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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amrundir View Post
    You missed
    No I didn't, that link doesn't state, categorically it will NEVER HAPPEN it merely reflects the state of it not being available at present and leaves open whether it's something still being considered; Sapience's post yesterday clearly states it WON'T ever happen, IMO that's a huge difference.

  2. #102
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    Truly disappointed in this move...

    It seems you're pulling out the one integral part of LoTRO that has been praised from day one from all your web sites... Community.

    No blogs, no lorebook, no apis... All that we're going to be left with is forums, and a lottery? Sad times...

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk47 View Post
    You think?
    I know! 35 years in software development, given Sapience's brief overview of how the disparity came about, tell me it's simply a data processing problem, albeit probably a complex one. Nothing he said indicates the job was considered technically infeasible, it came down to cost.

    The Codemasters LOTRO database was internally consistent as far as we know, the game worked after all, and the data described the same game states as Turbine's since it was the same game and the only differences CM/Turbine ever alluded to were multi-language issues which wouldn't be expected to affect the data describing a character; thus mapping one to the other must be possible given the will.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar View Post
    The 'risk' excuse of course is pretty specious, competent programmers/designers don't 'lose' data, so the reason for them not doing it is entirely financial.
    You clearly have not had any significant experience with large complex systems ...

    The older the system the more probable the loss of data truly is. That is why there are so many, many systems still running which are written in COBOL. ... when was the last time a program was written in COBOL? How many Java-script-kiddies even know the language exists, let alone the difference between BCD encoded data and EBCDIC. ... ASCII ... ???? you use ASCII for data encoding ... oops! And we won't even mention the difference between 32-bit and 64-bit encodings.

    EMULATORS were conceived and written so that old programs would continue to run in "new environments" because no competent programmers were able to convert them.

    The basic problem with upgrading/converting programs is the absolute REQUIREMENT that the individual programmers doing the work MUST know both the language and the environments at both ends of the project -- not just the Suits who are overseeing the work!

    The new Mac Client is a case in point... It clearly was written by "competent programmers." Competent maybe, but far from either experienced or excellent! This "new" piece of software (released in July of 2012) was written by Windows programmers who had zero experience or knowledge of OSX, Unix or Linux. Why do I say that? Simple... the embedded file-names contain the backslash "\". While not an illegal character in a filename under OSX, their meaning and use is radically different between Windows and OSX (or any other Unix(tm) environment, including Linux).

    So, don't tell me that "competent programmers/designers don't 'lose' data," over 30 years experience in the business belies that statement. (And yes, I've been retired now for several years.)

    Now, I won't disagree completely with the "financial" explanation -- because those you call "competent programmers / designers" command six-figure salaries, far beyond their worth to the enterprise. By the time you are talking about programmers and designers who can actually do the job needed, you are talking about HIGH six-figure salaries. Every decision made by every company in the world is "Financial." "Competent programmers / designers" who never had to create a budget or prioritize work because of limited resources, don't realize that. They never consider the implications of their work unless some "suit" demands that some project be completed "on-time" ... and then they simply stay-up all night for three days straight and try to complete it... errors and all, just to get the suit off their back.

    Databases? What's a database? ... Programmers / Designers don't deal with databases, they are for DataBase Administrators to worry about! They don't even eat lunch together!
    Bill Magill Mac Player Founder/Lifetimer
    Old Timers Guild - Gladden

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    "Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar View Post
    I know! 35 years in software development, given Sapience's brief overview of how the disparity came about, tell me it's simply a data processing problem, albeit probably a complex one. Nothing he said indicates the job was considered technically infeasible, it came down to cost.

    The Codemasters LOTRO database was internally consistent as far as we know, the game worked after all, and the data described the same game states as Turbine's since it was the same game and the only differences CM/Turbine ever alluded to were multi-language issues which wouldn't be expected to affect the data describing a character; thus mapping one to the other must be possible given the will.
    I'll see your 35 years and raise you my 41 years.

    But seriously, I agree it is possible, but it is definitely risky. The question is whether the risk is worth it. I wonder how many $25 character transfers would be result from making the change. I suspect it would have to number in the tens of thousands.

    And it isn't just the characters. Each character comes with a large number of items from their bags, vault, house, etc. You have to fix the ids for every item in the database, and I wouldn't care to speculate how many tens of millions that would be. Then you have to do it on a quiescent database, which means taking the game down for as long as it takes. (You really need to have both databases static while you do the mapping.) And since you are mapping UNIQUE ids, you probably have to do the mapping twice using a set of intermediate ids. In order to swap ids 2 and 3, you need to change one to a third unique value first. Pretty soon the costs of doing this add up to some serious money.
    TANSTAAFL

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valamar View Post
    The reason that LOTRO-Wiki.com is not complete or is outdated is the simple fact that NONE of the information in it comes from Turbine!!!

    All of the posted information is acquired by Players playing the game and being willing to take the time to capture and post that information on the Wiki. It is an extremely time-consuming and tedious process.

    Areas which are well documented and current are areas where there are multiple people interested enough and dedicated enough to keep them current. Other areas are simply of minimal interest to the players who post on the Wiki. Many editors have been playing LOTRO since release in 2007.

    If you want more and more current information -- I urge you to join the Wiki editorial staff! It's open to anyone with an interest in LOTRO. ... and it's a WIKI!

    BTW, one of the biggest "issues" is ALWAYS changes in quest lists -- the two recent Moria revamps are the best example. Moria has many new quests, old quests "moved" and a surprisingly large number of old quests -- "dropped" -- i.e. no longer available, but still in people's quest logs! It does get confusing when you try to update things! And the only way to update an area like that ... roll up a new character and "run 'em through!" As I said, time-consuming and tedious work.
    Yes I know, and I have always wondered why Turbine didn't pull the quest data directly from the game for the Lorebook - as Lorebook was always updated days, weeks, or even months after the game was updated with new quests. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to contribute to Wiki myself, but I appreciate a lot all those who do contribute there! Still, all the date is there so it shouldn't be THAT hard to export from game database if Turbine wanted. I know game systems can be tricky, but in the end, database is database. Still, that does not matter now unless we are getting something new to replace Lorebook, maybe they are not ready to announce it yet or something. One can always hope...

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by karnage320 View Post
    PvMP Leaderboards are being discontinued? Leaderboards are an integral part of any PvP community and can add a competitive element server wide. Granted, rank isn't really what it used to be, but this is a pretty significant loss to PvMP.

    There are several non-Turbine websites that are based almost entirely on the leaderboard data. Surely there must be some way to make that data available after the website changes.
    Yes this is a very poor move. PVMPers have to wait patiently for every added feature and update and this seems like a slap in the face. Leaderboards are exactly the kind of thing that PVP fans like and look forward to.

    Bad move. Insensitive move. I don't want to hear about forum performance either because, according to Turbine, only a few posters have any issues. It's almost like a move done out of spite or something because I see no good reason stated for the discontinuation of this service.
    Jeffaman-Guarding Hobbit Jeffro-Burgling Hobbit Tinulaurien-Elf Lore Master Cephus-Champion of Men Lilnooblet-Hunting Hobbit Jeffrandir-Snooty Elf Rune-keeper- All of Brandywine
    Long live the halflings! Praise them with great praise!
    RIP Nidor - Brandywine's bravest warrior


  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galahadur View Post
    So... no my.lotro.com? No Black Apendange and PvMP daily stats?

    Suddenly the forums being unstable seems alot more wonderful than this new community site you are building.

    Please say it isn't so?

    LOTRO is already so far behind other games when it comes to meta-game and offline interaction with the game.

    Lorebook is gone too?...

    Oh dear
    Again, I have to agree. The original site upgrade sent many in the community running for the doors. Now with all of this other stuff going away what community is there going to be left? Now there will be even less reason to toil with this site. I am starting to think that my forums days are coming to an end. I've tried to stick it out but Turbine does not make it easy sometimes. How can other game-sites manage these types of features if they are so troublesome?

    PS Of course as I was submitting this reply I was auto logged out.
    Jeffaman-Guarding Hobbit Jeffro-Burgling Hobbit Tinulaurien-Elf Lore Master Cephus-Champion of Men Lilnooblet-Hunting Hobbit Jeffrandir-Snooty Elf Rune-keeper- All of Brandywine
    Long live the halflings! Praise them with great praise!
    RIP Nidor - Brandywine's bravest warrior


  9. #109
    first disclaimer: I know nothing John Snow...er about Lua.

    For PVMP leaderboards I would guess, that some very bright Lua programmer is going to use Combat Analysis type Lua Code to drive a report to some 3d party server. On that server the data logs will all be merged and a new Combat Gear Score and PVMP Scorecard will be done.

    iirc. There was a lot of discussion early on in Lua forums about the partition and security of the data logs. I would guess either <they> will find a way to merge or break the security on the logs. Especially if you volunteer to upload your log files to such a site.

    PVMP and Alt-Finder will still find a way to re-emerge.

    I'd looking forward to both, but I don't use Plugins....
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  10. #110
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    Leaderboards , kin and char information and lorebook, just because some players have some problems with the forum?
    /unsigned

    its a slap in the face of PvP comunity, without dailystats and without ways to know who is farming rank. Bad move Turbine, bad move.
    "[...] I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: [...]"

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    PvMP statistics are not the part I'm going to miss, glff will be a much more peaceful place.
    I agree with almost you post Crell, you always get to the point and write well, but say that without PvMP statistics the GLFF will be a more peacefull place? The ONLY problem at GLFF is the trolls, and with or without dailystats they'll continue there trolling and disturbing everyone.

    Some dont use dailystats, but for who PvP it's a toll of great value, and Turbine are just removing tools from the forum. The most sad thing is that the forum problems can be solved without removing tools, but i guess they prefer take away things from the players than spend some money to give us a nice forum.
    "[...] I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: [...]"

  12. #112
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    Jun 2011
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    246
    Personally I don't care about ettens ( but i do understand why they want numerical data for their tables) but to answer the question above - I don't believe lua is ever going to be able to do the ettens stats that the pvpers are talking about as LUA deals with direct characer interaction with the game and a) is currently unable to look at primary charactor data ( saves stats and pvp bit etc) and b )only works for the charactor that is logged in and only to that computer.

    Currently all stats for them are taken from data.lotro
    each day their db server asks data.lotro for one line of data from every charactor
    their servers then rank it and use a basic formulae to flag any charactors who have suddenly increased a lot

    the data line is this simple
    Sample
    -pvmp ratingPoints="791" gloryPoints="30794" gloryRank="5" -

    You also have to remember that LUA is not supported by turbine ( its a pet project) and "beta" so can be withdrawn as quickly as the datastream has been -

    For normal players there may be a solution . Lua can save some limited data ( inventory / bank / shared ) to your local drive - it is possible to then parse this data offline - but worn items deed and all the important data isnt available ( even level isnt)
    Last edited by NinjaGranny; Apr 26 2013 at 09:20 PM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaGranny View Post
    Currently all stats for them are taken from data.lotro
    each day their db server asks data.lotro for one line of data from every charactor
    their servers then rank it and use a basic formulae to flag any charactors who have suddenly increased a lot
    Actually this is incorrect and not how PvMP stats are gathered.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by karnage320 View Post
    PvMP Leaderboards are being discontinued? Leaderboards are an integral part of any PvP community and can add a competitive element server wide. Granted, rank isn't really what it used to be, but this is a pretty significant loss to PvMP.

    There are several non-Turbine websites that are based almost entirely on the leaderboard data. Surely there must be some way to make that data available after the website changes.
    Well said...and this has got to be a mistake...I can't imagine the creative minds at Turbine are even capable of damaging their base with a move like removing leaderboards and wiping out what we've hard earned over several years...this just has to be a misunderstanding....

    I guess I will have to reread this thread when I am less sleepy in the event Sapience already addressed this insanity.

    Good Hunting,

    Ell
    Ellouhollia - R13 - Hunter (BW) | Ellou - R10 - Guardian (BW) | Slye - R10 - Burglar (CH) | Borialys - R8 - Minstrel (BW)
    Freepstalker - R8 - Stalker (CH) | Freepstalker - R7 - Stalker (BW) | Allwrong - R7 - Warleader (BW)

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellouhollia View Post
    Well said...and this has got to be a mistake...I can't imagine the creative minds at Turbine are even capable of damaging their base with a move like removing leaderboards and wiping out what we've hard earned over several years...this just has to be a misunderstanding....

    I guess I will have to reread this thread when I am less sleepy in the event Sapience already addressed this insanity.

    Good Hunting,

    Ell
    Woh...i just read through this again...are you kidding Sapience? I think Executive Management needs to have a look at this decision...it's off the chart......................... ..............
    Ellouhollia - R13 - Hunter (BW) | Ellou - R10 - Guardian (BW) | Slye - R10 - Burglar (CH) | Borialys - R8 - Minstrel (BW)
    Freepstalker - R8 - Stalker (CH) | Freepstalker - R7 - Stalker (BW) | Allwrong - R7 - Warleader (BW)

  16. #116
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    The whole point of PvMP is to compete. Whether that is with your pals, against your pals or anyone else. Its integral to this that you can see the results of your play in this way and this is why, imo, leaderboards are essential. It provides incentive to play. If you can no longer see who you want to beat, or who is beating you, I would honestly probably not play as often as I do.

    Are there any future plans to have a leaderboard of some description?
    [url=http://www.siglaunch.com/sigs/index.php][img]http://www.siglaunch.com/sigs/wsiga.php/5668936TsVpp.png[/img][/url]
    Rank 12 Warleader, Flaprat Rank 11 Reaver, various other ones i'm useless at...

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonaith View Post
    Leaderboards , kin and char information and lorebook, just because some players have some problems with the forum?
    /unsigned
    It's not the forum. Forum is working fine and fast, if you are not logged in.

    The problems coming from the MyLotro part of the community site.
    Wer Hilfe will, muss Informationen liefern.
    >> Lotro World transfer status <<

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Character and guild data will be discontinued. Please note that this will also impact any systems that rely on character data including PVMP leaderboards, Character Signatures, and API functionality (data.lotro.com).
    No more PVMP leaderboards????

  19. #119
    Question: If someone is banned from the community sites, is there any way to salvage any of their guides/articles/blogs, perhaps via a third party? Or are they simply going to be lost?
    [CENTER][FONT=verdana][I][SIZE=3]Shyma of Elendilmir[/SIZE][/I][/FONT][/CENTER]

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffor View Post
    Yes this is a very poor move. PVMPers have to wait patiently for every added feature and update and this seems like a slap in the face. Leaderboards are exactly the kind of thing that PVP fans like and look forward to.

    Bad move. Insensitive move. I don't want to hear about forum performance either because, according to Turbine, only a few posters have any issues. It's almost like a move done out of spite or something because I see no good reason stated for the discontinuation of this service.
    This. And the fact that you won't even respond to any PvP replies in this thread is even more telling. Honestly, you really are making it easier and easier for more and more pvp players (MANY OF WHOM PAY SUBSCRIPTIONS JUST FOR PVP) to leave and never look back.
    High Chieftain Dafromanx - Blackarrow
    Third Marshal Cillidellan - Elf Guardian
    If you just do stuff, and nothing happens... what does it all mean? What's the point?

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Character and guild data will be discontinued. Please note that this will also impact any systems that rely on character data including PVMP leaderboards, Character Signatures, and API functionality (data.lotro.com)
    I can't speak for other websites, but this is going to totally break a very large portion of my kingship's website. I suspect many others as well.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000001d4a9/01006/signature.png]Sandriell[/charsig]
    [B]Characters[/B]: [URL="http://www.thepalantiri.net/index.php?action=viewchar;ci=346"][B][COLOR=#f0d780]Sandriell[/COLOR][/B][/URL], [URL="http://www.thepalantiri.net/index.php?action=viewchar;ci=348"][COLOR=#f0d780]Alamanda[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.thepalantiri.net/index.php?action=viewchar;ci=638"][COLOR=#f0d780]Cridhe[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.thepalantiri.net/index.php?action=viewchar;ci=685"][COLOR=#f0d780]Ilsasaire[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.thepalantiri.net/index.php?action=viewchar;ci=349"][COLOR=#f0d780]Jocie[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.thepalantiri.net/index.php?action=viewchar;ci=347"][COLOR=#f0d780]Mirielle[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.thepalantiri.net/index.php?action=viewchar;ci=350"][COLOR=#f0d780]Pensee[/COLOR][/URL]
    [URL]http://www.thepalantiri.net[/URL]
    [URL]http://www.kwl.guildportal.com[/URL]

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Tawel View Post
    XML that stores images, really? Not without converting them to Base64 it isn't, which translates to a potential monster file depending on the number of images. I don't have a blog here so I can't say for sure where blog images are being stored, locally or if they make you upload to a third party site, but my suggestion would be to backup all the images used in your blogs. Just saying.
    Without reading through this whole thread I would imagine that their devs or whoever's consulting on this has already addressed this issue. Very possible that there are image links in the file pointing to wherever the content is being migrated to or any number of other solutions. If not then... Yeah rofl good times, not that I use any of that stuff anyway
    [IMG]http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJyGo-SZc0hXT4WIMVUwaxkpPkPKhookGmg6I2IYYigLfDfDVnC0sBcCQ[/IMG]

  23. #123
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    Lorebook was a pain .. thank god will be gone soon.

  24. #124
    Wow. As terrible and sad as I think this is, I really am not surprised. Ever since the RoI fiasco, I've mentally separated the content developers and the PR/Executive teams. I still love the content, but as for things not in game or business related, the worst decisions I've ever seen from a company come out of this one. Whether it be the RoR pricing, instances, RoI instances, and now this, I just don't get the logic. We know how well the first 3 worked out, how do you think this will?

    I don't think anybody thought we'd have to give up our (well earned) reputation, invaluable data for characters and guilds, the lorebook, and more just for improved performance. But, like I said, in light of other decisions, it's not shocking. I'm just going to shake my head in disapproval and see how this turns out.
    [b]The thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.” - J.R.R. Tolkien[/b]

  25. #125
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    376
    PLEASE do NOT take away the Leaderboards!!!! It's something that people love to look at. I know that with the current change to PvP and rank sometimes means nothing towards one's skill, it still is fun for people to look at. It drives people to work harder to pass people up on the Leaderboards. It's fun seeing your name go higher and pass people that you know. Especially for those people who are lower rank. I don't care if the format of the forums get a revamp, but just don't take away the Leaderboards!

 

 
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