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  1. #1

    Why don't people use the instance finder?

    The instance finder seems like a pretty well designed tool. Why does it seem like most people ignore it?
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  2. #2
    For matching random groups, it's a chicken-and-egg scenario.

    A large number of players won't use it until it has reasonable queue times and matches sensible group combinations.

    Queue times won't be reasonable and it won't match sensible group combinations until a large number of players use it.

    This vicious cycle could be short-circuited by introducing a ridiculously good bonus reward for random groups. But over time, that reward would have to be reduced. At some point, players would feel like they're having something taken away from them, and no one likes that feeling.

  3. #3
    I see what you're saying, but it's not like it takes a lot to buy in. Takes like 2 seconds to que up. Then just let it run while you quest or do whatever. So even if it takes a long time, it's not costing you anything.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    For matching random groups, it's a chicken-and-egg scenario.

    A large number of players won't use it until it has reasonable queue times and matches sensible group combinations.

    Queue times won't be reasonable and it won't match sensible group combinations until a large number of players use it.

    This vicious cycle could be short-circuited by introducing a ridiculously good bonus reward for random groups. But over time, that reward would have to be reduced. At some point, players would feel like they're having something taken away from them, and no one likes that feeling.
    A number of players pointed out the rewards should have been reversed prior to its initial live-deployment.
    It does now, match sensible group combinations. They did at least, glean that much data for it (at least for Pre-Erebor content) before it fell into disuse.
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  5. #5
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    When it initially launched, it included "incentives" to be willing to accept random instances (mostly skirmishes). At the same time, the completion bonuses for skirmishes were subject to a major reduction. This combination didn't set well with a lot of people. Many people weren't looking for a *random* instance to do. They wanted a particular instance or--at the very least--to eliminate ones they didn't like from the selection list. As a result, those wanting a particular instance didn't get the finders "incentives", either, but still had to put up with the reduction in completion bonuses.

    All in all, the initial launch was pretty dismal and, so far as I can tell, most people gave up on using it. With the later merger of selection capability that the previous join panel had, the habit of pre-forming groups and only *then* using the finder continued.

  6. #6
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    Interesting thread. Reading the responses so far, I am getting the impression that no-one actually knows why it doesn't work, but a few reasonable hypotheses have been suggested. My own theory would be: because it creates groups, not teams. Anyone with experience of Pick-up groups (pugs) learns they have a heartbreakingly low chance of managing anything serious. In practice, things like Bugud are great for informal pugging. Anything more challenging than that and it's : " do ya feel lucky, punk? Well, punk, do ya?"

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by wachkussen View Post
    My own theory would be: because it creates groups, not teams. Anyone with experience of Pick-up groups (pugs) learns they have a heartbreakingly low chance of managing anything serious.
    IOW, "PUGs suck": that, in a nutshell is the real cause why most don't use it, only the kinless and those in small 'social' kins that have to resort to grouping with 'strangers' will try to use it, everyone else mostly plays this game with kinnies only.

    Blizzard have tried to deal with this with their LFR tool and scaling instances for several 'tiers' of difficulty, Turbine OTOH haven't and most 6 and all 12-man content is largely PUG-hostile, except when exploits allow for ezmode farming until Turbine close the loophole.

    World content like Bugud isn't really the same thing, there's no need to 'group up' to do it with open tapping; without open-tapping you'd see what WOW has, with guilds/kins competing for the 'claim', even for that content PUGs would rarely, if ever get formed.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    ...
    All in all, the initial launch was pretty dismal and, so far as I can tell, most people gave up on using it. With the later merger of selection capability that the previous join panel had, the habit of pre-forming groups and only *then* using the finder continued.
    ...Reinforcing the stated purpose of the tool as an Instance finder, not a Group finder.

    That fits with my own observations as well.

    And yeah, I agree, PUG's don't suck in and of themselves. The first time I tried Watcher was in a PUG, (average level was 68) and while 3/4 of the group was learning the instance (myself included), we did end up beating it after about 8 tries...
    Last edited by LotRO-Chris; May 03 2013 at 08:20 PM.

  9. #9
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    IF does not work as it could - to actually benefit the players and speed up group formation.

    1- We must see groups being formed, inspect each and every player in the group - NO ANONYMOUS

    2- When we put a search/ group formation we should have a place to describe what we are looking for.

    3- The bonus should apply to all loot: +50 currency and +50% drop chance.

    We already have in LOTRO 2 things that work as IF should work- LFF in social panel actually shows what players in the area are looking for help in quests, sortable by quests and classes/levels. And AH, that has been working fine for years,

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    .....by introducing a ridiculously good bonus reward for random groups......
    Why don't they use additional seals as an incentive, as you have to grind these to get 1st age stuff, unless you are lucky to get a symbol drop from raid. So the more random instance the more seals you get say 10 seals, but if its specific instance you are after you get 3 additional seals, this way more people will use for seal grinding and everyone will be happy.

    Also no additional seals if you have a group or part group say above 3 using the instance finder to stop abuse of the system.

  11. #11
    One facet that I feel hasn't been touched upon enough is that the population is divided over a level spread that means the chance of finding fellowships using the instance finder within a reasonable amount of time is small. In kinchat the question gets asked if the instance finder ever becomes usable and I have to say that it becomes more useful as the level approaches 85.

    I keep a few characters at specific levels to help out with kinsmen but sometimes finding a third takes too long and we bring in a higher level without armor and wielding a butterknife/low level weapon (would much rather that high levels would get scaled down and open up the level restrictions in the instance finder).
    Last edited by WhimsicalPacifist; Jun 28 2013 at 03:12 PM.
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  12. #12
    If it isn't meant for putting together groups then why pray tell would it require one to choose roles? Just admit turbine failed at their intended vision, but succeeded in creating a decent enough tool that still had enough value to leave in game.

    The pedantic hoops some people jump through to justify that which really needs no justification is amusing.

  13. #13
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    It simply can't be used to form PUG what can finish randomly picked 6-man instance. Sure trollbine has done much to that it could be possible, I don't remember what patch it was when they did huge nerf and most of the 6-man and 3-man instances are now possible to finish almost all kind of groups. Example when SG was scaled to lvl85, tier 2 was HARD, it was harder than it never was at lvl65. At lvl65 we did SG challenge with 4 hunters, RK and cappy. One hunter was "Tanking". After scale I had some memories from SG and I was thinking that "I take my warden, go in and see what happens". Well I did and even with DC, NS etc... I was dead in under 30sec. After nerf I went again in and did solo it to 1st boss and took him down to 50k or something not sure. Anyway I did live quite some time even when whole room was in fire. Another good example of huge nerf is when we 3-manned (warden, champ and cappy) 12-man skirmish. Anyway my point is that there IS instances where you don't need healer, there IS instances where you don't need tank, there is instances where you don't need neighter and there IS instances where you need one of them or both of them or it will be too hard for PUG's. So even that most of the instances are joke (way too easy even with challenge) there still is few instances what requires working group. And sorry that I haven't used line changes, for some reason "enter" is not working on this forum with my IE10, dunno if it's just me or all IE10 issue.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by a99barnsey View Post
    The instance finder seems like a pretty well designed tool. Why does it seem like most people ignore it?
    In its initial offering there were some major flaws. Notably it didn't respect your ignore list, so you were subject to players you may never have wanted to encounter again

    It has still some fatal flaws two notable ones: 1. It doesn't promote random groups, it incentivizes running random content instead. 2. It doesnt do Raid-Sized content.

    Players who take a brief vacation to other worlds tell me that it seems to get a lot of use in the 20s-50s, but that it tapers off after that. Probably because it also can't be used to queue for non-scaling content (Isengard/Moria/Angmar).

    I vastly preferred DDO's LFF panel to this implementation. I'm hoping someday a developer decides its worth porting over-here in their spare time.

    I'd happily Pug Raids with it or other content for the purpose of meeting NEW PLAYERS to group with and introduce to content all day if people actually used it for that at level-cap, but I can't be bothered to sit in the queue for hours, feeling alone on a HEALER no less. It's depressing enough to try and Pug content using GLFF at times where you can actually interact with the folk who might be interested.
    Last edited by Crell_1; May 02 2013 at 12:13 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    I vastly preferred DDO's LFF panel to this implementation. I'm hoping someday a developer decides its worth porting over-here in their spare time.
    Oddly enough, LOTRO has had an LFF panel like DDO's since the beginning. Open the social panel, second tab at the bottom (Open Fellowships) opens the LFP Want Ad screen. You can create your own group, or join an open group. You can specify the level range and classes of players you are looking for. You can pick the quest from the dropdown or add a comment for the instance you want to do. It is a server-wide ad, not regional.

    The difference is that in DDO Turbine continued to improve upon the grouping tool to make it as good as it is today. In LOTRO, they haven't touched it since launch. It just stays hidden at the bottom of the social panel where nobody notices it. They later added "Find a Fellowship" functionality to the quest log to flag yourself for a specific quest. But that went over about as well as the Instance Finder. So now we have 3 group finding tools in LOTRO that nobody uses.

  16. #16
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    Grimdi pointed this out a bit, and others have mentioned the horrific first implementation and other mechanical problems, but just to clarify what the failure was (is) at the high level:

    MMO players do not need help finding an instance. They already know what they want to run. MMO players need help finding groups for specific content. And yet here we are with an "instance" finder.

    Those of us who remember the version 1 implementation will also remember WB-Turbine's official response to the huge backlash on the forums: It was working as intended. This is what Turbine wanted--to "encourage" players to try more group content outside their preferred farms via randomized content; other features like better grouping class tools and whatever would be added later. But this is definitely not what players wanted at all. It was both unusable and insulting, especially since WB-T decided to nerf the regular rewards as "encouragement" to use the random IF.

    So at least some of us who had played since that time and loathed v1 will always view the IF negatively for what it stood for: WB-Turbine's disconnection from LotRO players. And a bass-ackwards implementation.

    As for now, I use it only in pre-made groups and pick a specific skirmish/whatever to run, as a replacement for the old Instance Join.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by a99barnsey View Post
    The instance finder seems like a pretty well designed tool. Why does it seem like most people ignore it?
    It is only well-designed for it's intended goal: create a random goup to run random content. It's not used because that goal is not what most people want. They want an effective group to run specific content (with effective I don't mean speed-runs, just a setup that can handle the selected content without major problems). The instance finder is not capable of achieving that goal other then by pure luck or with at least partially preformed groups.
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  18. #18
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    Habit, and impatience myself. I mostly find groups by asking in my kin channel in any case, as that is my preference and gives a higher success probability anyway. That said, I am fine doing pugs, and sometimes join ones folks announce in glff. I don't like queuing up as it takes a long time, and I feel like I'm "on hold" while waiting. If there were some way to see what groups are trying to be formed (rather than just joining the queue) it might give me more incentive

  19. #19
    I've enjoyed the IF on the infrequent occasions when it finds a match for me.

    When I don't queue up on the IF, the reasons are:

    1) I don't have much play time
    2) I'm working on some goal that I don't want to interrupt

    I don't mind PUGs, whether the players are any good or not. I don't much care about the content rewards. The main thing the IF gives me is a change of pace from playing solo. Too bad there's so rarely anyone in the queue.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by a99barnsey View Post
    The instance finder seems like a pretty well designed tool. Why does it seem like most people ignore it?
    I use it pretty religiously. For the friendless, kinless people like myself, I find it a great way to meet new folks. It takes such little time to join the queue, I generally do it as soon as I log on. I forget to choose a stance more often than I forget to use the instance finder.

    Why don't people use it? I would assume they already have their kin, and they feel those are the people that they group with exclusively.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by a99barnsey View Post
    The instance finder seems like a pretty well designed tool.
    Well, it is not. The flaws far outnumber the advantages.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by a99barnsey View Post
    Why does it seem like most people ignore it?
    The answer is pretty simple if you ask yourself the following questions, which sadly the developers never bothered with before they spent the time and resources into this thing.

    How often do you get hungry and then decide to go to a RANDOM restaurant, or do you get something you actually crave or feel like?
    How often do you go to the movie theatre and decide to see a RANDOM movie, or do you look at whats being offered and choose one?
    How often do you decide to take your spouse and kids to a RANDOM amusement parks, or do you consider cost and time and distance?
    How often do you go to the store and buy a RANDOM computer game, or do you look at the shelves and pick one?

    Turbine had lost this battle before the war had even begun, but yet they insisted on fighting it.

    People wanted a way to find teammates for THEIR CHOSEN instances, but instead Turbine used the opportunity to try to force people to run the less-run content to boost the stats for those instances. They took away the old daily reward and insulted people by saying it is now available if they let the tool pick a random map. Add to it that it came out buggy, with extreme long wait time, had a host of problems at the beginning like matching you with people on your ignore list, it is no surprise that people tried it and never look back again. But I can still remember the "fans" screaming "oh don't knock it until you have given it a try" even though all those problems and more had been pointed out and people begged Turbine to spend their valueable development time on something else.

    It always made me wonder what else turbine could have made instead for the community if they hadn't wasted their time and resources into this thing.
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  23. #23
    I'm amazed how many people are still locked into the "PUGs suck" mindset. I'm in one of the largest Kins on my server, but I often play in PUGs and I'd say that about 95% of them are successful. If you call that a "heartbreakingly low chance" of success then you must live a very disappointed life.

    The only place where PUGs usually struggle are in the most difficult instances, like T2C runs, or sometimes in less difficult instances that have a lot of different mechanics in play. More often than not, I find that the single factor that most influences a PUGs chance of success is how experienced the "leader" of the PUG is. As long as the content is familiar to someone who can clearly communicate what to do and when to do it then you're usually in good shape. In fact, the only PUGs that I've been in recently that weren't successful were back when the Erebor cluster first came out and people were still working out the mechanics of them, or in a recent run at Fires of Smaug T2C (an admittedly difficult instance).

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmcferrin View Post
    I'm amazed how many people are still locked into the "PUGs suck" mindset. I'm in one of the largest Kins on my server, but I often play in PUGs and I'd say that about 95% of them are successful. If you call that a "heartbreakingly low chance" of success then you must live a very disappointed life.
    I agree with this, particularly for easier fights. e.g. I can take literally any 2 people through School/Lib with my Capt and, if they don't kill a bird or something, we'll succeed. And PUGs are for the most part quite fun for me, though I prefer kin runs even for easy things just for the social aspect.

  25. #25
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    I for one use it a lot

 

 
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