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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter View Post
    One opinion to rule them all...one opinion to find them....



    Yes....TURBINE'S game. Not Radsun's. Turbine's game that has, as one of it's many times stated goals, the desire to remain as true to the lore of Middle earth as possible while providing compelling gameplay. They do not step on Middle earth lore "just cuz". When they do, they (usually) need a compelling reason to do so. (Note: The degree of compelling is open to personal taste!)
    We are in definite agreement here. Note that we've been able to role play dwarves with their giant goat mounts (you do now admit the reality that dwarves have an association with giant goats in this game?) for years now. So why in Middle Earth would my dwarf eschew his beloved giant goat in Rohan for the sake of a "war" pony? This completely does not make sense and is basically game-breaking omission for players who have preferred the giant goat mounts all along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter View Post
    What is the compelling reason for adding yet another lore breach? (War Goats).
    It is not another lore breach, it is logical extension from an existing embellishment that needs to be added for the sake of consistency in this game. As I stated before, some of us like the giant goats regardless of whether or not other players appreciate their addition. Now in Rohan our dwarves are forced to abandon these superior mounts for those ridiculous ponies in order to participate in mountain combat? That is absurd in the context of this game. Turbine has added "newer" giant goat mounts all along, such as the treasure-laden goat, etc. It is inconsistent of them to omit the giant war goats we've been waiting for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter View Post
    Why would war goats be available in Rohan? (Who in Rohan trains war goats, and why?)
    For the use of our dwarven characters (but not exclusive use -- any race should be able to choose a giant war goat) who are clearly not barred from participation in mounted combat nor from any content in Rohan and who have a clear association with and fondness for the giant goats.

  2. #52
    By the way, it is not like I am advocating that hobbits dressed in you-in-the-box's on pink "war" ponies should be able to ride into battle or that dwarves in sea green dresses on matching ponies should be able to participate... or that an RK should be able to ride into battle on a giant eagle nuking the orcs with lightniing emanating from their hands. All this simple clear thread is for to point out and remind Turbine that we should be able to use the existing giant goat mounts as "war steeds" which is absolutely logical in the context of this game despite all the players opposed to the logical addition of giant war goats trying to shout down this necessary addition.

    Edit: removed "nay-sayers"
    Last edited by Rasdun; Apr 29 2013 at 04:25 PM.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post

    <meandering nonsense>
    Again, you bounce all over the place trying to make up justifications for a position that is nothing but "Rasdun wants a war goat...NOW!!!!!" There is nothing logical or "modified lore" based to it. I'm not objecting to your personal preference. I AM objecting to your baseless assertion that your preference has anything to do with logic or any kind of lore.

    IF you insist on maintianing your wish is both logical and "lore based", then answer the following simple question, and do so *without* resorting to out of character game mechanics.

    Who trains war goats in Rohan and why do they do so?

    If you can't even manage that....you have nothing but a personal desire, utterly devoid of IN GAME justification.

    You keep calling this wish both "logical" and "Turbine lore consistent"....you keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they do...

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  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter View Post
    [... more of the same illogical argument against giant war goats]

    Look, you can go back and read my posts -- I have addressed your concerns many times because all the players opposed to the logical addition of giant war goats just have the same argument: "we don't like that the giant goats exist in the game because they are not in Tolkien's Middle Earth, so we do not want players to be able to enjoy their giant war goats even though they clearly and logically should be added."


    My advice is to follow this simple 3-step fact-based process like others have done before you:


    1. Recognize that giant goat mounts are in the game and are here to stay for as long as the game exists
    2. Recognize that dwarves have an association with these giant goat mounts in this game
    3. Recognize that dwarves participate in mounted combat - solo or within a "calvary" - as much as any other race in this game


    Now that you've been through that simple 3-step fact-based process, congratulations and welcome aboard the giant war goat bandwagon. You may take your place among the other converted players opposed to the logical addition of giant war goats who have thankfully stopped their vocal opposition.




    Edit: removed "nay-sayer" usage.
    Last edited by Rasdun; Apr 29 2013 at 04:30 PM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Our giant goat mounts should be usable as a war "steeds" in the Helm's Deep expansion. We can ride giant goats everywhere in this game, so it makes perfect sense to have giant war goats as well. Especially for dwarves who should be more comfortable with giant war goats than the ludicrous war ponies, given the abundance of fearless giant domesticated goats in Moria and the high esteem they have for the giant goat mounts that are available for purchase in Thorin's Hall. But they should also be available to all other races since there are no race restrictions when it comes to the use of giant goat mounts.
    First, I'd like to say that it is quite amusing (to say the least) that you are personally attacking anyone who disagrees with you. Definitely the best way to win an argument...

    And, you can add me to the list of those who disagree with you. Let me explain why...

    The reason we don't use horses in Moria is because of the simple reason that, as Aragorn explained, Moria was "no place for a pony."

    So, Turbine decided to give us giant goats as a means of swiftly traveling in Moria. They aren't as flashy as horses but the giant goats were closer to what the Dwarves might use to get around Moria. Are they lore-based? I'm not an expert, but the goats are probably the closest to the lore that could be inserted without causing too much of a hassle.
    Turbine also allowed us to use our goats outside of Moria. I'm fine with that considering that perhaps not everyone in Middle-Earth would use a "horse" as a mount. For all I know, they might use whatever "beasts of burden" they have access to. Lore specific? Maybe not, but it is completely plausible. I'm not a "lore hawk" as long as things can be given a plausible explanation (i.e. makes sense without being a big stretch).

    However, to ask for "War Goats" I think is asking a bit much. There is no plausible explanation for them. Why? Because there is no record in any of the books or Tolkien notes telling of anyone using "War Goats." There is no record anywhere of anything other than Horses being used for war, and, even then, the use of horses for war seems to be limited to mostly Men/Elves. And, even then, the only major conflict(s) involving more than a few horses (for the commanders) was Rohan. Most armies (as is typical) prefer to fight wars "on foot". Why? Because maintaining that many horses would be incredibly expensive. Rohan is unique in that they have unique access to (what could be called) "special horses". As others have explained, the horses that Rohan uses are not just your average horse.
    In fact, the horses in Rohan are special enough that before you get very far in Rohan, you are tasked with acquiring a "war steed" and not just "a horse."

    So, I say all this to say... As much as some people might like to use a "War Goat", it is something that should be great consideration before implementing... or properly denied. In this case, Turbine should not buckle to the request of "war goats" until we reach a point where they can give a plausible lore-related explanation for it.

    Also, consider that, outside of Rohan, we really cannot take advantage of our war steeds aside from the increased travel speed. War steeds, so far, are completely unique to Rohan.

    Now, you might cite the addition of the "war wolf" for Lore-masters to use with Update 11. While it is a bit of a stretch being that wolves in ME are not exactly "good guys," there is a plausible explanation that the Lore-master might seek to acquire a companion capable of keeping up with the speed of your war horse. So, being that wolves are largely neutral (but wild) creatures, you could see them being trainable considering the connection the Lore-master has with the natural world. Personally, something from the feline group (a cheetah) might have been better, but the addition of the "war wolf" does also fill a "gap" in companions (the lack of a "dog") that some have argued for some time.

    So, as much as you would like a war goat, the support for such a creature on the basis of lore or even a plausible explanation just isn't there (yet).
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Look, you can go back and read my posts -- I have addressed your concerns many times
    You forgot one.

    Who trains war goats in Rohan, and why do they do so?

    I think WHH said it best:

    Concerning your position, denial is not just a river in Egypt....

    Thankfully, I suspect Turbine sees this idea for what it is. A nonsensical waste of time and money that would bring in no new players...but would very likely drive some current players away.
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  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    First, I'd like to say that it is quite amusing (to say the least) that you are personally attacking anyone who disagrees with you. Definitely the best way to win an argument...
    I seriously do not agree that I have personally attacked anyone, let alone everyone who has disagreed with my post -- can you give me an example of what you think is an a personal attack? I will delete and/or modify the alleged attack to clear up anything that might be construed as a personal attack as I don't want to run any risk that this important thread be deleted. I am hoping to have the giant war goats added in, but it appears to be an uphill battle despite the demonstrated logic of it as, quite unexpectedly, there are some very vocal opponents of it. Thank you!

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter View Post
    You forgot one.

    Who trains war goats in Rohan, and why do they do so?

    I responded the first time you asked:
    Why?: For our dwarven (and any other) characters who have come accustomed to riding them.
    Who?: Entirely up to Turbine, anyway they want to do this is fine by me, I am just hoping they will rectify their omission. Probably would make the most sense, in terms of game mechanics, to have the same trainers take care of all 3: horses, giant goats, and ponies. Turbine didn't go into much detail regarding the lore of giant goats and they wouldn't need to go into much detail when adding them here. They just need to add them to keep the game logically consistent and the dwarves happy.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    I seriously do not agree that I have personally attacked anyone, let alone everyone who has disagreed with my post -- can you give me an example of what you think is an a personal attack? I will delete and/or modify the alleged attack to clear up anything that might be construed as a personal attack as I don't want to run any risk that this important thread be deleted. I am hoping to have the giant war goats added in, but it appears to be an uphill battle despite the demonstrated logic of it as, quite unexpectedly, there are some very vocal opponents of it. Thank you!
    The fact that you are calling everyone who disagrees with you as "nay-Sayers" is basically calling every argument against your desire as "stupid and not really worthy of response, but I will respond so as to cover up the fact that I think you are stupid."
    So, if you were to delete/modify the "attack", you would have to pretty much delete all of your posts.

    Also, you were not expecting vocal opponents when your argument really isn't all that solid? And, because of the lack of a good foundation for your desire (other than that we already have giant goats to ride), you attack others well-explained reasons as just being "nay-Sayers".

    You still have yet to answer (what I think is) a good question: "Who trains the War Goats, and for what purpose?"

    Until you can provide a plausible, lore-based explanation for why you should have a War Goat, you will not convince anyone else to agree with you. And, attacking them and belittling their arguments definitely won't win you any points.

    Want to win some supporters? Answer the question of "Who trains the War Goats, and for what purpose?" Put the argument in terms of the LORE. Yes, the LORE matters because without it LOTRO wouldn't exist... and sticking close to the lore is what is selling the game for most people. They want to explore the world that Tolkien designed, not the world that has War Goats that don't match up to the lore...
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    I responded the first time you asked:
    Why?: For our dwarven (and any other) characters who have come accustomed to riding them.
    This is a non-answer. It is entirely outside of the game and has no basis in even Turbine lore, let alone Tolkien lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Who?: Entirely up to Turbine, anyway they want to do this is fine by me, I am just hoping they will rectify their omission.
    So....despite your repeated insistance that war goats are consistant with Turbine lore....you can't come up with any way to justify your request that is either logical or consistant with said lore. Another non-answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Probably would make the most sense, in terms of game mechanics, to have the same trainers take care of all 3: horses, giant goats, and ponies.
    How does this make sense? In terms of game mechanics, it would, indeed, be the easiest way to handle it...but what basis in Turbine lore makes it possible, let alone desirable? (Hint: The Rohirrim....don't like dwarves. Why would they train war steeds specificly for a group they don't get along with???)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Turbine didn't go into much detail regarding the lore of giant goats and they wouldn't need to go into much detail when adding them here. They just need to add them to keep the game logically consistent and the dwarves happy.
    Finally, you get to your sole actual point. Rasdun wants war goats. Lore and logic don't matter.
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  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    The fact that you are calling everyone who disagrees with you as "nay-Sayers" is basically calling every argument against your desire as "stupid and not really worthy of response, but I will respond so as to cover up the fact that I think you are stupid."

    I can go back and edit my posts to change "nay-sayer" -- I did not realize that would be taken as a personal attack. I was using it as a brief equivalent of "those against the logical addition of giant war goats" -- it is much shorter to just write "nay-sayer'. Give me some time, but I'll go back change it so I don't need to suffer any accusation of personal attacks.

    But believe me, if I replied to people I definitely deemed them worthy to reply to. I think those who are making arguments have been making the same argument, and it is a decent argument, it is the same one I'd be making if I didn't like the giant goats. But their perspective is based on a rigid adherence to Tolkien's lore, despite the many additions of embellishments such as the giant goats mounts that are in game for our enjoyment and convenience. And you are not going find a Tolkien lore way to justify everything that is in the game, so that should not be the sole basis that everything in game should be judged by.

    Let me ask the game lore experts: who trained the existing giant goats in the game? Has that been defined? Maybe you can come up with an explanation for Turbine to include the much needed logical addition of giant war goats in the next expansion as hoped for. That would be very constructive.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter View Post
    This is a non-answer. It is entirely outside of the game and has no basis in even Turbine lore, let alone Tolkien lore.
    Are you saying that the fact that dwarves are associated with giant goats and that those giant goats are availabe as mounts has no basis in Turbine lore? How can that simultaneously have no basis in the game's lore, yet exist in the game? Please go back to the post in which I gave you 3 easy fact-based statements you can use to arrive at the logical conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter View Post
    How does this make sense? In terms of game mechanics, it would, indeed, be the easiest way to handle it...but what basis in Turbine lore makes it possible, let alone desirable? (Hint: The Rohirrim....don't like dwarves. Why would they train war steeds specificly for a group they don't get along with???)
    Why do they give dwarves war ponies? Why do dwarves have an association with the ridable giant goats that everyone can use in this game? Why can a dwarf dress up their war ponies they receive from Rohan in outfits with dye received from a hobbit present slot machine and ride them while wearing a you-in-the-box? Look, you are not going to find every answer about what should and shoudn't exist in the game from the lore. And I'm am not the one you should seek out for those answers. Again, please go back to those three simple facts I have given you before -- if you are not satisfied with that, then I don't think you'll ever be satisfied.

    Failing to do that, you are ignoring the game lore simply because you don't like the giant goats. Your sole argument comes down to "I don't like the giant goats that are in the game, so they shouldn't be usable in mounted combat."

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Let me ask the game lore experts: who trained the existing giant goats in the game? Has that been defined?
    Obviously, the dwarves did. Goats are only available (in game) from the reputation vendors in Thorin's Hall, the Ale association, and the Iron Garrison in the 21st hall. All dwarven groups. Dwarves, however, train them as mounts/beasts of burden, and *NOT* as war steeds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Maybe you can come up with an explanation for Turbine to include the much needed logical addition of giant war goats in the next expansion as hoped for. That would be very constructive.
    Firstly, I dispute your assertion they are "much needed", or even needed AT ALL. Secondly, I dispute that said addition is "hoped for" by any but a small contingent of players. In fact, I'll wager the number of players who would HATE war goats exceeds those who would want it by an order of magnitude. And both factions are likely dwarfed by the number who couldn't care less, one way or another.

    That being said, I, at least, can think of no reason the Rohirrim (the ONLY group in Turbine's Middle earth so far that has any skill/connection to any kind of war steed training) would use goats as anything but food. In all the lands controlled by the Sons of Eorl (so far, at least) the only time goats are mentioned is when we are sent out to kill goats and bring back the meat....hardly supportive of the idea such beasts are seen as worthy of training as mounts of any kind.
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  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter View Post
    Obviously, the dwarves did. Goats are only available (in game) from the reputation vendors in Thorin's Hall, the Ale association, and the Iron Garrison in the 21st hall. All dwarven groups.
    Agreed, and is there anything at all in Tolkien's writing to suggest that the dwarves of Thorin's Hall, Ale Association, and Moria should breed and train giant goats that are as fast as horses for riding? If not, then you can not then make the argument that the men of Rohan also shouldn't have goats that they train for mounted combat solely based on Tolkien lore.

    Rather, as I have stated many times now, it makes more sense are would be more consistent to *game lore* that the Rohan shall also have fast ridable giant goats that they have trained so that players who have grown accustomed to and enjoyed the giant goat mounts can continue to use their preferred mount when engaging in mounted combat. It is really that simple. We have three types of mounts available, but only two for mounted combat.

    I can not think of any more fitting location that the giant goats of such ability as those available in Thorin's Hall & Moria should have originated from (within game lore) than from the land of the expert breeders and trainers: Rohan.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    I can go back and edit my posts to change "nay-sayer" -- I did not realize that would be taken as a personal attack. I was using it as a brief equivalent of "those against the logical addition of giant war goats" -- it is much shorter to just write "nay-sayer'. Give me some time, but I'll go back change it so I don't need to suffer any accusation of personal attacks.
    It is only YOUR logical addition. Just because YOU think it is logical does not make it so. The goats we ride were added as a logical need for faster travel around Moria given that we could not use horses. That is a completely, logical and lore-related reason for the large riding goats. Extending that as a reason to want War Goats is only logical IF you are willing to ignore the fact that NO WHERE in Tolkien lore (or in real life for that matter) are War Goats mentioned. No where are goats mentioned as being used for war the way horses are.
    Please, give us a place where they can reasonably fit into the story and you will get much farther. Just wanting them as an extension of having them as travel mounts is not a good enough excuse for Turbine to include them. My lore-master has an eagle as a pet. Therefore, by extension, I think I should be able to ride one! My argument seems logical, but it ignores the fact that the riding of the giant eagles was very rare and usually only available to those with great authority or stature (i.e. Gandalf). My lore-master may be "epic" in my book, but in the end, he is just a lore-master who has yet to achieve the prestige to ride a giant eagle other than on rare occasions.



    But believe me, if I replied to people I definitely deemed them worthy to reply to. I think those who are making arguments have been making the same argument, and it is a decent argument, it is the same one I'd be making if I didn't like the giant goats. But their perspective is based on a rigid adherence to Tolkien's lore, despite the many additions of embellishments such as the giant goats mounts that are in game for our enjoyment and convenience. And you are not going find a Tolkien lore way to justify everything that is in the game, so that should not be the sole basis that everything in game should be judged by.
    1. Most of the people here do not "dislike" the giant goats. Those who do probably do so for RP reasons and are not actually hating goats.

    2. You are still continuing to bash those who disagree with you on solid, lore-based reasons. If you want to win converts to your argument, just stop bashing them.

    For the record, Turbine has done a very good job of sticking fairly close to the lore. Again, I am not an expert, but I have yet to find reason to complain on that issue. And, where embellishments are required, Turbine has been able to adequately explain the reason for it. The goats exist primarily because of a need to provide people with a means to get around Moria faster on a creature that isn't afraid to go "underground."

    *You* are the one who has yet to give a lore-related explanation for the War Goat. But, you keep expecting your 1 explanation that "well, we already have goats we can ride" as the only explanation you need.

    And, you keep bashing those who want Turbine to respect and stick to the lore as much as possible...

    Is their desire to respect the Tolkien lore somehow less valid than your desire to have a war goat?

    Let me ask the game lore experts: who trained the existing giant goats in the game? Has that been defined? Maybe you can come up with an explanation for Turbine to include the much needed logical addition of giant war goats in the next expansion as hoped for. That would be very constructive.
    So... now it is other people's job to come up with an explanation? You are the one most vocally advocating for War Goats. You need to provide the explanation. Go do your homework and find a plausible way to explain them aside from your leap from "Riding Goat" to "War Goat".

    The "nay-Sayers" have provided ample reasons why war goats should not be included for lore reasons... how about you give us some lore based reasons why we should include them?
    Last edited by TheCrossbow; Apr 29 2013 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Correcting a typo
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  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Are you saying that the fact that dwarves are associated with giant goats and that those giant goats are availabe as mounts has no basis in Turbine lore? How can that simultaneously have no basis in the game's lore, yet exist in the game? Please go back to the post in which I gave you 3 easy fact-based statements you can use to arrive at the logical conclusion.
    Your constant dancing between IN GAME LORE and GAME MECHANICS WITH NO BASIS IN ANY LORE is giving me whiplash. Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand the difference between the two? Dressing up like a present exists in game. Are you seriously suggesting it has a basis in game lore? The ability to shift outfits at the touch of a button exists in game. Do you also assert that "game lore" contains this ability? Swift travel exists in game. Do you assert that we have mounts capable of warp speed?

    Do you really not understand the difference between lore and mechanics??

    On to your "three statements":

    1. Recognize that giant goat mounts are in the game and are here to stay for as long as the game exists

    Correct. Has no basis on war goats.

    2. Recognize that dwarves have an association with these giant goat mounts in this game

    Correct. Has no basis on war goats.


    3. Recognize that dwarves participate in mounted combat - solo or withing a "calvary" - as much as any other race in this game

    Correct. Mounts that they receive IN ROHAN. From THE HORSELORDS, NOT THE GOAT LORDS. Again, nothing to do with war goats.


    Your vaunted "three statements" do nothing to demonstrate any valid reason for war goats. Try again?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Why do they give dwarves war ponies?
    Same reason hobbits and elves get them. It is bad form in a game to give one player race something while denying it to others. Lore based? Not really. Simple game mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Why do dwarves have an association with the ridable giant goats that everyone can use in this game? Why can a dwarf dress up their war ponies they receive from Rohan in outfits with dye received from a hobbit present slot machine and ride them while wearing a you-in-the-box?
    Wow...you really *don't* understand the difference between game mechanics and any kind of lore, do you? If this is your idea of valid game lore, I can't help you. I personally find it hard to believe that you are doing anything here but posting non-sequiters in a desperate attempt to bolster your completely debunked claims of war goats being either logical or Turbine lore based, but hey...unlike you, I don't tell folks to not post in a public forum. Party on, Dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Failing to do that, you are ignoring the game lore simply because you don't like the giant goats. Your sole argument comes down to "I don't like the giant goats that are in the game, so they shouldn't be usable in mounted combat."
    Patently false. A huge chorus of voices here have given you numerous lore based reasons (both Turbine and Tolkien based) why war goats don't fit. The fact that you can't (or won't) see them is not the fault of the posters.

    There are none so blind as those who will not see....
    Last edited by Belias_Lassiter; Apr 29 2013 at 04:22 PM.
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  17. #67
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    What I want to use for Mounted Combat...

    Since I can summon an eagle, I want a war-eagle.

    Since I can summon a bear, I want a war-bear.

    Since I can summon a raven, I want a war-raven.

    Since I can summon a ____, I want a war-______.


    Anyone who disagrees with me is stupid and is stuck on the stupid lore...
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  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Agreed, and is there anything at all in Tolkien's writing to suggest that the dwarves of Thorin's Hall, Ale Association, and Moria should breed and train giant goats that are as fast as horses for riding?
    Nope. This is all Turbine, and is quite silly to a great many of us. So silly, in fact, that when WHH originally tried to explain this to you he said Turbine "spent a lore cookie" here. Meaning Turbine stomped all over Tolkien for simple game mechanics...and as mules would have been FAR more logical, did so in a gratuitous way. A point you chose to claim argued for them to "logically" make this silliness even MORE silly by extending it to a completely non-existant (in Tolkien OR reality) dimension. ie: war goats. What's next? Panda characters??



    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    If not, then you can not then make the argument that the men of Rohan also shouldn't have goats that they train for mounted combat solely based on Tolkien lore.

    Rather, as I have stated many times now, it makes more sense are would be more consistent to *game lore* that the Rohan shall also have fast ridable giant goats that they have trained so that players who have grown accustomed to and enjoyed the giant goat mounts can continue to use their preferred mount when engaging in mounted combat. It is really that simple. We have three types of mounts available, but only two for mounted combat.

    I can not think of any more fitting location that the giant goats of such ability as those available in Thorin's Hall & Moria should have originated from (within game lore) than from the land of the expert breeders and trainers: Rohan.
    I already debunked this. I find it interesting that you snipped out the portion of the post you quoted before making this claim. Let me add it back for you in case you just missed it the first time...

    That being said, I, at least, can think of no reason the Rohirrim (the ONLY group in Turbine's Middle earth so far that has any skill/connection to any kind of war steed training) would use goats as anything but food. In all the lands controlled by the Sons of Eorl (so far, at least) the only time goats are mentioned is when we are sent out to kill goats and bring back the meat....hardly supportive of the idea such beasts are seen as worthy of training as mounts of any kind.

    Nowhere in Rohan do we even SEE giant goats, save for those ridden by a few players. Goats in Rohan and the Great River zone are normal sized.
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  19. #69
    Wow, this is a lot of rage over some goats!

    I've pretty much asked for war-goats since the expansion was released, so I definitely support the OP. In addition, I'm also a huge fan of all of the lore. There are several things that seem to not have been pointed out in this thread:

    1. War-goats don't need to come from Rohan.

    Just like the LI quests send you to either Rivendell or Thorin's Hall, it seems entirely plausible you could train both types of steeds in Mounted Combat. Just because MC was introduced in Rohan doesn't mean that it only comes from Rohan.

    2. With the vast underground spaces that the Dwarves inhabit, a trained goat force actually makes sense.

    How many people do you see mount up on their horses in Thorin's Hall? That place is too big to run across.

    3. There are large wild goats placed around LOTRO's landscape.

    There are wild goats in both ROHAN and Eregion (in Rohan they're near the river), and evil Druggavar in Dunland and Enedwaith. It's plausible to have these large, sturdy mounts in the game - even if it's not in the Lore.

    4. This game gives beautifully armored goats as deed rewards.

    If you complete the Moria/Lothlorien dungeons, you can get beautifully armored goats. Why would these goats be so prized and decked out if the Dwarves just used them as pack-mules?


    As I mentioned, I love goats and I think they're a wonderful alternative to the uglier ponies that Dwarves and Hobbits have to ride (I hate the proportions of ponies.) They fit into the lore of the game, and it seems like it would make a great addition to MC.
    .

    75 hunter Cilantro *Retired until hunters see changes* 75 Warden Aerdith * 75 RK Vanmoriel * 67ish LM Celothwen * 52 Burg Lemongrass

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by slflew View Post
    1. War-goats don't need to come from Rohan.

    Just like the LI quests send you to either Rivendell or Thorin's Hall, it seems entirely plausible you could train both types of steeds in Mounted Combat. Just because MC was introduced in Rohan doesn't mean that it only comes from Rohan.
    I think it does. Both Tolkien and Turbine are pretty specific about this. No other force in Northern Middle earth has any sort of cavalry whatsoever. In fact, the only other mounted combatants are warg riders, Wainriders and Harradrim. Since I highly doubt the dwarves are getting their war goats from orcs, Easterlings or Southrons, who *IS* training them? Your LI example doesn't apply. Who in Harwick is going to train/offer the player a war goat? Would you place a dwarven community in Rohan? Or send folks who want goats elsewhere to learn MC?

    Quote Originally Posted by slflew View Post
    2. With the vast underground spaces that the Dwarves inhabit, a trained goat force actually makes sense.
    What vast underground spaces do the dwarves control at this point in the Third Age? Certainly not Moria, as we know the Iron Garison is doomed and will be wiped out since Moria is reclaimed *after* the fall of Sauron. Or if we give the nod to Turbine, they will at least not finish the fighting in Moria for a long time. Yet we see no areas currently under dwarven control with any goats save riding goats. Where are the training grounds? If you intend to add them at a future date, will folks wanting goats have to go to Moria for their MC traing quest?

    Quote Originally Posted by slflew View Post
    3. There are large wild goats placed around LOTRO's landscape.

    There are wild goats in both ROHAN and Eregion (in Rohan they're near the river), and evil Druggavar in Dunland and Enedwaith. It's plausible to have these large, sturdy mounts in the game - even if it's not in the Lore.
    I don't recall seeing any in Rohan. In Eregion and Enedwaith (and I think, Dunland) but not Rohan. Maybe I missed them. In any case, there is no mention in Turbine's Rohan or Tolkien's that suggest goats are used for anything but eating. I ask again, who trains war goats in Rohan, and for what purpose? To suggest that war goats belong in the game, this question *MUST* be answered. Or at least it must be to make any sort of lore based claim, be it Turbine lore or Tolkien lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by slflew View Post
    4. This game gives beautifully armored goats as deed rewards.

    If you complete the Moria/Lothlorien dungeons, you can get beautifully armored goats. Why would these goats be so prized and decked out if the Dwarves just used them as pack-mules?
    I don't personally have the black Moria goat, but my usual questing partner does. I don't recall it being armoured, but since she hasn't used it since RoR, maybe I just don't recall correctly. My guess...because dwarves are almost as silly as their goofy goats?

    Quote Originally Posted by slflew View Post
    As I mentioned, I love goats and I think they're a wonderful alternative to the uglier ponies that Dwarves and Hobbits have to ride (I hate the proportions of ponies.) They fit into the lore of the game, and it seems like it would make a great addition to MC.
    Again, I get that some folks like goats and want war goats. I dispute the notion they are logical or lore based. I presonally think adding them would be one more step down the wrong path. Squandering a "lore cookie" when Turbine's bank of said cookies is running *very* low....
    Last edited by Belias_Lassiter; Apr 29 2013 at 05:38 PM.
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    (you do now admit the reality that dwarves have an association with giant goats in this game?)
    He may or may not agree with that statement, but I don't. Goats were introduced in Moria for the sole reason that LotR specifies that horses cannot be used there. Period. End of "exemption". I have seen members of every "race" riding goats, so there is nothing Dwarf specific to them.

    That Turbine made the mistake of using goats for transport in Moria in no way justifies compounding that mistake by add goats as war steeds. As already noted...please point to any part of LotR that refers to "the Goat-lords of Rohan". Or, for that matter, the Goat-lords of anywhere else in Middle-earth.

    If it were up to me, the goats in Moria would be replaced with mules and all goat mounts in the game would be eliminated.

  22. #72
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    What's all this I hear about Warg Oats in Helm's Deep? Wargs are evil carnivores! They don't eat grains, they eat flesh. Raw flesh. Does anyone really think they can distact wargs from attacking them by tempting them with a bowl of oats? This is the most ridiculous...

    What?

    Oh.

    Never mind.

    /Emily Litella
    The Lag is so bad I saw Sara Oakheart outrun someone - kickman77

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  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Nosdracir View Post
    What's all this I hear about Warg Oats in Helm's Deep? Wargs are evil carnivores! They don't eat grains, they eat flesh. Raw flesh. Does anyone really think they can distact wargs from attacking them by tempting them with a bowl of oats? This is the most ridiculous...

    What?

    Oh.

    Never mind.

    /Emily Litella
    Okay, THAT was funny!! +rep (And not just because Gilda Radner was awesome!)
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    He may or may not agree with that statement, but I don't. Goats were introduced in Moria for the sole reason that LotR specifies that horses cannot be used there. Period. End of "exemption". I have seen members of every "race" riding goats, so there is nothing Dwarf specific to them.

    That Turbine made the mistake of using goats for transport in Moria in no way justifies compounding that mistake by add goats as war steeds. As already noted...please point to any part of LotR that refers to "the Goat-lords of Rohan". Or, for that matter, the Goat-lords of anywhere else in Middle-earth.

    If it were up to me, the goats in Moria would be replaced with mules and all goat mounts in the game would be eliminated.
    Keep the wild goats that wander around in Eregion, though. They're cute.
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone

  25. #75

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by slflew View Post
    Wow, this is a lot of rage over some goats!

    I've pretty much asked for war-goats since the expansion was released, so I definitely support the OP. In addition, I'm also a huge fan of all of the lore. There are several things that seem to not have been pointed out in this thread:

    1. War-goats don't need to come from Rohan.

    Just like the LI quests send you to either Rivendell or Thorin's Hall, it seems entirely plausible you could train both types of steeds in Mounted Combat. Just because MC was introduced in Rohan doesn't mean that it only comes from Rohan.

    2. With the vast underground spaces that the Dwarves inhabit, a trained goat force actually makes sense.

    How many people do you see mount up on their horses in Thorin's Hall? That place is too big to run across.

    3. There are large wild goats placed around LOTRO's landscape.

    There are wild goats in both ROHAN and Eregion (in Rohan they're near the river), and evil Druggavar in Dunland and Enedwaith. It's plausible to have these large, sturdy mounts in the game - even if it's not in the Lore.

    4. This game gives beautifully armored goats as deed rewards.

    If you complete the Moria/Lothlorien dungeons, you can get beautifully armored goats. Why would these goats be so prized and decked out if the Dwarves just used them as pack-mules?


    As I mentioned, I love goats and I think they're a wonderful alternative to the uglier ponies that Dwarves and Hobbits have to ride (I hate the proportions of ponies.) They fit into the lore of the game, and it seems like it would make a great addition to MC.
    Thanks for your positive contribution -- you make some great points that Turbine should consider when adding in the giant war goats. Given that the giants riding goats currently in game all come from dwarves or dwarf-related activities, it indeed might make more sense that the giant war goats would come from them as well, as you pointed out.

    Another possibility is that the giant goat appearance could be added as a customization option, a "skin", to the existing war ponies -- not as ideal as a full implementation, but at least as far as appearances go, it would be a satisfactory way to maintain consistency and *might* be simpler for Turbine to implement.

    It is really a shame that this thread got bogged down with the arguments from just a few people who dislike the idea of giant war goats and are very vocal about it.

 

 
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