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  1. #1

    FttLM Jangovar Warriors: Exploitable Bug, or WaI?

    Title says it all, damage from these guys can almost completely be ignored in a way that seems pretty broken to me. Can we have some confirmation that they are indeed not working correctly?

  2. #2
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    I`ve said it in the other thread a couple of days ago:

    I hope this is WAI not because I want easymode, but I beleive they have not fixed this major "bug" after having the raid down for 3 Weeks+ it must be WAI from Turbine.

    The warriors did the same thing before they took it down. They patched the raid, and they still do the same thing.
    I assume 95% who finished t2 so far have done it this way.
    I tend to think to myself, that the warriors are in such a rage that they just swing their weapons furiesly ^^.

  3. #3
    I don't really care much about if its Exploit or WaI, I always adapt to what I see and what helps to reach the goal.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deinok View Post
    I don't really care much about if its Exploit or WaI, I always adapt to what I see and what helps to reach the goal.
    Well that is the point. As long as no one tells us that this is an exploit I consider it as WAI.
    This has been bugged by many players during BR testing. After release during the short time the raid was up, it was bugged again by some people and the same people have bugged it again after re-release of the raid.

    There is no response from any of the dev's nor is it in the known issues thread. So I beleive it is WAI.
    Specially in normal circumstances no one would tell you if there is a certain explot because turbine does not want to encourage people using this exploit before that can apply a hotfix.
    In our specific case everyone knows this "bug" exist once he runs the instance only once so they could really tell us if this is a bug or not.
    Last edited by Lebouwski; Apr 22 2013 at 05:49 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Title says it all, damage from these guys can almost completely be ignored in a way that seems pretty broken to me. Can we have some confirmation that they are indeed not working correctly?
    It is clearly a bug. The warriors are standing there swinging their swords at thin air and not applying their debuff. Consider it a small compensation for how over-tuned the CM is (of Fire and Frost v1.0 proportions). Exactly how it made it into the build after it was taken down is .. well ..

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Deinok View Post
    I don't really care much about if its Exploit or WaI, I always adapt to what I see and what helps to reach the goal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebouwski View Post
    Well that is the point. As long as no one tells us that this is an exploit I consider it as WAI.
    This has been bugged by many players during BR testing. After release during the short time the raid was up, it was bugged again by some people and the same people have bugged it again after re-release of the raid.

    There is no response from any of the dev's nor is it in the known issues thread. So I beleive it is WAI.
    Specially in normal circumstances no one would tell you if there is a certain explot because turbine does not want to encourage people using this exploit before that can apply a hotfix.
    In our specific case everyone knows this "bug" exist once he runs the instance only once so they could really tell us if this is a bug or not.
    Killing Saruman in Phase 3 was considered a bug by Devs and while they clearly stated it wasn't an exploit since it was a problem in their design to beat it via that method, they fixed it and the 'community' refused to accept phase 3 kills as legitimate. I'm not going to pretend Flight t2 is close to the challenge of Saruman t2, especially before it was detuned, or that raid progression is much of a big deal with this Erebor content (not that it really was in the past either), but there is a long history of bugged/not wai raid content in this game, and this particular one seems to be being treated differently than door exploits, hips exploits, p3 saruman, etc, etc., as illustrated by the above posters.

    Quote Originally Posted by wasteland View Post
    It is clearly a bug. The warriors are standing there swinging their swords at thin air and not applying their debuff. Consider it a small compensation for how over-tuned the CM is (of Fire and Frost v1.0 proportions). Exactly how it made it into the build after it was taken down is .. well ..
    While we haven't made any attempts at T2C yet, I'm certainly not ready to call it anywhere near the level that F&F 1.0 was at in terms of capacity to complete. I'd say our group can handle 50% of the possible group makeups in under 60 seconds if we had to right now, and myself or either of our other tanks that are in their with me have never meaningfully taken advantage of this (there are times when positioning makes it all but impossible NOT to, whether you want to or not). This is a hugely variable fight in that different waves require different strats, and present almost no challenge all the way up to some that present significant challenge. Get a run where the majority of pulls are 'easy' groups and I really don't think challenge mode is that bad, get one with many 'hard' pulls, and its probably impossible.

    I too think they are clearly bugged. I started this thread to both get a sense of where the community stood in terms of treating the warriors as they currently work, and in hopes of drawing more attention to what seems like an obvious bug to me in hopes that we get a Dev response and more importantly, a fix in the works.

    Maybe a video clearly showing how wonky their AI works right now would better draw attention to this, or at least make it so everyone can easy-mode through t2 if that's how it is intended....

  7. #7
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    What precisely is the bug?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakiami View Post
    What precisely is the bug?
    If the warriors target is within melee radius, they will not move or reposition, regardless of whether they are facing their target.

    As a tank, this means I can hit them with threat, run straight through them, and stand behind them hitting them with threat/dps/whatever and take no damage, not receive their incoming healing debuff, etc. So long as you stay within thier melee radius (about 7-10m i'd guess) they will NEVER move to face you.

    These are the only mobs that actually require a genuine tank, other than the hordes of battle-cats on summoner heavy pulls (everything else is either enraged, or hits like a kitten). It would be fairly trivial for say a full dps champ to tag all the warriors with raging to aggro them all, and simply step behind them. Voila, fervour champ is tanking the only hard-hitting mobs (berzerker aside) while taking no damage.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    While we haven't made any attempts at T2C yet, I'm certainly not ready to call it anywhere near the level that F&F 1.0 was at in terms of capacity to complete. I'd say our group can handle 50% of the possible group makeups in under 60 seconds if we had to right now, and myself or either of our other tanks that are in their with me have never meaningfully taken advantage of this (there are times when positioning makes it all but impossible NOT to, whether you want to or not). This is a hugely variable fight in that different waves require different strats, and present almost no challenge all the way up to some that present significant challenge. Get a run where the majority of pulls are 'easy' groups and I really don't think challenge mode is that bad, get one with many 'hard' pulls, and its probably impossible.
    I would say to you that you do not fully understand the mechanics behind the challenge mode of this fight. While it is pretty simple to handle each wave independently within 60 seconds, the difficulty in T2C isn't in how quickly you can kill a wave, but in how quickly you can react to each wave and reach a stable point of total control. I do not feel this fight is over tuned in the same way Fire and Frost t2c was initially, as that was purely a numbers thing, but would definitely feel comfortable comparing it to Saruman t2c in that luck is simply too much of a factor the way it is right now. When you start working on challenge and develop an understanding for exactly how the waves spawn, then you will start to get a better idea of exactly how devilish this fight is. It looks very straight forward once you figure out t2, and our kin also thought that t2c would be a pretty straight forward extrapolation of a t2 strategy, but quite simply, it isn't.

    I will add my personal 2 cents and say that initially as we developed an understanding of T2, I felt extremely dirty standing behind the warriors as one of our tanks. Now after working on challenge quite a bit, I feel like it's almost a necessity to have a reasonable shot at beating it. If it is not WAI, then I honestly don't feel that this challenge mode is beatable with the way the rest of the mechanics currently work. Take that for what you will.

  10. #10
    I've sent a PM to 4 different developers, tried communication through multiple testing servers and bug reports. Researched the forums and debated heavily about this with multiple people in and out of my kin.

    I've come to the conclusion that:

    A) Turbine has no interest in responding, this is the first time despite how unresponsive they are that I have been unable to conjure up an answer about a mechanic and if it is working correctly.

    B) First off, when you see this on a regular T2 run it does seem dirty. For this reason I argued that it was an exploit because it was easy and an illogical mechanic. However, after further exploration of challenge it begins to make sense. The explanation for that is simply that in the intensity of challenge turning them around is not a situation where the guard sits there for 60 seconds and feels dirty rather it is a fast paced movement with the tank being smart about where he positions, how he moves when he moves. Also the raid has to be alert as to not run into that area of death.

    It was this way before the fix, after the fix and it works 100% of the time. This may not be the way Turbine planned it, but it IS the way it works, and seeing as it works 100% of the time it is not exactly "buggy". For this reason and after my exploration of the mechanic on extensive T2C practice I will consider this WAI until told otherwise by the silent developer team.

  11. #11
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    I mean it does feel dirty... But how would we tank warriors otherwise on t2? Their damage buff stacks up to such an obscene level I've had to move them towards the end of a wave (on t2) and basically got 1-shot by them as they hit me while I was running
    through them.

    Also this is in the same caliber of exploitable bug as... single tanking the lightning troll. Found certain spots on the floor that wouldn't electrify til the end of raid so could just stand still for ez farming. A little different than killing saruman (t2) on phase 3 where you bypass the 2 hardest phases of the raid... Some purists might not want to do it, but given the difficulty of CM currently I don't have any issues with it. I also feel like, it kind of locks your tank into a spot that he's not willing to move from because if he turns those warriors they might start one-shotting people.

    Anyway... Good luck to y'all on CM. Waiting for you guys to beat it so I have some hope.

  12. #12
    Has there been any official word on this from Turbine?

    It would be nice to know if this is really how Turbine wanted it to be or not. As already stated, it seems way too easy for this to really be the case...

  13. #13
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    I know for a fact they looked at this instance for U11 changes, so if the Jangover warriors are functioning the same 100% of the time I would say it's WAI.
    Beastwise ~ R15 Captain | Beastnas ~ R11 Hunter | Beastfang ~ R11 Warg | Doctorbeast ~ R10 Defiler

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Beastnas View Post
    I know for a fact they looked at this instance for U11 changes, so if the Jangover warriors are functioning the same 100% of the time I would say it's WAI.
    Yet they won't confirm it if this is WAI, which is weird. Personally I think something else, but I don't want to add to the guessing etc. We cannot say whether it's WAI or not. All we know is it's strange to us and devs don't want to confirm or not.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Aineas. View Post
    Yet they won't confirm it if this is WAI, which is weird.
    I agree. Call me a "purist" if you will, but I prefer completing the instance without leveraging any exploit or bug in the run.

    Similarly to everyone in this thread, I'm not sure what this "trick" (for lack of a better word) is, a strategy or an unintended behavior. I admit: i'm inclined to say the latter because I have never seen any other mob behave like these warriors. However, like DuneBug said above, given the difficulty of T2C perhaps Turbine sees it as unintended (but acceptable) behavior.

    It does not help that Turbine does not acknowledge exploits until they are patched either..

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    First off, when you see this on a regular T2 run it does seem dirty. For this reason I argued that it was an exploit because it was easy and an illogical mechanic. However, after further exploration of challenge it begins to make sense. The explanation for that is simply that in the intensity of challenge turning them around is not a situation where the guard sits there for 60 seconds and feels dirty rather it is a fast paced movement with the tank being smart about where he positions, how he moves when he moves. Also the raid has to be alert as to not run into that area of death.

    It was this way before the fix, after the fix and it works 100% of the time. This may not be the way Turbine planned it, but it IS the way it works, and seeing as it works 100% of the time it is not exactly "buggy". For this reason and after my exploration of the mechanic on extensive T2C practice I will consider this WAI until told otherwise by the silent developer team.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beastnas View Post
    I know for a fact they looked at this instance for U11 changes, so if the Jangover warriors are functioning the same 100% of the time I would say it's WAI.
    I agree with this. I wouldn't leave it past Turbine to not fix a bug the first time, but a couple hotfixes and updates have been done with no change to this 'mechanic' or 'trick' or whatever we want to call it.

    The fact that Turbine took down instances like School (or Library, whichever one was being exploited) as well as removed the exploitable bug from Glinghant makes me wonder, why wouldn't they 'fix' this too?

    Needless to say, an official response from Turbine would put an end to this debate, but I wouldn't hold my breath, guys.

  17. #17
    The CSMs/Devs are very quick to lock threads and delete posts that talk about exploits. Considering this thread has been up for a month with a description of the questioned behavior with no deletions or being locked and moved suggests that it's intended behavior for the Warriors or at least acceptable behavior and Turbine simply has nothing to add to the topic.

  18. #18
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    As I see it, Challenge wouldn't be possible without this mechanic. T2 and T2C are two completely different beasts when it comes to FttLM, and even if I can't really say I've worked very much on T2C, I've done enough tries to know that there is no way I could tank T2C if the Warriors constantly applied their debuffs

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmacman View Post
    It would be nice to know if this is really how Turbine wanted it to be or not. As already stated, it seems way too easy for this to really be the case...
    If it is so easy, why has no kinship completed T2C yet?

 

 

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