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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    There has been some good one-liners in this thread, but I think this one topped them all. Even though I know it is meant to be at my expense, I did literally laugh out loud at this. I had to give you a plus rep for this one! If Turbine switched out the Giant Goats and put in mules as you'd prefer, you have my leave (not that you need it) to name yours Rasdun.
    Thank you kindly. I do tend to feel that the fine are of invective is in a sad state of decline in these degenerate times. I have returned the compliment for your graciousness over my comment.

  2. #102
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    It has become clear to me that Rasdun just simply wants a War Goat. No amount of lore or reasonable argument in opposition is going to convince him otherwise. He just won't admit that he just wants a goat for mounted combat. Instead, he keeps coming up with wild, "logical" (in his mind anyways) reasons why he should be given one.

    As of right now, I am opposed to the idea of goats being used for mounted combat because it does not currently fit the lore (Tolkien or Turbine) and there is currently no "game mechanic" necessity for them. If we reach a point at which it makes sense to introduce them, I think that most will accept it as "OK. We've reached a point at which we have other types of creatures used for mounted combat according to the storyline." But, right now we are in Rohan, the realm of the "Horse-lords." So, the story should properly focus on the lore of their horses... and the important part they play in defeating Saruman/Sauron... not arguing over whether or not someone road a goat and not a horse.

    But, for now, I will content myself to watch Rasdun turn himself into knots trying to avoid just admitting "I WANT A GOAT. I WANT IT NOW."
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  3. #103
    War goats would be hilarious. After having fun speeding in landscape with my war-steed it saddens me to go back to slow trot in Moria. Also think about all the fun we could have in Moria flying straight into chasms with war-steed's big turn radius. Oh the hilarity. Turbine should implement them!

    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    True, as far as it goes. They're not for player characters. They can only be used by "Team Sauron".
    Maybe if we get new PvMP area with mounted combat we could have creeps using wargs. Spider riding a warg would be a sight to behold...
    Last edited by Junafani; May 01 2013 at 07:26 PM.
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  4. #104
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    While looking for pictures of people riding goats, I found a number of them that looked more like animal abuse than transportation. I also discovered a non-RL implementation: turns out there's a game named WoW that has riding goats. That in itself may be seen by some of the New Devs as reason enough to implement them.

    BTW, I once tried to name my goat "Goatsie" after failing with the obvious name. They'd thought of this variation and disallowed it also, though. We'll see if they caught it in the Forum.
    Tuco of the Quick Post

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post

    Kudos for your keen discernment, sir! I appreciate your positive attitude, good humor and your decision to embrace reality. I will follow according to your suggestion about use of capitalization - that seems quite logical to me as well.

    Oh, certainly and without a doubt. I have stated before that the Giant War Goats should be available for every class just as the superior Giant Goat mounts are currently. It should not be too shocking that elves, especially the Galadhrim, who are known for keen observation, would recognize the superior quality of the Giant Goats.

    Rasdun seems like a good name for a Giant War Goat. I am undecided about the name for mine. I try to keep names simple so maybe either SuperiorDwarvenGiantWarGoat or LegolasTheGiantWarGoat.
    Well, that would be Madam, but I'm a fan of Star Trek and like how Sir is used for everyone, so that works, too.

    No thank YOU for your good humor! After a break from the Forums and coming back to read the usual awful things people post to and about each other, this thread made my day!

    "I think you guys are slowly coming around to seeing the logic of giant war goats and will eventually get on board with this," the Kool-Aid drinking bear, your "anti-pony bias," the 3-step plan, and the RK's in Moria - yeah, you made my day! +1000 (Before it gets turned into Giant War Goat xp)

    (I might recommend some recalibrate their humor meters and go back and read again.)
    Last edited by McFarlane; May 01 2013 at 08:55 PM.

  6. #106
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    Eingelt has never ridden a goat in Moria. He does, however, like the horned hill ponies there and has ridden them elsewhere.

  7. #107
    I can't decide whether to laugh or cry about this thread.

    I'm going to go with laughter.

    Don't disappoint me.
    The forums are not an accurate representation of the thoughts and feelings of the whole player base. Those who like a particular feature are in the game enjoying that feature. Those who don't like it log out to mention it on the forums. It is a relevant but biased source of feedback, and any claims of community desire should take this fact into account.

  8. #108
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    Given how much emotion is being put forward to allow war goats now, can you imagine how much pressure there will be to allow war oliphants later which do have lore qualifications?

    I definitely want my own war oliphant.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    While looking for pictures of people riding goats, I found a number of them that looked more like animal abuse than transportation. I also discovered a non-RL implementation: turns out there's a game named WoW that has riding goats. That in itself may be seen by some of the New Devs as reason enough to implement them.

    BTW, I once tried to name my goat "Goatsie" after failing with the obvious name. They'd thought of this variation and disallowed it also, though. We'll see if they caught it in the Forum.
    Don't forget the dead dude riding the elk in that series which is on tv and in literature which is gaining so much popularity that it may again be the most downloaded show in history this year.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by guguzza71 View Post
    Given how much emotion is being put forward to allow war goats now, can you imagine how much pressure there will be to allow war oliphants later which do have lore qualifications?

    I definitely want my own war oliphant.
    While you have lore on your side (to an extent), and Turbine's inclusion of wooly mammoths as beasts of burden, outright use of oliphants may run into what Yula so quaintly calls Team Gandalf/Team Sauron issues.

    In addition, there is a considerable body of historical precedent for elephants in warfare (which probably where JRRT got the idea to include them) from the Carthaginians (particularly by Hannibal) to South Asian Indians (Alexander the Great had some problems coming up against them).

    Having said that, if Turbine can find a way to give freeps oliphants that makes sense (and I'd bet they won't....talk about "overpowered"), I don't see any particular objections.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by guguzza71 View Post
    Don't forget the dead dude riding the elk in that series which is on tv and in literature which is gaining so much popularity that it may again be the most downloaded show in history this year.
    It's both funny and terribly sad how that could be got away with here (if the devs wanted to) but not in a game which was really based on A Song of Ice and Fire. Imagine if that was an MMO and someone suggested it on the forums there, they'd get flamed like wildfire. Here, of course, the devs opened the floodgates to generic fantasy years ago. (Way to go, devs, taking the 'real' LOTR and making it look like one of its countless low-rent imitators).

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    But, for now, I will content myself to watch Rasdun turn himself into knots trying to avoid just admitting "I WANT A GOAT. I WANT IT NOW."

    I'd be willing to take the high road and offer this olive branch: I will consider conceding two main points important to your argument:


    (1)That I do want a Giant War Goat ASAP (by the release of Helm's Deep at the latest) and that this has been a secondary motivation in starting this thread
    (2)That the number of reality-embracing Giant War Goat supporters that have posted in this particular thread has been relatively "few" in relation to the total number of players who play this game


    But only if, and this is a very fair, but very important & logical stipulation here, you and the other folks who have unexpectedly taken a negative stance vis-a-vis the logical additional of Giant War Goats as an OPTION will get together and decide collectively to refer to us "few" as: "the elite few visionary savants who are willing to shoulder the responsibility to help steer this LOTRO ship towards that beautiful land of actualized logical outcomes in which dwarves, along with hobbits, men, and elves, ride joyously over the landscape as equals astride their Giant War Goats."

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by guguzza71 View Post
    I definitely want my own war oliphant.

    Well, good luck with that, buddy! Considering that players can not currently ride oliphants as "regular" mounts like they can with the existing superior Giant Goat mounts and all the flack I undeservedly have received for my support of the logical additional of Giant War Goats, I think you'll find it difficult to garner any support for this, to say the least!


    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Having said that, if Turbine can find a way to give freeps oliphants that makes sense (and I'd bet they won't....talk about "overpowered"), I don't see any particular objections.

    Wait... what the? **head explodes**


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It's both funny and terribly sad how that could be got away with here (if the devs wanted to) but not in a game which was really based on A Song of Ice and Fire. Imagine if that was an MMO and someone suggested it on the forums there, they'd get flamed like wildfire.

    I know, right? Tell me about it. Just look at all the flames I got for my support of the logical addition of Giant War Goats.. while much more absurb ideas such as the gigantic war ponies have been implemented, and wild-eyed lunatic ideas such as player characters being able to trample across Middle Earth on war oliphants are lovingly embraced.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    I'd be willing to take the high road and offer this olive branch: I will consider conceding two main points important to your argument:


    (1)That I do want a Giant War Goat ASAP (by the release of Helm's Deep at the latest) and that this has been a secondary motivation in starting this thread
    (2)That the number of reality-embracing Giant War Goat supporters that have posted in this particular thread has been relatively "few" in relation to the total number of players who play this game

    But only if, and this is a very fair, but very important & logical stipulation here, you and the other folks who have unexpectedly taken a negative stance vis-a-vis the logical additional of Giant War Goats as an OPTION will get together and decide collectively to refer to us "few" as: "the elite few visionary savants who are willing to shoulder the responsibility to help steer this LOTRO ship towards that beautiful land of actualized logical outcomes in which dwarves, along with hobbits, men, and elves, ride joyously over the landscape as equals astride their Giant War Goats."
    You've been here since June 2011 and you find it unexpected that people would oppose the idea of war-goats, despite how often it's been discussed before? Seriously, where have you been? You don't seem to know the community at all. As for the ludicrous claims to a monopoly on reality and logic, well, that's been dealt with already and you've been found sadly lacking with regard to both.
    Last edited by Hadoril; May 04 2013 at 02:08 PM.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    But only if, and this is a very fair, but very important & logical stipulation here, you and the other folks who have unexpectedly taken a negative stance vis-a-vis the logical additional of Giant War Goats as an OPTION will get together and decide collectively to refer to us "few" as: "the elite few visionary savants who are willing to shoulder the responsibility to help steer this LOTRO ship towards that beautiful land of actualized logical outcomes in which dwarves, along with hobbits, men, and elves, ride joyously over the landscape as equals astride their Giant War Goats."
    Are you familiar with the meaning and origin of the names of the two main Communist factions around the time of the Russian Revolution of 1917, the Bolsheviks and the Menshiviks? If not, I suggest that some research is in order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Wait... what the? **head explodes**
    As I noted, elephants (olipahnts in LotR) *are* in the text. Thus there is lore support for them as war mounts. It would be very hard, I think, for Turbine to find a lore justification for allowing the Free Peoples to use them, but their mere existence as war "steeds" used by Men is not in dispute. If you read back over my remarks in this thread you may note that there is no such lore source for riding goats, let alone the creation, from scratch, for war steed goats.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Scratch 'elite few visionary savants' and insert 'colossal n00b and his three cheerleaders'. Never mind goats, a clown-car would be a more appropriate conveyance for you lot.
    Well, unfortunately, I am going to have to take this to mean that you are rejecting the olive branch that has been extended to you and to the others who have failed to recognize the importance and impeccable logic of my reminder to Turbine that they still haven't added in the much awaited Giant War Goats.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    If you read back over my remarks in this thread you may note that there is no such lore source for riding goats, let alone the creation, from scratch, for war steed goats.
    In fact, there's barely a lore source for the *existence* of goats! As far as I can tell, there are only two mentions of them, and both are analogical: mentioning people hopping around as nimbly as goats.
    Tuco of the Quick Post

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finduilas88 View Post
    As I'm sure you know, the Iron Garrison is purely a Turbine invention; in Tolkien's writings after Balin's attempt the dwarves didn't try to retake Moria again until after the fall of Sauron. However, given the IG's existence in game lore, I don't think it necessarily follows that they would be wiped out...the fall of Sauron is just months away, after all. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to hold out that long, though it certainly could take some time to clear most of the evil critters out of Moria. And one underground space that the dwarves definitely did control at the end of the Third Age is Erebor. Not as vast as Moria, granted, but still non-trivial.
    Sorry to disappoint you, but the current invasion of Moria is doomed. No less an authority than Berephon has told us:

    Quote Originally Posted by Berephon
    The Battle of the Twenty-first Hall

    After much deliberation, we decided this one needed to maintain the idea of retreating before the enemy, since we want to make it clear that this expedition is not the one that eventually succeeds in ousting the Orcs from Moria (which happens, if I recall correctly, two years after The Lord of the Rings.) The Iron Garrison is, in fact, doomed to fail in the end.
    I imagine the Iron Garrison will fall because they haven't had the forethought to train Giant War-goats.
    Tuco of the Quick Post

  19. #119
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    For consistency with Tolkien's tendency toward over-hyphenation and his insistence on making the second part lower case, I'm afraid I'll have to request that these become Giant War-goats instead. Sorry if this requires a complete re-evaluation of the initiative. A small price to pay for a foolish consistency, though, right? I mean, right?
    Tuco of the Quick Post

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    I'd be willing to take the high road and offer this olive branch: I will consider conceding two main points important to your argument:
    If this is what you call an olive branch, you've just insulted olive branches (or you've taken classes from professor Obama).

    (1)That I do want a Giant War Goat ASAP (by the release of Helm's Deep at the latest) and that this has been a secondary motivation in starting this thread
    Good. You've finally taken the step of admitting what all of us, here, have known... but you've only admitted it because you were finally cornered into admitting it.

    However, your good move is quickly undone by what you said after that...

    (2)That the number of reality-embracing Giant War Goat supporters that have posted in this particular thread has been relatively "few" in relation to the total number of players who play this game
    Please stop trying to extrapolate your opinion to be that of a larger number of players unless you have irrefutable proof that at least 51% of the rest of the players are in favor of your war-goats. Your credibility on this issue takes a huge hit every time you attempt to extrapolate without even the slightest bit of solid evidence that enough of the rest of the players would be in favor of your desire to have war-goats at this time.

    Again, I offered up the likelihood that most players wouldn't care either way AS LONG AS Turbine can find a way to explain their existence other than "We already have goats for riding. So, we will give you war-goats." There is a significant chunk of the player base that plays LOTRO in order to experience (and enjoy) all of the story and history behind the storyline. Turbine is unlikely to make any changes away from the lore unless the game mechanics have a gap that needs to be filled. Moria required mounts other than horses; so, Turbine gave us goats. Goats may not be right with the lore, but there was a lore-based reason to give us a different mount in order to fulfill the gap. There is no lore-based reason to introduce war-goats... yet.

    But only if, and this is a very fair, but very important & logical stipulation here, you and the other folks who have unexpectedly taken a negative stance vis-a-vis the logical additional of Giant War Goats as an OPTION will get together and decide collectively to refer to us "few" as: "the elite few visionary savants who are willing to shoulder the responsibility to help steer this LOTRO ship towards that beautiful land of actualized logical outcomes in which dwarves, along with hobbits, men, and elves, ride joyously over the landscape as equals astride their Giant War Goats."
    OK. This is where you completely blow any attempt at extending an olive branch. The way I'd like to respond to this would probably get me banned from the forums. So, I'll play nice...

    1. Again, you seem to think that you have a monopoly on logic in this argument. Thus, you belittle everyone else as being illogical.

    2. You attempt to put yourself up on a pedestal that you haven't, in the slightest, earned the right to sit on. If you want to see someone who is worthy of being called "a visionary," try going and reading the posts by the guy that suggested the kinship revamp. Someone like that is far more worthy of being called a visionary. Not only is his idea well thought out, but he has presented it in a way that instantly got a mountain of support. Your idea for war-goats isn't very well thought out beyond this "logical" extension you claim and you have yet to grab enough support for your idea to pass the threshold of being considered beyond the simple desire to have war-goats.
    If Turbine buckled to everyone's "wishes," we would have all killed off LOTRO a long time ago...

    So, if you really want to extend an olive branch... why don't you go stand in front of a mirror and say "I just really want a war-goat" until you can say it with enough confidence to come back and admit it... without turning around and burning the branch.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Well, the origins of the existing war ponies and the Giant War Goats are obviously not related unless you trace their origins back to a common genetic ancestor. The only thing they really have in common is the ability for our characters to use them in mounted combat which is perfectly logical despite your insistence to the contrary. If your fear is that the Giant War Goats will be superior to the war ponies, I think that concern would be well-founded based on the differences between the existing Giant Goat mounts and the pony mounts.
    /facepalm

    That wasn't what I was saying at all. The war-horses (and ponies) are related to the mearas, and hence they're a teensy bit 'magical'. They're also associated with a people who've been expert horse-breeders since way back when, people for whom horses are a deeply important part of their culture. Your way, we'd have Dwarves who emphatically weren't that keen on riding (it's lore, don't argue) and who culturally don't go in for cavalry at all but instead always fought on foot, suddenly coming up with a bunch of goats which would be every bit as good as the very best horses Rohan could produce. That's all kinds of wrong, and there is no logic to it at all. Your argument is seemingly solely that there are goats so there should be war-goats, ignoring what the game's lore has to say about what makes the Rohirrim war-horses special.

    I think the genius of their decision they made to add in the Giant Goat mounts lies in them being just fantastical enough to be interesting and much prized by the player base, without reaching the level of absurdity that, for example, allowing giant ponies to roam throughout Moria would have been. And, at the same time, they also avoided the game-breaking banality that adding +20% run speed mules to the game would have been. It is quite obvious that only a very few players would actively seek out a mule to ride or be happy with a mule as a deed reward, for example. Whereas the Giant Goats were a wonderful, enduring, bacially iconic, addition to the game that clearly should be extended to include the mounted combat mechanic.
    And what makes giant goats down a mine any more sensible than pit-ponies in a mine? This is bias on your part, pure and simple, likely founded on some preconceived notion acquired from other fantasy and ignoring the specifics of this one. The goats are neither iconic nor original to this game, they're derivative - I first came across the "Dwarves riding goats" meme via some Ral Partha miniatures decades ago. Regardless, they're misplaced by being added to Middle-earth (which was not written to be that sort of generic fantasy) and giving them equal footing with the finest war-horses Rohan could produce would be a travesty.

    When I graciously agree to concede two main points in exchange for just one stipulation, that is definitely an olive branch. There were no ridiculous demands from my side. FYI, my tremendous success in this thread is due in part to maintaining the following as my stock in trade:
    1. Strict adherence to logic
    2. Planting my stance firmly in reality
    3. Patience to respond to those who unexpectedly expressed a lack of interest in seeing the logical addition of Giant War Goats
    4. Graciousness to acknowledge when others make a decent argument
    Your 'tremendous success'? Don't make me laugh, you're just puffing yourself up and grandstanding. And if you're still trying to say you didn't expect opposition, then again I say you know neither the subject nor this community because it was absolutely predictable that someone would disagree.

    And don't talk to me about graciousness when you keep trying to claim that reality is on your side. As for logic, pfft. Give me a proper answer to the points I raised above, this time around, or forfeit that claim

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    2. Planting my stance firmly in reality
    What color is the sky on your planet?

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    I'd definitely support your endeavor here -- 'tis a decent idea and positive addition to this thread. Welcome aboard - I knew you'd all come around eventually! Many thanks and kudos to you. *Passes a second flagon of kool-aid to TheCrossbow*
    Heads up TheCrossbow! Don't drink the kool-aid!

  24. #124
    This Troll has gotten fat. Just saying.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c0000002a9058/01005/signature.png]Halemric[/charsig]

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
    For consistency with Tolkien's tendency toward over-hyphenation and his insistence on making the second part lower case, I'm afraid I'll have to request that these become Giant War-goats instead. Sorry if this requires a complete re-evaluation of the initiative.

    Tuco, if that is what it takes to get you on board... welcome aboard! The main point has always been to remind Turbine that they forgot to give us the logical, much-anticipated option to use the Giant Goats when participating in the mounted combat mechanic. I don't think any of us reality-embracing champions of Turbine's Giant Goat mounts, would mind if they are refered to as Giant War-goats in the context of mounted combat.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    So, if you really want to extend an olive branch... why don't you go stand in front of a mirror and say "I just really want a war-goat" until you can say it with enough confidence to come back and admit it... without turning around and burning the branch.

    I have followed according to your advice and I will now unequivocally admit that the logical addition of the Giant War-goats is appealing to me and I do now have the confidence to say that I do really want to have a Giant War-goat. Let me ask you -- what kind of attributes would expect of the Giant War-goats if they were implemented in a way that was acceptable to you? Definitely open to anyone's ideas on this, so please feel free to chime in with your 2 cents.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    /facepalm
    That wasn't what I was saying at all. The war-horses (and ponies) are related to the mearas, and hence they're a teensy bit 'magical'.

    I think I did mistunderstand you there, then and I appologize. Let me say that I am all for the Giant War-goats being a teensy bit 'magical' too. What magical qualities would you expect of the Giant War-goats? Sounds like we just need to flesh the idea out a little more to get you and the other stragglers on board with this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    And what makes giant goats down a mine any more sensible than pit-ponies in a mine? This is bias on your part, pure and simple, likely founded on some preconceived notion acquired from other fantasy and ignoring the specifics of this one. The goats are neither iconic nor original to this game, they're derivative - I first came across the "Dwarves riding goats" meme via some Ral Partha miniatures decades ago.

    Well, there is a first time for everyone. My first time falling in love with the Giant Goat mounts is slightly different than your first time -- I first encounted them in LoTRO. I think the first one I got was the Ale Association Goat mount. What makes them more sensible than pit-poines? Well, it certainly can be my anti-pony bias showing, but, as I stated previously, I think that they are just fantastical enough to make them sought-after without going too far in the direction of absurd. Pit-ponies would be just "meh" -- I couldn't envision receiving a pit-pony as a reward from dwarven (or elven) factions like the superior Giant Goat mounts are presently.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Your 'tremendous success'? Don't make me laugh, you're just puffing yourself up and grandstanding. And if you're still trying to say you didn't expect opposition, then again I say you know neither the subject nor this community because it was absolutely predictable that someone would disagree.

    Well, laughing would not be a bad result at all! But I will agree that "tremendous" is a matter of opinion, so let us call it just plain "success" so that we can at least remove this one point of contention.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    And don't talk to me about graciousness when you keep trying to claim that reality is on your side. As for logic, pfft. Give me a proper answer to the points I raised above, this time around, or forfeit that claim

    I don't think reality take sides, it just is. We are all free to embrace it or not -- same for logic, either you choose to follow according to it or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    What color is the sky on your planet?

    Hmmm.. trick question?

 

 
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