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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    I am not sure how Turbine reconciles the giant goat mounts with Tolkien lore. I don't think that they are based on anything except for Turbines imagination.
    I think they initially justified find on the text saying that horses (and, by extension, ponies) were unsuited to use in Moria. From there, deciding that they needed travel routes, they selected goats instead of going for the obvious, and historically real, mules.

    For my part, I do see clearly now that some people just flat out hate the goats...
    I don't "hate" goats. Goats are very useful. Angora goats give very nice fibers for spinning weaving and knitting. Goats milk can be used to make cheese. Goat meat is tasty. Goats are good to have. However, *riding* goats is just silly at best. Riding them in combat is simply beyond the pale.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    I don't "hate" goats. Goats are very useful. Angora goats give very nice fibers for spinning weaving and knitting. Goats milk can be used to make cheese. Goat meat is tasty. Goats are good to have. However, *riding* goats is just silly at best. Riding them in combat is simply beyond the pale.

    I didn't write anything about players hating goats in general. I wrote it is clear that the opposed players just flat out hate *the* goats. Use of "the" means that I am referring to specific goats -- i.e. those that are in game as giant goat mounts and that should logically be available for use as an alternative to war ponies and horses... the whole subject of this thread. Flat-out hate is the only reason I can see that people are illogically against having giant war goats. Try putting yourself into the mindset of champion or guard dwarves. I think you'll find that they consider war ponies "silly at best" (totally demasculating even to female dwarves) and have a clear association, and implied preference for, the giant goats. It might be that there was just not enough funds or developer time to make the giant war goats... that is the only logical explanation for their absence up to until now. It was a stupid, illogical decision not to include them at RoR launch and they have an opportunity to correct it with Helm's Deep. Let's all encourage this correction.


    edit: removed "nay-sayer" usage
    Last edited by Rasdun; Apr 29 2013 at 04:15 PM.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    I didn't write anything about players hating goats in general. I wrote it is clear that the nay-saying players just flat out hate *the* goats. Use of "the" means that I am referring to specific goats -- i.e. those that are in game as giant goat mounts and that should logically be available for use as an alternative to war ponies and horses... the whole subject of this thread. Flat-out hate is the only reason I can see that people are illogically against having giant war goats.
    There is no Lore justification for riding goats. Think I'm wrong? Show me a quote from LotR that mentions riding goats.

    Turbine spent a "Lore cookie" to include riding goats in Moria, and then *didn't* restrict them outside of Moria. It would have been sensible to have done so. We wouldn't have goats being ridden all over the place if you couldn't ride a goat outside of Moria just like you can't ride a horse/pony inside Moria. (Of course, it would have been even more sensible to have not used goats at all, though they could have given a nod to the Harvard Lampoon's _Bored of the Rings_ and used sheep.)

    They'd have to find some other justification for war goats. I'll grant that ponies are a problem, but at least ponies are very closely related to horses and it would not be unreasonable for very young Rohirrim to ride ponies. Goats? Once again...no way to infer their existence AT ALL.

    It's not a matter of hate (or of love, either). Riding goats simply don't *fit* in Middle-earth.

    Try putting yourself into the mindset of champion or guard dwarves.
    I've got a Dwarf Guardian. He fights on foot where ever and when ever possible.

    I think you'll find that they consider war ponies "silly at best" (totally demasculating even to female dwarves) and have a clear association, and implied preference for, the giant goats.
    I see... You've taken an opinion survey, have you? Got the numerical spread and confidence level to go with that statement?

    It might be that there was just not enough funds or developer time to make the giant war goats... that is the only logical explanation for their absence up to until now. It was a stupid, illogical decision not to include them at RoR launch and they have an opportunity to correct it with Helm's Deep. Let's all encourage this correction.
    Possible, but not terribly likely. Most likely is that someone observed that the Rohirrim are repeatedly referred to the "Horse-lords" and nowhere as the "Goat-lords". Thus...no war goats.

    And by the way, with regards to Hobbits...I refer you to the statements made about Bullroarer Took and what he could ride.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    ... I'll grant that ponies are a problem, but at least ponies are very closely related to horses and it would not be unreasonable for very young Rohirrim to ride ponies.
    When Merry took service with Théoden, he received a pony named Stybba to ride. Of course, Théoden did not intend that Merry should ride Stybba to war ... and in fact he didn't; he rode pillion with Dernhelm.
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone

  5. #30
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    Nothing like beating a dead goat!

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by wulu View Post
    Funny how people keep ignoring posts that stated that there are ponies , war ponies for the dwarfs and hobbits, I find it hard to believe that they are in the same league as Mearas.
    No horses in game (except Shadowfax) are in the same league as the Mearas. Warsteeds were meant to simply be related to them, a distant bloodline -- but not so distant that they lack the power and intelligence to ride to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by podgie_bear View Post
    And which part of the Lore are Hobbyhorses in?
    Ask Turbine.
    [center][font=andalus][size=2]akara / [/size][size=1]warg[/size][IMG]http://i59.tinypic.com/16iyt5f.jpg[/IMG][size=2]blays /[/size][size=1] hunter[/size]
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by podgie_bear View Post
    And mounted combat for Dwarves and Hobbits isn't?
    That's a fair point, but can you imagine the disappointment of players of Dwarf and Hobbit characters if they could not participate in mounted combat? Why, they'd be disappointed as Merry not being permitted to accompany the Rohirrim on their ride to Gondor on his pony Stybba. Oh wait...

    In any case, two wrongs do not make a right. Dwarves and Hobbits participating in mounted combat is one thing, allowing them to do so on the back of large goats is quite another.

  8. #33
    If Radagast can drive a bunny sled (granted, movie visual rather than actual lore), then I can ride a Giant War Goat.
    ...

    Or ... a War Mammoth, just like the Lossoth. On second thought, forget the goats.

  9. #34
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    gimmie one of the giant bears! yeah baby yeah! or a Mountain Lion. My war cougar will pounce and rip you to shreds! Everyone should have a war cougar!

    for guys who don't want goats...give em tricycles that will really piss em off. War trikes!

    Sometimes I think we take the lore a bit too seriously....Now where is that runekeeper with his hand held Death Star?
    A cosmos without the Doctor scarcely bears thinking about- The Master

  10. #35
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    War goats, no matter what the size, need to be black though.. :-)
    In place of a dark lord, you shall have Queen...... All shall love me and dispair


    .

  11. #36
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    I love how you keep saying that giant goats were in Tolkien's version of ME when he never said such a thing. He's probably agree that mules would have been a better choice, though. Those would have been plausible.

  12. #37
    My dwarf guardian rides a full-size warsteed, not a warpony. Are there even warponies in this game?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    That's like the suggestion somebody posted a while back about Lore-masters having wolf pets that they could ride.

    Wolves -- even those that are just animals, not Wargs -- are among the bad guys. The Wargs play for Team Sauron; the wolves, simple beasts, just want to kill and eat you. Neither one is a suitable mount for the Free People, not even little Hobbits whom a big wolf *might* be able to carry, but not into battle. Druggavar are likewise among the bad guys. I don't know if they have as much intelligence as Wargs, but they don't act like it. There's a place in Enedwaith where you can just stand and pot them as fast as they respawn, and they keep respawning. Not smart enough.

    What Turbine should have done in Moria, but it's too late now, was to provide mules, not goats. Goats can be domesticated to the extent of living in a paddock and being milked, but not ridden on.

    /sigh
    I take it you haven't seen the new LM War Wolf for mounted combat?
    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...er-Mounted-pet

    I still want my War Oliphant!!!

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingault View Post
    I love how you keep saying that giant goats were in Tolkien's version of ME
    Uh ... WHO keeps saying that??

    when he never said such a thing. He's probably agree that mules would have been a better choice, though. Those would have been plausible.
    Agreed, but it' too late now.t
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone

  15. #40

    my little goat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainith View Post
    War goats should only be allowed if they are flying war goats. If they aren't going to fly, they'll just look ridiculous.
    they will implement this with gondor, everyone will have to get one to battle the nazgul on the flyie thingies at minas blah blah blah
    anyone whose seen the movies hopefully knows what i mean, and with mordor you will fly alongside the eagles to rescue... you get what im going at
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000002fe39f/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
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  16. #41
    I think a bighorn ram would make a superior war mount to a goat. With their naturally armored skulls they'd be excellent at knocking the enemy down. Hmm, perhaps I should start a campaign for war sheep...

  17. #42
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    I would sit in Moria for days watching people riding their wargoats and falling down everywhere.
    Nothing but oldskool noise!

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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    I won't and I don't even want to *see* one, and that would be outside of my control.

    Goats were a mistake from their very first appearance. Turbine should have used mules in Moria.
    I don't want to see one *anywhere*... and *certainly* not outside of Moria!

    The only good thing about seeing elves riding goats in Bree is that those particular elves aren't hopping around the tables in the Prancing Pony. What is it about elves and hopping?

    Oh, and get your goat off my lawn - he's eating it!
    Tuco of the Quick Post

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by SRF View Post
    I would sit in Moria for days watching people riding their wargoats and falling down everywhere.
    I think the giant war goats would naturally have a much higher maximum value for agility while perhaps only slightly less maximum speed than the war ponies. So I really don't think that would be too much of problem, plus only players who go back to Moria with way a over-leveled character would run into this.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Turbine spent a "Lore cookie" to include riding goats in Moria, and then *didn't* restrict them outside of Moria.
    Yes, exactly! Now to follow that through to its logical conclusion: giant war goats should be available soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    I'll grant that ponies are a problem
    Bingo! They are a huge problem for dwarves especially

    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    It's not a matter of hate (or of love, either). Riding goats simply don't *fit* in Middle-earth.
    Well, they fit like a glove in Turbine's version and they have a clear association with dwarves in their version. They did a nice job integrating the giant goats into Middle Earth, they just left out the giant war goats which hopefully will be available in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    I've got a Dwarf Guardian. He fights on foot where ever and when ever possible.
    I see... You've taken an opinion survey, have you? Got the numerical spread and confidence level to go with that statement?
    LOL, yes, I surveyed all the dwarves in Thorin's Hall and every single one told me they prefer to ride the giant goats that they offer rather than the demasculating ponies. And if they were to participate in mounted combat, it would be on a giant war goat.

    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Possible, but not terribly likely. Most likely is that someone observed that the Rohirrim are repeatedly referred to the "Horse-lords" and nowhere as the "Goat-lords". Thus...no war goats.
    None of the dwarves are Rohirrim and would not be referred to as horse-lords (or goat-lords -- no one is mentioning the titel "goat-lord" except for *you*), but they certainly would ride a giant goat into war (and they do currently ride giant goats everywhere, they just currently don't participate in mounted combat) in Turbine's middle earth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowbear64 View Post
    If Radagast can drive a bunny sled (granted, movie visual rather than actual lore), then I can ride a Giant War Goat.
    ...

    Or ... a War Mammoth, just like the Lossoth. On second thought, forget the goats.
    Maybe not -- there is no precedent for being able to use mammoths in the game like there is for using giant goats. Mammoths are not yet available as even regular mounts like the giant goats are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintjoan View Post
    War goats, no matter what the size, need to be black though.. :-)
    I think customization should be possible just like war ponies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abersoch_EU View Post
    My dwarf guardian rides a full-size warsteed, not a warpony. Are there even warponies in this game?
    Haha, yes! Spoken like a true dwarf guardian! They don't let reality bruise their egos! My dwarf guardian is taller than any human guardian to hear him tell it.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by wulu View Post
    Also, for those of you who keep using the lore as an excuse, then when helm's deep releases, please restrain yourself from going there, here is a cold hard truth, You, yes, You, were not there. ( unless you are man who is from Rohan)
    Are you sure that the men of Rohan were the only ones at Helms Deep? Lets us not speak of the Uruk-hai, or the Men of Dunland that came a bit later. What about the Huorns that had extensive one on ones with the fleeing Uruk-hai.

    Let us remember, that hobbits can go un-noticed when they want. What is to say that a hobbbit or two, you know a small tour group, or a Hobbit Warden or two, might have snuck into Helms Deep before the arrival of that large, rowdy tour group of Uruk-hai. All know that Wardens hang out on the fringes of Civilization and can swing the balance in any battle, especially a Hobbit Warden....
    Ujest - 105 Lore-master, Opun - 76 Warden, plus alts and mules
    Pipeweed and Ale, Arkenstone (formerly Friends of Frodo Vilya)

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Yes, exactly! Now to follow that through to its logical conclusion: giant war goats should be available soon.
    Logic has nothing to do with your desire to further pollute Middle earth with even *MORE* silly inappropriate (to the setting) nonsense than has already been added. Your "logic" boils down to:

    Turbine stepped all over the Professor's work once, therefore I want them to do it again...only step harder!! Really squash that lore now!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    None of the dwarves are Rohirrim and would not be referred to as horse-lords (or goat-lords -- no one is mentioning the titel "goat-lord" except for *you*), but they certainly would ride a giant goat into war (and they do currently ride giant goats everywhere, they just currently don't participate in mounted combat) in Turbine's middle earth.
    Mounted combat is *unique* to Rohan. The only place in all of (Turbine's)Middle earth that you can accquire a war steed is in Rohan. And as there are no "goat lords" there, the only type of steed you can get that is trained for battle is an equine.

    Your contention that dwarves would ride goats to war is a complete failure. Please name even one battle (in the 6,000+ years of recorded Middle earth history) where a dwarven cavalry is even alluded to, let alone mentioned.

    What does a race that lives (and usually fights) underground want with a cavalry anyway?

    Illogical suggestion is illogical. (No matter how many times you insist it isn't.)
    Last edited by Belias_Lassiter; Apr 29 2013 at 12:08 PM.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter View Post
    What does a race that lives (and usually fights) underground want with a cavalry anyway?

    Illogical suggestion is illogical. (No matter how many times you insist it isn't.)
    + rep and the virtual caffeine delivery system of your choice.
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Belias_Lassiter View Post
    Your contention that dwarves would ride goats to war is a complete failure. Please name even one battle (in the 6,000+ years of recorded Middle earth history) where a dwarven cavalry is even alluded to, let alone mentioned. What does a race that lives (and usually fights) underground want with a cavalry anyway?
    You're failing to recognize the difference(s) between Tolkien's Middle Earth and Turbine's version. Again, in order to keep from failing to see the logic, you first must recognize the absolute reality that ***in this game*** dwarves have as association with giant goat mounts that are usable everywhere by every class and race in the game. Second FACT you must recognize, is that mounted combat is not exclusive to men of Rohan in this game. Now put this together and you will see the light that dwarves (and all races, really) clearly must have the OPTION to ride giant goat mounts rather than the absolutely sissy girly ponies that currently exist as the only option of war "steed" for dwarves. Once you understand this, you'll be back to delete your post and apologize for detracting from the main point of this thread. If you like to illogically prance around on your war pony that is your prerogative. But let the rest of us ride on a sturdy dwarven giant war goats like respectable dwarves!!

    Please guys, if you are not going post anything constructive and conveniently fail to recognize the giant goat mounts that are ***ALREADY in the game*** and their association with dwarves in this game then I prefer that you didn't post on this thread. This isn't a thread about Tokien lore, this is a thread about Turbine's game -- there is quite a difference between the two whether you like it or not.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    Please guys, if you are not going post anything constructive and conveniently fail to recognize the giant goat mounts that are ***ALREADY in the game*** and their association with dwarves in this game then I prefer that you didn't post on this thread.
    One opinion to rule them all...one opinion to find them....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasdun View Post
    This isn't a thread about Tokien lore, this is a thread about Turbine's game -- there is quite a difference between the two whether you like it or not.
    Yes....TURBINE'S game. Not Rasdun's. Turbine's game that has, as one of its many times stated goals, the desire to remain as true to the lore of Middle earth as possible while providing compelling gameplay. They do not step on Middle earth lore "just cuz". When they do, they (usually) need a compelling reason to do so. (Note: The degree of compelling is open to personal taste!)

    What is the compelling reason for adding yet another lore breach? (War Goats).

    Why would war goats be available in Rohan? (Who in Rohan trains war goats, and why?)

    While mounted combat may not be exclusive to be *USED* only by men of Rohan, steeds for said combat *ARE* exclusively gained in the Riddermark. So again....who trains war goats in Rohan and why?

    Illogical suggestion is still Illogical.
    Last edited by Belias_Lassiter; Apr 29 2013 at 01:00 PM.
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