What is the point of the game? Where all the fun comes from?
A lot of fun somes from the exploration. I guess most of us want to see something new around the corner that we've never seen before. Like new regions, like new enemies, like new spells, like new weapons and like new armor that we can buy, forge, empower, steal (?), win, take from enemy, etc...
Now let's imagine that we have the weapon that we don't want to change because it is just the best weapon that we can get and we only need to empower it using different methods of empowering (forging, scrolls, experience, etc...).
What do we have in the end? For a primary weapon we LOOSE possibility to buy, take it from enemy, find it around the corner, win it or steal it, although we still have possibility to empower it. Most importantly, the thrill is gone. You know from the beginning that your weapon is the best, that you don't have to look high and low for the better weapon. That is something that I don't want. I want to be surprised.
Last edited by evguenil; Jun 13 2013 at 04:21 AM.
the LI would would still need to empower it, get relics, get XP, etc, the only thing that changes is that you don't swift from weapon to a new weapon, its the weapon you started with but you can customize it look so it still looks like a new weapon.
The thrill would still be there as its always growing with you, you would need to explore, kill orcs, find things around the corner JUST NO MORE NEW LI'S.
Don't you hate to see lots of LI's in your loot bag you can't even use or are just there to be deconstructed?
THINGS I LIKE:
I like being able to get an additional layer of customization to my character.
THINGS I DISLIKE:
scrap-and-replace. Even in the Epic Quest chain Volume 2, our dwarf-buddy was astounded that we'd scrapped that lovely LI he'd given us that let us beat back the watcher to gain entrance to Moria. Did Glamdring get ditched? did Sting get replaced? How about Orcrist? LIs exist in the books, but they are truly wonderful things. Narsil was a weapon of the first age that was reforged... we have that element in the game. But Legendary items are LEGENDARY. Narsil's shards were preserved for over 3,000 years before they were reforged into Anduril. They were kept with reverence, waiting for the day that King should return. They were NOT thrown away! Scraping them like so much goblin-trash cheapens the entire concept of a Legendary Item.
Scrap-and-replace, also serves as a dis-incentive to deal with LIs at all as you're leveling. This problem gets WORSE as max-level increases. You get an LI at 50ish and throw it away at 60. Build that one up, throw it away at 65? and again at 75? all the while churning through lesser LIs to get the right legacies to support your play style or buildout? Nah. You outlevel it too fast, so why bother at all?
I have this BEAUTIFUL Filikul Firstager that I'm still using at level 80. It has exactly the legacies I want. Over time I upgraded them to useful tiers. As a mini I'm not terribly concerned with DPS. It sucks that I miss out on the increased potency of the legacies from higher level LIs. But I still use it. Why? Because the 65s and 75 secondagers didn't have the legacies I wanted and wasting shards and TP to make them useful when I'd only throw it away at 85 all over again was exactly that Waste.
But to fix it i think is relatively simple. Ok, your LI is now max level, but why not make it UPGRADEABLE TO THE NEXT TIER? make it a crafting recipe that requires max rep with that tier of the guild, BOA -- just like the crafted guild symbols. Make the recipe require the symbol of the elder king, just like crafting a new one in the first place. But give us a way to make the work we put into our weapon worth while. Keep the customization. Keep the lesser third-age trash that serve as a source of useful legacies. Keep the relics, the shards... These mechanics work well enough. But let the LIs grow with us!
Another thing that is TERRIBLE about the current system is relic-melding.
Turn in 135 Kuzdul tablets into tier 1 relics. you end up with approximately 200 of every tier-1 relic. now meld them into tier2. click, return, click, return, click, return.... SLOW DOWN TOO MANY REQUESTS, SIT AND DO NOTHING FOR 10 seconds. Whew. now I only have 195 of each one. click return, click, return, click return... WHAT A MEANINGLESS CONCEPT.
Solution: Well, when I go to a vendor I can say "buy a stack. Buy a half-a-stack. Buy a single item." Why not... "meld all worthless tier-1 relics into not-quite-as-worthless tier-2 relics" Single button. Let it roll 5,000,000 times on the back end for the results, but do we really need to click through it all? In crafting you can select any number of 1-max, assuming your tools last that long. Why not do the same here? This is a time-suck that serves NO purpose, is NOT fun, and worse, the existing game mechanic FORCES you to take longer.
And since the LI system incorporates so much wasted time and effort, I haven't bothered to try to do multiple LIs to support different play styles. I'm a short hop away from 85 now. I'll probably work in a buff-book and actually maintain 3 LIs. I'm not bothering with the bridle because... eh. It's not necessary. You can kill stuff without it. There're no mounted instances, so the grind on that is just too tedious and meaningless.
Last edited by c-daMaph; Jun 13 2013 at 08:17 PM. Reason: typo
I stopped playing my freeps because I loath the meaningless LI grind.
My main was a captain, and I'd finally gotten 7 weapons I was largely happy with pre-RoR release, and I couldn't bear the idea of redoing all of them plus adding more horse-related LIs.
I'm really happy playing my creeps, although disappointed to hear from Sapience (in a previous post) how little Turbine apparently cares about PvMP creep-only players (based on our being a small percentage of players).
If not for the LI grind, I'd still be playing my captain, and she'd be in the Moors where I'd want to fight organised, dedicated and skillful creeps - without them, I'd have left the game as the constant dumbing down of PvE content made open-landscape freeping far too easy.
Vulfen cpt 100
What I am trying to discuss is the following topic: is it better to stick to one weapon lifetime or is it better to have a possibility to find a better weapon somewhere along the way? I vote for the second option. I should be able to find better weapon as my character progress in levels. I don't want to have a weapon that is going to be improved semi-automatically like my character's morale, power or strength.
Last edited by evguenil; Jun 14 2013 at 05:49 AM.
By the way, since I've just discovered LI system I should say something about it I guess
I find it very interesting, compicated and so far I'm happy with it. I can already see that this system will defenitely keep me quite busy, but I'm not afraid of it
I know for sure that I get the fun when I'm trying to get to the top and not when I'm at the top. I mean, please don't bring me to the highest level, please do not give me the most power weapon or spell. As soon as I get it, that would be the "end of the game". PvP can't keep me long enough in game. It is fun of course, but pure PvP is just not RPG and it is not my type of game. I need exploration and I need character/weapon/armor/etc contant development. Any obstacle that would delay reaching end of the game is welcome! And LI constant reforging I guess will be one of such obstacles and that's quite alright in my opinion . I use "experience disabler" just the same
A lot of people provide their opinion about LI based on the "their great 2-year LOTRO play-time". Of course they are bored to tears with everything in the game. I see few messages from players like me who just discovered LI system. I think that developers should know that there are people out there who are happy with current LI system. Perhaps after half-year my opinion will be different, but usually I don't play any game that long.
But I want to highlight your perspective that you "perhaps after half-year [your] opinion will be different, but usually [you] don't play any game that long." --- if that's the case, you don't need to worry one way or the other. You don't need to worry about destroying what you spent time on, because you're going to move on. And yes, you get the best of the LI system then -- the exploration of some new way to customize your character. And you don't feel the pain of a poorly designed system because you miss the repetitive grind to rebuild what you'd already built.
I vote no. Others have explained it better than I could. It's way too grindy, way too tedious, and to know you're going to decon it anyway in 10 levels or less makes all the work feel like a waste.
Legendary Items is the reason I've stopped alting as much. In Moria I had 5 raid-ready characters. In Mirkwood, I had 4 raid-ready characters. In Isengard I only got 3 characters geared out. Now in Rohan, I have only 2 characters at end-game, and I have not maxxed out their LIs or other gear. It's just too much work that feels wasted when you throw your LI away after 10 levels.
I spend less time in game now that I have fewer characters. But the thought of doing multiple LIs for all my characters every 10 levels is too daunting for me to bring more alts up.
Last edited by Frieja; Jun 17 2013 at 04:43 PM.
MINSTREL and member of the vocal minority
I like the idea of legacies to custom further your play style.
But legendary weapons don't feel legendary at all, because :
1) From Moria on, we find billions of them, in fact much more than normal weapons !
2) We must throw the one we use every few levels...
3) Most of the legendary weapons look ridiculous and ambiance-breaking, especially compared to the more realistic weapons we can get earlier in the game, so yes we greatly need cosmetic slots for weapons and shields. And please don't force these childish glowing effects on us !
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Well, no. I guess I more dislike it than like it.
It's a very simple and expensive system.
It's the definition of "grind", to get a decent weapon.
And well, it's just a boring system.
I said it somewhere else, and i'll go ahead and say it here.
I wish the legendary item system were more like the warsteed system.
A single, permanent weapon (and class item) that you can customize
the name, and look of (through the turbine store, hell yeah i'd pay for
a GOOD looking spear). Something that levels up with you.
The constant "from scratch" business is tiresome.
I'm not even saying this method wouldn't be just as grindy as our current
system. But it'd feel more personal. It'd feel more satisfying, you could
be more attached to your legendary items because they'd stay with
you throughout the levels.
Now my idea for how the legacies would work, how they'd level with you
would be similar to the barter-gear system we have at skirmish camps.
If you wanted a legacy to go from level 75 to 80, you'd need
to have the level 75 legacy, plus the right combination of (example)-sunbrands,
wyrmfires, or whatever type of unique barter item they come up with, plus
the appropriate amount of shards. I imagine it'd require an all new NPC
to stand next to the Forge master and Relic master. Maybe called the...
The only hitch with this is that it sounds like you'd only need to fool
with it for "ratings" legacies. (because as we all know, the higher the level
your weapon is, the higher the ratings get)
But, to get around that, I think it'd
be interesting if the, say, "+10 seconds to xxxx" legacies would
tier down the more you leveled over their current level.
For example, if you had that +10sec legacy, and it was set
as level 75, and you were 85. It would scale down to
+1sec until you upgraded it to level 80. Then, it's max number
would be +5sec. And if you upgraded it to your current level of 85,
it would again be +10sec. Anyone else understand what i'm
getting at here?
The thing with this system is, though, that you'd need to do alot more
instances to get those unique barter-items to upgrade your legacies.
Or, pay alot in the auction house. Also, i'm not sure what this would
mean for Star-Lit Crystals. Perhaps, once you/your weapon leveled up,
they'd simple vanish off your legendaries. Kind of like how, once you
out-level those +25% experience boosting pocket items, they simply
stop working. Well, same for the Star-Lit Crystals, if you want their
benefits after you out-leveled their requirements, you'd need to
take them off your weapon and personally slot/bind the new level's
version. I wouldn't mind if star-lit crystals, in this system, worked like
relics currently do.
I would give anything for an ability to disable that... It's so unnecessary and immersion-breaking.
And also agreed on how bland the look of weapons gets the later you get in-game.
There's so many shields and weapons that look so amazing for low-levels. Makes me mad.
Hope devs revamp the LI system allowing more customization along with it
I like it, although some minor tweeks (read appearance listed my many folks above) would be nice.
The LI system is better than it was originally, but its still a millstone round your neck.
Having to scrap then at each level cap increase & start again.
The constant micromanagement.
No appearance options.
The storage space you need for all the gubbins associated with them.
Being considered "second class" by other players if you don't have the current Age weapon or the right legacies.
The Skirmish Soldier system or Warsteed configuration systems are much better.
Hunter & alts on Snowborne since 2007, now on Evernight.
I'm now doing LI's to suit me (though I did burn some TP's a couple of days ago to extract prior to deconstruction, just to see, and I won't bother with that again). My crafters can make SA (not bothering with FA), but I'm now going to stick with TA unless something falls in my lap (after having made some SA - may do a few level 85's if the stuff is just lying around). T6 relics work fine, and crafters can make crafted. I don't muck about with diminishing returns (and going beyond T6 is worth the effort just how exactly? is a few extra of this and that REALLY going to make your character playable instead of unplayable? - that said, I had vast amounts of T4's and 5's, so I ran some up to T7, not scrapped them yet but thought I'd compare). I can get a TA LI for shards or I can make them. TA are cheap and easy, and do the job.
My biggest bone of contention is IXP.
If I turn in dailies that say 18,000+ IXP, why are my items only getting 4,000+ IXP?
That really sucks.
I can live with the rest of it, because I don't make a rod for my own back and do the stuff that's fun or occupies a quiet half hour instead.
eta: I did burn some TP's getting extra levels for a non-weapon SA, as what's on it is about what I want right now and I haven't leveled anything better up - I have all the LI slots unlocked on one character, and that was a good investment.
Last edited by WychHazel; Jul 03 2013 at 06:28 AM.
I'd rather like to be able to customise ie. the weapons.
One thing though. Elven swords and blades DID glow in the lord of the rings books. We accept so much other magic that it would be kinda weird if numenorean or dwarvish blades didn't have some magic too.
Wouldn't mind an option to turn the glow off for those who so desire though.
personally we should still have the legendary weapons awarded to us in Eregion, unfortunately it doesn't put money in the store.....
I have to ask just what is this 'grind' associated with LI's that people go on about?
I find it an interesting 'side game' that is hardly time intensive unless you want it to be. But then I do like crafting.
I cashed in a few tablets and tool kits yesterday, and now have over 30,000 shards on my level 73 character. I am awash with T6 relics, have a fair few T7's, and even a few T8's (just to see, I won't be bothering with diminishing returns, and will probably use them on an item at level cap). I also had a lot of LIXP items in the process. I also have 4 of the 938,000 IXP items in my vault ready to use, and a fair few lesser ones. I had more yesterday but burned two to get a level 65 weapon and a level 66 weapon to see what level the salvage scrolls came out at, but guess what? I had a LIXP item off each of them.
I burned those two and took two LI's I was levelling up, to almost level 60 (both had acquired XP from dailies prior). One just hit level 60 with todays dailies. I had the scrolls I wanted for my next weapon already in the vault, so used them on the replacement this morning, and with the LIXP item I got off the one I scrapped, it is already level 38, and it will be level 40 this time tomorrow. I'd had a freebie salvage scroll on the daily silver roll, so I used it to get the runes off before salvage (not that I was worried, as I said, I have plenty of T6's which work more than well enough).
I have all the LI slots unlocked, and whatever I am doing, all of them are filled and all of them acquire XP.
At 85, if I burn two of the 938,000 LIXP items on new class and weapon LI's, both of them will be at a more than satisfactory level immediately. I'll already have all the scrolls I want in case I get a bad roll on the legacies. In fact I already have the pre-requisites for them.
Sounds to me like a lot of you are doing nothing but whining in your own self interests, are all too keen to make rods for your own backs (or worse, pretending to be making them), and want Turbine to resolve 'issues' that are rather fictional and are more to do with benefitting you personally rather than the game in general and other players.
Now, since you were asking, I'll try to reiterate what people laid down to be their biggest problem:
Image you had been playing at each respective level cap of:
- Moria, 60 (landscape; Moria cluster instances; raids Watcher, DN, [Turtle])
- Mirkwood and Enedwaith, 65 (landscape; instances + skirmishes + BG cluster and raid + ITA instances; OD raid)
- Dunland/Isengard, 75 (landscape; instances + skirmishes + Draigoch + ToO instances; ToO raid)
- Rohan, 85 (landscape; instances + skaled BG + skirmishes; Erebor raids)
Then you would probably have used the following LIs, acquired via the different activities outlined above:
- 60: 3rd age; then 2nd age; then 1st age.
- 65: 3rd age; then 2nd age; then 1st age.
- 75: 3rd age; then 2nd age; then 1st age.
- 85: 3rd age; then 2nd age; then 1st age.
Now, there you have 12 items that you would have actually used (and therefore customized, outfitted with relics and what-have-you), and that is just for one slot.
Not all classes need to update each slot on each toon (I sure don't, stopped THAT long ago), but let's just say that you do make half of the updates for the class slots, so we make that 18 items per toon.
Now, the problem, in a nutshell, is this:
There would have been little to no difference to the items, except their level and age.
You would have been thrashing those outdated items, only to rebuild them in the - mostly - very same way, for the next level/age.
I ask because I suppose it IS a fun side-game if I only had one character. Especially if I only had one character who had never actually hit the level cap yet. Because at that point you have an abundance of relics, shards, and IXP. You can put as much or as little time into your LIs as you want leveling up. And if you don't hit the current level cap before the next expansion is released, then it doesn't really matter. You will carry on as you have been.
However, this has been MY experience:
Mines of Moria: 5 characters who each needed AT LEAST 2 LIs each. There was no legacy extraction. What your LI ID'd with was what you got. *IDs and tosses literally 100s of LIs looking for those must-have legacies like Healing and Motivation Skills, Threat skills increase, Focus Bow Crit, etc* Carefully and lovingly maxxes out each legacy of each LI for every character. Grinds out top tier relics for all LIs. Finally got my perfect healing LIs for my Minstrel, now have to put together DPS LIs for soloing... Finally got my tanking LIs for my Guardian, now have to work on overpower LIs. Got my Gambler LIs for my burg, now have to make my Quiet Knife set...
Mirkwood comes along with a 5 level increase. What? My LIs don't grow with me? TRASH EVERYTHING AND START FROM SCRATCH. What do you mean I can't use Moria IXP runes with level 61+ LIs?!?!?! Become furious about unexpected LI changes. But continue to grind it out so I can still raid. Only able to get 4 toons instead of 5 raid-ready because it's such a grind. Secondary LI's get dropped for some classes (so long QK burg LIs).
Isengard comes along with a 10 level increase. Really? You want me to do this all again? *takes 9-month break from game because LI hamster wheel is too daunting* TRASH EVERYTHING AND START FROM SCRATCH. Only gets 3 characters casually raid-ready with LI's. Tiers not maxxed. Absolutely NO secondary LIs (minstrels don't ever need to DPS right?)
Rohan comes along with another 10 level increase. *takes 6-month break from game* TRASH EVERYTHING AND START FROM SCRATCH. Really wants to do group content, so gets 2 characters to cap and puts any old LIs in their hands. Purchases a few Scrolls of Delving, Scrolls of Empowerment. Grinds for T9 relics on 1 LI only. The rest will have to be 'good enough'. Decides to participate in a couple different leveling groups with lower-level characters instead of bringing up another 85. The socialization of a group and the great SoA/MoM content is much more fun to me than endlessly grinding LIs that will be thrown away every 10 levels.
Helm's Deep will come along in the fall with another dreaded 10 level increase. I have not decided if I will trash everything again, and put the bare minimum effort into new LIs (absolutely no scrolls of delving, empowerment, or anything. No grinding relics). Or maybe I'll just leave them with their 85 half-assed LIs.
Last edited by Frieja; Jul 05 2013 at 01:51 PM.
MINSTREL and member of the vocal minority
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