top of the huge Mastery buffs facing them (never mind being likely comfortably outnumbered) and will likely say, maybe I'll come back tomorrow. With a system like what I propose, if the map is flipped against you, you will hit harder and heal more than your enemy toon for toon, so you will be far more likely to be able to overcome the numbers disadvantage.

    Just some numbers to throw around:

    OPs = 10% INF/REN buff for the side which controls them
    2800 Mastery buff to the opposition

    Keeps = 20% INF/REN buff to the side which controls them
    3400 Mastery buff to the opposition

    TA = 30% INF/REN buff to the side which controls it
    4000 Mastery buff to the opposition

    The maximum possible INF/REN buff from OPs and Keeps would be 150%, up from 100% on live.

    Currently, the maximum possible Mastery buff is 13,600. Using the numbers here, the maximum would be a massive 28,800 Mastery difference, which is probably too much, but regardless, would be a huge disincentive for the "winning" side to flip the entire map, making it more plausible for the "losing" side to fight back. Or, if the "winners" did choose to flip the whole map, the enormous Mastery buff would be a strong incentive for the "losers" to fight back.



    I've been thinking about this basic idea for a while, but am only truly forming it as I write, so hopefully that has making some sort of sense to others.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad_ox1 View Post
    Basically, if the Freeps own TA, they get a buff to their Renown. However, this gives Creeps a Mastery buff.

    Same for the other keeps and the OP's. Any thing your side owns gives you an Inf/Ren buff, at the expense of buffing the Mastery ratings of the opposition.

    Generally, if one side is in control, they are in control of more/all of the keeps and OPs. This gives them buffs both in terms of gains from kills, and ability to kill. This leads to huge disincentives for the side at the disadvantage to even leave Grams/GV and fight.

    My thought is a system where the side with the upper hand (generally more more numbers/higher ranks) a reason to think about how to fight in the Moors. Rather than just claiming the whole map and being buff to the hilt, they might rather leave some of the map in the hands of the opposition. Sure their would still be huge INF/REN gain from kills, but if the other side has an enormous Mastery advantage over you, those kills will be much more difficult to come by.

    For "losing" side currently, they see the map flipped against them, see the huge INF/REN gain buffs on top of the huge Mastery buffs facing them (never mind being likely comfortably outnumbered) and will likely say, maybe I'll come back tomorrow. With a system like what I propose, if the map is flipped against you, you will hit harder and heal more than your enemy toon for toon, so you will be far more likely to be able to overcome the numbers disadvantage.

    Just some numbers to throw around:

    OPs = 10% INF/REN buff for the side which controls them
    2800 Mastery buff to the opposition

    Keeps = 20% INF/REN buff to the side which controls them
    3400 Mastery buff to the opposition

    TA = 30% INF/REN buff to the side which controls it
    4000 Mastery buff to the opposition

    The maximum possible INF/REN buff from OPs and Keeps would be 150%, up from 100% on live.

    Currently, the maximum possible Mastery buff is 13,600. Using the numbers here, the maximum would be a massive 28,800 Mastery difference, which is probably too much, but regardless, would be a huge disincentive for the "winning" side to flip the entire map, making it more plausible for the "losing" side to fight back. Or, if the "winners" did choose to flip the whole map, the enormous Mastery buff would be a strong incentive for the "losers" to fight back.



    I've been thinking about this basic idea for a while, but am only truly forming it as I write, so hopefully that has making some sort of sense to others.

    Hmmm...interesting. So if I am reading it right, it has the potential to focus more on the fighting and less on the keep taking. Due to the fact that, if you own the whole map, you have a lot of renown, but your opponents have all the masteries and hit hard. So you want to try to even it out as much as possible.

    Here is my worry. And it is hypothetical cause I do like the idea. It falls into numbers + objective. What is the current objective for the people in the moors at that current time? Is it a good fight? or points? If you have a group that has heavy numbers. Lets say 30+(which is typical on E prime time right now), vs 20ish, they can still dominate if they want the points due to sheer number volume. That is just a hypothetical situation that I am thinking of. NOW...if your mastery buff you are mentioning is high enough, then it could still work and play a factor. In situations like this, it always comes down to what the players in the moors want. Just like now. When I lead against certain freep leaders, we typically will keep outposts at an even fight. Whether it be 2/2 or 3/1 etc. But some just want the advantage so they take everything, leaving the opposition with nothing and just slaughter them

    I like where the idea is going. It has potential. Just throwing some devil's advocates in there for ya

    Yicky(R13) Weaver - Now Arkenstone{LOTRO Player Council member 3 years}
    The Black Appendage of Sauron - Leader
    Orenia | Shaxell | Ornethia: Misadventurers Kinship - Arkenstone

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dntx09 View Post
    Another issue I would like to point out that is maybe of less concern to some but is very frustrating is the disparity between creep/freep NPCs. Creep NPCs are practically useless while freep NPCs can stun/disarm lock you, I have been disarmed 3 times in a row several times and even a few times while in dying rage(hilarious to just run around like a chicken with its head cut off btw). Buff creep NPCs by increasing the frequency of troll knock backs or adding disarms so freeps can feel our pain.
    IMO, NPCs need to be a fairly useful form of protection. On both sides. And not with annoying CC. random NPCs like the coldfell hunters and what not up around man camp areas by TR should be normal easy solo kills. But keeps/EC/OC/OPs should not be soloable or able to be run off.

    EC/OC NPCs should be able to take down a solo player and reset at the door. These places are for protection. They are a death trap. If you chase a freep into EC...those NPCs should make you regret your decision. Same with OC.

    outposts should not be able to be solo'd by ANYONE. And should require at least a small group of 4-6 with a healer to be able to be taken down. I would even say if the 10% buff stays that they need to have some form of immunity from insta-flip too.

    Keeps - no no no no no The removal of the flag actually makes the keep takes easier. Just due to the fact that NPCs hit like kittens (including the bosses), And once they die, it flips. I can't tell you how many flag fights I have had over the years defending or attacking TR or LUG and saving it after the tyrant resets.

    just some quick thoughts

    Yicky(R13) Weaver - Now Arkenstone{LOTRO Player Council member 3 years}
    The Black Appendage of Sauron - Leader
    Orenia | Shaxell | Ornethia: Misadventurers Kinship - Arkenstone

 

 
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