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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    I think I did mistunderstand you there, then and I appologize. Let me say that I am all for the Giant War-goats being a teensy bit 'magical' too. What magical qualities would you expect of the Giant War-goats? Sounds like we just need to flesh the idea out a little more to get you and the other stragglers on board with this.
    You seem to have misunderstood all right, to the point of ignoring the rest of what I've said. You don't have any real 'idea', you just have this 'and goats too' thing going on. And never mind what makes the horses and ponies special, or that it fits naturally with the Rohirrim being consummate riders, cavalrymen and horse-breeders, whereas Dwarves (as I said before) weren't that keen on riding and habitually fought on foot. There's no logical basis for making war-goats as good as the best horses the Horse-lords possess.

    Well, there is a first time for everyone. My first time falling in love with the Giant Goat mounts is slightly different than your first time -- I first encounted them in LoTRO. I think the first one I got was the Ale Association Goat mount. What makes them more sensible than pit-poines? Well, it certainly can be my anti-pony bias showing, but, as I stated previously, I think that they are just fantastical enough to make them sought-after without going too far in the direction of absurd. Pit-ponies would be just "meh" -- I couldn't envision receiving a pit-pony as a reward from dwarven (or elven) factions like the superior Giant Goat mounts are presently.
    I think you're missing the point. They're tolerable as ordinary mounts (they have no place in Middle-earth but we can put up with them for the sake of variety, since that seems to keep Joe Gamer happy), but wanting to make them the equal of Rohirrim war-horses is really crossing the line. There's too much story associated with Rohan, the Horse-lords and the mearas to just come up with a cheap knock-off and apply it to goats as well.

    Well, laughing would not be a bad result at all! But I will agree that "tremendous" is a matter of opinion, so let us call it just plain "success" so that we can at least remove this one point of contention.
    You can call it what you like, I'm calling it FAIL just like every other thread on the subject to date because they all ignore what it is that's supposed to be making the war-horses special.

    I don't think reality take sides, it just is. We are all free to embrace it or not -- same for logic, either you choose to follow according to it or not.
    Yes, reality just *is*, and the current state of in-game 'reality' has the goats as no more than ordinary mounts so you can't claim it favours you in particular. As for logic, yours fails because you've oversimplified the issue.
    Last edited by Radhruin_EU; May 03 2013 at 11:23 AM.

  2. #127
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    (Re: What color is the sky on your planet?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Hmmm.. trick question?
    More like rhetorical question. I will go with the charitable explanation of your response that you are unfamiliar with the idiom.

  3. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    You seem to have misunderstood all right, to the point of ignoring the rest of what I've said. You don't have any real 'idea', you just have this 'and goats too' thing going on. And never mind what makes the horses and ponies special, or that it fits naturally with the Rohirrim being consummate riders, cavalrymen and horse-breeders, whereas Dwarves (as I said before) weren't that keen on riding and habitually fought on foot. There's no logical basis for making war-goats as good as the best horses the Horse-lords possess.

    I think focusing solely on the horses and ponies is short-sighted on your part and that is preventing you from getting on board with the Giant War-goats. You'll need to at least allow for this Giant War-goat option in order to appear reasonable here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I think you're missing the point. They're tolerable as ordinary mounts (they have no place in Middle-earth but we can put up with them for the sake of variety, since that seems to keep Joe Gamer happy), but wanting to make them the equal of Rohirrim war-horses is really crossing the line. There's too much story associated with Rohan, the Horse-lords and the mearas to just come up with a cheap knock-off and apply it to goats as well.

    Well, if nothing else, you'll be able to "tolerate" the logical addition of the Giant War-goats just as you say you tolerate the current Giant Goat mounts which have been a part of this game for years now. As I stated previously, there are plenty of things in the game that I merely tolerate, but I recognize that other players may indeed enjoy them -- so I know exactly where you are coming from here. You may not enjoy the addition of Giant War-goats when they first come out, but they'll definitely grow on you just as the current Giant Goat mounts have already taken a place in the hearts of many players gradually over the years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    You can call it what you like, I'm calling it FAIL just like every other thread on the subject to date because they all ignore what it is that's supposed to be making the war-horses special.

    Well, this is just a matter of opinion then -- I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the magnitude of success.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Yes, reality just *is*, and the current state of in-game 'reality' has the goats as no more than ordinary mounts so you can't claim it favours you in particular. As for logic, yours fails because you've oversimplified the issue.

    Well, what color is the sky on *your* planet? (I get it now, whhedyt)
    Perhaps you are over-thinking this here -- Have you heard of K.I.S.S. (no, not the rock band)?
    But at least you are not denying the existing of the currently available Giant Goat mounts in this game -- that is a HUGE step in the right direction, as far as I am concerned, and I think you'll be getting on board soon.


    I think we should all use this weekend to visualize the details of a Giant War-goat implementation. And come back to this thread on Monday to share our vision. I think this would help re-focus this thread and keep the momentum moving in the right direction.

  4. #129
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    This thread is one of the funniest I've ever read on these forums.

    I almost want to give the OP +rep because: Never in the field of human trolling was so much done to so many by so few (well, one actually, but it didn't really work with that).
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  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Tuco, if that is what it takes to get you on board... welcome aboard! The main point has always been to remind Turbine that they forgot to give us the logical, much-anticipated option to use the Giant Goats when participating in the mounted combat mechanic. I don't think any of us reality-embracing champions of Turbine's Giant Goat mounts, would mind if they are refered to as Giant War-goats in the context of mounted combat.





    I have followed according to your advice and I will now unequivocally admit that the logical addition of the Giant War-goats is appealing to me and I do now have the confidence to say that I do really want to have a Giant War-goat. Let me ask you -- what kind of attributes would expect of the Giant War-goats if they were implemented in a way that was acceptable to you? Definitely open to anyone's ideas on this, so please feel free to chime in with your 2 cents.





    I think I did mistunderstand you there, then and I appologize. Let me say that I am all for the Giant War-goats being a teensy bit 'magical' too. What magical qualities would you expect of the Giant War-goats? Sounds like we just need to flesh the idea out a little more to get you and the other stragglers on board with this.





    Well, there is a first time for everyone. My first time falling in love with the Giant Goat mounts is slightly different than your first time -- I first encounted them in LoTRO. I think the first one I got was the Ale Association Goat mount. What makes them more sensible than pit-poines? Well, it certainly can be my anti-pony bias showing, but, as I stated previously, I think that they are just fantastical enough to make them sought-after without going too far in the direction of absurd. Pit-ponies would be just "meh" -- I couldn't envision receiving a pit-pony as a reward from dwarven (or elven) factions like the superior Giant Goat mounts are presently.





    Well, laughing would not be a bad result at all! But I will agree that "tremendous" is a matter of opinion, so let us call it just plain "success" so that we can at least remove this one point of contention.





    I don't think reality take sides, it just is. We are all free to embrace it or not -- same for logic, either you choose to follow according to it or not.





    Hmmm.. trick question?
    The problem with your position is that you keep claiming to be the only one who is being at all logical about this discussion. And, you need to go find what the definition of an olive branch is...

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/olive+branch?s=t

    However, every time you respond with the absurd idea that your idea is somehow logical and everyone else isn't.

    The idea of War-goats is, perhaps, a natural extension of already having goats... until you do a little research and find out that there just is no place in the Tolkien lore or current game lore for them.

    Just saying... you need a lot of work on your olive branches. But, the real victory here was getting you to admit that you just want war-goats regardless of whether or not they meet any kind of actual lore or logic. Good game!
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  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    -There's no logical basis for making war-goats as good as the best horses the Horse-lords possess.
    If you're referring to the War-steeds the PCs can get their hands on... they're not the "best horses the Horse-lords possess." Related to them, yes. But then, a whippet's related to a wolf, too.
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  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daeross View Post
    If you're referring to the War-steeds the PCs can get their hands on... they're not the "best horses the Horse-lords possess." Related to them, yes. But then, a whippet's related to a wolf, too.
    No, mate, because the Horse-lords didn't own the mearas. Those had to gave their consent to be ridden, and then only by the Lord of the Mark and his sons (and a certain Wizard, of course). So, the war-horses would be the best horses the Rohirrim could actually call their own and which could be ridden by just anyone.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBS View Post
    This thread is one of the funniest I've ever read on these forums.

    I almost want to give the OP +rep because: Never in the field of human trolling was so much done to so many by so few (well, one actually, but it didn't really work with that).
    Thank you Mr. Churchill.

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  9. #134
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    Reading any of these threads, I have to try to distinguish in my mind whether any poster is talking about the Helm's Deep expansion, which is going to cover either all of or an awful lot of the Westemnet, or the Battle of Helm's Deep, more properly called the Battle of the Hornburg, the fortress at the far end of the Deep which, it was said, had never been taken so long as men defended it.

    Because if the latter, there will not only be no war-goats there, there will be no war-horses there. There isn't *room* to fight on horseback inside that fortress, or in the Deep itself. I quote:

    Still some miles away, on the far side of the Westfold Vale, lay a green coomb, a great bay in the mountains, out of which a gorge opened in the hills. Men of that land called it Helm's Deep, after a hero of old wars who had made his refuge there. Ever steeper and narrower it wound inward from the north under the shadow of the Thrihyrne, till the crowhaunted cliffs rose like mighty towers on either side, shutting out the light.

    At Helm's Gate, before the mouth of the deep, there was a heel of rock thrust outward by the northern cliff. There upon its spur stood high walls of ancient stone, and within them was a lofty tower. Men said that in the far-off days of the glory of Gondor the sea-kings had built here this fastness with the hands of giants. The Hornburg it was called, for a trumpet sounded upon the tower echoed in the Deep behind, as if armies long-forgotten were issuing to war from caves beneath the hills. A wall, too, the men of old had made from the Hornburg to the southern cliff, barring the entrance to the gorge. Beneath it by a wide culvert the Deeping Stream passed out. About the feet of the Hornrock it wound, and flowed then in a gully through the midst of a wide green gore, sloping gently down from Helm's Gate to Helm's Dike. ... There in the Hornburg at Helm's Gate Erkenbrand, master of Westfold on the borders of the Mark, now dwelt. As the days darkened with threat of war, being wise, he had repaired the wall and made the fastness strong.
    That is the shape of the terrain on which this battle will be fought. No room for cavalry charges, whether they whinny or baaa.
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  10. #135
    Now that some of the detractors have gone silent, let's see if we can flesh out our Giant War-goat ideas for Turbine so that when they implement them all concerned parties will be well satisfied with the implementation. Better to get it right the first time rather than having to tweak the Giant War-goats over several updates.


    Quote Originally Posted by WBS View Post
    This thread is one of the funniest I've ever read on these forums.


    I almost want to give the OP +rep because: Never in the field of human trolling was so much done to so many by so few (well, one actually, but it didn't really work with that).

    I want to address this point. I think calling this thread trolling is undervaluing the merit of this thread and, worse, is misconstruing the sincere desire of players to see that the logical implementation of Giant War-goats does indeed come to fruition. All parties here, both those visionaries who have expressed support for the Giant War-goats and those who haven't yet seen the light and have vocalized their doubts, are deserving of praise. And I think it is fair to say that everyone who has posted in this thread, while putting in a good-natured jab every now and again, have nothing but the deepest respect for each other and are very pleased with the OP for getting this thread started. So, don't hesitate when it comes to giving rep to the OP (even if I wasn't the OP, I'd be giving the OP as much rep as I could too, so you're definitely not alone in that inclination.)




    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    The idea of War-goats is, perhaps, a natural extension of already having goats...

    This is one of the better comments I have seen. Although, the comment must be extracted from its context in order to appreciate it, much like a lotus blossoming in the midst of muddy water, you definitely have shown an evolution in your support. While you call it a "natural extension", I have been calling it "logical". But, semantics aside, we are definitively on the same page with this concept. *Passes a fifth flagon of Kool-Aid to TheCrossbow*




    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    Reading any of these threads, I have to try to distinguish in my mind whether any poster is talking about the Helm's Deep expansion, which is going to cover either all of or an awful lot of the Westemnet, or the Battle of Helm's Deep, more properly called the Battle of the Hornburg, the fortress at the far end of the Deep which, it was said, had never been taken so long as men defended it.

    Both the Helm's Deep expansion and the Battle of Helm's Deep are applicable to Giant War-goats. However, the main idea was to help make sure Turbine gets the Giant War-goats added in with the new expansion.


    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    That is the shape of the terrain on which this battle will be fought.

    Excellent point here. These are the kind of details that I think we need more of in order to fully flesh out some ideas for Turbine to use when they add in the Giant War-goats. I think the terrain described, while obviously not suitable to the war ponies that players currently prance around on, are perfect for the agile and sure-footed Giant War-goats. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if we'll be able to, for example, have our Giant War-goats leap from orc head to orc head while we rain down axe blows from above. It is within this type of steep, rocky, and cramped terrain that the superiority of having a Gaint War-goat will be most obvious to those who have expressed some minor doubts in the past. Thank you for bringing this to light. Please folks, we need some more of these types of detailed posts in order to keep the ball rolling. Thanks all for your contributions!

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Now that some of the detractors have gone silent,....
    That could just as easily be inverted. I note that you (the primary advocate of War Goats) let the thread lie fallow for a week before posting.

    ... let's see if we can flesh out our Giant War-goat ideas for Turbine so that when they implement them all concerned parties will be well satisfied with the implementation. Better to get it right the first time rather than having to tweak the Giant War-goats over several updates.
    The only way that this concerned party will be "well satisfied with the implementation" is if they are not implemented at all. The only right way to do this is not to do it.

    Both the Helm's Deep expansion and the Battle of Helm's Deep are applicable to Giant War-goats. However, the main idea was to help make sure Turbine gets the Giant War-goats added in with the new expansion.
    The applicability of the Battle of the Hornburg is that it is unsuited to mounts of any sort, and--therefore--War Goats aren't appropriate there any more than anywhere else, which is to say, they aren't appropriate in LotRO at all.

    Excellent point here. These are the kind of details that I think we need more of in order to fully flesh out some ideas for Turbine to use when they add in the Giant War-goats.
    You are making an unsupported--and unsupportable--assumption that Turbine will be so foolish as to add War Goats. There is no need to flesh out an idea that is not good from the very start. Fleshing it out will not make the idea better. It can only make it uglier than it already is.

    It is within this type of steep, rocky, and cramped terrain that the superiority of having a Gaint War-goat will be most obvious to those who have expressed some minor doubts in the past.
    There is no doubt, minor or otherwise. The objections are major. Rideable goats don't belong in LotRO. That Turbine erred by adding them in no way means that they should compound that error by adding War Goats.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Now that some of the detractors have gone silent
    Or rather that this thread's been dead for a week because nobody but you gave a damn about it, which is damning as far as your claims of popular support go.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    This is one of the better comments I have seen. Although, the comment must be extracted from its context in order to appreciate it, much like a lotus blossoming in the midst of muddy water, you definitely have shown an evolution in your support. While you call it a "natural extension", I have been calling it "logical". But, semantics aside, we are definitively on the same page with this concept. *Passes a fifth flagon of Kool-Aid to TheCrossbow*
    Except... you conveniently leave out the parts where I clearly disagree with all of your claims.
    Until you are willing/able to adequately deal with my solid disagreements AND achieve my requirement that any inclusion of "War goats" be plausible enough to fit both the lore AND the mechanics of the game... and it appears that you are not willing... You will not get me (or any of the others) to agree to your silly claims. We are definitely not at all on the same page...
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  14. #139
    What's the latest on the Giant War Goat front? They still keeping the excitement under wraps or have they released any details regarding this logical implementation with the Helm's Deep expansion? My dwarf is looking forward to saying good bye to that silly war pony and recouping some dignity atop a Giant War Goat.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    What's the latest on the Giant War Goat front? They still keeping the excitement under wraps or have they released any details regarding this logical implementation with the Helm's Deep expansion? My dwarf is looking forward to saying good bye to that silly war pony and recouping some dignity atop a Giant War Goat.
    May I humbly suggest the logical extension of the general Giant War-goat theme to include wings to become a Flying Giant War-goat . After all its just logical, also this would clearly have to be allowed on the 'moors too.
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  16. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarian_Grace View Post
    May I humbly suggest the logical extension of the general Giant War-goat theme to include wings to become a Flying Giant War-goat . After all its just logical, also this would clearly have to be allowed on the 'moors too.
    Well, I wouldn't necessarily call Flying Giant War-goat in the 'moors logical for 2 reasons: 1) the existing Giant Goat mounts do not have wings (nor is there any existing flying mount) and 2) the existing war steeds are not usable in the 'moors so I don't see any reason to expect that the Giant Goat version would be.

    But who knows for certain? Only thing for certain is that the Giant War Goats will be universally appreciated once they are introduced and players have a chance to earn them and switch out their ponies for these.

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    What's the latest on the Giant War Goat front? They still keeping the excitement under wraps or have they released any details regarding this logical implementation with the Helm's Deep expansion? My dwarf is looking forward to saying good bye to that silly war pony and recouping some dignity atop a Giant War Goat.
    There have been no further public statements on what will--or won't--be in the HD expansion.

    There have been--fortunately--no hints that War Goats are even contemplated by Turbine.

    On the assumption that one or more Turbine employees have read this thread and reported back on the opinions expressed in it, the smart money would be that the merest, most fleeting consideration of adding War Goats to LotRO would be laughed out of consideration.

    So...no. You haven't convinced anyone here War Goats are a good idea who didn't come here already wanting them and there is no indication that you have persuaded Turbine, either.

  18. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    There have been no further public statements on what will--or won't--be in the HD expansion.
    OK, thanks. Hopefully, we'll hear some more details about this expansion soon.

    As far as the rest, well, I think that once Giant War Goats are in game, you'll definitely want one at least for your dwarf character (if you have a dwarf), despite your perspective as of today. It is certainly logical, but admittedly, I think this will be a case that you have to experience them in game to really get it. If someone off the street said "hey, what do you think about riding a Giant Goat?" some people might say "sure", but most would think it sounds crazy. Yet, the Giant Goat mounts in LOTRO, especially for dwarf characters, seem as natural as the blue sky.

    So, I think you'll have to see and try the Giant War Goat in game -- merely trying to convince you with words, despite the logic, will probably never work out too well. Some people are early adopters, some are late. Rune-keepers have been quite popular, as have hobbit guards, yet they don't even have logic on their side. So I think the many players hoping for the Giant War Goats have an excellent chance at seeing them with the next expansion and if not, then certainly in a future update.

  19. #144

    War Chickens

    I would really like a giant rooster to fight with as I run through Westemnet in chicken mode. I could claw you, I could peck you, I could scare you awake from slumber with my crow. Maybe I can fly!!! Then other chickens will flock to me. And war goats will ferry my hens to and fro.

    It sounds like the goat thing has been hashed out 10 times already to no avail.

    Perhaps war chickens instead!!! Or at the very least a treasure hunt chicken outfit for a horse!!!

    Just ideas. Blast away. Pew pew.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    OK, thanks. Hopefully, we'll hear some more details about this expansion soon.
    There are several threads on the topic in this particular Forum section. You might not have read them because none of them includes the word "Goat" in the title.

    As far as the rest, well, I think that once Giant War Goats are in game, you'll definitely want one at least for your dwarf character (if you have a dwarf), despite your perspective as of today.
    I have several Dwarf characters. None of them has ever bought a goat. None of them have ever ridden a goat other than on Moria stable routes...and when they do my only reaction is that Turbine should never have used goats for mounts.

    None of my characters (Dwarf or not) would buy a War Goat even if Turbine was foolish enough to add them to the game.

    (And for those watching at home who remember the claims of PJ fans that I would see the Hobbit films in spite of my distaste for what Jackson did to LotR...I haven't. That prediction has failed. So will the OPs with regard to goats should War Goats come to pass (/shudder).)

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by podgie_bear View Post
    And mounted combat for Dwarves and Hobbits isn't?
    Dwarves and Hobbits ride ponies, in the books. The only trouble Gimli had with the horse of Rohan is that it was so damned high up.

    Turbine should have put sure-footed mules into Moria, not goats. Too late now.
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  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    Dwarves and Hobbits ride ponies, in the books. The only trouble Gimli had with the horse of Rohan is that it was so damned high up.

    Turbine should have put sure-footed mules into Moria, not goats. Too late now.
    My main, a dwarf does not ride goats. On occasion he has ridden a horned hill pony.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    I won't and I don't even want to *see* one, and that would be outside of my control.

    Goats were a mistake from their very first appearance. Turbine should have used mules in Moria.
    Goats are original and good idea, so you HAVE TO get over it.

    Back to topic.
    War-goats are very good idea because war-steeds are ugly, ugly and ugly.
    And is lore-friendly yelling minstrel on steed? No. Is lore-friendly rune-keeper fighting on steed? No.
    So to all who do not want war-goats look at other things and compared to them war-goats are VERY lore-friendly.

  24. #149
    I would like to see Elves riding slot machines at the battle of the hornburg.
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  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Community_Name View Post
    Goats are original and good idea, so you HAVE TO get over it.
    Original? Maybe. I haven't done a literature survey. Good idea? No. Goats as riding animals are a TERRIBLE idea. They spring solely from the comment that Moria is unsuitable to horses (and, by association, ponies). Turbine could have done Moria with no riding animals at all, and they could have justified it by claiming that any left there when the orcs took over were eaten by the orcs. If Turbine had been sensible about the matter, they would have used mules.

    Back to topic.
    War-goats are very good idea because war-steeds are ugly, ugly and ugly.
    How does your dislike the look of war steeds make goats a good idea? If war steeds are ugly, then the art assets need an overhaul. Using the looks of war steeds to justify "war goats" is, at best, silly.

    And is lore-friendly yelling minstrel on steed? No. Is lore-friendly rune-keeper fighting on steed? No.
    So to all who do not want war-goats look at other things and compared to them war-goats are VERY lore-friendly.
    It isn't lore friendly for a Dwarf to ride into battle. not on a horse or pony, and definitely not on a goat. Tolkien's Dwarves fought on foot. Ride *to* the battle, sure...and they'd use horses or ponies. But not for combat.

    That some other things are a poor fit (or complete break) with the lore is no justification for more lore breaks. Each and every lore break should be justified on its own merits, and its own merits only. And war goats have NO merits at all.

    Again...attempts to justify war goats begs the question: Where in LotR are the references to the Goat Lords?

 

 
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