We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Is it worth it?

  1. #1

    Is it worth it?

    After taking a break from playing my warden for quite some time, I've now gotten all the combo gambit builders (spear+spear, spear+shield, etc...). I'm starting to realize the class is going to get a lot more complex and it's probably going to feel awkward actually using my setup, which is 1-3 for the single gambit builders, then my combo builders are Shift+1-3, Q E R, Z X C. It's the only way I really see getting all my gambits on my keyboard in a way that slightly makes sense.

    I had no problem memorizing my gambits before and keeping my buffs up and such. So I guess it's possible that I could learn the new keys and build gambits with the combos competently... But would memorizing every combination of those 12 keys just to use 80% of my abilities really be worth it in the end? How does warden stack up with other classes, because it seems like something with such a high barrier to entry and complex as it is should be able to harvest the fruits of their labor and preform above and beyond the competition. Is a good warden who is able to do their job, keep up their buffs, anticipate what they need, and just overall play good highly sought after, or do they end up just being comparable to other easier to play classes that can play competently.

    Not trying to bash any other classes or anything I'm just wondering. Really starting to seem like the extra complexity is there just for people who really want it, and not because it ends up being a more powerful class when played properly

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    8,694
    I typically did those with the mouse. In most of my characters, skills to the left are done typing with left hand, skills to the right are with the mouse.

    For the new gambit builders I often find myself thinking about them where as the basic set are hard wired in my brain, so often I'm actually looking at the skill bar when I use them making the use of the mouse more practical.

  3. #3
    Yep definitely worth working to learn gambits with masteries if you want to use your warden. Its hard to be a casual warden. Just like I find it hard to be a casual Cappy....poor Piccy is still stuck in moria

    But you'll soon work out a rotation of gambits that works for you and that's all you have to remember. Maybe one tanking rotation, and one DPS rotation either melee or ranged which ever you prefer.

    Everyone now and then you'll need to look up a gambit you don't use much.
    "When I want your opinion, I'll read your entrails"
    - Worf has Spoken!

    Worfie - Warden

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    1,477
    Yeah, a well-played warden is an excellent addition to a group.

    I'm very much in favor of learning to use masteries effectively, preferably by keybinding them (it's simply faster than click click clicking, though obviously clickers get their jobs done as well).

    When you get to this point, learn and use masteries in a single target tanking rotation to maximize buff and HoT uptimes while mixing in threat. Learn a good DPS rotation using masteries if you roll that way. But, most importantly for tanks learn all the possible combinations of your big threat skills, 'cause you need to fall back on muscle memory and a quick glance at your mastery cooldowns in order to react to things like adds spawning/being pulled.

    I used to use a mouse with a M4 and M5 button on the left side of the mouse, where my thumb rested. I assigned 3 masteries to each of those using those buttons and ctrl or alt to modify them. Had two more masteries as 5 & 6 and Alt+M3.

    Now I have a mouse with a number-pad on the side, so I have my nine masteries as the combinations of blank/ctrl/alt + Numpad 1/2/3.

    Mouse buttons are nifty. Would be a good gaming investment to get a mouse with those if you are able, not just a warden investment.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Apr 16 2013 at 12:40 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000363f98/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Rechart, Warden
    [url="http://platemetaljacket.blogspot.com/"]Plate Metal Jacket[/url]

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Worfie View Post
    Yep definitely worth working to learn gambits with masteries if you want to use your warden. Its hard to be a casual warden. Just like I find it hard to be a casual Cappy....poor Piccy is still stuck in moria

    But you'll soon work out a rotation of gambits that works for you and that's all you have to remember. Maybe one tanking rotation, and one DPS rotation either melee or ranged which ever you prefer.

    Everyone now and then you'll need to look up a gambit you don't use much.
    Sure it's worth to learn if I'm only going to play warden, but I'm just asking like, am I really getting that much more tanking ability than a guardian or something like that? Is the extra competence required to play a warden adequately allow me to ultimately be more powerful than the competing classes, or just bring me to even terms?

    I heavily enjoy the gambit system, it's really fun to use but I think the mysteries really complicate a system that's already a bit more complicated than the standard system. If they had just thrown in another type of basic gambit or two that'd be one thing, but the extra 9 buttons to bind, that can't be freely bound willy nilly like other simple skills is a real drag. I don't really have a problem memorizing the gambits, it's just a control issue really, and memorizing what button does what basic gambit combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    Yeah, a well-played warden is an excellent addition to a group.

    I'm very much in favor of learning to use masteries effectively, preferably by keybinding them (it's simply faster than click click clicking, though obviously clickers get their jobs done as well).

    When you get to this point, learn and use masteries in a single target tanking rotation to maximize buff and HoT uptimes while mixing in threat. Learn a good DPS rotation using masteries if you roll that way. But, most importantly for tanks learn all the possible combinations of your big threat skills, 'cause you need to fall back on muscle memory and a quick glance at your mastery cooldowns in order to react to things like adds spawning/being pulled.

    I used to use a mouse with a M4 and M5 button on the left side of the mouse, where my thumb rested. I assigned 3 masteries to each of those using those buttons and ctrl or alt to modify them. Had two more masteries as 5 & 6 and Alt+M3.

    Now I have a mouse with a number-pad on the side, so I have my nine masteries as the combinations of blank/ctrl/alt + Numpad 1/2/3.

    Mouse buttons are nifty. Would be a good gaming investment to get a mouse with those if you are able, not just a warden investment.
    I also have a mouse with 2 buttons on the side, so I started thinking about that too just now before I read your post. I think I'll kind of do what you did... Essentially binding my keys so when I press 1-3 with my forward mouse button pressed, it will basically just add a spear onto the end of what ever basic gambit I pressed, then have my back button put a shield on the end, and the middle mouse button put a fist on the end. Should be many times easier to remember.

    Still wishing they had done away with the masteries though and just had a 4th basic gambit or something else to make it more complex. If they still wanted to speed up gambit building they could've just reduced the GCD or paired the basic gambits together when they were queued up to be used. It's just adding hassle for the sake of it the way it currently is. I like difficult to play classes, it's why I chose warden, I just think the masteries was the wrong way to do it. Got to live with it I guess...
    Last edited by Death-Ranger610; Apr 16 2013 at 01:53 AM.

  6. #6

    I think the answer you are looking for is...

    No. Being a master Warden will not really put you head and shoulders above everyone else in group content. Any well played Guard will be just as effective a tank in any past, current or future content. Its just the nature of the game.

    There are a few things that do separate a warden though

    1) The Gambit system itself. It is unique. I haven't seen anything as exciting as Gambits in any other game on any other class. They're not spells or skills or magic or anything else. They are pure fighting moves which you chain together to increased effect.
    2) Unmatched solo abilities. Arguably the game is fairly easy on the solo content these days but on my Warden I can create challenges for myself by over-pulling and pushing all my skills to survive, often red-lining down to 100 morale before pulling back again. I find those "stunts" to be the best "rushes" in the game :-)
    3) Flexibility - Its the only class that has effective Tank + Melee + Ranged and can switch between the three smoothly (at times without even needing to retrait). I remember doing some slayer deeds and trying to figure out how many different ways I can kill stuff. There might be numerically optimal rotations but there are endless ways to achieve your goal without the hum-drum of repetition if you want to avoid it.

    I guess those are my top 3 for favouring Warden above all else. But my original answer stands. If you just want to be able to tank group content then a Guard will be exactly as effective and much easier to handle.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/202240000000e2f5a/01002/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Death-Ranger610 View Post
    After taking a break from playing my warden for quite some time, I've now gotten all the combo gambit builders (spear+spear, spear+shield, etc...). I'm starting to realize the class is going to get a lot more complex and it's probably going to feel awkward actually using my setup, which is 1-3 for the single gambit builders, then my combo builders are Shift+1-3, Q E R, Z X C. It's the only way I really see getting all my gambits on my keyboard in a way that slightly makes sense.
    I have my gambit builders, including the masteries, bound to the nummeric key-pad. 1-3 for the basic ones, 4-9 for the masteries, 0 for gambit execution and num-enter to execute BM. It leaves me the Q and E buttons to strave left and right while still building my next gambit. The other keys can be assigned where I have bound them to certain javelin skills.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2b2250000000156e5/01004/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenstride View Post
    ...snip....
    Sorry for Off-Topic, but i have to say:

    COME BACK RAVEN!

    Hope to see you ingame soon
    [COLOR=#ff0000][B] Polaris / Nazdar / Furia[/B]
    [/COLOR][COLOR=#00ff00]Gorgonite Captain R9/Jinzo Champion R4/Donato RK R8/Kalira Hunter R6/Tempico Minstrel R3/ Athalmir Warden R7[/COLOR] [COLOR=#ffa500] ... and [/COLOR][COLOR=#ffa500]6 Creeps r10 - r11[/COLOR]

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgonites View Post
    Sorry for Off-Topic, but i have to say:

    COME BACK RAVEN!

    Hope to see you ingame soon
    Thanks Kai

    Maybe you will....
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/202240000000e2f5a/01002/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    1,477
    It's not as simple as saying [good warden > good guard] or [good warden = good guard]. Qualifiers need to be added to those. Why? Because we tank differently.

    For tanking, guard defensive abilities--namely mitigation and avoidance--scale with enemy damage. Whether it be a fire-throwing goblin or a balrog, if either hits the guard for fire damage, he will knock off 70% of that damage (if his mits are capped), mitigating say 700 and 7000 damage respectively. That's what I mean by scaling, the Taken-DPS or TPS going by what CombatAnalysis denotes it as scales. Avoidance works the same way, with finesse mucking it up a bit.

    Wardens of course have mitigations and avoidance, and of course those aspects of our tanking scale with critters too. Our TPS prevented scales with how much DPS the enemy is doing. But we self-heal too, HPS to cover up for TPS we take (I can't say if we take more TPS than Guards do or not. I've seen in BfE T2's done by us and heard from Shock & Awe's Warden the warden take less damage than the guard, but in both cases Fire-lore was on the Warden's troll. I reckon if that were not the case the Warden woulda taken more damage, but also in both cases I feel certain [Warden TPS/0.7 - self HPS < Guard TPS - {CaB + WH}]. Obviously that observation ignores the danger of spike damage that threatens Wardens more than Guards, so take it in context.)

    Here I come to my point. HPS does not scale with how hard a mob hits. The more damage an enemy does, the less the HPS is in comparison to the damage taken, because the damage taken grows with mob difficulty and the heals stay basically constant with maybe some slight boosts from raid buffs. How did the devs balance this? Wardens and Guards can only be balanced at one degree of difficulty or lets say one range of damage taken (high, medium, low, etc) because we don't simply multiply incoming damage by some numbers that stay the same in different circumstances in order to stay alive. If we're balanced for hard raids, we're more powerful than guards for lesser content. Period. Looks like that's where we are based on my end-game experience. Balanced for the hard stuff: that part kinda jives with what Raven's trying to say about wardens being about equal to guards (am I right in taking you for a ToO T2C raider, from which comes your perspective, Raven?). In terms of tanking survivability, we simply have the capacity to be better than guards for GB, Fornost, Annuminas, Sch/Lib, HoN, IoF, ITA dungeons, DG instances. I reckon it's arguable for the T1 raids.

    In all of the above I assume equally skilled warden and guard, however that's determined.

    As for DPS, depends on the player. There's a lot of folks out there playing DPS that can get out gunned by a Warden, single-target.
    Last edited by Omen_Kaizer; Apr 16 2013 at 06:08 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000363f98/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    Rechart, Warden
    [url="http://platemetaljacket.blogspot.com/"]Plate Metal Jacket[/url]

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Omen_Kaizer View Post
    (am I right in taking you for a ToO T2C raider, from which comes your perspective, Raven?).
    I've main tanked on-level every raid from MoM up to, though excluding, RoR. So, yes, my most recent experience is ToO T2C. Every couple of years I take a breather from the game

    I fully agree with your analysis above. For the easy content we are likely superior to other tanks due to being balanced for hard content. However, seeing as how T1, some T2 and other group content is fairly straight-forward it is an irrelevant "advantage" in most cases. Hence my opinion that Tanking on a Guard is just as effective as on a Warden though, from what I understand, less complicated.
    Last edited by Ravenstride; Apr 17 2013 at 03:46 AM. Reason: grammar
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/202240000000e2f5a/01002/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  12. #12
    For me the difference is not how effective we are, but how much fun we have doing it.

    Personally I LOVED the mines of moria before we had shiny tools like never surrender, battle prep, gambit builder buffs, no EoB faceroll aggro etc.

    I knew I had to work HARD to be a good tank, and that gave me much more satisfaction than just pressing a few buttons every now and then to stay on top of the aggro. Every fight took all of my concentration, every fight was a challenge, and every fight was sooooo much fun even in 3-6 mans.

    Now as we have been beefed up a bit in the last few updates and given new tools to keep up with the Guards for end game raiding, we are just rediculous in the lower end content. For most 6 mans a well played warden can play the role of healer and tank at the same time, keeping the group up with conviction, allowing for more DPS and faster runs.

    On the harder stuff through, a poorly played warden who doesn't understand all the gambits and know how to keep his buffs up and maintain aggro is going to struggle.

    In short - if you like a challenge and thrive off it the warden is for you. If you want to faceroll tank, get a guardian.

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload