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  1. #1

    Gated legacy instances keep out the fun.

    I love way that Turbine changed the instances so that they are multi-part. One hour instances are much better than 5 hours for those with time restrictions. However, the gated nature of them make it very difficult to get friends and kin mates involved. For example, in order to do Fornost, you HAVE to do them in a specific order. This means if we lose a party member, we have to find someone who just happens to be on the same part, rather than just picking up someone who wants to go.

    I find no reason to have gated instances in sub 85 content and would greatly appreciate it if there was some sort of consideration about maybe removing these gates to a good time.

  2. #2
    You can run all 4 in less than 1.5 hours, or even faster depending on the group doing the challenge at level 85.

    Want them like GB? to do all 3 in less than 25 mins?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by fulred View Post
    Want them like GB? to do all 3 in less than 25 mins?
    How about you read his/her post again? He's asking to have the gating removed, so people can pick whichever Fornost instance they want to play. He is not asking for changes made to anything inside the actual instances.

    I think it's a good idea. The alternative could perhaps be to have 2 kinds of gates - either you need to complete the previous instance, or you need to be at least lvl X (e.g. lvl 40), so new lvl 35+ players get the feeling of actually entering Fornost and progressing through the fortress while players who aren't playing in North Downs anyway can skip that.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; May 03 2013 at 09:47 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    How about you read his/her post again? He's asking to have the gating removed, so people can pick whichever Fornost instance they want to play. He is not asking for changes made to anything inside the actual instances.
    How about you read my post? It takes like 1.5 hrs to clear all 4 wings in order. Is that so hard? Do 1 wing a day for 4 days, then you are free to do whatever you would like.

    And why didn't he ask about GB? Which is also gated by deed? Probably because it is much faster and simpler, so everyone can do it in such a short time.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fulred View Post
    How about you read my post? It takes like 1.5 hrs to clear all 4 wings in order. Is that so hard? Do 1 wing a day for 4 days, then you are free to do whatever you would like.

    Honestly, all the instances are a joke. They are more like a farm.
    If you can keep all 6 in group yes. OP's point is that you need to start all over if someone has to leave and the new fellowship member does not have the deeds done. Then 1,5 hours can easily become 2,3 or 4 hours because more people may have to go as they keep redoing the same instances, or you might end up not bothering to do Fire and Shadow wing at all.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    If you can keep all 6 in group yes. OP's point is that you need to start all over if someone has to leave and the new fellowship member does not have the deeds done. Then 1,5 hours can easily become 2,3 or 4 hours because more people may have to go as they keep redoing the same instances, or you might end up not bothering to do Fire and Shadow wing at all.
    Compared to how Fornost was originally, this is such a breeze.

    Again, do one wing at a time when your friends are available for 20 mins a day. Deed done.

    This mentality has just led to over simplification of most of this instances. Honestly, do you ever find any 3 or 6 mans fun at all? It is merely a grind, a farm for those rare drops.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by fulred View Post
    Compared to how Fornost was originally, this is such a breeze.

    Again, do one wing at a time when your friends are available for 20 mins a day. Deed done.

    This mentality has just led to over simplification of most of this instances. Honestly, do you ever find any 3 or 6 mans fun at all? It is merely a grind, a farm for those rare drops.
    You do realize OP's character is like lvl 46 and only recently started playing again? (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...rs-impressions )
    He's not really at the point where you farm these instances for golden loot, nor at the point where DPS is high enough to really cleave through these instances. I'm also quite sure it's a lot harder to find people for Fornost at that level range than it is at lvl 85.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    You do realize OP's character is like lvl 46 and only recently started playing again? (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...rs-impressions )
    He's not really at the point where you farm these instances for golden loot, nor at the point where DPS is high enough to really cleave through these instances. I'm also quite sure it's a lot harder to find people for Fornost at that level range than it is at lvl 85.
    You do realize this game has been getting simpler and simpler. How is your own kin enjoying the new raids compared to the old ones? Have they been enjoying hybolt a lot more? Oh wait, those are all changes made to bring quality of life changes right? I hope you are definitely enjoying it more. Think about the ramifications first.

    You also realize that leveling is pretty much a joke, probably why Turbine now sells XP disablers.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by fulred View Post
    You do realize this game has been getting simpler and simpler. How is your own kin enjoying the new raids compared to the old ones? Have they been enjoying hybolt a lot more? Oh wait, those are all changes made to bring quality of life changes right? I hope you are definitely enjoying it more. Think about the ramifications first.

    You also realize that leveling is pretty much a joke, probably why Turbine now sells XP disablers.
    What has any of that to do with removal of Fornost gates? Oh right, nothing.

  10. #10
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    This shouldn't be an issue to get anyone's panties in a wad. There's no real reason to lock people out of certain wings. It's not as if there's some sort of story in the instance which requires bosses be killed in specific order.

    There's no upside to the gating, and the downside is exactly what the OP mentions. Later bosses don't get run because it's more difficult to form a PUG, and even in set groups, you have to keep the same 6 players together or risk having to run all the previous wings for unlocks.

    Some people will rant and mourn the "good old days", but there were never really good days for Fornost before it got split. It was a ghost town for 5 years. There should definitely be no gating on scaled content. It has a short enough shelf life as is. We ran OD a few times as a raid group, too, but most of our time was wasted running Wound/Fear to unlock it for players, since it's hard enough to get 12 to log on any given raid night, let alone the same 12 every time.
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  11. #11
    You only have to run them once to get them unlocked forever. I don't think this is a problem. I never have a problem finding people to fill out groups for these. You can also run all of these on level 20 to unlock them. That takes 2 minutes an instance.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    You only have to run them once to get them unlocked forever. I don't think this is a problem. I never have a problem finding people to fill out groups for these. You can also run all of these on level 20 to unlock them. That takes 2 minutes an instance.
    As much as you only have to run them once, it can still be hard to find 6 that have all the deeds for Shadow Wing, especially if you run instances below lvl 85. You cannot run Fornost at level 20, it's a lvl 35-ish instance minimum. As a lvl 46 you cannot run a lvl 35 instance in 2 minutes at all.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    As much as you only have to run them once, it can still be hard to find 6 that have all the deeds for Shadow Wing, especially if you run instances below lvl 85. You cannot run Fornost at level 20, it's a lvl 35-ish instance minimum. As a lvl 46 you cannot run a lvl 35 instance in 2 minutes at all.
    You can run Fornost set at level 30 and GB at 20. Neither of which should take long with all grey mobs.

  14. #14
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    To anyone else who disagrees with the OP's suggestion: What do you think the benefits of having the gates are?

    Even "back in the day" one could join a group on, say, the Fire boss and the group wouldn't have to start the instance from the beginning. You could join a group killing Thaurlach even if you have never stepped into the Rift before.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    You can run Fornost set at level 30 and GB at 20. Neither of which should take long with all grey mobs.
    You're missing the point. Why should there be gates at all? Nobody's asking for a workaround.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    You're missing the point. Why should there be gates at all? Nobody's asking for a workaround.
    I don't care if they are gated. I'm not here to argue. I gave a suggestion that makes it easier to get past the gates so they aren't a big deal. I figured I would help since it isn't likely to change soon. I'm sorry that my suggestion offends you. I will refrain from helpful tips in the future...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I don't care if they are gated. I'm not here to argue. I gave a suggestion that makes it easier to get past the gates so they aren't a big deal. I figured I would help since it isn't likely to change soon. I'm sorry that my suggestion offends you. I will refrain from helpful tips in the future...
    Well, your first post was, essentially:

    It's not a problem for me, so it's not a problem. Run them at L20 (which isn't possible) and they take 2 minutes (they take longer than 2 minutes even at L85).

    Your second post was slightly helpful, if the OP didn't know you could run the instance at other levels. But it doesn't solve the problem of having to stop progress to go back and unlock the instance for others, even if it takes slightly less time because the mobs are gray.

    Not trying to argue, just trying to stay on topic. Gating for recycled instances is annoying and serves no purpose.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by faithvoid View Post
    I love way that Turbine changed the instances so that they are multi-part. One hour instances are much better than 5 hours for those with time restrictions. However, the gated nature of them make it very difficult to get friends and kin mates involved. For example, in order to do Fornost, you HAVE to do them in a specific order. This means if we lose a party member, we have to find someone who just happens to be on the same part, rather than just picking up someone who wants to go.

    I find no reason to have gated instances in sub 85 content and would greatly appreciate it if there was some sort of consideration about maybe removing these gates to a good time.
    To some of us, the removal of those five hour instances is actually a loss. We loose the epicness of the story being told in the instance. That's why you have the gates: the story of the instance. Once the story has been told you're free to revisit the parts in any order you may wish.

    We also have gating within raids. You cannot do Fear wing in OD without first doing Wound. You cannot do Disease without first doing Fear. Etc. I think the term used here is progression. You progress through the instance (cluster).

    But I also see your point! Suddenly you cannot complete the instance because you cannot find a sixth player who can run fire wing. At level cap this is unlikely as most players would have completed at least three wings. At level 40... not so likely.

    Yet, I still feel the gating fills a purpose and that is in telling the story. Perhaps it should be possible to "un-gate" the instances of Fornost (and other non end-game instances) through Mithril coins? Un-gating them is not required to be able to play the game, it's just ... convenient.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven-EU View Post
    To some of us, the removal of those five hour instances is actually a loss. We loose the epicness of the story being told in the instance. That's why you have the gates: the story of the instance. Once the story has been told you're free to revisit the parts in any order you may wish.

    We also have gating within raids. You cannot do Fear wing in OD without first doing Wound. You cannot do Disease without first doing Fear. Etc. I think the term used here is progression. You progress through the instance (cluster).

    But I also see your point! Suddenly you cannot complete the instance because you cannot find a sixth player who can run fire wing. At level cap this is unlikely as most players would have completed at least three wings. At level 40... not so likely.

    Yet, I still feel the gating fills a purpose and that is in telling the story. Perhaps it should be possible to "un-gate" the instances of Fornost (and other non end-game instances) through Mithril coins? Un-gating them is not required to be able to play the game, it's just ... convenient.
    I agree with the sentiment of liking the long instances, but I'm a bit confused.

    Back before the IF, you never had to run the entire instance to get to a particular boss. Only 1 person needed to have locks to that boss, and anyone could join the instance. I could have formed a group for Mordirith and brought 5 people who had never done Carn Dum. I could have brought in a PUG for Remmenaeg who had never even heard of Fornost. If you picked someone up for Fear wing of OD, you didn't have to go back and do Wound for them, they just got the group's locks.

    With old content like this, I think gating should definitely be removed. There's no immersion anyway. I never completed Fornost on-level, because I was among the first players on my server to reach a high enough level, and didn't feel like waiting around for others to catch up. When they got scaled, I used the IF and did them all in order, some bosses for the first time. They hardly feel like the same instance, let alone have any sort of progression or "telling a story".

    The gates were probably included to placate people who objected to the break-up for storytelling reasons, but they don't preserve any of it, sadly. Breaking up the instances took that part of them away, and trying to solve that with artificial gates is like trying to reattach a severed limb with band-aids.

    At level cap this is unlikely as most players would have completed at least three wings.
    I don't think I've ever been in a Fire pug and had everyone eligible. Usually, 3-4 people haven't done it before and we either go back and do Water, take forever to form going through a bunch of ineligible people, or just give up altogether. I don't think Fornost is as popular as all that, especially since the drop rate for even teal items is horrendous.
    Last edited by Frisco; May 03 2013 at 12:10 PM.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Well, your first post was, essentially:

    It's not a problem for me, so it's not a problem. Run them at L20 (which isn't possible) and they take 2 minutes (they take longer than 2 minutes even at L85).

    Your second post was slightly helpful, if the OP didn't know you could run the instance at other levels. But it doesn't solve the problem of having to stop progress to go back and unlock the instance for others, even if it takes slightly less time because the mobs are gray.

    Not trying to argue, just trying to stay on topic. Gating for recycled instances is annoying and serves no purpose.
    So you reword my post in order to feel offended? Okay... Sorry, I forgot Fornost was 30. I'm sure that changed my point completely. It also isn't "slightly less time" to run them with all grey mobs unless you are doing it wrong.

    "Nobody asked for workarounds" is not on topic.

  21. #21
    The main argument against it is: it consumes the limited developer time that could be otherwise spent on something else that we might speculate to be somewhat useful to the overall community.

    So why are you trying to run something at such low level when it is obvious it so hard to find a non-level cap group?
    -Most logical reason (and the one for leveling at a slow pace) is to fully enjoy the content. My first toon, I took my time and did almost every quest to enjoy the story lines behind everything. I certainly did Fornost before they became 4 instances, though painful, I did it for the sake of continuity of the story line. The gates have been placed so that there is a flow to the story. This is a lore based game after all.

    If you are not interested in it, then at low level go ahead and skip it. Revisit it at a later level. The vast majority of lvl 85 players have not touched Fornost until level cap.

    FYI, the same gear, including legendaries, are available at every level. So if you are grinding and farming for those at your level and find difficulty finding a group to stick for an hour, that is your own issue. Do not demand a change that is only for your own convenience.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    Back before the IF, you never had to run the entire instance to get to a particular boss. Only 1 person needed to have locks to that boss, and anyone could join the instance. I could have formed a group for Mordirith and brought 5 people who had never done Carn Dum. I could have brought in a PUG for Remmenaeg who had never even heard of Fornost. If you picked someone up for Fear wing of OD, you didn't have to go back and do Wound for them, they just got the group's locks.
    Well, back then you could probably not bring in a random pug because you needed to have done Book 7 to be able to reach east angmar. At least before there was a summoning horn and camp fire there. You had to get to BG before you could join. There were gates back then too but maybe there were not such a big issue.

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven-EU View Post
    To some of us, the removal of those five hour instances is actually a loss. We loose the epicness of the story being told in the instance. That's why you have the gates: the story of the instance. Once the story has been told you're free to revisit the parts in any order you may wish.

    We also have gating within raids. You cannot do Fear wing in OD without first doing Wound. You cannot do Disease without first doing Fear. Etc. I think the term used here is progression. You progress through the instance (cluster).

    But I also see your point! Suddenly you cannot complete the instance because you cannot find a sixth player who can run fire wing. At level cap this is unlikely as most players would have completed at least three wings. At level 40... not so likely.

    Yet, I still feel the gating fills a purpose and that is in telling the story. Perhaps it should be possible to "un-gate" the instances of Fornost (and other non end-game instances) through Mithril coins? Un-gating them is not required to be able to play the game, it's just ... convenient.
    Funny you should mention OD. Before the split up, you were free to pick Disease (and Poison after) before picking Wound Wing. after the split-up, you can't. You're stuck to do Wound + Fear because you can start on Disease. I have a real hard time seeing how that gating serves any purpose (Ivar + Gorth gate makes sense though).

    Quote Originally Posted by fulred View Post
    The main argument against it is: it consumes the limited developer time that could be otherwise spent on something else that we might speculate to be somewhat useful to the overall community.

    So why are you trying to run something at such low level when it is obvious it so hard to find a non-level cap group?
    -Most logical reason (and the one for leveling at a slow pace) is to fully enjoy the content. My first toon, I took my time and did almost every quest to enjoy the story lines behind everything. I certainly did Fornost before they became 4 instances, though painful, I did it for the sake of continuity of the story line. The gates have been placed so that there is a flow to the story. This is a lore based game after all.

    If you are not interested in it, then at low level go ahead and skip it. Revisit it at a later level. The vast majority of lvl 85 players have not touched Fornost until level cap.

    FYI, the same gear, including legendaries, are available at every level. So if you are grinding and farming for those at your level and find difficulty finding a group to stick for an hour, that is your own issue. Do not demand a change that is only for your own convenience.
    If spending their limited time on fixing gating means fewer slot machine gimmicks aka Hobbit Presents then so much the better.

    "though painful" really says it all. Just because it was painful for you it has to be painful for others as well?

    I can also promise you as much as fixing this gating will not only help him. I see many pug runs ending up in never getting started on Evernight because so few people have access to Fire and Shadow wing.

  24. #24
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    The original Fornost instance was large. You would start by picking up quests outside of the instance, from NPCs who would tell you a story about why you were doing the quests. Then you would spend a long time in the instance doing the quests before ultimately heading out to turn in the quests for pretty decent rewards. The instance spanned over six levels (starting at around 35 and ending around 41 or 42). You probably wouldn't do the whole instance in one sitting because of these factors, but you probably would come back around level 42ish because you would probably only have had 2 or 3 out of the 4 morgul hilts you needed for the last quest. It all felt pretty epic.

    I believe the locks are an attempt to preserve some of that epicness (though I do understand the inconvenience factor).

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    If spending their limited time on fixing gating means fewer slot machine gimmicks aka Hobbit Presents then so much the better.
    You really have a hard time understanding huh? The game is slowly deviating away from the epic raids and challenging instances, and trickling down to petty games such as the ones that you express. Deep down, it is the same mentality as the OP that drives the game towards the spiral of simplicity and convenience. The hobbit presents is a prime example of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    "though painful" really says it all.
    A method used by those with a weak to non valid argument in order to attempt to validate any claim they may have. As I mentioned, the main purpose of gating is to preserve the story line behind the instances and the quests, to keep the lore, to keep this game from degrading down to pixels put together into cohesive shapes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    I can also promise you as much as fixing this gating will not only help him. I see many pug runs ending up in never getting started on Evernight because so few people have access to Fire and Shadow wing.
    Again, this is Fornost unlocks we are talking about. It is not ToO t2 saruman deed at level 75. These locks are easy to do.

    If you cannot even put the effort to run the instances once, then you shouldn't even be eligible to complain about them. Worst case, run it at the lowest level possible. Heck, even solo or duo them.

    Other people's mediocrity, laziness or inability to play for less than 20mins should not detract from other users' experience.

    Fornost, in its original form, was a vast yet difficult instance. They simplified it a lot with the last update by separating it into 4 instances. They put the "gates" that need to be unlocked once, so that players might experience the story behind it. Is that so hard to get? Seems so. Let's just get rid of it because it is so inconvenient for people.

    Let's also allow people to auto-rank toons like in Bullroarer, after all, it is inconvenient to level. Might as well add an option to get all the loot that you desire, some people do not have the time to run instances and raids, but still want the gear from them. Would that make all of you happy?
    Last edited by fulred; May 03 2013 at 04:29 PM.

 

 
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