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  1. #1

    Legendary Solo Build: Memories of the first age

    Please read this entire thread before posting, for your sake and my own.

    Legendary Solo Build:
    Memories of the first age.
    - Separated from your companions you draw upon the songs and stories of the first age to inspire you from despair.

    Notes. -
    Captains have been tethered and balanced upon the following equation - (captain power = Personal contribution + Group buffs). There is nothing wrong with this equation, and it is good that we are balanced this way, however there is one major flaw. If we are not in a group then our total power is cut in half. There are 2 notions expressed on these forums that are particularly telling in this regard.
    1. Leveling a captain is slow and arduous, the dps is poor.
    2. We are an alting class. Or in other words the captain only logs in when a group is made, then logged out after.
    Over the past year we have seen two major requests on the forums.
    1. make heralds useful.
    2. give us dps. (this has always been denied because we are tethered to the above equation)
    Our current Developer, DEviled_Egg has truly made some head way here, more so than I have ever seen before. However we still have a long way to go, and we share that developer with other classes who also need work.

    The only way to fix the solo captain is to allow the ability to alter this equation. The only way to alter it while keeping the balance it entails is to create a new legendary trait...Memories of the first age. What this trait would do is subtract from "Group buffs" and add that same amount to "Personal Contribution" in such a way that the net total of "captain power" remains the same. By maintaining the same total the world around us remains in the same balance.

    How the legendary would be added.

    IDOME would drop off the legendary trait line and become a skill available without traiting. This would open up a free spot for a new legendary trait. This would allow us the room to have a capstone, while only having to choose between a defensive legendary or an offensive legendary. This is the only way I see to get this in, if you are concerned about the value of IDOME please see our threads on the subject from the captain library.

    Summary of Memories of the first age.
    We can currently have blade brother on us and a banner down, but we have to have a player in our group. Memories of the first age would allow us to do the same thing without a group and have a herald out.

    Details.
    Banner - When a banner is equipped both the internal and planted buffs are applied without planting, banner is un-plantable

    Herald -
    1. Herald armor is dropped entirely, all heralds become oathbreakers (Heralds are not currently powerful enough to make two different kinds and no one wants to walk around the battlefield with some homeless guy carrying a sign). You may now summon an oathbreaker herald at anytime or traitline. While Memories of the first age is traited heralds banner auras are turned off.
    2. Herald dmg matches weapon type. Example if you have beleriand then your herald will do beleriand
    3. Give herald reasonable finesse and agility (fix miss avoid chance).

    Blade Brother - While Memories of the first age is traited brother skills become a toggle and locked onto yourself and the herald. Brother skills cannot be applied to the group. SOW becomes toggled to on at 15% and To Arms is reduced to 12.5% dmg (effectively half to-arms power throughout S/bb/sb) and is toggled on at all times.

    PvP -
    Battle shout has a 50% chance to slow for -10% run speed for 10seconds.
    Last stands cool down is reduced to 5m (command set to make that 4m). It no longer prevents death, but gives us a 2.5k morale bubble for 1m and a 2min power POT. This is a value nerf to last stand, but an effective buff to it because Laststand is completely useless to anything but newbs who don't know they can't kite the 15s out with nothing to fear but battleshout.

    TLDR what value did we get?

    1. We can now have a herald along with our banner
    2. We reduced the miss avoid chance of herald, which can be 33% through agility and finesse on a "heavy" creep.
    3. We altered Last stand in such a way as to make it useful. A value nerf but effective buff, only applied while traited.
    4. We have oathbreaker heralds in any traitline.
    5. We now have a ranged slow that will allow us to reach a perma kiting opponent and increases our slow to a competitive level.
    6. IDOME, gets used again for things other than skirmishes.

    What miscellaneous value did we get?
    1. We removed banner plant, and it's consequential 268 power cost per plant
    2. We removed the need to replant the banner and lose 2s every time something moves outside it's range.
    3. We removed the conflict with morale banners planted value only occurring in range. Example if you are surprised by a creep then you have no planted value.
    4. We removed Hotswap emblem>Hotswap weapon>cast strength of will>cast To Arms>hotswap back>hotswap back out of our rotation while trying to defend ourselves against creep or npc attack or just plain battle prep before every attack.

    What did we lose.

    1. Banner aura for other players.
    2. Any brother skills for other players.
    3. Last stand as we know it. Only altered when legendary is traited.
    4. massive amounts of non dps battle prep and power lost to banner planting.

    *This is play style neutral. Other than getting IDOME for free, captain mechanics as they currently exist can be entirely maintained by not traiting Memories of the first age. If your getting hung up on IDOME please see our IDOME threads, you can find them under the "Legendary Traits" section of the "captain resources" section.

    *This thread is meant to convey concept. Consider all value changes Dev-balanced within the equation, ex herald dmg, BB etc.

    *While reading this thread you may wish to read the dev diary for Guardians as it will be referenced a lot under the assumption that the reader understands the ROR changes.
    Last edited by Armitas; Nov 26 2012 at 02:39 PM.
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  2. #2
    You say Captains lack DPS and you also say Heralds are useless. This is an oxy-moron. Traiting Loyalty and Banner of War significantly increases your Herald's DPS and hence your own as well.

    I can understand if Captains have problems in PvMP but I think your problem is you never traited Loyalty while leveling.


    EDIT: Also, Archers have significantly more DPS than a standard Herald.
    Last edited by Finnway; Nov 22 2012 at 10:04 AM.
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  3. #3
    ^^^
    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    give me 15min to look over this before responding. Message will disappear after quality check.

    Are you unable to follow directions? I can tell I will have a jolly good time with this thread if people can't even read the first banner bolded and waffled. Not mad at you personally I just have nighmares of previous unread threads flooding back to memory and raising my general frustration at forum posting...along with my growing concern over the voyage of repetition I will soon embark on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Finnway View Post
    You say Captains lack DPS and you also say Heralds are useless. This is an oxy-moron. Traiting Loyalty and Banner of War significantly increases your Herald's DPS and hence your own as well.

    I can understand if Captains have problems in PvMP but I think your problem is you never traited Loyalty while leveling.


    EDIT: Also, Archers have significantly more DPS than a standard Herald.
    Oxymoron - I do not think it means what you think it means.

    In regards to herald dps go calculate it against a creep or any of the moors training dummies. Calculate the actual dps not damage. I can tell you now that with loyalty traited it is 10dps on kelsen and less on a reaver. On a reaver it's about 8dps which is less than the reavers icmr.

    I always have loyalty traited when I use a herald for pvp.

    IMO Heralds are good enough in pve. This is just the first step however. For those who want additional dps there is room to reblance the equation further along herald dps, should that be needed. But lets stick with the above for now.
    Last edited by Armitas; Nov 22 2012 at 11:00 AM.
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  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Location
    Bulgaria
    Posts
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    So, are you asking for in-depth change of class mechanics and skills just becouse you cannot solo in da moors?
    If YES - you are officially proclaimed for the Lendas of the Captains!

    If NO - I can understand how unique, exciting and simply great your proposal looks in your eyes, but you have to understand there will be people that may not see it like you do.

    Actually I liked some part of it, but then you started asking for too much, too many toggles at least. For example: I can agree exchanging IDOME for a new Legendary that enhances solo play could be a nice move, but I can see IDOME more like a part of yellow line instead of un-traited toggle, thats just too much.
    I hunt. I kill.

    Warden by destiny, Hunter in the heart.

  5. #5
    ^ See our threads about the value of Idome.

    Quote Originally Posted by MightyKOko View Post
    So, are you asking for in-depth change of class mechanics and skills just becouse you cannot solo in da moors?
    Yes, when there is no group to join I would like myself and other captains to effectivly be a part of the moors as much as any other class. This is both for pve and pvp, as the equation applies to both. I will reference the current mini which is a great raid healer and a great solo moors class, one that is currently holding first to second place among the creep OP list. I will also reference the current and peer-reviewed moors hierarchy list. I understand the Lendas reference but I don't care what title you bestow upon me, your nobody to give me one.

    Allowing you to summon a herald with a banner equipped is not in-depth. The only thing close to "in depth" might be the changes to last stand, which I mentioned is a value nerf.

    The toggled blade brother is equal in value to the current blade brother 100% except that now we don't waste 6-8 seconds on non dps hand waving.

    In total the "captain power" remains unchanged per the equation variables.
    Last edited by Armitas; Nov 22 2012 at 11:46 AM.
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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sao Paulo - Brazil
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    206
    Quote Originally Posted by Armitas View Post
    Please read this entire thread before posting, for your sake and my own.

    Legendary Solo Build:
    Memories of the first age.
    - Separated from your companions you draw upon the songs and stories of the first age to inspire you from despair.

    Notes. -
    Captains have been tethered and balanced upon the following equation - (captain power = Personal contribution + Group buffs). There is nothing wrong with this equation, and it is good that we are balanced this way, however there is one major flaw. If we are not in a group then our total power is cut in half. There are 2 notions expressed on these forums that are particularly telling in this regard.
    1. Leveling a captain is slow and arduous, the dps is poor.
    2. We are an alting class. Or in other words the captain only logs in when a group is made, then logged out after.
    Over the past year we have seen two major requests on the forums.
    1. make heralds useful.
    2. give us dps. (this has always been denied because we are tethered to the above equation)
    Our current Developer, DEviled_Egg has truly made some head way here, more so than I have ever seen before. However we still have a long way to go, and we share that developer with other classes who also need work.

    The only way to fix the solo captain is to allow the ability to alter this equation. The only way to alter it while keeping the balance it entails is to create a new legendary trait...Memories of the first age. What this trait would do is subtract from "Group buffs" and add that same amount to "Personal Contribution" in such a way that the net total of "captain power" remains the same. By maintaining the same total the world around us remains in the same balance.

    How the legendary would be added.

    IDOME would drop off the legendary trait line and become a skill available without traiting. This would open up a free spot for a new legendary trait. This would allow us the room to have a capstone, while only having to choose between a defensive legendary or an offensive legendary. This is the only way I see to get this in, if you are concerned about the value of IDOME please see our threads on the subject from the captain library.

    Summary of Memories of the first age.
    We can currently have blade brother on us and a banner down, but we have to have a player in our group. Memories of the first age would allow us to do the same thing without a group and have a herald out.

    Details.
    Banner - When a banner is equipped both the internal and planted buffs are applied without planting, banner is un-plantable

    Herald -
    1. Herald armor is dropped entirely, all heralds become oathbreakers (Heralds are not currently powerful enough to make two different kinds and no one wants to walk around the battlefield with some homeless guy carrying a sign). You may now summon an oathbreaker herald at anytime or traitline. While Memories of the first age is traited heralds banner auras are turned off.
    2. Herald dmg matches weapon type. Example if you have beleriand then your herald will do beleriand
    3. Give herald reasonable finesse and agility (fix miss avoid chance).

    Blade Brother - While Memories of the first age is traited brother skills become a toggle and locked onto yourself and the herald. Brother skills cannot be applied to the group. SOW becomes toggled to on at 15% and To Arms is reduced to 12.5% dmg (effectively half to-arms power throughout S/bb/sb) and is toggled on at all times.

    PvP -
    Battle shout has a 50% chance to slow for -10% run speed for 10seconds.
    Last stands cool down is reduced to 5m (command set to make that 4m). It no longer prevents death, but gives us a 2.5k morale bubble for 1m and a 2min power POT. This is a value nerf to last stand, but an effective buff to it because Laststand is completely useless to anything but newbs who don't know they can't kite the 15s out with nothing to fear but battleshout.

    TLDR what value did we get?

    1. We can now have a herald along with our banner
    2. We reduced the miss avoid chance of herald, which can be 33% through agility and finesse on a "heavy" creep.
    3. We altered Last stand in such a way as to make it useful. A value nerf but effective buff, only applied while traited.
    4. We have oathbreaker heralds in any traitline.
    5. We now have a ranged slow that will allow us to reach a perma kiting opponent and increases our slow to a competitive level.
    6. IDOME, gets used again for things other than skirmishes.

    What miscellaneous value did we get?
    1. We removed banner plant, and it's consequential 268 power cost per plant
    2. We removed the need to replant the banner and lose 2s every time something moves outside it's range.
    3. We removed the conflict with morale banners planted value only occurring in range. Example if you are surprised by a creep then you have no planted value.
    4. We removed Hotswap emblem>Hotswap weapon>cast strength of will>cast To Arms>hotswap back>hotswap back out of our rotation while trying to defend ourselves against creep or npc attack or just plain battle prep before every attack.

    What did we lose.

    1. Banner aura for other players.
    2. Any brother skills for other players.
    3. Last stand as we know it. Only altered when legendary is traited.
    4. massive amounts of non dps battle prep and power lost to banner planting.

    *This is play style neutral. Other than getting IDOME for free, captain mechanics as they currently exist can be entirely maintained by not traiting Memories of the first age.

    *This thread is meant to convey concept. Consider all value changes Dev-balanced within the equation, ex herald dmg, BB etc.
    Instead of a trait, it could be a stance, like the hunters and champs have.. while u are using the captain solo stance, all this you told is applied to the captain...thus we could switch from solo stance to group when needed without having to search for a bard...
    [b][size=3][FONT=Garamond][color=#8B0000][center]HELGRIMM OF ELENDILMIR[/color][/FONT][/size][/b][color=#696969][i]Still I'm pushing onward, alone I can't deny
    My presence fills the desert, my spirit never dies![/i][/color][/center]
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  7. #7
    Yeah stance would work and it's a lot easier than retraiting every time. I hesitated to put it in there because I know there is a good portion of the crowd here that is anti-stance. I'd be cool with it either way. As long as something allows us to alter that equation I'm good with it.

    I will leave it like it is, but a stance is most certainly a viable candidate on altering that equation and one that would lay right over top of all this..so imagine it in the way you prefer.
    Last edited by Armitas; Nov 22 2012 at 05:31 PM.
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  8. #8
    I will say this first - after having played exclusively as a captain for a long time and then spending the last few weeks as a warden, the deficiencies of the captain class stand out a little more to me now. The difference between playing a captain vs. a warden is like night and day, and this difference really comes to light in solo skirmishes. Whereas I always have to stay on my toes with a captain + herbalist even on Tier I solo, my warden + archer now breezes through them with almost no survivability concerns, even in Storm on Methedras, which used to be challenging.

    But that being said, the captain is still a support class. That is his prominent role, and no one does it better than he does. The entire class is built around it. It would take much more than what you're suggesting to increase his solo capability - it would require a complete redesign of the class, and I just don't see that happening. He was designed to be played in groups, and no other class even comes close to bringing what a captain brings to a group. Yes, that means we have to suffer a little more in solo play, but that's how it is.

    If you're that eager on solo play, I would recommend starting another class and using that one for it. Warden is a great choice. I still love my captain and consider him my main, and he is a blast in groups, but when I want to play alone or can't find anyone, I have my warden. The most important rewards I get on my warden can still be used on my captain, so I'm really not losing much for either class.

    What I bring to a group as a captain is unmatched by any other class. The developers are very big on concept, and they will not be willing to make the class so solo-friendly without giving up some of his group benefits, and I wouldn't give those up for anything. They are what make a captain a captain.

    In response to your specific suggestions:

    1.) IDOME as a regular skill would work, but it would have to be scaled back (to about half). Yes, I've read the threads about the minimal benefits compared to other legendary skills, etc., but no matter how you look at it, +85 to everything is still noteworthy enough to be a legendary trait when you consider that it's a toggle skill with no buildup or other requirements.

    2.) I do not agree with your concept of having a banner and herald at the same time. Being able to have the +physical mastery of a banner +unlimited blade brother even at 12.5% is far too OP. The only reason we get physical mastery on our banners is because we lose the attack of the herald, so for this to work, you would have to remove all physical mastery bonuses from all of the banners. Truthfully, I would rather see that anyway - let banners just give the banner effects (morale, power, or might/agility), and do away with the regular herald. Make all the heralds archers and give them the morale/power share abilities with it, along with morale of the regular heralds. And then make the brother skills just like War Cry - give them the ability to always stay up, in solo or grouping. The boost is only 25% - it's very helpful but it will not be game-breaking to let it stay up 100% of the time instead of 50% of the time. But it does need to actually be used - not a toggle skill.
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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    1,864
    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    But that being said, the captain is still a support class. That is his prominent role, and no one does it better than he does. The entire class is built around it. It would take much more than what you're suggesting to increase his solo capability - it would require a complete redesign of the class, and I just don't see that happening. He was designed to be played in groups, and no other class even comes close to bringing what a captain brings to a group. Yes, that means we have to suffer a little more in solo play, but that's how it is.

    If you're that eager on solo play, I would recommend starting another class and using that one for it. Warden is a great choice. I still love my captain and consider him my main, and he is a blast in groups, but when I want to play alone or can't find anyone, I have my warden. The most important rewards I get on my warden can still be used on my captain, so I'm really not losing much for either class.

    What I bring to a group as a captain is unmatched by any other class. The developers are very big on concept, and they will not be willing to make the class so solo-friendly without giving up some of his group benefits, and I wouldn't give those up for anything. They are what make a captain a captain.
    This.

    I play my Captain for the sole reason that he's awesome in group play and you can really feel the difference between having a good Captain or bad/no Captain in a fellowship.

    While Captains are a absolute pain to lvl, he's alright in solo when well geared. When you get to lvl 85 and start reaching 2.3-2.6k might and 24-30% melee crit chance you're actually doing decent DPS in LtC while still having loads of heals, and Mounted Combat on Captain just insane at the moment.

    While I guess a stance similar to the Minstrels War-speech might be nice, I really don't think Captains should be changed as radically as you do it here.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post

    If you're that eager on solo play, I would recommend starting another class and using that one for it. Warden is a great choice.
    This just should not be. It's poor design to have a class that is not entirely fulfilled. It should be embarrassing to Turbine that the notions I posted at the top are so readily confirmed. Having to roll a second class to make up for a certain portion of underdevelopment is just plain bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    It would take much more than what you're suggesting to increase his solo capability
    I agree. This is only the first step but a necessary one. I don't want anyone to be confused about this thread. The purpose of "Memories of the first age" legendary is to allow us the option to re-balance the variables in the equation. This legendary is the #1 reason for this thread because it is the only foundation upon which our class can grow in the solo spectrum without breaking the world balance. The equation total MUST remain the same, only the variables can change. At any rate the "details" are just steps on a path, the foundation is what really matters. If we don't get that foundation in we won't ever get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post

    The developers are very big on concept, and they will not be willing to make the class so solo-friendly without giving up some of his group benefits, and I wouldn't give those up for anything.
    These are only given up by choice. You voluntarily give them up because you are playing solo by traiting the trait. Without traiting it all things remain the same (save IDOME)

    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    1.) IDOME no matter how you look at it, +85 to everything is still noteworthy enough to be a legendary trait when you consider that it's a toggle skill with no buildup or other requirements.
    Menace put a lot of data and numbers into that thread. The only rebuttal has been "Idome, its just awesome when you combine it all" but I have seen no data as to the value of that combination. I'm going to need hard proof, not here, to believe it. I am a strong believer in Gestalt theory, but I still need the hard data at the end of it. (not here please).

    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    2.) I do not agree with your concept of having a banner and herald at the same time. Being able to have the +physical mastery of a banner +unlimited blade brother even at 12.5% is far too OP.
    Why? why is this OP when you just said it doesn't go far enough? Where do you think our dps will be in comparison to other classes? Blade brother with banner down is already happening now, we are only adding a herald. Our herald dps is about 8-10dps on some reavers. How will adding 10dps to the already currently used BB and banner combo make us OP? DPS classes can reach 4 and 5k dps, best I have heard out of cappies is 1700. What is 10 dps on top of that? Will archer dps single-handedly bridge the 2-3k dps gap? As far as the blade brother it is exactly equal to the current one, it's just that now you don't have to waste time hotswaping and casting while attacked (30seconds at 25% = 12.5% at 1m). By making this a toggle you are adding around ~150dps (3x 2second casts in a minute parse is now removed from the parse or 1400 avgdps x 60seconds = 8400dmg/ 54 seconds = dps added..ish.), so by removing the toggle you are nerfing the change way too much.

    You have your warden to fall back on, but I'm going to stay here and hold out for what is right. And what is right is for our class to be completely fulfilled, rather than an alt class. Alt classes are a sign of poor development. Our current dev has taken the first strides into this territory and I have hope that she will keep it up.
    Last edited by Armitas; Nov 26 2012 at 05:29 PM.
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  11. #11
    Join Date
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    I like the concept of being able to use a banner and herald at the same time, while also sacrificing some of our survivability and group buffing capability (out of combat buffs don't count IMO). Like the guardians, wardens, and minis before us, we are long overdue for a VIABLE DPS stance.

    To prevent a derail: The entire captain/herald relationship needs work. I strongly feel that the damage type sharing should be baseline herald stuff, and that the herald and skirmish system should be married into a stronger herald.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  12. #12
    I'm not completely opposed to the stance idea. I think that would be a better option than creating a legendary trait to increase solo potential. A solid DPS stance similar to War-speech could be helpful if implemented correctly, but I still think that the proposed changes here are a little too unbalancing.

    Also, as a side note (and to make a comparison), the warden really doesn't have a viable DPS stance. The difference between Determination and Recklessness is overwhelming. The ICPR should have gone into Recklessness - that's where it's really needed. Going in Recklessness might shave a few seconds off your fight, and until Level 64, will leave you out of power all the time.

    However - the warden brings extreme survivability to the table, so I am content with lower DPS. Likewise, the captain brings extreme group support to the table, along with decent morale/power healing for the group, and even decent tanking potential. He has to take a hit somewhere, and in his case, it's in DPS.

    I don't consider the captain underdeveloped at all. In fact, he can do more than any other class. I understand your point of view, Armitas. I love my captain, too, and as much as I'd like to see him with super DPS, it just wouldn't feel right solo. Captains are leaders, and without people to lead they cannot be captains.

    Another thing - I don't consider my captain "deficient" in the way you imply. He is perfectly sufficient. I rolled a second class essentially for solo skirmishing. People choose classes based on their preferences. People that like to heal often choose minstrels, people that like to tank choose guardians or wardens, and to me, that's really not much different than someone wanting to roll a captain because they want to provide support. It's what the class is for - it even says it when you roll it.

    One final note - what does the captain need extra DPS for? He doesn't need it for landscape content. He doesn't need it for skirmishes. He doesn't need it for solo instancing - there are still many instances he will never be able to do by himself and no amount of DPS will fix that. The only place he would possibly need it (and the only place you've mentioned) is in PvP.

    The majority of players (on my server at least) are not in PvP. The ones not at cap are working landscape content and skirms to get there, and most of the players at cap are doing skirms (until the RoR instance cluster is released). I'm not discounting the importance of PvP - it's still there and many players enjoy it, and you have just as much right to enjoy your game as anyone else. But I don't think even the changes you've suggested will make much difference in re-balancing, and I don't think changing the class is the answer, either, because that would not be fair to some of us who do not do PvP and are content with the class as it stands. Also, the captain is not the only unbalanced class in PvP - to fix it would require a complete rework of the PvP engine, or another option is to do like some other MMO's and have the skill set modified for PvP. The skills would still be named the same, but their effects would be different.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    but I still think that the proposed changes here are a little too unbalancing.
    How, why? show me numbers. You can't just drop bombs like that without backing it up. The equation is there, Prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    I don't consider the captain underdeveloped at all.
    You tell me how comparatively bad the captain is to a warden then tell me how readily you are to switch to your warden whenever the group is gone and tell me thats not underdeveloped? You tell me the captain is "deficient". You see the hierarchy list there with our coveted position we earn each year and still tell me that's not underdeveloped?

    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    Another thing - I don't consider my captain "deficient" in the way you imply.
    The "ways that I imply" are the personal capacity of the captain which you have personally attested to as deficient, and also PVP upon which you agreed that the captain is unbalanced.
    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post

    One final note - what does the captain need extra DPS for?
    Leveling and entering a raid to fill a dps slot much like guardians, a tank class, can now. However my proposal is no where near enough to make that happen. It is only the first step to allowing that possibility. I want to start seeing threads about how fun a captain is to level. I want to see more people on these forums, and more people playing their captain in the moors and between raids.
    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post

    But I don't think even the changes you've suggested will make much difference in re-balancing, (see first quote)
    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    It would take much more than what you're suggesting to increase his solo capability
    Come on man, pick one! You open up by saying that this will be too unbalancing and even OP at one point, and now you say it won't make a difference in re-balancing and that it wouldn't go far enough. You need to believe one thing or the other but not both because I won't have the patience to continue with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    and I don't think changing the class is the answer, either, because that would not be fair to some of us who do not do PvP and are content with the class as it stands
    I went over this a second time already, I won't do it a third. If you ignored it the first, and second time I have no reason to believe you will read it this time. I'd rather cut that voyage of repetition short right here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    Also, the captain is not the only unbalanced class in PvP - to fix it would require a complete rework of the PvP engine
    Prove it. Show me the data that these proposes are in direct conflict to the pvp engine. You can't just drop bombs without proving it.

    I am sorry if I seem frustrated, because I am. Words..bombs even without proof, contradictory beliefs to suit your point, and having to repeat myself really get me frustrated quickly. Not angry at you personally, were cool, just very peevish about those types of things.
    Last edited by Armitas; Nov 23 2012 at 10:17 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    One final note - what does the captain need extra DPS for? He doesn't need it for landscape content. He doesn't need it for skirmishes. He doesn't need it for solo instancing - there are still many instances he will never be able to do by himself and no amount of DPS will fix that. The only place he would possibly need it (and the only place you've mentioned) is in PvP.
    When we get the new endgame content and we're out of the stupidly easy skirms, the rule is going to be (once again) one captain to a group - excluding MC instances (if those will exist) that is.

    The reason for the extra DPS is that a second captain would be more welcome to a group, and (as suggested) if we have to have our buffing and healing abilities eat themselves to do it, so be it.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  15. #15
    I've given myself a day to mull this around. I like the reasoning for your proposed change Arm, your Captain power equation, and agree with you that we can use a buff for solo only. Grouped, we are fine and don't require much more than some rather minor tweeking.

    One issue that I believe exists with your suggestion of a new legendary is that you propose it would help solo Captain's level. We don't acquire legendary traits til level 45-50ish. A new legendary trait would not help the leveling process til we reached the appropriate level. This new legendary would certainly help higher level Captains but do nothing for our lower level brethren.

    I was thinking of simplifying your idea by just allowing us to apply Brother directly to ourselves. We would then get the benefits of SoW, To Arms and Inspire without needing a herald. However, this runs into the same problem as the legendary trait idea, we don't acquire the brother skills until higher levels, thus does squat for low levels.

    This points me towards the direction of a stance, acquired at level 20, similar to Minis Warspeech. This stance, when applied, would increase our DPS and self healing but would restrict our group buffs and group heals.

    Thats all I have for now, putting up the Christmas tree and decorations.
    Gungus - Captain

  16. #16
    I did not say the captain was comparatively bad to a warden - those are your words. I said the captain has deficiencies, and I also said that the warden has deficiencies. I like to use my warden for solo skirmishing. When I'm in a group, my captain is more fun. I still have a hard time believing that the devs really had group play in mind for the warden - he cannot tank as well as the guardian because the guardian is loaded with force taunts, and the warden only has one, which he can only use once every 3 minutes and 30 seconds and has to slot a legendary for it. Without tanking, he brings nothing special to a group at all except one little group heal that most players don't bother with because of the high buildup with little return.

    "Bad" is purely subjective, and I'm sorry you feel that way about the captain, because I certainly don't. The fact that I enjoy solo play with the warden more does not devalue the captain class. When I want to actually play with someone, I would rather put my warden to rest and jump on my captain. That does not make my warden class bad, either. It means they are both better at certain things. The captain was designed to be be optimized for group play - I don't see that changing, and I hope that it doesn't.

    Also, my captain was not a pain to level. I'll even say - he was fun to level! He had a rough patch in the 40's until I started getting LI's, but apart from that, it never felt like a slogfest. Likewise, the same thing happened to my warden until Level 20. Every class has it somewhere.

    OK, now I have to say this...you really want the captain to be able to fill a DPS slot in a raid. How can you possibly consider that balanced? The captain is not a DPS class! There is no other class I would want to bring into a raid, because no other class can bring more to a raid than the captain already does, and he doesn't need DPS to do any of it! DPS is really the captain's only notable deficiency - if you want to change that, then why not let champions start healing the group and give hunters some tanking skills. I know you don't see it that way, but to me, DPS is a role, just like healing and tanking.

    Also, it bears to note that the only real DPS classes are the hunter and champion. Other classes have "DPS stances", but those stances are not potent enough to make them "DPS classes" under any circumstances, solo or in a group.

    I really think you don't fully appreciate what the captain brings to the table already. My advice for you would be to play a few other classes and see that all of them have deficiencies, in both solo and group play. Maybe look at the hunter and champion. Their DPS comes at a cost - that cost is lower survivability. They have a focused role of DPS with no other viable functions, and while they are the best at what they do, DPS is pretty much all they can do.

    And also, my statements were not contradictory. You consider the fact that he cannot solo as well as other classes an imbalance - I do not. I am happy enough with my captain that I do not think he needs more DPS. It's as simple as that. When I mentioned "It would take much more than what you're suggesting to increase his solo capability", that was actually directed specifically at you. You've posted about how your changes would affect both PvP and PvE, but in the end, it comes down to PvP for you. I wish you would just state that instead of trying to make it about PvE as well. The captain doesn't need anything more for PvE. His DPS is perfectly sufficient to make it through all solo content without any problems, and I had great fun taking him through it almost all of the time. Other captains I've talked to in game have agreed with me. Sure, we would like to have more DPS, but in the end, DPS is not what we're about.

    To the devs if they read this post - to offer a second opinion, I am happy with the class as it stands now, and so are other captains I've played with. If you do decide to give more to the class, please don't give it to them for solo content - increase their support skills! That's what the class is for and it's what makes it fun to play.

    Also to Almagnus1: Two captains are still helpful in a raid! That opens up the ability for both telling mark and revealing mark, two separate fellowship brother buffs, and also two different banners down.

    But in the end, I respect the concept of a solo stance like what other classes have. I don't really feel my captain needs it, but other classes do have it, so I suppose in the spirit of fairness it should at least be considered.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    **long rant**
    **looks at poster's sig**

    **Notices the captain is level 70**

    Come back when you're 85 and talk to us about captains then.

    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    Also to Almagnus1: Two captains are still helpful in a raid! That opens up the ability for both telling mark and revealing mark, two separate fellowship brother buffs, and also two different banners down.
    What about the third, fourth, fifth?

    One per fellow has been standard for a very long time. The third captain in a raid (or fifth if we're talking about a full raid) does not bring enough to the raid to justify their spot.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  18. #18
    Actually, my level is higher than 70, the sigs haven't been updating for a while now. Regardless, that really doesn't matter, as my opinion is just as valid as yours. Armitas took the time to make a well-written and well-intended thread with valid points and also conveys his opinions respectfully, and your elitism just devalues that.

    I do see your point about third, fourth, and fifth captains. I don't really run raids much beyond 12. After a certain number of captains (2, really), the support does become considerably less useful.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    Actually, my level is higher than 70, the sigs haven't been updating for a while now. Regardless, that really doesn't matter, as my opinion is just as valid as yours. Armitas took the time to make a well-written and well-intended thread with valid points and also conveys his opinions respectfully, and your elitism just devalues that.
    There's stuff you learn about how raids work, and group compilation that isn't exactly obvious that you cannot learn until you've done it a few times.

    Most of the problems with the class (real and perceived) stem from so many people pointing at the support/healing abilities of the class, then saying we can't have our DPS buff because we'd be OP. Following that, if anyone tries to propose a series of tradeoffs, the other argument that raids would just devolve into a group of captains is throw at us.

    I've seen that exact same argument enough times that I'm starting to lose my patience (and courtesy) towards all who make it. I've yet to see actual reasoned out logic why this would happen, especially if a trait (as Armitas had suggested) would go miles towards solving the issues that increasing captains beyond 1/fellow would solve.

    But the real bottom line here - if Turbine decides to give us more DPS without forcing tradeoffs in other areas, then the DPS increase wasn't OP to begin with, but necessary. Seeing how we're at the very bottom of the DPS ladder YET AGAIN, and the advice you so disrespectfully put out there of "go play another class" doesn't help the situation.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  20. #20
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    Although I don't like 100% of what you want, fundamentally I am with you.
    I've got a level 85 2nd age emblem and weapon, tier 9 relics and 3 crystals on each. I have 3/6 ettenmoors 85 set and all of the hytbold armour. My jewellery is pretty decent (level 80-85) and every day I solo I get ripped to shreds. In a group i'm good but truly as a solo captain I'm junk. And I'm pretty sure it's not to do with my playing ability - before RoR I would only ever solo or duo as i felt that if i grouped with more than one other person the advantage would be too much in my favour.
    Now I use everything, coffee, food, hope, scrolls and if I'm fighting the wrong class I'm screwed. Sure, I don't expect to take down a defiler and a high ranked warleader SHOULD be a problem, but when a relatively low ranked Reaver (r6 or so) can slaughter me in a matter of seconds while i struggle to make a dent in his 25k+ morale.. It's not right.
    Dps is needed, it's not the only solution but I think it's the simplest and probably the most effective.
    Perhaps we just haven't caught up with creep audacity yet and a new instance pack will bring us armour that will balance things out? But certainly for now almost all captains on my server are feeling the solo struggle. Our PvP experienced is reduced to group, raid and peak times only.
    Your suggestions would help immensely.
    Evernight:
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    Snowbourn:
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post

    I really think you don't fully appreciate what the captain brings to the table already.
    Just a piece of friendly advice. Both Armitas and Maley have been around for a rather long time. Check the join dates of the folks you are having this discussion with and compare them to yours. Both are very aware of capabilities of the Captain class and have been active particpants in the class discussions for years. They bring well thought out ideas, gear opinions and skill evaluations. They support them with numbers and facts.

    I have been reading their, aswell as many others who post in the Captains forums, advice for years. Trust me, they know what they are talking about.

    You will find that the Captain forums are most likely the most civil and constructive of the class forums. Sure they can get a bit snarky sometimes, we all have our moments, but not nearly the Waa Waa Waa you may find on sat the Hunter forum.

    Your opinions are valued here, please keep them coming, just don't suggest someone else doesn't know what they are talking. about
    Gungus - Captain

  22. #22
    Please do not misunderstand. I never meant to imply that they didn't know much about the captain class - I know that they do. That's why I chose to use the word appreciate - I do not know how much either of them have played other classes besides the captain to see the deficiencies of those classes, and to see that such deficiencies are necessary for balance. What defines balance, of course, comes down largely to perspective and opinion.

    And also, I do enjoy reading the posts of experienced (and inexperienced) captains here - I haven't seen much posting from Almagnus1, but I do see regular posting from Armitas, and I always like reading what he says.

    I will say honestly - I do not care much for PvP, nor do I have as much experience with it as others here. If this thread had only been about PvP, I would not have posted here. But Armitas is making an application to PvE, and also to raids, both of which I do have experience with. 95% of my gameplay experience is with skirms and instances, from solo to 12-man, and they're really the only things that keep me playing after Level 20.

    I'm not going to get into a debate with cold hard numbers about the captain's DPS. Any captain who groups regularly knows that they are doing less damage than the others in the group. Whether or not that is acceptable to the player is strictly a matter of opinion. My opinion is that I'm content doing less damage all of the time (solo and group) when I consider what he brings to a group. I consider DPS a role just like anything else, and not something that every class needs a lot of. I'm content with him feeling like a group class. Just like I'm content with the warden feeling like a solo class. But I truly respect the opinions of others who want more from their captains.

    I will not sit here and say that if they give the captain more DPS, we would all devolve into a group of captains - to me, that is a baseless argument. But I will say that if the captain were given more DPS, it would make him feel less unique, and would slightly devalue his support rule. But again, that is strictly my opinion. And also, I know that the devs will not give more DPS to the captain (solo or group) without taking it from something else, and I don't want to see that happen on my captain.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkit View Post
    Although I don't like 100% of what you want, fundamentally I am with you.
    I've got a level 85 2nd age emblem and weapon, tier 9 relics and 3 crystals on each. I have 3/6 ettenmoors 85 set and all of the hytbold armour. My jewellery is pretty decent (level 80-85) and every day I solo I get ripped to shreds. In a group i'm good but truly as a solo captain I'm junk. And I'm pretty sure it's not to do with my playing ability - before RoR I would only ever solo or duo as i felt that if i grouped with more than one other person the advantage would be too much in my favour.
    Now I use everything, coffee, food, hope, scrolls and if I'm fighting the wrong class I'm screwed. Sure, I don't expect to take down a defiler and a high ranked warleader SHOULD be a problem, but when a relatively low ranked Reaver (r6 or so) can slaughter me in a matter of seconds while i struggle to make a dent in his 25k+ morale.. It's not right.
    Dps is needed, it's not the only solution but I think it's the simplest and probably the most effective.
    Perhaps we just haven't caught up with creep audacity yet and a new instance pack will bring us armour that will balance things out? But certainly for now almost all captains on my server are feeling the solo struggle. Our PvP experienced is reduced to group, raid and peak times only.
    Your suggestions would help immensely.
    I expect you're only talking about PvMP and not about soloing in PvE.

    I may be the only one with this idea of PvMP, but I have never, absolutely never, really seen it as a place for soloing. Sure, there's some solo quests and you might run in a 1vs1 once in a while, but in general I see it as a place for doing group vs group fights.

    Now IF that's the same view Devs have on PvMP (and I expect it to be), that would explain why Captains don't have a skillset/setup for really boosting solo capabilities and make your problems with soloing defilers or WLs pretty much irrelevant, at least to the Devs.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    I will say honestly - I do not care much for PvP, nor do I have as much experience with it as others here. If this thread had only been about PvP, I would not have posted here. But Armitas is making an application to PvE, and also to raids, both of which I do have experience with. 95% of my gameplay experience is with skirms and instances, from solo to 12-man, and they're really the only things that keep me playing after Level 20.
    Sometimes changes that are intended for PvMP and impact PvE must be made to the class.

    We are targets solo. Anything and everything can run away from us in the moors, and we can't kill ANYTHING solo out there - at least, not fast enough to make soloing in the 'Moors interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by SentinelBasch View Post
    I consider DPS a role just like anything else, and not something that every class needs a lot of.
    What's going on with the other classes contradict this:
    Champs, RKs, Burgs, Hunters - do we need to say any more?
    LMs AE damage is on par with the others (or at least, last I checked)
    Mini's have War-Speech
    Guardians have Overpower
    Wardens got ranged and melee DPS in U7 or U8.

    And we have LtC, which is (at best) half of any of the above. Our personal DPS is utterly pathetic, and the argument that it should stay low because of all we bring to the group - especially when this suggestion is about sacrificing all that FOR damage - is laughably bad.

    Minis buffing ability will run circles around ours. We only have War-Cry, Strength of Will, To Arms, IDoME, Motivating Speech, Tactics: Relentless Attack, Tactic: On Guard, Tactics: Focus, and Duty-Bound. That's not enough buffing skills to fill up a skill rotation in combat.

    And if you want to dig into the mini claim, you can check out http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Minstrel_Skills

    So really, what do we bring to the group that the other classes can't do better?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Our personal DPS is utterly pathetic, and the argument that it should stay low because of all we bring to the group - especially when this suggestion is about sacrificing all that FOR damage - is laughably bad.
    Well, clearly the only important opinions to you are yours and those that agree with yours, so there's really not much point in sharing mine with you. I haven't played the game as long as you have, so I don't know much about anything. I will say this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    We only have War-Cry, Strength of Will, To Arms, IDoME, Motivating Speech, Tactics: Relentless Attack, Tactic: On Guard, Tactics: Focus, and Duty-Bound. That's not enough buffing skills to fill up a skill rotation in combat...So really, what do we bring to the group that the other classes can't do better?
    Well, there's also Oathbreaker's Shame, which does have its uses, and the marking skills, along with morale and power healing which is useful when it comes. He's also an effective tank in smaller groups. To me, all of that is worth sacrificing DPS over. I'm not the only captain who feels that way. I'm sorry that you don't respect that opinion, because I do respect yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Sometimes changes that are intended for PvMP and impact PvE must be made to the class.

    We are targets solo. Anything and everything can run away from us in the moors, and we can't kill ANYTHING solo out there - at least, not fast enough to make soloing in the 'Moors interesting.
    And we're right back to PvP, which is what this thread is really about. Since I don't have much interest or experience with that, I'm going to bow out now. I hope you all find the balance in the captain class that you're looking for so that you enjoy the class as much as I do. PvP is as real a part of the game as anything else, and you deserve to have fun with it. Good luck.
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