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  1. #1
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    What can YOU do encourage the development of more group content?!

    It seems clear to me that the only way we're going to get Turbine to focus more on group-content is to get more people to actually run group content so that their internal numbers go up.

    I'd like to challenge each of you to do the following

    Every session you login, if you're going to be on long enough to run-group content:

    1.Try to participate in at least 1 pug an hour.
    2.When leading, only ask for the minimum requirements. (No demanding R16s for everything to run T1 3/6/12mans!). Give preference to players who have clearly not run before, and put them in key roles where possible. (Build in some backup for safety, such as a 3rd healer or a 2nd tank for flight T1). ASK if anyone's got any questions about the content to send them privately, and answer them publically! =)

    3.During these runs, find 1 thing to compliment a player on for the run, and find one tip you can make either about the instance as a whole (Public) [Leave the NPC for last etc- Include why!], or about the other players performance (privately) [Consider Using <SKILL> there because <reason>.

    4.Accept invitations to run content where you don't need or want any of the gear!

    5.Actively search for players who have an interest in trying harder-content, and do your best to include them in kin-runs or your own T2 Pugs!-

    --
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
    Delego-L85 Hunter ; Stodden-L51-Captain ; Edhul-L61-Loremaster
    Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler

  2. #2
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    My tactic is a little different. (But then, I participate in the fashion you describe regularly.)

    I buy it.

    I won't buy Wildermore.

    Since some folks I play with and I are always grouped, that means four sales of Rohan. None of those four people will be buying Wildermore. (We've purchased previous regions with more group instances and quests in favor of more solo regions too.)
    Link to our community LOTRO store google spreadsheet pricelist and conversion rates, please contribute too!: https://goo.gl/wxPqCm

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    I buy it.

    I won't buy Wildermore.
    With the dearth of content that gets released at updates, and the sheer length of time between updates. Most players eventually acquire all of the content. In light of that, usage numbers are the part that we can still influence.
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
    Delego-L85 Hunter ; Stodden-L51-Captain ; Edhul-L61-Loremaster
    Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler

  4. #4
    I actually see players running more instances and raids now, and a wider variety of them, than at any point since Moria.

    Although I'm one of the people who likes doing mutli-hour winged raids with locks, those aren't the things I see players running.

    If that's what you want, I guess with this strategy you should be running Rift, DN, and ToO every time your locks are up on as many characters as possible.

  5. #5
    I'd like to challenge each of you to do the following

    Every session you login, if you're going to be on long enough to run-group content:
    Crell - thank you for your post...very constructive suggestions in a positive tone.

    Those would be the types of things that would make me want to group with others - very hard when your entire kin are 85's, and your main is only 44 (alts in mid-high 20's).

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    If that's what you want, I guess with this strategy you should be running Rift, DN, and ToO every time your locks are up on as many characters as possible.
    I know at the start of U10, it was the greatest variety of instances I've seen regularly being sought in some time, but that ship seems to have sailed as people acquired enough seals for their characters FAs.

    I think the metrics look at on-level vs over-level as well.

    So, if you want raids this means 'Helegrod, BG, OD, Erebor'.

    Followed by ToO,DN,Rift.

    The real problem is coaxing anyone to try something new/harder (Aka, why dont I just want the shortest path to my <shiny> FA?), even with experienced leaders, who are willing to teach the content.
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
    Delego-L85 Hunter ; Stodden-L51-Captain ; Edhul-L61-Loremaster
    Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    I know at the start of U10, it was the greatest variety of instances I've seen regularly being sought in some time, but that ship seems to have sailed as people acquired enough seals for their characters FAs.

    I think the metrics look at on-level vs over-level as well.

    So, if you want raids this means 'Helegrod, BG, OD, Erebor'.

    Followed by ToO,DN,Rift.

    The real problem is coaxing anyone to try something new/harder (Aka, why dont I just want the shortest path to my <shiny> FA?), even with experienced leaders, who are willing to teach the content.
    I was speaking specifically about multi-hour winged raids with locks. Helegrod, BG, OD, and Erebor are no longer in that category.

  8. #8
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    It's up to Turbine to determine what they get out of their numbers. They could just as easily conclude something like "Oh we have many players doing raids, our raid instances must be very good so no need to improve there" as they can conclude "Noone is raiding, so there's no need to make any new raids because there's noone to play them".
    Different number, different excuse, same result.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    I was speaking specifically about multi-hour winged raids with locks. Helegrod, BG, OD, and Erebor are no longer in that category.
    I'm pretty sure the raid-locked multi-winged raids ship has sailed, sadly.
    If we want more of something, we need to encourage our fellow players into running group content, and doing everything in our part to ensure that the experience is enjoyable. Not that you'll necessarily succeed at the instance, but that you'll have a good time and a grand adventure along the way =)


    (I did actually have a PUG challenge I wanted to ask Turbine about for the Adventurer's events of 2012, but RL got away from me It really didn't necessitate anything other than an announcement at the start, and if the metrics already existed a single backend server-query at the end to determine the winners.)
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
    Delego-L85 Hunter ; Stodden-L51-Captain ; Edhul-L61-Loremaster
    Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler

  10. #10

    Quality not quantity

    Have you seen the changes they made to the Sword Halls? It's fairly disgraceful. Making a 3-man instance where success is almost entirely determined before you set foot inside (i.e via group class make-up) is very poor form.

    WB/Turbine needs to work on creating quality content - and what's more, leaving it so once it is - before, worrying about increasing the quantity. They also need to continue on their path of making all the instances in-game scaling. There's a lot of good content out there at the moment which is hardly touched due to archaic the level restrictions in this game. Thankfully, multi-level scaling instances are a way of getting around the content.

    However, I believe WB/Turbine has realised their mistake; they should have scaled US to the content instead of the other way around, with the loot drops being appropriate to our actual level. In this way they would have so much less to change in each of these scaling instances every time there's another level-cap raise.

    Of course, it's all really semantics though ever since they've taken away all the group-content from landscape. It's just another small step in the devolution of MMOs. But it's not all the developers fault. You're right; we the players have the power in the end. It's just unfortunate that MMOs have become so 'main-stream' that these days they're overridden with players that care primarily about their characters looks and equipment in some hedonistic, egotistical ploy to prove their worth, rather than the original fundamental values which were to work together as a group/community to overcome goals that were impossible alone, as well as play with other players and all the excitment and randomness that brings, rather than against/with a computer's AI.

    Oh, and yes I agree - as I said above already - that change comes from us doing our part. I've tried to do this for several years, and fellowship and play group content every-time I log one of my character's on.
    Last edited by Ruthelia; May 20 2013 at 03:07 AM.
    [center][I]"No, you are right. There is strength in these hobbits yet,
    and if they need to repel dangers from outside, they will do so."[/I]
    -Ranger Halros[/center]

  11. #11
    I see what you're doing, but I also see one problem with it (as Ruthelia has touched on): isn't it possible we could be telling Turbine that we're okay with the instances/raids as they are now? Because lack of content isn't the entire reason as to why I'm not playing Lotro as much anymore. Sure it was quite the large reason when we were waiting months and months. But now there is technically plenty to do, but the instances/raids are a bit of joke now. Most are pale shadows of their former selves. They're hack and slash, involving a great deal less skill than they used to.

    I don't want Turbine thinking this is okay to me. It feels like some of us are in between a rock and a hard spot.
    [url]http://wanderingthroughdigitalworlds.wordpress.com/[/url]

  12. #12
    Mad props to Crell for trying- seriously.

    Our kin has discussed similar things in the past, but it is so hard to fight the Developer-driven inertia of the game. It wasn't that long ago (radiance era, pre-barter nerf) that people were running a variety of instances, with interesting mechanics, in challenge modes, all while having fun. Sadly, those days are gone. The player-base today is conditioned to logging in and receiving rewards for almost no effort (and in some cases actually no effort). It's a cancer on the culture of the game, which has spread too widely to be treated. The Lord of the Rings Online's primary competitor now is Farmville, not World of Warcraft.

    I look forward to playing a non-Turbine version of LoTRO2 someday. I have no doubt that it will come- the IP is too valuable. Until then... our circuits dead, there's something wrong. Can you hear me, Major Tom?
    Adaaon (Minstrel)
    The Noldor of Arkenstone - an end-game raiding kinship

  13. #13
    I get your point OP, and congratulate you for some of the pugs i've seen you completed in other threads on the forum.
    But honestly, and i do like (or used to) this game, why would WE have to encourage others to play anything?
    When logging in, it should be to have fun. And how much fun exactly will i get by entering an instance where I:

    "1.Try to participate in at least 1 pug an hour." -
    Already did that instance too many times.

    "2.When leading, only ask for the minimum requirements." -
    Lead boring stuff i have already completed with other people who: probably never tried, dont have the gear nor the skills and will make this an infinite failing run.

    "3.During these runs, find 1 thing to compliment a player on for the run..."
    I dont get this. I'm not going to be their personal motivator after doing something in which they were carried by others.

    "4.Accept invitations to run content where you don't need or want any of the gear!"
    What's the point if I have done it too many times and it will probably be a sambrog or some faceroll thing like that.

    "5.Actively search for players who have an interest in trying harder-content, and do your best to include them in kin-runs or your own T2 Pugs!"
    These players have most likely left the game by now and last time i tried a pug t2 maybe 1 tell was from a person with full lvl 85 gear, others were guys with 5kmorale who didnt move.


    I don't mean to sound bitter (although it does come out like that) but why would i nearly work to improve a game im supposed to use to have fun? Fun being of course, different for everyone, however this seems to be a more raiding related thread. If it doesnt offer me any fun right now, i just leave for another game and spare myself all of this work. Which, by the way, works!

    Anyway, good luck with it.
    Elunwe Minstrel | Elunduil Hunter | Ellirin Champion | Micolo Burz |

  14. #14
    I tried a t2 BFE pug the other day. It wasn't pretty. If anyone plans on doing a pug t2 raid I highly suggest selective invites.

    I'll do a pug every once in awhile for pure amusement but why should we have to go out of our way to try n make people enjoy the game? If Turbine wants to pay me to get players to enjoy their game then I might be inclined...otherwise Turbine simply has to do a better job themselves. They've gotten awfully lazy. Two days ago I went into Flights T2 (level 25) so I could help a tank learn how to pick up mobs and positioning and this and that...4 times out of 6 the instance didn't even bother to start after we killed the initial 4 mobs. That was never an issue before U11.

    There is NOTHING...zero..zip..nada we raiders/group content lovers can do to encourage more (quality) group content. Lotro has attracted too many players who don't enjoy that aspect of the game. Lotro has scared off a large raiding player-base already. I think the Moors population exceeds the T2 raider population on Vilya.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by HeirOfNumenor View Post
    Crell - thank you for your post...very constructive suggestions in a positive tone.

    Those would be the types of things that would make me want to group with others - very hard when your entire kin are 85's, and your main is only 44 (alts in mid-high 20's).
    Your kinmates should be helping you get to 85, if they are not you should find a new kin.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b000000266db7/01001/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  16. #16
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    i do 4 raids daily, since they dont have cooldowns, does that counts? xD
    Saelyth is not forgotten...

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    Mad props to Crell for trying- seriously.

    Our kin has discussed similar things in the past, but it is so hard to fight the Developer-driven inertia of the game. It wasn't that long ago (radiance era, pre-barter nerf) that people were running a variety of instances, with interesting mechanics, in challenge modes, all while having fun. Sadly, those days are gone. The player-base today is conditioned to logging in and receiving rewards for almost no effort (and in some cases actually no effort). It's a cancer on the culture of the game, which has spread too widely to be treated. The Lord of the Rings Online's primary competitor now is Farmville, not World of Warcraft.

    I look forward to playing a non-Turbine version of LoTRO2 someday. I have no doubt that it will come- the IP is too valuable. Until then... our circuits dead, there's something wrong. Can you hear me, Major Tom?
    Just quit seriously, group content is one of the things turbine does best on record of their games.

    your circuits short circuited long ago you are a whiny elitist now that can't brag about anything which makes you furious, just leave and don't let the door hit you in the way out.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Just quit seriously, group content is one of the things turbine does best on record of their games.

    your circuits short circuited long ago you are a whiny elitist now that can't brag about anything which makes you furious, just leave and don't let the door hit you in the way out.
    Adaaon (Minstrel)
    The Noldor of Arkenstone - an end-game raiding kinship

  19. #19
    My suggestion is this. Turbine wants people to play the game. People want to play a game that is challenging (to their level) and rewarding (to the maximum). The hardest issue for Turbine to tackle the question: "how do we make it fair"? For years new players have complained they can't attain first ages in raids because the content is too hard and only a few dozen select few players posses the power to attain that gorgeous jewelery.

    Turbine introduced the easy instances with gold so that newer players could attain the maximum items. The issue with this in relation the the above statements is now that the best items can be attained by the new players the vet players become bored and start taking months breaks with nothing to do. Loot is something we all want, however, take my analogy:

    Surveys indicate job satisfaction (challenge included) is more important than money. Similarly, players need a challenge, a reason to log on. In a video game we need that feeling of "beating" or "winning". The gold item after 500 runs on a mindless run sets us down a path of feeling abused by a pay raise (reference to analogy).

    I have seen even new players begin to complain in main public channels the game has no direction (challenge) most of the instances are now ran completely without a healer. Surely this is not intended...

    The issue lies (in my opinion) in instance difficulty variation levels. T1 is complete face roll, almost solo-able for a excellent player and T2 is tough for even the most skilled as a full group. T2C can only be done by a select few. My suggestion to resolve of the above listed issues is to actually scale these appropriately and reward them in relation. I don't have all the answers but I can give an example - make the stats close enough that new players receive a worthy shiny but give the pro players a goal to get T3 at the slightest upgrade over T2. Similarly give T1 skill level players the urge to try T2.

    T1: 1.5% chance at gold - 90 Agility 90 Vitality 150 Morale 360 Critical rating
    T2: 2% chance at gold - 95 Agility 95 Vitality 175 Morale 385 Critical rating
    T3: 2.5% chance at gold - Full potency 100 Agility 100 Vitality 200 morale 400 Critical rating

    Bottom line is there need to be hard content, it needs to be rewarded with the best. Turbines issue is the difficulty level between T1 and T2 + T2C is too extreme and how good the loot difference was coerced them into making the best items available to all an even scale with no thought for the aftermath.

    As I have always said take the time and money to invest it will pay off in the end. Sit down and find what is fair rather than finding a quick solution that results in the game being diminished into nothing more than a Runescape grind for golds and people using the phrase: "This was the best MMO and a good game."

    This is my personal view as a raider, once a newbie and now not. My numbers and suggestion are broad and not perfect, simply listen to my main argument behind them. Stop getting overwhelmed thinking about new raids, better raids, new expansions, and solving problems instantly. Give each player according to his skill a challenge all the way up to the current T2C level so that players of all skills all rewarded and challenged. This will give us reason to log in - goals to be better and to get better - I guarantee you.
    Last edited by YesMaam; Jun 13 2013 at 02:39 AM.
    Yelk, Hunter| Rank 15 | Arkenstone | Leader of Shock and Awe
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post

    The issue lies (in my opinion) in instance difficulty variation levels. T1 is complete face roll, almost solo-able for a excellent player and T2 is tough for even the most skilled as a full group. T2C can only be done by a select few. My suggestion to resolve of the above listed issues is to actually scale these appropriately and reward them in relation. I don't have all the answers but I can give an example - make the stats close enough that new players receive a worthy shiny but give the pro players a goal to get T3 at the slightest upgrade over T2. Similarly give T1 skill level players the urge to try T2.

    T1: 1.5% chance at gold - 90 Agility 90 Vitality 150 Morale 360 Critical rating
    T2: 2% chance at gold - 95 Agility 95 Vitality 175 Morale 385 Critical rating
    T3: 2.5% chance at gold - Full potency 100 Agility 100 Vitality 200 morale 400 Critical rating

    Bottom line is there need to be hard content, it needs to be rewarded with the best. Turbines issue is the difficulty level between T1 and T2 + T2C is too extreme and how good the loot difference was coerced them into making the best items available to all an even scale with no thought for the aftermath.
    Something else to be done along with the balancing act of tiers, is make it so that the same strategies are required for t1, t2, and t3 (t2c)

    It's frustrating when you join a t1 pug for fun, or to help a friend, and using some stupid loophole, they are able to limp their way to the loot, using a method that would never work in challenge mode.

    If people were actually doing t1 to practice for t2, and challenge mode, we might see an increase in players completing the challenges.

    Example of this is Smaug, I can't stand when groups do t1 or t2 only using one side of levers

    IMO the only difference between t1 and t2 should be the amount of damage the bosses hit for, their finesse rating, and their critical multipliers, the Mechanics should be the same.

    Another example would be allowing varying levels of difficulties within tiers.

    Before downing BFE challenge with my kin on Elendilmir, I was helping some friends out trying it a few nights a week on Nimrodel on an alt. The group was far less skilled than the group I play with on Elendilmir, they had what it took to do challenge, but needed practice, especially the warden, who kept missing incoming ads.

    I wish Turbine would allow the use of all 6 flags in t1, for practice
    Last edited by EdalorTrailtamper; Jun 17 2013 at 07:03 AM.
    Manbeorpig 100 Beorning, Brandywine.

  21. #21
    Join Date
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    I agree with some of your thoughts OP but i agree far more with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by GloriousEagle View Post
    I get your point OP, and congratulate you for some of the pugs i've seen you completed in other threads on the forum.
    But honestly, and i do like (or used to) this game, why would WE have to encourage others to play anything?
    When logging in, it should be to have fun.
    My kin is dead , so it's easier not to log at all until something changes , if ever.
    Even if the whole group playerbase followed your suggestions , it would change nothing. We are not seeing any new group content ( or even a revamp ) any time soon so it doesn't worth it.

    No fun , no game.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    118
    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    I agree with some of your thoughts OP but i agree far more with this:



    My kin is dead , so it's easier not to log at all until something changes , if ever.
    Even if the whole group playerbase followed your suggestions , it would change nothing. We are not seeing any new group content ( or even a revamp ) any time soon so it doesn't worth it.

    No fun , no game.
    i could not agree more, and to those that say the complainers should leave, well MANY will not buy HD because they know it offers them nothing they want. and for each complainer that leaves a few dozen will leave or already have that never came here to say anything. true lotro will live on, but you cannot alienate 15-20% of your game population and not suffer dearly in the long run, have fun playing zynga lotro

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by wakeandbacon View Post
    and to those that say the complainers should leave, well MANY will not buy HD because they know it offers them nothing they want.
    The rest of your post is fine and makes valid points, but this ^^^ I have to call BS on simply because with virtually no details yet released for HD, how can anyone say they know it doesn't offer them anything they want?

    That would be like saying I'm not going to purchase a 2020 Ford Explorer because I KNOW it won't have any features I want. How could I possibly know that?
    Last edited by Feraxks; Jun 25 2013 at 05:43 PM. Reason: typo

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Feraxks View Post
    The rest of your post is fine and makes valid points, but this ^^^ I have to call BS on simply because with virtually no details yet released for HD, how can anyone say they know it doesn't offer them anything they want?
    Feraks is 100% correct. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We should all appreciate that by now.
    Adaaon (Minstrel)
    The Noldor of Arkenstone - an end-game raiding kinship

  25. #25
    Join Date
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    I do not think the gamer has much control over the encouragement of group play.

    The developer holds the puppet strings.

    My ideas as quickly as I can:

    1. Bring back optional quests for grouping at all levels.
    (many players in kin chat still ask for GS full runs to get the heritage items and xp for quests)
    2. Bring back the old loot system.
    (speaks for itself)
    3. Continue to produce a group area at end game.

 

 
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