It has become clear to me that Rasdun just simply wants a War Goat. No amount of lore or reasonable argument in opposition is going to convince him otherwise. He just won't admit that he just wants a goat for mounted combat. Instead, he keeps coming up with wild, "logical" (in his mind anyways) reasons why he should be given one.
As of right now, I am opposed to the idea of goats being used for mounted combat because it does not currently fit the lore (Tolkien or Turbine) and there is currently no "game mechanic" necessity for them. If we reach a point at which it makes sense to introduce them, I think that most will accept it as "OK. We've reached a point at which we have other types of creatures used for mounted combat according to the storyline." But, right now we are in Rohan, the realm of the "Horse-lords." So, the story should properly focus on the lore of their horses... and the important part they play in defeating Saruman/Sauron... not arguing over whether or not someone road a goat and not a horse.
But, for now, I will content myself to watch Rasdun turn himself into knots trying to avoid just admitting "I WANT A GOAT. I WANT IT NOW."
Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain
War goats would be hilarious. After having fun speeding in landscape with my war-steed it saddens me to go back to slow trot in Moria. Also think about all the fun we could have in Moria flying straight into chasms with war-steed's big turn radius. Oh the hilarity. Turbine should implement them!
Last edited by Junafani; May 01 2013 at 07:26 PM.
While looking for pictures of people riding goats, I found a number of them that looked more like animal abuse than transportation. I also discovered a non-RL implementation: turns out there's a game named WoW that has riding goats. That in itself may be seen by some of the New Devs as reason enough to implement them.
BTW, I once tried to name my goat "Goatsie" after failing with the obvious name. They'd thought of this variation and disallowed it also, though. We'll see if they caught it in the Forum.
Tuco of the Quick Post
No thank YOU for your good humor! After a break from the Forums and coming back to read the usual awful things people post to and about each other, this thread made my day!
"I think you guys are slowly coming around to seeing the logic of giant war goats and will eventually get on board with this," the Kool-Aid drinking bear, your "anti-pony bias," the 3-step plan, and the RK's in Moria - yeah, you made my day! +1000 (Before it gets turned into Giant War Goat xp)
(I might recommend some recalibrate their humor meters and go back and read again.)
Last edited by McFarlane; May 01 2013 at 08:55 PM.
Eingelt has never ridden a goat in Moria. He does, however, like the horned hill ponies there and has ridden them elsewhere.
I can't decide whether to laugh or cry about this thread.
I'm going to go with laughter.
Don't disappoint me.
The forums are not an accurate representation of the thoughts and feelings of the whole player base. Those who like a particular feature are in the game enjoying that feature. Those who don't like it log out to mention it on the forums. It is a relevant but biased source of feedback, and any claims of community desire should take this fact into account.
Given how much emotion is being put forward to allow war goats now, can you imagine how much pressure there will be to allow war oliphants later which do have lore qualifications?
I definitely want my own war oliphant.
In addition, there is a considerable body of historical precedent for elephants in warfare (which probably where JRRT got the idea to include them) from the Carthaginians (particularly by Hannibal) to South Asian Indians (Alexander the Great had some problems coming up against them).
Having said that, if Turbine can find a way to give freeps oliphants that makes sense (and I'd bet they won't....talk about "overpowered"), I don't see any particular objections.
I'd be willing to take the high road and offer this olive branch: I will consider conceding two main points important to your argument:
(1)That I do want a Giant War Goat ASAP (by the release of Helm's Deep at the latest) and that this has been a secondary motivation in starting this thread
(2)That the number of reality-embracing Giant War Goat supporters that have posted in this particular thread has been relatively "few" in relation to the total number of players who play this game
But only if, and this is a very fair, but very important & logical stipulation here, you and the other folks who have unexpectedly taken a negative stance vis-a-vis the logical additional of Giant War Goats as an OPTION will get together and decide collectively to refer to us "few" as: "the elite few visionary savants who are willing to shoulder the responsibility to help steer this LOTRO ship towards that beautiful land of actualized logical outcomes in which dwarves, along with hobbits, men, and elves, ride joyously over the landscape as equals astride their Giant War Goats."
Well, good luck with that, buddy! Considering that players can not currently ride oliphants as "regular" mounts like they can with the existing superior Giant Goat mounts and all the flack I undeservedly have received for my support of the logical additional of Giant War Goats, I think you'll find it difficult to garner any support for this, to say the least!
Wait... what the? **head explodes**
I know, right? Tell me about it. Just look at all the flames I got for my support of the logical addition of Giant War Goats.. while much more absurb ideas such as the gigantic war ponies have been implemented, and wild-eyed lunatic ideas such as player characters being able to trample across Middle Earth on war oliphants are lovingly embraced.
Last edited by Hadoril; May 04 2013 at 02:08 PM.
Berephon has told us:
I imagine the Iron Garrison will fall because they haven't had the forethought to train Giant War-goats.Originally Posted by Berephon
Tuco of the Quick Post
For consistency with Tolkien's tendency toward over-hyphenation and his insistence on making the second part lower case, I'm afraid I'll have to request that these become Giant War-goats instead. Sorry if this requires a complete re-evaluation of the initiative. A small price to pay for a foolish consistency, though, right? I mean, right?
Tuco of the Quick Post
Good. You've finally taken the step of admitting what all of us, here, have known... but you've only admitted it because you were finally cornered into admitting it.(1)That I do want a Giant War Goat ASAP (by the release of Helm's Deep at the latest) and that this has been a secondary motivation in starting this thread
However, your good move is quickly undone by what you said after that...
Please stop trying to extrapolate your opinion to be that of a larger number of players unless you have irrefutable proof that at least 51% of the rest of the players are in favor of your war-goats. Your credibility on this issue takes a huge hit every time you attempt to extrapolate without even the slightest bit of solid evidence that enough of the rest of the players would be in favor of your desire to have war-goats at this time.(2)That the number of reality-embracing Giant War Goat supporters that have posted in this particular thread has been relatively "few" in relation to the total number of players who play this game
Again, I offered up the likelihood that most players wouldn't care either way AS LONG AS Turbine can find a way to explain their existence other than "We already have goats for riding. So, we will give you war-goats." There is a significant chunk of the player base that plays LOTRO in order to experience (and enjoy) all of the story and history behind the storyline. Turbine is unlikely to make any changes away from the lore unless the game mechanics have a gap that needs to be filled. Moria required mounts other than horses; so, Turbine gave us goats. Goats may not be right with the lore, but there was a lore-based reason to give us a different mount in order to fulfill the gap. There is no lore-based reason to introduce war-goats... yet.
OK. This is where you completely blow any attempt at extending an olive branch. The way I'd like to respond to this would probably get me banned from the forums. So, I'll play nice...But only if, and this is a very fair, but very important & logical stipulation here, you and the other folks who have unexpectedly taken a negative stance vis-a-vis the logical additional of Giant War Goats as an OPTION will get together and decide collectively to refer to us "few" as: "the elite few visionary savants who are willing to shoulder the responsibility to help steer this LOTRO ship towards that beautiful land of actualized logical outcomes in which dwarves, along with hobbits, men, and elves, ride joyously over the landscape as equals astride their Giant War Goats."
1. Again, you seem to think that you have a monopoly on logic in this argument. Thus, you belittle everyone else as being illogical.
2. You attempt to put yourself up on a pedestal that you haven't, in the slightest, earned the right to sit on. If you want to see someone who is worthy of being called "a visionary," try going and reading the posts by the guy that suggested the kinship revamp. Someone like that is far more worthy of being called a visionary. Not only is his idea well thought out, but he has presented it in a way that instantly got a mountain of support. Your idea for war-goats isn't very well thought out beyond this "logical" extension you claim and you have yet to grab enough support for your idea to pass the threshold of being considered beyond the simple desire to have war-goats.
If Turbine buckled to everyone's "wishes," we would have all killed off LOTRO a long time ago...
So, if you really want to extend an olive branch... why don't you go stand in front of a mirror and say "I just really want a war-goat" until you can say it with enough confidence to come back and admit it... without turning around and burning the branch.
Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain
That wasn't what I was saying at all. The war-horses (and ponies) are related to the mearas, and hence they're a teensy bit 'magical'. They're also associated with a people who've been expert horse-breeders since way back when, people for whom horses are a deeply important part of their culture. Your way, we'd have Dwarves who emphatically weren't that keen on riding (it's lore, don't argue) and who culturally don't go in for cavalry at all but instead always fought on foot, suddenly coming up with a bunch of goats which would be every bit as good as the very best horses Rohan could produce. That's all kinds of wrong, and there is no logic to it at all. Your argument is seemingly solely that there are goats so there should be war-goats, ignoring what the game's lore has to say about what makes the Rohirrim war-horses special.
And what makes giant goats down a mine any more sensible than pit-ponies in a mine? This is bias on your part, pure and simple, likely founded on some preconceived notion acquired from other fantasy and ignoring the specifics of this one. The goats are neither iconic nor original to this game, they're derivative - I first came across the "Dwarves riding goats" meme via some Ral Partha miniatures decades ago. Regardless, they're misplaced by being added to Middle-earth (which was not written to be that sort of generic fantasy) and giving them equal footing with the finest war-horses Rohan could produce would be a travesty.I think the genius of their decision they made to add in the Giant Goat mounts lies in them being just fantastical enough to be interesting and much prized by the player base, without reaching the level of absurdity that, for example, allowing giant ponies to roam throughout Moria would have been. And, at the same time, they also avoided the game-breaking banality that adding +20% run speed mules to the game would have been. It is quite obvious that only a very few players would actively seek out a mule to ride or be happy with a mule as a deed reward, for example. Whereas the Giant Goats were a wonderful, enduring, bacially iconic, addition to the game that clearly should be extended to include the mounted combat mechanic.
Your 'tremendous success'? Don't make me laugh, you're just puffing yourself up and grandstanding. And if you're still trying to say you didn't expect opposition, then again I say you know neither the subject nor this community because it was absolutely predictable that someone would disagree.When I graciously agree to concede two main points in exchange for just one stipulation, that is definitely an olive branch. There were no ridiculous demands from my side. FYI, my tremendous success in this thread is due in part to maintaining the following as my stock in trade:
1. Strict adherence to logic
2. Planting my stance firmly in reality
3. Patience to respond to those who unexpectedly expressed a lack of interest in seeing the logical addition of Giant War Goats
4. Graciousness to acknowledge when others make a decent argument
And don't talk to me about graciousness when you keep trying to claim that reality is on your side. As for logic, pfft. Give me a proper answer to the points I raised above, this time around, or forfeit that claim
This Troll has gotten fat. Just saying.
Tuco, if that is what it takes to get you on board... welcome aboard! The main point has always been to remind Turbine that they forgot to give us the logical, much-anticipated option to use the Giant Goats when participating in the mounted combat mechanic. I don't think any of us reality-embracing champions of Turbine's Giant Goat mounts, would mind if they are refered to as Giant War-goats in the context of mounted combat.
I have followed according to your advice and I will now unequivocally admit that the logical addition of the Giant War-goats is appealing to me and I do now have the confidence to say that I do really want to have a Giant War-goat. Let me ask you -- what kind of attributes would expect of the Giant War-goats if they were implemented in a way that was acceptable to you? Definitely open to anyone's ideas on this, so please feel free to chime in with your 2 cents.
I think I did mistunderstand you there, then and I appologize. Let me say that I am all for the Giant War-goats being a teensy bit 'magical' too. What magical qualities would you expect of the Giant War-goats? Sounds like we just need to flesh the idea out a little more to get you and the other stragglers on board with this.
Well, there is a first time for everyone. My first time falling in love with the Giant Goat mounts is slightly different than your first time -- I first encounted them in LoTRO. I think the first one I got was the Ale Association Goat mount. What makes them more sensible than pit-poines? Well, it certainly can be my anti-pony bias showing, but, as I stated previously, I think that they are just fantastical enough to make them sought-after without going too far in the direction of absurd. Pit-ponies would be just "meh" -- I couldn't envision receiving a pit-pony as a reward from dwarven (or elven) factions like the superior Giant Goat mounts are presently.
Well, laughing would not be a bad result at all! But I will agree that "tremendous" is a matter of opinion, so let us call it just plain "success" so that we can at least remove this one point of contention.
I don't think reality take sides, it just is. We are all free to embrace it or not -- same for logic, either you choose to follow according to it or not.
Hmmm.. trick question?
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